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Tim Fulton 00:08
Welcome to the confluence cast presented by Columbus underground. We are a weekly Columbus centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment and people of our city. I’m your host, Tim Fulton. This week, can a city that doesn’t know its history properly tell its own story. I sat down with Columbus underground staffers, Walker Evans and Susan posts to discuss what’s been going on in the capitol city. We talked about the upcoming election, new and upcoming restaurants, the relevance of history in reporting and the city’s changing retail landscape. You get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at the confluence cast.com. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Walker Evans, the co founder and editor in chief of Columbus underground, and Susan posts, the associate editor of Columbus underground, guys, how are you?
Walker Evans 01:06
Doing? Well, very good. Good. Yeah,
Tim Fulton 01:08
we are coming off of the barrage of political interviews, the 12 city council candidates and the two mayoral candidates, I want to thank the First of all the listeners for sitting through some of them. And also invite anybody who hasn’t listened to, at least specifically the candidate that may represent your district and the two mayoral candidates, I think that there is value in that. Also want to thank you Walker, for the work that you put in to help me get that arranged to have the studio to write the stories that that accompany those interviews,
Walker Evans 01:49
no problem. Yeah, it was it was a lot of fun. And I’m happy that we’re able to have video versions, audio versions, written versions. It sounds like they’ve been pretty well received, you know, listened to and thus far. And probably the day before election, we’ll see another spike when everyone does that last minute research, right? Yeah.
Tim Fulton 02:07
And I will say, at least from the like, the marketing emails I put out just for the you do your own marketing emails, obviously. But the marketing emails I put out, people actually responded and said, like, Hey, this is good. Thank you for doing this. So yeah, some validation, if not, in listener numbers for individual interviews. Yeah. Some validation of
Walker Evans 02:28
value in anecdotally, too, and and I were at gallery hop last weekend, okay. For the first time in a long time, we ran into someone that I think everyone knows Brian Curtis, friend of the show is a friend friend of Columbia, senator o’brien, Curtis. And he said specifically that he has been enjoying listening to all of these interviews with his Columbus city council people. So good. Thank you, Brian.
Tim Fulton 02:48
I will say that Brian has been forced to listen to my voice since I was like 13 years.
Walker Evans 02:52
Yeah. And he still he still loves it. Ag good. Yeah.
Tim Fulton 02:56
Good. Yeah. Good. Susan, what’s going on with you? What’s happening with what’s happening in the city of Columbus?
Susan Post 03:02
I mean, there’s all sorts of things happening. October seems to be the month that everyone wants to open their restaurant, which is really exciting. You know, October, late September, you know, so there’s been a lot of new spots to check out which is always great. So there’s been a lot of like brewery activity going on. You Pouria not quite a brewery but they do have their own like you pour system so you know, you cleverly named right. And I love that their cocktail menu is called we Pouria. So if you order a you know, made bartender made cocktail, we Pouria so, you know, if you’re in the mood to pour your own beer, that’s an option. If underwing also open any former Sideswipe space out on the kind of West Side area, so
Walker Evans 03:48
speaking of old friends, the guy that opened that Jason wing, we’ve known each other since kindergarten, there you go. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. old timey connection.
Tim Fulton 03:56
Back to you. Is that you poor? Yeah, yeah. Back to you. PORIA. They that is actually owned by the gateway or campus partner, or
Susan Post 04:08
so Ben Morgan, who owns Old North arcade. Okay, open that so but it is in the gateway, it’s taken over that big space used to be a world of beer slash district. Pourhouse. So I think it’s great. Great to see something filling in that big space down. Yeah.
Walker Evans 04:22
And a little bit of flavor, I think from Old North arcade as well, because there’s like Christian games scattered throughout games. You can play like an NBA Jam cabinet. Yeah. So it’s not full blown arcades like Old North Arcade is but there’s bits and pieces. Yeah, I
Susan Post 04:38
think it’s gonna be fun spot. Looks like a good spot to chill. Great. Yes. thundering, lots of beer. Good to see a brewery go back in that space. And then north hybrid ranges open another location on Westerville. Okay, so restaurant bar, whole big thing. They’ve got a huge patio actually backs up to one of the Westerville high scale high schools for ball fields okay, I don’t know which one sorry. So you can have a drink and like watch the game from essentially Yeah,
05:07
okay
Susan Post 05:08
yeah and I think he said they’re gonna get rid of the fence in between so you can like literally see the bike trail through there
Tim Fulton 05:18
and is and they got rid of their North High space
Susan Post 05:21
yeah so no longer in short north and they’re kind of calling the Western Wall when their new sort of like flagship location it’s how they’re gonna be moving forward a little bit more suburban restaurant big patio so not forced to change their name not forced to change it and they still have a location on North High the one
Walker Evans 05:41
in Dublin Dublin yeah is Dublin’s High Street.
Tim Fulton 05:44
Yes. Yeah.
Susan Post 05:45
I’m not sure if it’s technically North High in Dublin or if it’s just high
Tim Fulton 05:48
but yeah, someone should write a letter
Susan Post 05:52
but yeah, they’ve been expanding in partnership with CO hatch both of those the the Dublin in Westerville locations so great. Yeah. Beer to Drink. Fox in the snow also open in Dublin. And I mean, if you’ve ever been to Fox in the snow on a weekend morning, you can probably always use more locations of those. So excited to see them keep growing. Actually, this is a one that opens soon. Well, maybe by the time this is out, it’ll be open. Adelaide, it’s a new gin jazz bar. An old north where yeah, for anyone who remembers Alana has food wine. Yeah, going going into that space. So got to check that out recently. And I think it’s gonna be a nice spot. It’ll, it’s a little bit of a interesting location. You know, hopefully, they can kind of pull some of the professors and the Clintonville crowd to that spot.
Tim Fulton 06:40
Same sort of like, I did see pictures of the decor, but as the layout so the same like it’s basically feels like you’re in a house.
Susan Post 06:48
Yeah. And they had been a while since I’ve been in that space. But yeah, they have like some distinctive rooms like there’s a library and then the dining room and the bar and then like kind of another smaller room with a few tables so still has a little bit of that house feel especially on the bar side, you see like the brick wall, going going down the side
Tim Fulton 07:08
of the bar, and I don’t know this who’s opening that.
Susan Post 07:11
So it’s Roderick Polly and Laura Justice. So it’s their first time opening up restaurant.
Walker Evans 07:16
So clearly new folks menu assistance from from
Susan Post 07:20
Tyler Minnis who just opened good friends work Oreos market Italian village angry bear. So yeah, burgeoning scene. Yeah. Exciting. So a lot of other things that should be happening soon, too. Always new stuff to check out.
Tim Fulton 07:36
Okay. And then what else? Have you been spending most your reporting time on?
Susan Post 07:42
What else? Like I don’t know. It’s a blur. It’s always a blur. Really answers. But now we have some fun stuff coming up for spooky season right now. Okay. So we just put up an article about where to go pick, pick a pumpkin with your family. Okay, so seven spots around Central Ohio. So definitely check that out. I’m excited. There’s some I never heard of which I’m like, This is great. You know, you put the pumpkins against each other.
Walker Evans 08:10
And some of our best read articles this year has been the ongoing come get your dead series that Jesse Buffy has been writing about the Old North graveyard excavation. Prepping for the the new development that’s going next to the North Market. New article again, probably out by the time this this episode comes out. But yeah, I think it’s seventh or eighth in the series at this point. So it’s not just like spooky graveyard October sort of thing. Like it’s a really interesting project that’s been going on for years. years at this point. Yeah.
Tim Fulton 08:40
And for folks who listen to the podcast, we interviewed him after I think just right when the second article came? Yes, it was basically just a follow up. And I will say and this is all to his credit, this sort of investigation, and then this work has really spurred me into thinking about what the narrative around. It’s a very side story of it. Right? But what is the narrative of Columbus and what is the what is the story we tell and write Columbus and I will say no other outlet not to be named. I just got a marketing email from them today, which kind of explores other aspects of this story too. So yeah. The the success, the clicks of it, not that that’s always what you write about, but like people want to know more.
Walker Evans 09:32
Yeah. Well, at the beginning, I think we kind of set out Jesse was like, Hey, this is the thing. I’m really interested in what to write about. And we’re like, no one’s gonna read this, but do it because it’s important, and it’s cool. And you’re into it. Yeah. So it’s been nice that people have been reading it very
Susan Post 09:44
interesting. He’s just done a phenomenal job of, you know, coming at it from a lot of different angles and talking to a lot of the folks involved. You just did a interview with Rick Harrison Wolf, who’s the executive director at North Market. So it was kind of interesting to work that perspective in and you know, also talking a little but about how, you know, north market and the parking lot get all the attention because that’s city owned land. But the graveyard is a lot bigger than that. And there’s been a lot of private development in the surrounding areas and what that means and the next article that that’s coming out, I’ll kind of get into that a little bit. It’s with Bucky cut, right, who runs Columbus ghost tours. Okay. So just kind of coming at it from not necessarily like a spooky ghost perspective, but sort of, you know, thinking about how we honor honor the dead and honor the past and, you know, has a interesting angle to bring to that.
Tim Fulton 10:37
Hmm, given the interview with Rick, do we feel like there’s been more sort of like participation in the narrative? Because when the first couple articles came out, right, that there was not a whole lot of cooperation around like, hey, what’s happening? What’s the what’s under those tents? Sure, how many remains are there and like he Jesse had to kind of, he’s Forgive me dig that up himself.
Walker Evans 11:00
Good fun. I think some of that was probably due to the fact that it’s like four or five different groups that are working on this project. And each one has different pieces. And so like, you have the North Market, you have the City of Columbus, you have like the excavation team that was hired, you have the developer, which is like a multi part, you know, like rock bridge, you know, so all these different and they don’t want to speak on behalf of the other group, if they’re not involved with some of those pieces. It’s not like Rick is out there working on digging, right. Yeah. So so he didn’t want to say too much right out of the gate when they had just gotten started, you know, is it fair? Yeah,
Susan Post 11:35
yeah. And I think Jesse has just been relentless, and continuing to follow up with folks and, you know, always looking for new avenues and people to talk to. And, you know, I know, I know, he’s working on a few other things with the series that all kind of help put a better timeline together of everything that’s happened. And so he’s doing doing a great job. And it’s really fascinating to read.
Tim Fulton 11:56
And I have been curious, too, if because we just did that history of Eastland mall episode. And I have sort of this tickler if you will, of like, podcasts ideas. And some of them are around like, hey, how do we tell this like piece of our history? right in? I think it was 91. Forgive me if I get this wrong. There. We had one of the largest hot air balloon accidents ever. Sorry, one of the largest one of the largest hot air balloon accidents in the country, at least for the time
Walker Evans 12:32
since the Hindenburg that
Tim Fulton 12:38
cut that out? No, but it was three very it was for people who pass and it was three very seat well seasoned. Balloon errs. Yeah. And they ran into the 10. TV tower. I don’t I had no idea. It was night like 91. Yeah. And not like super distant history. Exactly. And like, I didn’t know that story until someone was like, Do you ever hear about that thing that happened?
Walker Evans 13:04
To duck mouths? Yeah, exactly.
Tim Fulton 13:07
Yeah. Stuff like that stuff like Columbus’s connection to Billy Milligan. Not that the dispatch doesn’t drag that old carcass out anytime something happens with the Billy Milligan story. But I get that. All that being said, do you see an opportunity to do more invest more time and resources in to telling those stories?
Walker Evans 13:33
Yeah. I mean, Doug moats is a kind of local historian and he writes a series when he has time. And yeah, they’re always really well read. I think people are really interested in that sort of thing.
Susan Post 13:45
Well, I think, in buches article that’s coming out, he kind of talks about that transient nature of Columbus, how there’s so many people that are always coming in that they don’t always know, a lot of the history of the city. And you know, I think that’s talking about how, that’s why this story has really struck a chord with people because people have no idea. People have no idea that used to be a graveyard. And every couple years, you get a whole new batch of people that had no idea. So I do think very much agree with him on that point that there’s always so many new people coming to Columbus that there’s a hunger for those stories. Yeah,
Walker Evans 14:18
yeah. The Eastland mall thing. Makes a nice segue as well, because shortly after the Eastland mall was closed and then you know, announced for demolition and then Westland mall secured the funding like the state funding for the demolition of Westland Mall. Back in February, I wrote sort of an opinion piece of like, you know, we’re talking about these two malls, going away. The new oldest mall now is Tuttle,
Tim Fulton 14:41
right. And I remember you like texting me photos of like, this should be busy, right?
Walker Evans 14:46
Yeah. And it’s, you know, some of it is management. Some of it is sort of the death of some of the big chain retailers like a lot of them, you know, not just during the pandemic, but back into the 2010s kind of started to fold and collapse. apocalypse. Yeah, online shopping just changes in consumer trends. Teenagers don’t go to malls like they used to, because they can hang out with their friends on their phone. So there’s a lot of factors into that. My whole reason for wanting to write the story was, you know, we should probably be talking about this. So we’re not on the hook to tear the thing down in another 10 years like, that really shouldn’t fall on the taxpayers to do and maybe we should start planning for that. I republished that story last week, because Dan Eaton over business first friend of Columbus underground as well. Dan wrote an update that the mall had, because it’s been in receivership for two years, it’s been Oh, I wasn’t aware of that. Exactly. Like a lot of people didn’t know, because totals open. And the man, the court appointed management company for the past few years, was the same company that was running Eastland for the past 15. So they just didn’t know how to do it. They know how to keep the lights on. Yeah. That’s about it. Yeah. So there’s new ownership. They’re all sort of these like, financial firms. They’re not mall operators. They’re like private equity. It’s private equity firms. Yeah. Which doesn’t usually work out well for these kinds of operations. So, so really, you know, Dan, did that update, there wasn’t, we weren’t just gonna, you know, do an update off of his work. But I said, you know, hey, go read business. First story. And here’s the thing that we wrote back in February that gave it a whole new bump in traffic. And people were kind of revisiting this article from back in February. But I brought I bring all this up just to say that when I did that story, and kind of found out that Tuttle was about 30% vacant. I was talking to Mike Beaumont, another friend Columbus underground, who said the name drop? Yeah, we’re dropping all the names. Mike Beaumont was like, he’s like, I think the Short North is probably about 30% vacant too. You should do some about that. And I’m like, I don’t know. Okay. So the one of the reasons and I went to Gallery app last week, and as I haven’t walked the entire length of the short north, back and forth. And we have been the gallery happened a while either. And it was really cold. This facet is like the first cold day, fall. Yeah, we had runny noses when we were done walking the whole, you know, three miles, but took notes and took inventory. And I think the number I landed on was around 15%
Tim Fulton 17:15
vacant. Okay, there’s a couple of very How are you quantifying? Are we saying like, just numbers
Walker Evans 17:19
location? Yes. The same way I did with Tuttle. It’s not based on square footage, because there’s no way for me to really know that. Okay, especially today, because a vacant storefront has like gates rolled down. So it’s not like you can even go in there and take measurements, right. Like, I could probably look up each individual.
Tim Fulton 17:36
challenging your methodology? I just know.
Walker Evans 17:39
Yes, no, but that’s, that’s an important distinction to make. Because a 100 square foot space and 100,000 square foot space, but vacant are two very different things. But some of them are very prominent, like melt went away. And that’s a really big space. And it’s been sitting for a while, the old ROY G BIV, gallery space, that whole bottom storefront of that building, and there’s been like rumors and I think there’s some construction fencing. I’ve seen folks in and out of there. Yeah, so it’s not something’s happening, but things like the old Family Dollar, like, they’re not going to put anything back in that like that’s going to be torn down and redeveloped. So once you start getting into the nuances, some of it and I think even between the time that we went there on Saturday, because the piece of cake left, so that was vacant, so I counted that as vacant. And then Susan just did an update. Yes,
Susan Post 18:26
Piazza Pollino is moving in. So the couple that owns planos pasta, so some of it
Walker Evans 18:31
is just standard retail churn right now. And we’re three years past the pandemic. I mean, 15% vacancy doesn’t seem as insane I don’t think but it is interesting, and I’m gonna publish a piece on my my findings. Yes. And yeah, well, and I would be
Tim Fulton 18:49
interested in what is the number because there’s always going to be vacancy there because sure, for sure, what’s the number where it becomes unhealthy? Right right.
Walker Evans 18:58
So and some of that is about like the retail diversity of the area too because everyone will be moan you know, the loss of an art gallery and the arrival of another bar slash restaurant. But also like what makes money what doesn’t you know? It was interesting to see during gallery hop we were there you know, fairly early six o’clock. A lot of the retail like the boutique clothing stores weren’t even open Hmm They weren’t staying open late which it was also like oh, it used to
Tim Fulton 19:28
be like the argument for gallery happens everybody stays open later
Walker Evans 19:31
Yes. Yeah. But also you know, if you want to go buy an expensive dress from row are you going to do that during gallery when it’s crowded? Are you going to go in on on Wednesday? Right where you can kind of take your time and not feel rushed or anything Yeah,
Tim Fulton 19:44
visit with Marin you know? Yeah. So I
Walker Evans 19:47
mean, I don’t want to get every like we’re gonna drop every single day. Yeah, we we stopped in prolog and talk to Dan. We stopped in pursuit and talk to Nate he they’re gonna set up for their music show. cuz it was it was nice other than being cold and everyone was in no issue here. So you walked by places like town hall and it was just people spilling into the streets. It was that busy. Yes, it’s interesting. It’s it’s the evolving nature. You know, I think everyone sort of is like, Oh, I remember the short north on this one day I in 1998 and that was my favorite memory of the short Northen. Anything ever since is not as good as my personal heyday. But you can find someone in 1998 was like the real short North was 1985. Right. That was, you know what I mean? So it’s like,
Susan Post 20:31
yeah, my friends and I talked about that, in regards to campus, like everyone’s favorite version of campus is always when they were there. And anything that’s changed sense is like, Oh, my God, but
Walker Evans 20:40
also it’s like, yeah, it’s 2002. Yeah. But also, like, if you’re 45, and Bernie’s was still open, would you go? The answer is probably not. Are you? Are you coming from you might be the exception to the rule.
Tim Fulton 20:53
I don’t think I would go to Bernie he’s Yeah, but but like, I
Walker Evans 20:56
have friends who are like, you know, oh, I live in Dublin now. And I missed that old campus bar. And it’s like, if it were still there, it’d be full of 21 year olds, who you want to go hang out with.
Susan Post 21:06
I’m definitely doing that in a few weeks, though. Nice. Good, everyone. I have my my roommates from OSU. A couple of them are coming into town and we are making a Mecca to the beer Stieb. So that was our bar in college and one of your left. Exactly why we’re doing it. So
Walker Evans 21:23
yeah, yeah. I just like that. Some people want to you know, they shake their fist at like, oh, there’s a target on campus now. And it’s like, do you shop at Target? Well, yeah. Okay, then. What’s, I don’t know. It’s weird. People like to complain, indeed. And I like to complain about other people complaining.
Tim Fulton 21:40
So last note, I just wanted to give a basically a solicitation to listeners, we’re booking out the fall interviews have some really great ones coming up. Good mixture of things, but if folks have any ideas or things they’d like to hear about, or even like, piece of Columbus history they’d like to hear more about they can always email info at the confluence cast.com to give us their ideas, or if you’re a public relations professional, and you just want to pitch your person that’s that’s fine, too.
Walker Evans 22:15
Yeah. And we’ll we’ll rotate out guests as well. You know, it’s not always going to be all the time. Yeah, have some of the other have Jesse back in or other freelancers. Yet some other special guests just kind of weigh in on what they’re up to and will continue to improve the studio. Yes. More. More fake plants. Maybe some more real plant. We
Susan Post 22:35
need a fern. No.
Tim Fulton 22:37
All right. Thank you guys.
Susan Post 22:38
Thank you. Thanks.
Tim Fulton 22:50
Thank you for listening to Confluence cast presented by Columbus underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at the confluence cast.com Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of The confluence cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite restaurant tour. If you’re interested in sponsoring the confluence cast get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info at the confluence cast.com Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I’m your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.
