Restauranteurs

Tim Fulton 0:08Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. In this week's episode, we have two conversations with Columbus restaurateurs. First up, Sangeeta Lakhani, co-owner of The Table, former co-owner of Bodega, both of those in the Short North. We talk about what it's like to own a restaurant, what the current state of the Short North is. A note here, this conversation was recorded last year, so some of the recent changes in the Short North aren't reflected in the conversation. So we talk about what it's like to own a restaurant in the Short North. We talk about interactions with clients, with customers, what it's like working with the city. Next up, we have a conversation with founder and head fryer of Hot Chicken Takeover, currently the reigning champion for best food truck in Columbus. We talk with Joe Deloss. Uh, we talk a little bit about the chicken, but mostly we talk about Hot Chicken Takeover's human resources model. Uh, more on the interviewees and the issues that we discussed can be found in this week's show notes at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interviews. Sang, how did you get sort of into the restaurant business in the first place?

Sangeeta Lakhani 1:35I think it was Hound Dogs that led me into the whole restaurant experience. Um, I was at CCAD, thought I was gonna be some world famous commercial photographer, um, and then started working Hound Dogs with my ex-husband and realized a new passion for food and just went back to school, went to the Colu- Community College Hospitality program, um, and just kept going.

Tim Fulton 2:03Did you feel like that was needed? The... Did you gain a lot of sort of-

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:07Mm

Tim Fulton 2:07... these are the nuts and bolts of how to run a restaurant?

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:10No. Um, I really didn't get much out of the culinary program. I mean, it's great. It's a great step. It's, you know, great to learn some of the stuff that, I don't know, I think maybe I use more as a restaurant owner than I would have if I'd just become a chef somewhere. Um, I think I got more experience from the places I worked at as opposed to what I learned in school.

Tim Fulton 2:32What's the sort of thi- I mean, are they teaching you how to do ordering, how to run the books, how to be a-

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:38Right

Tim Fulton 2:39... you know, how to be a manager of people?

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:41Right. The industry part of it, the part where, um, I was learning how to do food cost or, you know, how to price things on a menu or where to put items on a menu to sell it better, um-

Tim Fulton 2:56Thing-

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:56... things like that, that you wouldn't-

Tim Fulton 2:57Things that, yeah, you wouldn't think of

Sangeeta Lakhani 2:58... think of, you know, and you wouldn't naturally pick them up. You have to be set into that mode. Like, you have... Somebody has to be like, "Okay, this is your job for you to, like, pick that up," you know? So those little details school really helped me with. But besides that, you know, knife skills, like this is how you julienne, this is how you shave something, this is, you know, this is how to make a canal.

Tim Fulton 3:20Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 3:21Things like that, like little details, yes. But I think to actually be able to cook, you have to cook, and the best experience for that is working, you know?

Tim Fulton 3:33So how... Talk about the inception of Bodega and what the, what the idea was there. I know that the... I was working directly across the street at the time, and so I saw, you know, a build-out that took longer than one would assume it should normally take. Uh, talk, talk about what the original concept was and how that sort of evolved as you went through build-out and then opened a restaurant.

Sangeeta Lakhani 3:55Well, Colin was working for me at Rivari Room as a bartender, and he had that space in mind, so he'd already leased it out. Um, Colin, being the hippie that he was back in the day, wanted to open a little coffee shop. So he tried to convince me for a long time, this was when I was going through the culinary program, and I had no interest in being part of a coffee shop. It's a lot of coffee to sell. 10 years ago, nobody cared about coffee. There was not, you know, little roasters and drip coffee and nothing fantastic was happening. It was coffee. It was Insomnia-

Tim Fulton 4:32Mm-hmm

Sangeeta Lakhani 4:33... you know. Um, so kind of convinced him to do a little bit more than that, and we went back and forth and started working on the place. Uh, we were working on the place with money out of our pockets. We didn't take out any loans or anything to build Bodega, so it did take a little bit longer than natural restaurant build-out would be. But we did-

Tim Fulton 4:54So that's what hampered it-

Sangeeta Lakhani 4:55Right

Tim Fulton 4:55... was-

Sangeeta Lakhani 4:56But we did most of the work, like, ourselves.

Tim Fulton 4:59Okay.

Sangeeta Lakhani 4:59We didn't really hire out people. Um, we did all the tile work at Bodega. We did, I mean, we did most of the things there. So it did take us... And it was our first venture, so there was a huge learning curve there, you know, uh, permits and everything else. And restaurant build-out does kind of go like that. Like, if you say six months, it's gonna be a year. You know, you say two weeks, there's always another two weeks at the end of that two weeks. So-

Tim Fulton 5:22Right, because it, all, all of it is not completely dependent on you. There are-

Sangeeta Lakhani 5:26Right

Tim Fulton 5:26... you know, waiting, submitting those permits and waiting for them before you can start some-

Sangeeta Lakhani 5:30Right

Tim Fulton 5:30... step in the process, like plumbing or electric-

Sangeeta Lakhani 5:33Right

Tim Fulton 5:33... or, yeah.

Sangeeta Lakhani 5:34And that in itself is such a maze because you apply for the permit, an inspector comes out and he's like, "Okay, check, check, check on everything. I want you to change this." You change it, then you got to call for another inspection. Another inspector comes out, probably not the one you had last time. That guy's like, "Well, why did you do it like this? You should have done it like this, and I want you to change this." And then he just took another $350. And then you go through that process until somebody comes in and goes, "Oh, you don't have to do any of this stuff. Go ahead, I'll sign off on it."

Tim Fulton 6:08So it's really... I mean, it's sort of the luck of the draw, at least in terms of those inspectors, luck of the draw-

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:14Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 6:14... on like who's gonna be, you know-

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:15Oh

Tim Fulton 6:15... somebody's gonna have, you know, really have it up their ass about the drainage on the sinks, but somebody else may not care.

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:22Absolutely. And it really, like, those are the times, you know, for as much as you get questioned as a woman business owner, like, was it difficult for you? Was it hard for you being a woman? You know, those are the times when being a woman comes into play. 'Cause the amount of stuff I got passed through those inspectors, Colin could have never done.

Tim Fulton 6:43Really? So you... It was almost as a, it was a virtue for you-

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:46Yeah

Tim Fulton 6:46... in that case.

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:47They love it. You know, the little naive, like, "Um, what do I have to do?"

Tim Fulton 6:51Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 6:51"Can you help me? Like, could you just... I just wanna get it open." And they will do anything for you. You just have to be sweet and naive and need help.

Tim Fulton 7:02Right. And, you know, people wanna help.

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:04And people wanna help you.

Tim Fulton 7:05Have you seen any difference between... So it was roughly 10 years ago that you guys opened up-

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:11Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 7:11... Bodega. You did a renovation that I imagine took, uh, permitting and, and working through the city.

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:18Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 7:18And then you've opened a second restaurant, and also Colin's opened a brewery that you were, you know, you were around for that-

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:25Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 7:25... and also done his stuff at the North Market. Have you seen any difference in the way that the city works? There's a lot of discussion right now about trying to make those processes easier. Does it seem the same to you?

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:39No, it's exactly the same. Um-

Tim Fulton 7:41Okay

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:42... nothing has changed. We've changed. We know what to look for. Um, we know what traps to avoid. We know who to just go talk to and cut out the middleman, you know?

Tim Fulton 7:52And by we, you mean you.

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:54I mean we as in-

Tim Fulton 7:56You

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:56... Colin and me, like people that have done this before.

Tim Fulton 7:59Gotcha.

Sangeeta Lakhani 7:59You know? Like, yes, me.

Tim Fulton 8:00Well, and that's just the, that's just the learning curve, right?

Sangeeta Lakhani 8:02You know? So... Oh, absolutely. But having been through that, like I know how to navigate through the system.

Tim Fulton 8:08Are there suggestions that you would make for the ci- Because there's a lot of discussion right now about sort of simplifying the permitting process, making it so that you don't have to, at least contractors don't have to like go down there and submit plans anymore, automating things to an extent. Are there any suggestions that you would make for them to make that process easier? Maybe you talk about the, you know, the inspectors coming out and being varied in terms of what they're telling you to change and what you need to do. Are there other suggestions that you would make for the city to make that process easier?

Sangeeta Lakhani 8:43I think just the most important thing is communication within the department. You know, if you're going to come out and ask me to install something, then make sure that you've noted that down in my paperwork so the next guy coming in knows what he's looking for, you know? And-

Tim Fulton 9:00Knows what that you-

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:01Right

Tim Fulton 9:01... what you were asked to do.

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:02Right. And why.

Tim Fulton 9:03Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:03You know? Um, I think there needs to be a clear packet, not just for contractors, but for restaurant owners or retail shop owners, you know, exactly what permits they're looking for, you know, and not to put you through the, "Oh, you didn't get this? Well, you have to get this to get that." You know? Like-

Tim Fulton 9:21Right. Well, 'cause it-

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:23Give me a concise list in order so I know what to do.

Tim Fulton 9:27Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:28You know?

Tim Fulton 9:28Because these are not, you know, it's just like I've had some experience getting like temporary liquor permits and like it's a seven-step process, but there's no, there's no step at which anybody's gonna tell you no. But yes, you have to do them all in order before you, you know-

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:41Right

Tim Fulton 9:41... submit that final check.

Sangeeta Lakhani 9:43And not everybody can afford to. Yes, you have to, you know, you should, it's wiser to get a contractor because there's somebody to manage time between your plumber and your electrician and your hood guy and, you know. But as a business owner, you could be the contractor and you're saving yourself 10, 20, $30,000, you know? So if that's an option, if the city is letting you do that, then they need a list in place for, you know, just a checklist for people to go through so we're not wasting their time and they're not wasting ours.

Tim Fulton 10:14Yeah. So once you get the restaurant open, what are the... You know, you have joked before, uh, about, you know, you're, you're making sure that the bills get paid and making sure the lights are turned on and making sure that people are coming through the door. What are the other functional sort of day-to-day aspects of your job? A- and well, and day-to-day things that you need to worry about as-

Sangeeta Lakhani 10:38Um

Tim Fulton 10:39... as a restaurant owner.

Sangeeta Lakhani 10:41I think as a bus- business owner, your biggest challenge is employees. I think if I could run a business without employees, I would be very successful. The hiring, the firing, the maintenance, the coddling of employees is what takes up most of your day every day, 'cause-

Tim Fulton 11:00Because everybody's got a personality and everybody's got a need-

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:02And everybody's got baggage and everybody's got needs, and you're their mom.

Tim Fulton 11:07Mm-hmm.

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:07You know? It's like having 30 children that come to you every day, you know? Like, "I have cramps. My boyfriend broke up with me. My girlfriend's cheating on me." Like, you have to take all that in. Like, for as much as you say leave that crap at the door, it doesn't. It comes in, you know? "Oh, I'm having a shitty day today because my cat died."

Tim Fulton 11:26Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:26You know? So there's that aspect of it. You are, in essence, a parent to X number of employees.

Tim Fulton 11:33And I imagine, though, that you're a little proud of that, that-

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:36I am

Tim Fulton 11:36... you know, say, you know, it's a-

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:37I'm mama Sang.

Tim Fulton 11:38Yeah. Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:39Come on.

Tim Fulton 11:40It's, you know, it's annoying, I'm sure, but you know, a kid's shitty diaper is annoying too.

Sangeeta Lakhani 11:45You know? Yeah. But-

Tim Fulton 11:46But you're still... You get to be that, forgive me for the connotations for the word, but you get to be that matronly figure of the establishment, uh, certainly among your staff, probably to an extent among, you know, your regulars and your dedicated people.

Sangeeta Lakhani 12:02Oh, absolutely.

Tim Fulton 12:02Um, Bodega specifically, people felt ... an ownership over it. Um, and still do to a d- you know, you guys at, at one point made a choice to renovate, to change everything up, y- to change sort of the, the functionality of the kitchen and what the kitchen had available. Still same number of taps, but rearranged the place. What was, first of all, your motivation for doing that? And then what, um, helped inform the choices that you made in that renovation?

Sangeeta Lakhani 12:32If you live in a house for 10 years, you're gonna hit a point where you're like, "I need to change something. I can't," you know, "The couch is in the same place for the last 10 years. The color on the walls is the same." Like, you're going to hit a point where... And that Bodega was our home, completely, 100%. We spent every day and most evenings in there. It was our family. But we got sick of looking at it. Um, we needed the change to happen. We got... It, it was just hard to go in day after day and nothing's changed. You're walking into the same problems every day. It's such an old building. We don't own it, you know, so we're struggling with landlords to try to figure out, "Okay, I really need to change the electric, but I can't tear down your building to do it," you know?

Tim Fulton 13:18Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 13:18And it was just... So we'd make these minute changes along the way, but it was such a burden, it was such a hurdle, um, to walk into the same stuff every day. And we-

Tim Fulton 13:30Was there-

Sangeeta Lakhani 13:30... had to hit a point where we just were like, "Okay, we have to start from scratch."

Tim Fulton 13:34What was that point?

Sangeeta Lakhani 13:35Yeah.

Tim Fulton 13:35Was there a specific thing that was, you just throw your, you know, one more outlet doesn't work, or you know-

Sangeeta Lakhani 13:41I, I think we'd-

Tim Fulton 13:41... was it a little thing?

Sangeeta Lakhani 13:42I think it was all of those little things, but I think, uh, the fact that Colin had opened Seventh Son and I had opened The Table, we'd both walked away and done new things that we'd started from scratch. It just woke us up to the fact that w- we need to just do this. Like, this is crazy, you know. We h- both had different perspectives coming back into Bodega.

Tim Fulton 14:07And did having those second businesses sort of... Because, you know, you guys, what, were you closed for six months?

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:13Four months.

Tim Fulton 14:14Four months? Four months.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:14Four months, yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:15So you, I mean, there's a loss of income there for you.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:17Oh, yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:18So what, was it just having the other spaces, other revenue streams that you were able to like, okay, we can... Because you guys weren't suffering. There was no-

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:27No, there was no suffering.

Tim Fulton 14:28You know, the, the bar was doing just fine.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:30Yeah. There was anguish. There was no suffering. Um, no. We're, we were blessed in that, that we didn't have to think twice about that end of things. My bills were getting paid, my kids were taken care, you know.

Tim Fulton 14:43Right. So talk about what, you know, again, the biggest complication in owning a restaurant is the people. You had to lay off four pe- you know, you had to lay off people for four months.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:53Yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:53And some of those people weren't coming back.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:55No, and some of those people were really upset.

Tim Fulton 14:57Yeah.

Sangeeta Lakhani 14:57And some of those people made it very well known that they were really upset. Um, I think a lot of that has to do also with our business model and how we had run Bodega, that we had garnered all these really close relationships. And people do tend to forget sometimes that you're not their friend, you're their boss, you know? And-

Tim Fulton 15:17Well, and you're not beholden to them.

Sangeeta Lakhani 15:19Right.

Tim Fulton 15:19Like, you don't... Th- this is, this isn't, you know, an at-will work state. You don't have an obligation to keep them on for, for a reason or not for a reason.

Sangeeta Lakhani 15:28Right.

Tim Fulton 15:28And especially if the, you know, if the amount of employees that you need and, or the positions that are available simply aren't there.

Sangeeta Lakhani 15:36And it is. It's just one of those things. I mean, everybody knows how to run your business better than you. You know? Ev- everybody. Everybody would do it differently was it their business. Well, you know what? There's very few of us that have the balls to actually do it, you know? So yeah, you take all that in. Okay, yeah, you're right. I would've... You know, you would've done it differently. You would've, you know, made millions of dollars. You would've kept all your employees happy. Great. Go ahead and do that. That's fantastic, you know? But this is my business, and I choose to run it this way, and I'm making the changes I'm making because it behooves my lifestyle and my career path and what it's going to bring to the table for my kids or their future. This is not about keeping 20 people that I hired happy. Like, yes, of course you want that for them, and we searched out other jobs for them. We made sure that we'd spoken with other businesses and, you know, they had somewhere to go. We didn't just give them the boot.

Tim Fulton 16:30Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 16:30Um, but people tend to forget that. Like, all, businesses do it all the time, y- right? People get laid off all the time.

Tim Fulton 16:38Absolutely. But-

Sangeeta Lakhani 16:38There's-

Tim Fulton 16:39... you know, there's a perception, I think, when it's a large corporation versus when it's, uh, a proprietorship, and you, you know, you are, again, the face. So-

Sangeeta Lakhani 16:50Right

Tim Fulton 16:51... talk about... So not a year later-

Sangeeta Lakhani 16:55Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 16:55... uh, you guys, someone, I assume-

Sangeeta Lakhani 16:58Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 16:58... came to you and made an offer and said, "I'd like to buy Bodega."

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:02Yeah.

Tim Fulton 17:03How did that go down? H- first of all, how did that conversation start? How long was that process of figuring out, yes, we wanna sell it, here are the assets that are avail- because, you know, there are, there are assets there.

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:15Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 17:15You know? Um, just talk about that process and what... 'Cause I imagine that's nothing that you've ever gone through before-

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:22No

Tim Fulton 17:23... to, to that extent.

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:24No, I haven't. Um-

Tim Fulton 17:26What was that like?

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:27So crazy, because, you know, in the perfect world, we would've gotten the offers before we'd renovated.

Tim Fulton 17:33Well, and I asked you this before-

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:35Right

Tim Fulton 17:35... because as an outsider, it looked like, oh, they rent- renovated to sell. Because you renovated, the staffing went down, things seemed a little bit more turnkey in terms of what was needed to run the business, and I, and then as soon as the sale of the business happened, I was like, "That was really smart." But that was not what you were doing.

Sangeeta Lakhani 17:54No. We renovated the place because, yes, we needed to slim it down because we both had other projects, and we needed a manageable business to run that we couldn't be at all the time. Um, so we made the changes dependent on that. Well, while we were closed, rumors circulated that we were out of business, we were, you know, renovating to sell the business. Like, it's a small town, word spreads, you know, and there's only so many

Tim Fulton 18:23Whether it's true or not.

Sangeeta Lakhani 18:24Right.

Tim Fulton 18:25Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 18:25It doesn't matter, you know? S- And we've heard it even while we were open and thriving, like, "Oh, are you guys closing the doors? Oh, are you guys opening another Bodega? Oh, are you guys moving? Are you selling? Are you looking?" You know. I've met tons of people that own bodega over the years- ... um, that have not been calling our eye. I've had conversations with people on the patio of Bodega that own bodega that, you know, that I'd never met before.

Tim Fulton 18:45Well, and that's just bullshit, though.

Sangeeta Lakhani 18:47Um, I know.

Tim Fulton 18:48Right. That's just-

Sangeeta Lakhani 18:48But it's amazing.

Tim Fulton 18:48Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 18:49You know, it's, it's kinda fun, like, y- people wanna own this place. Awesome, you know? Um, so no, w- uh, none of that was true. But because of that rumor mill, um, the right people heard that we were for sale, and approached us after, um, the renovations were complete. Well, a few, like, I don't know, six months after the renovations were complete. And first it just kind of threw us for a loop, and we're like, "Uh, I just put all this money into this place, like, why would I wanna sell it?" Like, you know, A, it's bodega, like, why would I sell bodega? Like, it's, it's bodega, you know? Who am I if I sell Bodega? Huge identity crisis, I'm just getting over it. Um, and then we started churning things, and it's, you know, well, our lease is up in a couple of years. Short North has completely, the dynamic of the Short North has completely changed. You know, do we wanna keep trying to keep up with the trends? Like, it's a nonstop thing anymore, like 28 restaurants opened in the Short North last year. Like, how much do you keep playing the game? You know, 10 years ago we were the first people to have 50 beers on tap.

Tim Fulton 19:57Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 19:57Reinvented the wheel. 10 years later, everybody's got it. Who are we? You know, we're just another bar. You know, yeah, we still have an amazing, amazing beer selection, but we're just another bar, you know? So it was just things like that that came into play, and we were like, it... We'd be stupid not to sell, you know? It's done great for us for 10 years, and if I can walk away debt-free-

Tim Fulton 20:21Yeah, because-

Sangeeta Lakhani 20:21... why wouldn't I?

Tim Fulton 20:22I mean, it's all... For you it was sort of that identity crisis. Also, the we're just, you know, we created something great, but it's just another bar.

Sangeeta Lakhani 20:32Right.

Tim Fulton 20:33And, you know, if the price is right at the end of the day, and you guys can walk away and not have any regrets about what you did there-

Sangeeta Lakhani 20:40Right

Tim Fulton 20:40... then why not?

Sangeeta Lakhani 20:40And it is, I think, in this industry, in my, in the bar industry, the restaurant industry, because we work there, because we're there all the time, we get emotionally attached to the place. People buy and sell businesses every day. Like, that's a smart businessman, to create something, make it a valuable product-

Tim Fulton 21:00And have, have an exit strategy

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:01... and then sell it.

Tim Fulton 21:01Right.

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:01Right. You know? I think we just get really attached to what we do, and we get attached to the people that we work with. Um, the, there was, out of the two people, the one person that wanted to buy it wanted to change the identity of how Bodega runs. He wanted to come in with a management team and, you know, like, his own people. That was an issue for us. So the fact that we picked Brian over the other person was because he wanted to keep the brand for what it was. Like, of course he's gonna make his changes, but our employees still had a place. Um, it was still Bodega, you know?

Tim Fulton 21:37Yeah, and you can change the menu, and you can put up new wallpaper.

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:40Right.

Tim Fulton 21:40But as long as you're not, you know, kicking everything that, uh, getting rid of everything that you guys built.

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:46Right.

Tim Fulton 21:46A- and the choices he's made seem to be choices that, given the option, and you guys said, "Eh, it's time for a refresh," you would've done exactly the same thing.

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:54No, I think it's great.

Tim Fulton 21:55Yeah.

Sangeeta Lakhani 21:56Yeah. I think it's great.

Tim Fulton 21:57That's great. That's great. Anything else about sort of that process and what you heard from the public or thought was a perception that, that may have been incorrect?

Sangeeta Lakhani 22:10That's, you know, social media has become such an amazing power tool for people to speak their minds. Um, it's great, you know, obviously your customers are important, but God damn, everybody's got two cents to put in, you know? I would never walk into your house and yell at you about changing the color of your walls, or, "Why did you move the couch?" Or, um, "Last time I came here there was a casserole, and this time you're gonna give me grilled cheese?" Like-

Tim Fulton 22:41Well, I'd like to point out there's still no cheese plate.

Sangeeta Lakhani 22:44You know.

Tim Fulton 22:44And it never, it never came back, the cheese plate.

Sangeeta Lakhani 22:47It never came back. You can come here and get a cheese plate.

Tim Fulton 22:49I know. I know. The table's a good place for it.

Sangeeta Lakhani 22:51Yeah.

Tim Fulton 22:52Well, thank, thank you so much for sitting down.

Sangeeta Lakhani 22:55Thank you. It was a pleasure.

Tim Fulton 22:57Mm-hmm. So you grew up here.

Joe DeLoss 23:02I grew up in Gahanna.

Tim Fulton 23:03You went to Lincoln?

Joe DeLoss 23:04I didn't.

Tim Fulton 23:05Okay.

Joe DeLoss 23:05We, uh, I grew up in Gahanna. I went to Goshen Lane Elementary on Denison Avenue, which is also where I lived. And then in 1994 my family moved away. So we went to Minneapolis from there.

Tim Fulton 23:16So you grew up in Minneapolis, basically.

Joe DeLoss 23:18I, uh, I was in Minneapolis for about three years, and then I moved to, uh, Iowa, and I was there for about a year, and then I moved to Medina, Ohio. And, uh, that's where I ended up through middle school and high school.

Tim Fulton 23:32What do your parents do that you went from here to Minneapolis to Idaho to Medina?

Joe DeLoss 23:37My father was, my father was in sales.

Tim Fulton 23:39Okay.

Joe DeLoss 23:39And so he, um, you know, kept growing and, and building his kind of sales empire, and we chased him.

Tim Fulton 23:46John, John Deere or what?

Joe DeLoss 23:47No. He sold, uh, he sold automotive equipment.

Tim Fulton 23:50Gotcha.

Joe DeLoss 23:51Like tire changers and wheel balancers and-

Tim Fulton 23:53Okay

Joe DeLoss 23:54... he's the, the first hustler of my family. Probably not the first, but-

Tim Fulton 23:57So then what did you do for school once you were out of high school?

Joe DeLoss 24:01I went to-

Tim Fulton 24:02Or did you do school?

Joe DeLoss 24:02I did. I did. I came back down to Columbus and I went to Capital University.

Tim Fulton 24:06Great.

Joe DeLoss 24:06So that was, um... I still have a lot of roots here. I had a ton of family, and so it was kind of a homecoming to some degree.

Tim Fulton 24:13Okay.

Joe DeLoss 24:13Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:13And then after that, pushed around a little bit, sort of went, tried to be an entrepreneur. What, what-

Joe DeLoss 24:19Yeah

Tim Fulton 24:19... what, what before Hot Chicken Takeover?

Joe DeLoss 24:21Yeah. So, you know, at some point in college, I, um, I'd always been a volunteer, um, prior to college. So middle school, high school, it was part of my family's life, it was part of my life. So I had a lot of experience being a volunteer. And at some point in college, that, um, light bulb went off on my head, um, while I was, you know, like every other sophomore figuring out their identity and role in the world, and I, I really started getting frustrated with volunteerism and ultimately just felt like I'm not moving the needle on these problems. I could serve soup all day here and come back tomorrow to a longer line. And so I decided at that point that I wanted to do something because I also loved business and I had always been kind of a hustler and entrepreneur in a lot of ways. And so I, I, I s- really decided that I wanted to somehow make that a career. And out of school, I didn't have any opportunities to do that. I was young and idealistic and, um, ended up working in an investment bank for about two years as an analyst.

Tim Fulton 25:20So where did the idea for Hot Chicken Takeover come from?

Joe DeLoss 25:23So, you know, Hot Chicken Takeover was, um-

Tim Fulton 25:25So let, let's be clear. I think-

Joe DeLoss 25:27There's a gap there, yeah.

Tim Fulton 25:28First of all, Hot Chicken Takeover i- was started as a pop-up-

Joe DeLoss 25:32Yeah

Tim Fulton 25:32... restaurant in Old Town East, literally just a window on the side of a building. In good weather, you served meals out of it.

Joe DeLoss 25:40Yeah.

Tim Fulton 25:40A lot of it was takeout, some of it was sit down at a picnic table and eat.

Joe DeLoss 25:43Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 25:44Um, it has since, I almost wouldn't say grown, just changed into having a, a, a permanent location at, uh, the North Market on the second floor. You guys are only open what days of the week?

Joe DeLoss 25:56We're open Wednesday through Sunday right now for lunch, 11:00 to 3:00, or, you know, if the chicken sells out, we're, we're closed then.

Tim Fulton 26:03So in my mind, and I, I hope we get back to it, you've been pretty mindful about this is what we can do and this is what we can do well.

Joe DeLoss 26:12Yeah.

Tim Fulton 26:12You, you haven't tried to be open seven days a week, be open for lunch and dinner. A testament to that is when you walk in, there's a sign on the wall that says, "This is how many meals we have left for the day."

Joe DeLoss 26:24Yeah.

Tim Fulton 26:24And we're not gonna, we're not gonna try and get people in that we can't serve and help.

Joe DeLoss 26:29Our business has grown through a lot of iteration and customer feedback. And so we, um, you know, we've grown into our business just as much as our customers have, and, and, um, thankfully we've have a great base, so as we've made mistakes and tried out things, we tried out dinner for a little while at the market and other things, um, we've been able to pivot kind of gracefully and, uh, with a lot of support from our, you know, the Columbus community and our customer base.

Tim Fulton 26:55I think what people know is, you know, you guys have some really kick-ass chicken.

Joe DeLoss 26:59Yeah.

Tim Fulton 27:00Um, but I think the story that a lot of people don't know is the, the reason why you started the business. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Joe DeLoss 27:06Yeah. So kind of, you know, back to this gap I had from banking to other things, I, I, I started immediately jumping in and got a lot of exposure to people that have been affected by poverty domestically and, and got really captivated by seeing them grow and, um, seeing what kind of resources could benefit that kind of trajectory. And so I got really hooked on employment as a mechanism to, um, just be a good foundation for somebody trying to change their circumstance or grow and, uh, had a couple failed startups in that space. I had one successful business called Fresh Box Catering that's still running, and so I created that for an organization and kind of solidified this is what I was gonna do with myself.

Tim Fulton 27:46Fresh Box came out of-

Joe DeLoss 27:48Lutheran Social Services-

Tim Fulton 27:49Okay

Joe DeLoss 27:50... of Central Ohio.

Tim Fulton 27:51Okay.

Joe DeLoss 27:51So I worked there for a little while, and my job was to create businesses that could employ people they were trying to serve in one way or another. And so that really solidified my opinions and kind of beliefs on how things could work. Hot Chicken came on the heels of kind of another failed startup trying to do the same work, and, uh, we went to Nashville, my wife and I. We had hot chicken for the first time, and were part of an environment there that we just felt really could congeal in Columbus. Community tables, kind of Southern hospitality at its best. And so, um, I got to work in our kitchen, and so that would've been November of 2013. And, uh, we were up and running by, you know, really in February of '14. Um, so very quickly we turned around the idea and concept and started validating.

Tim Fulton 28:39And so what is your employment philosophy then? Do you do outreach in order to find those that-

Joe DeLoss 28:45Yeah

Tim Fulton 28:46... couldn't be employed in a, a more traditional environment or an environment that has a higher barrier of entry-

Joe DeLoss 28:51Yeah

Tim Fulton 28:51... for them, a checkbox on an application form if you will?

Joe DeLoss 28:54So broadly and succinctly, our mission is to provide supportive employment to adults that have been affected by incarceration, homelessness, or poverty.

Tim Fulton 29:03Okay.

Joe DeLoss 29:03And so we, it, we, we talk about it in broad strokes because we treat it in broad strokes as an employer. And so the... I think it's probably 60% of our workforce now fit into that category, and it's been a combination of people finding us, uh, people being referred to us by, uh, great community agencies that work with that population frequently, and then our employees also being a, a really great referral source to say, "This job is different than other jobs I've had," and, um, they're telling their friends about it, which is positive.

Tim Fulton 29:33Now that you're two years in, you're experiencing obviously sort of goodwill, uh, for doing that, I imagine.

Joe DeLoss 29:40Yeah.

Tim Fulton 29:40But then also is there, are there negative aspects of that that, you know... There's, there's a reason why there are checkboxes on those forms, I would think. Are you seeing sort of negative impacts to what you're doing?

Joe DeLoss 29:52Yeah, I think it's a fair question. I, I think the reality is there's a perceived risk to the group we're hiring. We don't perceive that risk, which is why we're hiring them. Um, the only thing we've seen is really positive outcomes out of it. So we've been open now for 19 months or so. We've had 60% retention of our staff since we opened. Nobody in our industry can, um, even talk about retention generally. They have to report turnover. And so if they were talking about retention, it would be a negative number. They're generally turning over at least 100%. of their jobs each year. Uh, we've been open for, you know, approaching two years, and we've retained 60% of our workforce.

Tim Fulton 30:31I know that you're moving into catering at some point.

Joe DeLoss 30:33Yeah.

Tim Fulton 30:33Um, you're doing some other partnerships. You had joked about doing hot turkey takeover for Thanksgiving. In terms of social good-

Joe DeLoss 30:41Yeah

Tim Fulton 30:41... what are the things that you still want to see Hot Chicken Takeover do? What else have you been exposed to that can be fixed?

Joe DeLoss 30:49Yeah. So we, you know, we think about our model not in terms of kind of charity or altruism, but, uh, that we are just creating a work environment that's really keen and thoughtful about the people we employ. And if you're hiring in this industry, in the food industry or the logistics industry or the call center industry, you know, you're hiring a group of people that have been really adversely affected by poverty. And so that might mean a criminal record. It might mean poor work history. It might mean bad transportation or poor childcare, inadequate healthcare, you name it. All those things creep into the work environment. And so what we've done is create an environment that helps stabilize those things.

Tim Fulton 31:25So how have you done that?

Joe DeLoss 31:26Yeah. So we have, we have three benefits categories. The first is financial stability, the second is personal stability, household stability, and the third is about professional development. And so think about these as kind of a unique benefits package that's really catered to this audience. And so, you know, for those of us that have worked, you know, professional jobs or white-collar jobs, we can appreciate employers give you the things they think you need and that you want to be successful. And so it might mean healthcare, or at Google, it might be three hot meals a day. We've just taken that notion and, um, really curated it for a different audience.

Tim Fulton 32:00And that's a model that I haven't heard before. Is that something you came up with, or is that s- sort of the, the social good model-

Joe DeLoss 32:07Yeah

Tim Fulton 32:07... for employing these people that are perceived to be unemployable in other environments?

Joe DeLoss 32:12Yeah. So we just think about it as good HR. And so the reality is we have benefits that are necessary for our people to be successful at home and at work. And so-

Tim Fulton 32:20Can we walk through those three?

Joe DeLoss 32:21Yeah.

Tim Fulton 32:22So financial stability i- is simply paycheck.

Joe DeLoss 32:25Um, no, it's a lot more than a paycheck.

Tim Fulton 32:26Okay.

Joe DeLoss 32:26So part of it is a paycheck, of course, and, and we're pushing closer and closer to get towards livable wages. We're not there yet. It's a place we aspire to be. Um-

Tim Fulton 32:35What, what is that number to you? What is-

Joe DeLoss 32:37So our average, our average wage right now is just over 10. Uh, most statistics and kind of research in our community and, and in Franklin County suggest, uh, we've gotta be up to, like, 13 or 14. And so the way we make up for that is, um, these other benefits. And so financial literacy, to get back to it, is, uh, beyond a paycheck. It's, um, recurring check-ins with a financial coach, and so this is... these are kind of all voluntary.

Tim Fulton 33:02So it's not required that for them to continue working for you.

Joe DeLoss 33:05No. No, no, no.

Tim Fulton 33:05Right.

Joe DeLoss 33:05It's all voluntary, à la carte benefits. Um, we generally find that the people that do utilize the benefits do a lot better and are also a lot more invested, and so financial coaching, matched savings accounts, emergency loans to avoid payday lenders, things like that. Broadly, unfortunately, there are a lot of businesses and industries that are predatory on low-income Americans. And, um, whether it's a buy here, pay here, or a payday lender or a pawn shop, you know, we're trying to negate some of those things through resources we have.

Tim Fulton 33:35What about the home, the second leg of that stool?

Joe DeLoss 33:38Yeah.

Tim Fulton 33:38The, the sort of home environment.

Joe DeLoss 33:40Yeah. So we have, uh, for our full-time employees, we do have healthcare. Um, we're working on some healthcare alternatives for, uh, the rest of our workforce, which is probably two-thirds. Um, and, and ideally, we'll get into a position where everybody has healthcare. Um, but so on that household stability front, it is, um, kind of emotional and physical wellness. And so if it's, uh, somebody needs mental health counseling or recovery support, uh, we have a team on retainer, um, to provide that confidentially to our workforce. And so it's a benefit that a lot of people have utilized on our team. Um, and, you know, to think about this broadly, it's a lot of the services they might be able to access in the community through, um, a nonprofit agency, but, uh, there's no line at Hot Chicken. It's about being responsive and relevant for what people need. And, um, so long as they're doing their job incredibly well and they're part of our team and they've maintained their employment, they have access to all of these things. And so it's kind of a different teeth to it than a traditional case management environment.

Tim Fulton 34:39What's the, what's the third leg of the stool?

Joe DeLoss 34:41The third is professional development, and so that's a, a lot more conventional. So a lot of employers invest in professional development. For us, what that means are industry certifications, training on food safety from the Columbus Public Health Department, things like that. Um, and then for others that are not necessarily interested in growing long-term careers in the food industry, we have access to partnerships at, um, Columbus State Community College and others for them to continue personal development or education on a different course.

Tim Fulton 35:09As you line yourself up against other businesses of your size in terms of staff and, and income, do you think that's hurting you at all? Offering those additional benefits, uh, is that hurting your bottom line?

Joe DeLoss 35:22So, um, I think long term, there's a, a huge return on investment for the work we do. When I, I talked about that retention rate or the loyalty or the feeling people have about working at Hot Chicken, it's a feeling they haven't had at a lot of other employers. Um, not, not for everybody, but, uh, you know, we believe we've heard that self-reported by many. And so, um, it, it's not free. You know, we, we pay for it, and a lot of those things come out of our, our bottom line, but we appreciate them as investments in the future of our team and our stability. The other is that we kind of leverage our customers to continue providing some of those really unconventional benefits, like matched savings. Um, and so that comes through our gratuity pool. So we don't pay service wages. We do accept gratuity at the restaurant. It works out to be 4% or 5% of our, our top-line revenue. And so that gets, um, held in an, kind of an escrow- Its own account all invested in our staff.

Tim Fulton 36:14And so that's how you're able to offer those benefits and have it not affect your bottom line as much as it may-

Joe DeLoss 36:21Yeah

Tim Fulton 36:21... if you were just covering it yourself.

Joe DeLoss 36:23Or inflate our prices.

Tim Fulton 36:24I see.

Joe DeLoss 36:25So it's, you know, at this point, that's part of our model that we don't know if it always stays that way. Uh, we do s- reap a lot of benefits from having the team we do, and so it's definitely something we want to... We, we, we primarily finance ourselves anyways.

Tim Fulton 36:38Are you doing outreach for other sort of social service grants, it, and, and other monies to come in to, to solve that, or are you-

Joe DeLoss 36:44Yeah

Tim Fulton 36:45... Is, is it all being taken care of through that gratuity and sort of through the investments that you're making?

Joe DeLoss 36:50Yeah. So it's, uh, it's the latter, which is, uh, you know, we're a for-profit, you know, very conventional company, um, that has a weird HR model or an unconventional HR model, and so we're paying for it ourselves and through that gratuity pool. And, uh, we don't, we don't intend to use any public dollars, um, though, you know, we are open to taking on investors and others that are supportive of our mission. For other businesses that are like us throughout the country, they've been able to tap into funds at, at points that are, um, generally a little more favorable, maybe the interest rates are lower or something like that because of the social outcomes that are getting created.

Tim Fulton 37:27As you sort of settle in, you're 19 m- 19 months in, what do you see as sort of the next big step for Hot Chicken Takeover?

Joe DeLoss 37:36Yeah. Great question. I'm trying to figure it out. Um, you know, so the reality is what we do at the North Market is unique, and, uh, the North Market itself is one of a kind. There's not a public market like it anywhere else, and, um, we're grateful for that. But it also, um, isn't replicable. And so what we have to do is figure out a model for Hot Chicken that is replicable. And for us, what that means is going into, you know, another community, building a restaurant that's not only open for lunch, um, and proving out the model in a different way. And so that's what we're working on now and, and anticipating something probably, you know, mid-year next year that we'll do our next, next iteration of Hot Chicken. Um, takes a little bit more money and a little bit more risk, but we're excited for it now, and we think we can do it.

Tim Fulton 38:20Is it surprising, 'cause you have roughly 40 people on staff.

Joe DeLoss 38:24Right.

Tim Fulton 38:24Is that a lot for the sort of size and scale of business that you have?

Joe DeLoss 38:29You know, I'm not sure. I think it's, um... It feels like a lot to me, not that... We, we're probably understaffed right now. We could probably use a few more, and so that's between... Those 40 are covering the North Market, our food truck, our special events, and catering operations, and so we're spread. You know, depending on the week, that team of 40 might be spread really thin. And so I think we probably... Our team is probably needs another 20% growth right now just for our current operation.

Tim Fulton 38:57Right.

Joe DeLoss 38:58Um, and then as we move to a more conventional model, we anticipate each of those restaurants having probably 60 or 70 staff each. I can't imagine anybody doing it differently, I guess, i- in my-

Tim Fulton 39:09It just-

Joe DeLoss 39:10... limited food experience

Tim Fulton 39:10... I, I, I mean, I'm just thinking about... I, I have very little food experience as well, and I'm just thinking about it, and that just seems like a lot.

Joe DeLoss 39:17Yeah.

Tim Fulton 39:17Especially considering the other businesses that are in the market, that-

Joe DeLoss 39:21Right

Tim Fulton 39:21... in the North Market. Uh, I mean, they maybe have a dozen employees. Uh-

Joe DeLoss 39:27Maybe

Tim Fulton 39:27... and you are open 20% less than they are, you know?

Joe DeLoss 39:31Yeah.

Tim Fulton 39:31I'm just thinking about it.

Joe DeLoss 39:32Yeah. I don't have much food experience either. Um, but I think we've, you know, we've learned and, and kind of muscled our way through growth and, uh, uh, the easiest way to do that was with people, to add bodies to your assembly line and others. Um, you know, we're at... There are points for Hot Chicken each day where we're pushing out volume at the pace that, uh, the busiest McDonald's might in a downtown area or something like that. And so we're doing... You know, we're... We have a team that can push out 300 meals in an hour. And so, um, the only way you do that is with, you know, high-capacity people that are m- working their tails off.

Tim Fulton 40:09Absolutely. So the entrepreneurship question, is there sort of... You've talked about scale and sort of proving that out. Is this what you wanna be doing in five, 10 years, is working on Hot Chicken Takeover, or is it sort of moving on to another socially conscious business model?

Joe DeLoss 40:24Yeah. You know, I, I think we started this business not because of chicken, but because of people. My personal passion is in building larger environments where we can develop people. And, uh, a- and really, we don't own people's development. They, they own their own. And so the idea for us is build environments where somebody has a foundation to grow if they choose it. If they don't choose it, they're probably not gonna work out. And so my intent is to figure out a way that we can expand this, expand this people strategy, this HR strategy. And I don't know what that looks like yet, and I love, I love Hot Chicken. I love our customers. I love our environment, and so I'm not, I'm not rushing to change that either.

Tim Fulton 41:03Why don't you think more people are going after business sort of in this model that you are? Because both-

Joe DeLoss 41:10Yeah

Tim Fulton 41:10... y- you are doing this for sort of all the good feels that you can get, sort of all the, you know, it feels good to give somebody a leg up and to, um, sort of alleviate, uh, problems they may be having. That feels great, but you're also creating a really solid workforce behind-

Joe DeLoss 41:30Yeah

Tim Fulton 41:31... a really solid product and business model.

Joe DeLoss 41:33And maybe the question, maybe the question, too, not to put words in your mouth-

Tim Fulton 41:36Please

Joe DeLoss 41:37... is about how the work we do applies to... How, how does this apply to the greater Columbus community?

Tim Fulton 41:42How does this model apply to the greater Columbus community?

Joe DeLoss 41:46So I think first off, you know, we're, we're doing this 'cause it makes sense. You know, sure, it feels good, and, um, and our... It buys us some goodwill with our customers, but we never want our staff to feel like sick puppies on a Sarah McLachlan commercial.

Tim Fulton 41:59Right.

Joe DeLoss 41:59So for us, it's, uh, about having a, a workforce and a, a team that people can be proud of and they can be proud to be on. Um, if you talk to any employer about the way they, they want their culture to be, whether they say they have it or not is a different story, but they'll say, "We want, you know, a proud team. We want people to love to come to work." And as an employer, you have to earn that. You know, we're earning it by investing in our staff as much as we want them to invest in us, and, um, I think that's a nut that we're cracking that most haven't. Broadly, how this applies to the Columbus community is that there are tons of employers, you know, probably 100,000 jobs that are in this category of kind of entry-level, uh, work that are, um, really tough to fill for employers, and they'll cry all day long about it. And the reality for me is I think that employers have to start developing their own workforce. We can't rely on p-public dollars all the time. We can't rely on public organizations to do it for us. I believe we're finding a strategy that works, uh, that I hope other employers will adopt, and maybe, maybe I can be part of that. You know, maybe we can be building an entity that allows, you know, companies to do this more comfortably.

Tim Fulton 43:11I know sort of with your, I think it's fair to overuse the term meteoric rise in terms of popularity and goodwill for, uh, the business and the product, frankly. I think that you've experienced a little bit of frustration in sort of being asked as y-y-you are labeled this entrepreneur that came up with this great idea and brought it to Columbus, and people are going crazy about it. And that wasn't the goal, right? I mean, you are passionate about the food. It's good. It's r- it's re-

Joe DeLoss 43:40Yeah

Tim Fulton 43:40... it's really good, but that's not why you started the business. As you're doing, you know, panel discussions and when you're sort of thrown in with other entrepreneurs, serial entrepreneurs, whatever term you wanna use, do you experience frustration when people are like, "Well, how'd you come up with it?" And, you know, what, what are the frustrating questions that you're getting that you s- you're sort of banging your head against the table saying, "That's not what this is about"?

Joe DeLoss 44:06Yeah. So it's not what it's about for me. Um, but the reality is, um, I'm passionate about chicken because I'm passionate about our workforce, and selling chicken to a lot of people gives me the privilege of doing what I want as an entrepreneur with our workforce. And so it, I, I sometimes, I sometimes get... I just get, uh, tired of talking about chicken, um, because it's not, it's not the first thing I knew. The first thing I knew was our HR work, and, and that's where my instincts led me to the business and led me to the idea. Uh, but yeah, I'm grateful. I'm not, I'm not super frustrated. I'm grateful that we can create the workforce we have, that we're 18 months in and have 40 employees. And so that's on the back end of that meteoric rise that people talk about, is that our team has been developed the whole time, and that we've got a lot of people that, you know, otherwise have a lot of trouble finding work and wouldn't find the connection or, uh, the familial kind of foundation they get at Hot Chicken, which is a foundation that they can grow from. Yeah, sitting on panels talking about food growth or things like that, the reality is I feel kind of inadequate to talk about those things because I'm not a culinarian. I'm not a... I didn't go to, you know, school for it or anything like that. And so I c- I sometimes feel guilty because there are people that know our industry so much better in our community.

Tim Fulton 45:28Well, I sat at a, a luncheon where Cameron Mitchell was being interviewed, and at one point, whomever was interviewing him said, "So what do you wanna do next? Like, what's the big thing?" And he literally sat there, and he, he was silent for a second. He was like, "You know, I think I really need to talk to that Hot Chicken Takeover guy because he seems to really have something going." I don't think he has any idea about sort of the, the workforce development and the HR work that you do.

Joe DeLoss 45:57So the reality is he actually knows a lot about it.

Tim Fulton 45:59Okay.

Joe DeLoss 45:59He's been, uh, he's been mentoring us and providing a lot of his resources from his team, um, for the last 12 months. And so, you know, there's an example of somebody that knows the industry, knows how to build and scale ideas. Uh, love or hate the restaurants, they're, they're onto something magic.

Tim Fulton 46:16Absolutely.

Joe DeLoss 46:17The thing that's really unique about CMR in particular is they understand HR, and they understand investing in people and second chances. And, and Cameron will tell you his personal story that's pretty similar. And so, um, yeah, it was... I, I felt, uh, I felt very proud when I heard about the CMC luncheon-

Tim Fulton 46:36Yeah

Joe DeLoss 46:36... mentioned by he... And he also included me, I think, with, uh, Jenny.

Tim Fulton 46:40Mm-hmm.

Joe DeLoss 46:40And, uh, that's somebody that I just really love and admire. And so, uh, that was cool. Um, but it's even better that I, I think he's come around a lot to the mission and, um, yeah, I, I've learned a lot from them.

Tim Fulton 46:53The other thing I wanted to note is it doesn't seem like you're putting that HR model sort of front and center. Um, n-

Joe DeLoss 47:00Yeah

Tim Fulton 47:00... now that I know much more about the why and the how that you're doing it, I think very quickly about, uh, Clean Turn-

Joe DeLoss 47:09Yeah

Tim Fulton 47:09... and she has a name that, that John Rush put together, um, where that model is sort of front and center, and it's in your face almost to the point of you, you should hire us because of the HR model that we have and the people-

Joe DeLoss 47:24Yeah

Tim Fulton 47:24... that we're bringing on and sort of giving it a second chance. Were you conscious in that decision to not cash in in a public relations standpoint-

Joe DeLoss 47:33Yeah

Tim Fulton 47:33... on, on the people that you're employing?

Joe DeLoss 47:36Yeah. So I, I love John. I've followed his work, and we've been good friends for years. Uh, we have different styles, but we're also in different industries, and I think the reality about where John is playing as a, as a business person and as an entrepreneur is that he's in commoditized markets. And so it's, um, you know, there are a lot of people that can deliver on the same, same level of service perhaps, the same pricing or anything like that. And so it's a great differentiator for them. Um, and in particular, there's a lot of opportunity in that industry for second chances and growth. And so, um, I think it's probably a product of that more than anything else. You know, our strategy is to treat it as a second or third date conversation. If you don't like our food, you don't like our atmosphere, you don't like our sweet tea, who knows? You're probably not gonna come back anyways. Um, and so we wanna get those people that do like their experience, that do feel like it's something they would spend money on any day, and then seal it in with kind of the cherry on the sundae, which is that your money goes further here, and this is what it does. Um, and so that creates kind of a different loyalty, and it also creates something worth talking about. So there aren't many people that go and talk about chicken at a party. They will talk about chicken that has a different story. I think the secondary piece of that is we like our staff to tell their own story. And so I don't-

Tim Fulton 48:51It's not a Sarah McLachlan commercial, as you said earlier.

Joe DeLoss 48:53It's not. It's not. And if sick puppies could talk, I'm sure they would hate those commercials too. Um, but so for our staff, it is about pride and being proud. And, and I don't wanna say anything to you, Tim, that I wouldn't say with one of our staff sitting right next to me. And so that's, you know, that's our hallmark. And part of that is that, you know, if you go in and one of our hosts is greeting you in the line and talking to you about the food, and you ask about that little blip on the back of the menu, they're probably gonna talk to you about it, but also talk about how it's affected their life. And, um, the thing I love most about that is when you do it as a second or third date, it does change people's judgments because they came in, they had a great service experience. They're not thinking about the lowly, uh, panhandlers or others that they might be imagining wh- when they hear about our strategy. Um, so there's-

Tim Fulton 49:41Well, because it's also... I mean, now that I think about it, it's sort of, it's the Warby Parker, it's the Toms shoes. It's, you know, it's that sort of model which now, and I think a lot more six, eight months from now, the public will kind of be like, "Hmm, that was a line of shit that was sort of fed-

Joe DeLoss 49:59Yeah

Tim Fulton 49:59... us about, like, why do these canvas shoes need to cost $80? Oh, well it's because shoes need to go to people that don't have shoes. Well, do they? Couldn't we do more things for them other than getting them shoes? And what's, you know, sort of the bottom line?

Joe DeLoss 50:17Yeah. There's a, there's a difference between being a charitable business and being a social enterprise. We're a social enterprise because we've integrated our, you know, mission and strategy into our business model. Hot Chicken is better because of our mission, and it's not because it convinces you to buy chicken. It's because it makes our workforce stronger, it makes our customer service better, all of those things. And so th- the, the alternative is if you're doing buy one, give one or something like that, the reality is it's charitable and it- it's your privilege as an entrepreneur to do whatever you want with your money. And I think a lot of, a lot of customers do buy into that. Um, we're charitable. You know, as a company, I think this year we've already crested $20,000 that's been given away charitably as part of cause related kinda mission marketing campaigns. And, um, so I'm not against that. I just don't think it makes you a social enterprise. I don't think it, um, creates long-term standing impact. And so, uh, but again, as an entrepreneur, it's your privilege to do whatever you want. And, and the privilege we have is employing the people we do, and, uh, we'll keep doing that.

Tim Fulton 51:22I would be remiss if, if I didn't ask why Columbus and why you've chosen this market in order to... 'Cause y- you've been to other places around the country.

Joe DeLoss 51:31Yeah.

Tim Fulton 51:31You've spent a couple of months, collectively probably a couple of years in, in New York City as an adult. Um, what, uh, why Columbus?

Joe DeLoss 51:39Yeah. I s- I think there's an excitement and sense of commitment to Columbus proud projects that you don't see in a lot of other communities. And so, I mean, think about Hot Chicken's meteoric rise, as you call it. The reality is that our model, you know, we, we had days where we served people raw chicken when we started. Um, that would be a nail in the coffin of, of almost any business. And, um, thankfully we dealt with it humbly and, and pivoted as fast as we could and figured out our model. But it's because we had a community that embraced us and said, "The work you do, the mission you have, the product you imagine is worth supporting." And, you know, our business has probably received more than its fair share of second chances as we've learned and grown, and there aren't many gracious, generous places like that. And, uh, Columbus is definitely one of them. So I couldn't imagine doing... I couldn't imagine Hot Chicken working the way it has worked in any other community. And, uh, so I'll keep, I'm gonna stick around here and keep building here, and whether it's Hot Chicken or the next one, we'll, we'll figure it out.

Tim Fulton 52:39Great. Joe, thank you so much for this.

Joe DeLoss 52:41Thanks, Tim.

Tim Fulton 52:50Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, more information on what we discussed today can be found at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, your contacts, your neighborhood chef. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I am your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.