Carless in Columbus

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week's episode has its foundation in an interview I did with Cleve Ricksecker, the executive director of the two Downtown Special Improvement Districts, also known as SIDs. He and I discuss the two SIDs, what they do, how they function. We talk about the commuter culture in Columbus, the Central Ohio Transit Authority or COTA, Columbus City Schools, uh, putting kids on city buses, and then we delve a little bit into some race and class issues in Columbus, quite frankly. Given the transit issues that Cleve and I focus on, we have two additional segments towards the end of this week's episode. First, a short interview with Columbus entrepreneur Jacob Taylor about what it's like to live without a car in Columbus and why he chose to do it. And the cherry on top, or rather the end of the podcast this week, is our first segment with Zach Hinkle. He will be speaking on his choice to live without a car in Columbus. A point of clarification about Zach's piece. He and I sat down for an interview, uh, but I have removed myself from the interview. I, I edited my questions out. Zach speaks with a clarity, uh, brevity, and directness that I find really charming and funny, and frankly, I wanted it to live on its own. We hope that you can expect more from Zach on this podcast in the future. More on the interviewees in this week's episode and the issues that we discuss can be found in this week's show notes at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interviews. Sitting down with Cleve Ricksecker. What is your proper title? Executive director?

Cleve Ricksecker 2:14Yeah. I'm executive director of two Special Improvement Districts Downtown: Capital Crossroads and Discovery.

Tim Fulton 2:19And you were just explaining to me what's the difference between those two districts.

Cleve Ricksecker 2:24Well, Capital Crossroads covers the core of downtown. It's, it's really the original downtown Columbus before the inner belt was built where most of the, uh, high-rise office towers are located, the statehouse. Um, the north- very northern part of this, uh, area is the, uh, convention center. And then Discovery is, uh, east of Fifth Street. It has a lot of large institutions, Columbus State, CCAD, Franklin University. Grant Hospital's over there. And it, it's more of a neighborhood, and it, it really perceives itself as being a neighborhood separate from downtown in many ways.

Tim Fulton 2:57Were both SIDs founded around the same time?

Cleve Ricksecker 3:00Uh, Cap Crossroads was founded in, uh, 2000, started operating with assessments in 2002. Discovery was founded in 2005 and started operating with assessments 2007.

Tim Fulton 3:10And so you're-- You've been in this role since its founding, since 2000.

Cleve Ricksecker 3:15Yes, that's correct.

Tim Fulton 3:16Um, and then what, what's your background from before that?

Cleve Ricksecker 3:19I... Prior to working with Capital South to create the SIDs back in two... in 2000, 2005, I was, um, director of the Riverfront Commons Corporation. We did the Riverfront Plan, which is being executed right now along the riverfront. And then prior to that, I, um, I was head of the Short North Business Association, now the Short North Alliance. Uh, I followed my bliss for the last 35 years. Um, I ran the Arts Festival for five and a half years. Um, I did some really fun work at Capital Law School for about six years. Um, and so I've... I, I... My career will only be, um, uh, really, uh, understandable in hindsight.

Tim Fulton 3:59Do you consider yourself by trade a... Are you a city planner? Are you simply a civic leader? What-

Cleve Ricksecker 4:05Um, I think by trade, I'm a, uh, uh, a nonprofit entrepreneur-

Tim Fulton 4:10Okay

Cleve Ricksecker 4:10... and a creative bureaucrat.

Tim Fulton 4:12Got it. And so what's your education in then?

Cleve Ricksecker 4:15I, uh, got a, a history degree and a law degree, and I'm a licensed attorney. And when I got licensed, I decided I really had no interest in practicing law whatever, whatsoever. So I, um, at that point decided that I would begin to do things that looked, um, meaningful and enjoyable. And I've, uh, picked all my jobs, um, with one question in mind, and that is would I choose to do that for free so that the paycheck is just a bonus on top of the actual, uh, work that I was doing.

Tim Fulton 4:45Well, I think that'll be, you know, the first of Cleve's tips. How much has your law degree informed the work that you're doing in terms of... We were just talking about, uh, one of the SIDs is up for renewal right now, and being in the position that you're in, you obviously have an understanding of how that goes. But has, uh, your law background sort of informed your work?

Cleve Ricksecker 5:05Well, a law degree as a graduate discipline, uh, law is a really good discipline. It, it, it tr- it teaches you to think, um, in a very analytical sort of way, and, um, it's been helpful in every job I've done really since I graduated from law school. Not so much... I mean, I, I, I can read statutes. I can, um, uh, I can write clearly, which is what, you know, writing like a legal article about. Um, so it, it's informed me only in that, um, it, it, um, demystified, uh, professionals and that was, uh... I remember the first time I flew on an airplane after I got my, uh, license to, uh, practice law, and I realized, uh, that there's nothing mystical about airline pilots. I kind of panicked on the plane. But, uh, it's helped me professionally, uh, just, um, I don't know, not, uh, be intimidated by people, not being intimidated by professions. It, it's really allowed me to, um, uh, up my game and, um- Really deal with other people on an equal level, equal basis.

Tim Fulton 6:12Let's talk about sort of the mission of the SID or SIDs. Um, what-

Cleve Ricksecker 6:16Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 6:16... first of all, what, what's its purpose? Why, why does it exist?

Cleve Ricksecker 6:20Well, the, the two SIDs exist for similar reasons, and that is to make downtown, um, you know, a great place to work, a great place to live, a great place to play. And in the case of Discovery District, um, there's really, uh, a, an enclave that people over there want to promote and, um, um, you know, make, uh, more appealing to Central Ohio residents. Um, and so they're very general goals. Um, but ultimately, you know, the property owners that are paying assessments, the way SIDs work is that once you get owners representing at least 60% of the property in any contiguous area, it could be a square block, it could be 100 square miles. Once you get owners representing 60% of private property to sign a petition to levy an assessment to pay for services, then all the private property owners within that area have to pay. It's a mandatory fee. It allows a place like downtown Columbus or the Short North to compete with places like Easton, where you have a single owner. That single owner has common lease terms w- with all the tenants, charges not only for rent but for marketing and security and landscaping, where you can never get common leases in downtown. We work with 800 property owners in the two SIDs. And so, the, the SID law in Ohio is an attempt to put an area like downtown Columbus on a more equal footing with suburban properties. Um, and I can't recall-

Tim Fulton 7:52Well-

Cleve Ricksecker 7:52... what the start of that would cover.

Tim Fulton 7:53So, so first of all, you control those funds then, correct?

Cleve Ricksecker 7:58So the, the owners who create a SID, um, receive the money that's, that has been assessed. They open up their own private bank account. They hire and fire staff and contractors. I work at the pleasure of the property owners in, in downtown Columbus, for example, and, um, and could, you know, could be removed or replaced tomorrow if they chose.

Tim Fulton 8:21So is there, is there like a board that oversees it then?

Cleve Ricksecker 8:24Each of the two SIDs has its own board. Uh, one, uh, the Discovery has 18 people on its board, Capital Crossroads, 16 people. And, um, they, you know, they are property owners or asset managers. Um, they, they know the business because they, in many cases, are managing their own properties and, um, uh, oversee the work, set the, you know, direction of the two SIDs. Um, they do... I mean, the staff makes recommendations. They do listen to staff, but, but we also listen very careful, carefully to the owners as well to make sure we're doing what they want us to do.

Tim Fulton 8:56Let's get a little bit into how you make those two SIDs. What are the differences between the things that you're tasked with to do in each?

Cleve Ricksecker 9:04Mm-hmm. Well, there's some... They share some services. So for example, they share supplemental safety services, and that's really helpful because we have one person, one deputy director who manages safety services for both SIDs. Half of her time is charged off to one half, to the other. She runs the ambassador program for both SIDs, hires specialty police officers. We have a full-time outreach, actually almost soon to be two full-time outreach professionals who, whose jobs are to get people connected to services and off the streets of downtown Columbus. Um, and so we share some staff. I'm one quarter, uh, director of Discovery, three quarters director of Capital Crossroads. We sort of share, share staff so that the overhead costs are kept as low as possible.

Tim Fulton 9:46So that one quarter, three quarter, that's a, I imagine, just simply a budget issue-

Cleve Ricksecker 9:51Yes

Tim Fulton 9:51... in terms of... Okay.

Cleve Ricksecker 9:52Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I'm not, I don't, I don't, uh, cut myself in, in-

Tim Fulton 9:56Right

Cleve Ricksecker 9:56... into quarters.

Tim Fulton 9:57You're like, "Sorry, guys, I, you know, did my two hours today."

Cleve Ricksecker 10:00Right. Um, but there are some differences. So the, the Capital Crossroads SID does have a, um, cleaning program. They pick up litter. The ambassadors pick up litter, uh, wash the sidewalks, remove graffiti and weeds. Um, uh, and so there is an attempt to do some environmental maintenance. And the Capital Crossroads SID is, has a much bigger budget. It has been doing a series of capital improvements in downtown and, uh, maintains those improvements, big planters in Capital Square, uh, rebuilding of Nationwide Boulevard, uh, all the bike parking in downtown with the green roofs, for example. Uh, we put together the sign system in downtown as a product of the SID. Um, and so there have been quite a few capital improvements that have been executed and are now being maintained. And then we have a marketing program of downtowncolumbus.com, lots of electronic newsletters for downtown employees and property owners. Uh, we run the Pearl Market in downtown. Um, we really respond to, uh, uh, things that are missing and, and, uh, and, and change. So years ago, we started kickball in downtown and had a, uh, concert series on Capital Square. Well, once Columbus Downtown Development Corporation created the Columbus Commons, it started its own programming. We were no longer needed to do those things. And so we, we, um, have gotten out of the business of producing kickball and, and Thursday night concerts, and CDDC does a very good job of that. But then we see other things that, that need attention. Um, right now we're very conscious of the fact that in the core of downtown, there's a parking issue. And, and it's really not a parking issue. The issue is there are too many cars, and there's a lifestyle challenge in that everybody who works downtown wants an ur- They may want an urban environment, but they don't behave very urbanly because they, you know, too many people wanna drive to work every day, and that creates an issue. It, it, it means that because we have full parking lots that, uh, commercial offices now can't rent any more office space. Uh, hotels have a hard time hanging on to staff because, uh, it is more expensive to work downtown than at a suburban property. Major corporations can't bring more people downtown because we, we've set the, we've s- we've set the limit in how many people can work downtown by the number of cars we can bring downtown. And, and as a result, very few people take transit to work here in Columbus. Um, and that's frustrating because there's very good bus service, and many people could easily take the bus, uh, into downtown, not to mention bike or Uber or whatever they wanted to do. But, you know, the fact is that Transit will always be the biggest sharer outside of driving. Um, and that's, um, it, it's too bad. We- we've... Th- that's an issue that we, we haven't figured out the solution to it yet. Uh, we've talked about doing a, uh, transit pass program for downtown employees similar to one that Ohio State University has for students. Uh, there's been a lot of interest in that. We think that would shift a lot of people out of their cars because they'd have a choice between paying for parking or free transit. We think that it would free up lots of parking spaces and would be more, uh, cost-effective than building a bunch of garages, partly because we may be... The demand for parking may be peaking over the next five years. Predi- Many people are predicting that within five to 10 years, uh, once Uber goes to self-driving vehicles, the demand for parking will drop v- very, very deeply in, in downtown and other places as well. And so, you know, I'm not sure building more garages right now is an answer because they may be underutilized in 10 years. There may be no need for garages.

Tim Fulton 13:34They may become obsolete.

Cleve Ricksecker 13:35Yeah.

Tim Fulton 13:35So how do you feel about, for instance, the, the Long Street Garage that was just announced would be, uh, overhauled and reopened.

Cleve Ricksecker 13:44Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 13:44When you see stories like that, is it d- I assume you're not angry about it, but do you simply shake your head and say, "Well, that's probably not the direction we should be going. That's not... Those aren't the things we should be doing"?

Cleve Ricksecker 13:56Well, you know, I, I do understand that, that, that we do need more parking in downtown. It is good that somebody, that Brad DeHayes is fixing up the, the garage on Long Street. I'm sure he'll put it to good use, and he'll make some projects happen because of that. But in a bigger sense, I do kinda scratch my head, and it is kinda frustrating to see just the lack of imagination people have about their own lives and, and how, how much people, um, conform to what is kind of expected of them. You know, the fact that people assume that you have to own a car in Columbus, for example, is just baffling to me because it is true that if you live in a suburban location or if you work in a suburban location, yeah, you need to have a car. You need to have a car for a daily commute. But if you work downtown and if you live in the center city, it's easy to live in this town with no car, but very few people imagine themselves living a different lifestyle. And, and that, it may be-

Tim Fulton 14:54Well, and for example, you lived without a car up until fairly recently.

Cleve Ricksecker 14:59Well, I did have a car for about eight years. I recently sold it, uh-

Tim Fulton 15:02Oh, congratulations

Cleve Ricksecker 15:02... four or five months ago. My son went to college. I wasn't using it. He was using it all the time. Yeah, it took me, you know, uh, two, three weeks to sort of retrain myself to live without a car. And, and once I do that, uh, it's, it's no sacrifice. It's no, it's no challenge. It's just, it's real easy. It's, it's never been easier to live without a car in, in central Columbus because of U- Uber and because of Car2Go and CoGo. Of course, I have my own bicycle, and I use that during the summer. And the bus service in places like, uh, the Short North is as good as anywhere in the world. There's always a bus. Uh, you know, you can always see a bus on High Street if you're going out to the Hi... You don't have to consult a schedule. And it's like, it's like Queen Street in Toronto. You know, there's always a, a streetcar visible on Queen Street in Toronto. Well, you know, High Street's like Queen Street.

Tim Fulton 15:49Absolutely. And you... I think going back to the parking issue, it's, uh, it should be pointed out that that is a concern of your stakeholders, the property owners, simply I imagine because of vacancy rates. What is the current state of things in terms of that vacancy rate and other, uh, maybe other improve- other things that you're hearing from your stakeholders?

Cleve Ricksecker 16:10Sure. Well, there's a chronic 15% commercial vacancy rate among office, commercial office buildings in downtown. And-

Tim Fulton 16:17How does that compare with other downtown metropolitan areas?

Cleve Ricksecker 16:22Um, that's a good question. I've not looked at the data recently. I think it would be not atypical-

Tim Fulton 16:26Okay

Cleve Ricksecker 16:27... of, of Midwestern downtowns. What's interesting, though, is that rents have been falling steadily since the '80s. Uh, you know, back in the '80s, uh, Class A office towers in downtown Columbus were commanding $30 and up a square foot, and, you know, it's $10 a foot now. And that's, you know, that's real numbers. That's not, that's not, uh... That doesn't even account for inflation since the '80s. And, and that's very concerning. I mean, how can you maintain, uh, a, a, a h- an office tower, uh, with, with those kinds of, of rents? I mean, there is a operating cost on top of that, maybe $8 a s- a square foot operating cost. But one thing that separates Columbus from other cities that I've heard is that unlike other cities, our rents con- are either stagnant or continue to fall. And I think that, that is in large part because of lack of transit options in this, in this, uh, city. Cities that have robust transit systems and multimodal transit systems, um, their office rents are going up, their vacancy rates are going down. Um, but there are certain... There's a class of cities like Columbus where there's no particular locational advantage to being downtown, and there isn't the discipline as a population to, to walk and take the bus. There's an expectation of being able to drive every place here, and that's hurting. That's hurting our, our city. And it's very frustrating, too, for me because I hear people all the time saying, "Ah, I wish, I wish Columbus were more urban. Oh, if we only had... If we o- were only like Portland, Oregon" or, "Only... If we only had a, a, an environment like Boston." Well, those same people oftentimes are making no effort to live that life here and, and, and can't seem to translate their wish to live a more pedestrian, um, lifestyle to their day-to-day routine in Columbus. I hear that f- with people that travel to Europe, how wonderful European cities are, but there's no attempt when they get back to live that life.

Tim Fulton 18:23Don't you think, though, that they're A- as a kid who grew up on North Campus and, you know, was taking the public transportation by 12, I am certainly aware of a perception of what it's like to ride the COTA bus. And you state, and I agree with you, that it is safe and easy to use, but there's certainly a perception that it is not either of those two things.

Cleve Ricksecker 18:47Yeah.

Tim Fulton 18:48Where do you think that comes from?

Cleve Ricksecker 18:49It's so funny, and you, you hit something on the nose. You started riding a bus as a 12-year-old.

Tim Fulton 18:53Right.

Cleve Ricksecker 18:54I had all my kids, I have three kids, I had them all riding the bus by themselves when they were 12 as well. And people would say, "Oh my God, isn't that dangerous? Have your kids ride the bus?" And my response is always, "Well, when was the last time you read about a kid dying on a bus? And when was the last time you read about a kid dying in a car accident, and you give your kids the keys to the car?" The safest thing a parent can do is not... is to encourage their kids not to drive and to take public transit. But you're right, the perception is, and I think it's a lot, a lot of that perception is, is racially motivated and motivated by class issues. And as much as we don't like to admit it to ourselves, people are very, um, conscious of race and class in this town. And I think a lot of the reason why people don't ride the bus is because poor Black people ride the bus. Uh, and it, of course, depends on what end of town you're on, but if you're on the east side of town, you look at COTA as a, a poor Black bus system. And, and I think that, um, again, it's a very uncomfortable topic for people, but I think that subconsciously, um, there are some racial issues here.

Tim Fulton 19:57It's certainly not the bus system that's causing a racial issue. Could you point to anything that is causing it or not, uh, solving it?

Cleve Ricksecker 20:07Well, the question is why don't more white people take the bus, isn't it?

Tim Fulton 20:10Yes.

Cleve Ricksecker 20:10And, and so and then why don't more white people enroll their kids in the Columbus City Schools?

Tim Fulton 20:14Yes.

Cleve Ricksecker 20:15Um, it, it's... And, and you know, i- what's interesting about both is that I see people flee the Columbus City Schools on a, on a constant basis, and of the white middle class and upper middle class people I see flee the Columbus City Schools, probably nine out of 10 never even bother to check them out.

Tim Fulton 20:33That was about to be my next question. Right.

Cleve Ricksecker 20:35And, and the ones who do check it out, many stay. They discover that, that there are, that it's a much more complex system than you read about in the paper, that we don't have 100% failing schools, that the test scores of the schools are very much tied into the economic, uh, mix in the s- in the school. And where schools, uh, have high concentrations of poverty, unfortunately, uh, the test scores tend to come in lower. And where schools have a mix of middle and upper middle income people as well as poor students, the scores are as good or better as any suburban school. Uh, so it's not the schools. I mean, it's not to say there aren't problems in the Columbus City Schools, but I will say the biggest single issue, the biggest single problem in the Columbus City Schools is that middle and upper middle income people have left the system. And, and, uh, yes, what they've done is they've left a, a system that's largely mired in poverty, probably 80% of the schools are, but any, any parent, any middle, upper middle or middle income parent, w- uh, Black or white, uh, in the city schools who have their kids enrolled in a, in a school that is mixed will tell you that they're fabulous. Yeah, Columbus, I, I was really shocked to read, uh, several months ago that the Columbus is one of the two most economically segregated metros in, in the US. And, and I've always intuitively felt that's true in Columbus. If you look at, at what's happening with the movement out of Franklin County, for example, you know, the white upper middle income people are leaving the county. Um, and I-270 has become the Berlin Wall, if you will, of, uh, class and race in this region. It is disheartening to see the, the, the economic segregation that's taking place. And, you know, if you're a kid growing up in Franklinton or, uh, in, you know, South Linden, um, 40, 50, 60 years ago, you lived near doctors and you lived near engineers and lawyers. The m- you know, neighborhoods may have been racially segregated 60 years ago, but economically they were, they were very rich in variety, and you've, we've lost that now. And I think that the economic segregation that we have today in many ways is more damning and more damaging than the racial segregation we had, uh, you know, several generations ago in this community.

Tim Fulton 22:55I think that I agree with you, Ben. I wanna, I wanna look at that a lot more. Um, bringing it back to downtown, we've talked a lot about sort of the business owners, um, just by virtue of the fact that they're the property owners. Um, there seems to be a resurgence in residency downtown. What do you ascribe that to?

Cleve Ricksecker 23:13It is interesting. Um, there's, there's been a pent-up demand for living downtown for probably two or three decades now. And, and the rule of thumb is i- in any metropolitan area, uh, that given the, the, a variety of places to live, you know, price points and styles, that anywhere from one to 2% of a metro's population will choose to live downtown, whether or not there are retail amenities or other amenities located there. So for Columbus, Central Ohio, that means that given the right variety of housing, uh, product available in downtown, somewhere between 18,000 and 36,000 people would choose to live downtown. We haven't even begun to tap the, the demand for downtown, uh, residential living. And, um, as neighborhoods form in places like, uh, River South, uh, or north of Broad Street along the High Street corridor, and neighborhood services start popping up, the demand will only increase. So, you know, it's, uh... cities aren't the smoky, uh, loud, uncomfortable places they were 50 and 60 years ago. And, and for that... And, and s- and a certain percentage of the population doesn't wanna drive every place, you know, drive for a quart of milk or, you know... The ph- the physical separations that, uh, we have, uh, in the outer belt aren't appealing to everyone. And so I think we'll see continued growth. Uh, and I think we'll continue to see the growth, uh- In the pre-1955 boundaries of Columbus, the, the... And, and those are the areas within the Columbus City Schools that were built in a grid pattern with, um, you know, houses that had sidewalks and front yards and, and, uh, uh, more walkable neighborhoods. There's a, there's a limited amount of that product, and I think more, more people are discovering that's a much more civilized way to live than in a, in an auto-dependent-

Tim Fulton 25:06Mm-hmm

Cleve Ricksecker 25:06... um, environment.

Tim Fulton 25:08So downtown, you would describe it to, first of all, there simply isn't enough product. There isn't enough, you know, places for people to live downtown.

Cleve Ricksecker 25:16Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 25:17Um, it's getting easier to live downtown in terms of the amenities available within walking distance. I guess I perceive that when you're talking about economic disparity, these are middle income to upper middle income people, mostly without children. Do you see that changing?

Cleve Ricksecker 25:33No. It's a very... It's very expensive to develop housing in downtown, and so the only way to make housing affordable in downtown, of course, is to subsidize it. And, and there is some of that taking place. I mean, downtown, the housing stock in downtown is probably still 25% affordable, in other words, uh, for lower in- for low-income people. And so downtown still is a very mixed, uh, economic residential environment. The new construction tends to be, um, expensive. Um, the rents tend to be expensive. It, it's expensive to develop. There are continuing efforts to build in, lock in low-income housing in downtown, um, and I'm proud that the business community in downtown has been, has sort of led the effort to make sure that we continue to have affor- truly affordable housing in downtown. But, uh, it's a challenge keeping that balance.

Tim Fulton 26:22Absolutely. Talk a little bit about your relationship with the city and sort of how that goes. You're doing capital improvements that very well could be done by them, and so is there a give and take there, um, in terms of how, how, how does that relationship go?

Cleve Ricksecker 26:35Yeah. It's, i- it's funny 'cause it's, it's a, um it's, i- it's a slightly schizophrenic relationship. 95% of the time it's, it is working very closely with the city. We partner with the city on, on, uh, safety issues, on issues, uh, having to do with street trees and, um, you know, keeping the streets and sidewalks clear of snow and clean, and we work very closely and very positively with the city. But because private property owners, uh, control the special improvement districts, occasionally there's a little bit, little bit of, uh, tension between, uh, the property owners and, and the city. Not a lot, but, but it is a separate organization. Um, and, and so in that sense, uh, it, it can be a little schizophrenic.

Tim Fulton 27:19Can you give me an example of that, minor or large-

Cleve Ricksecker 27:22Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 27:22... in terms of, you know, pushback in either way?

Cleve Ricksecker 27:25Um, yeah. Uh, so for example, there was an effort several years ago to eliminate the bike patrol. The, the division of police wanted to eliminate the bike patrol in downtown.

Tim Fulton 27:34Because of cost, I assume, or-

Cleve Ricksecker 27:36Because of cost, and I think it was during the time when the city was going through some financial issues.

Tim Fulton 27:40Okay.

Cleve Ricksecker 27:41And in downtown, the, the, the reason... The bike patrol is really helpful because they are very proactive in their policing. They're not, they're not tied to a radio and doing 911 calls. And so much of the challenge in downtown is maintaining order, um, not so much dealing with a big crime problem because downtown's always been a very safe police precinct. And, and so there was a real fear if the bike patrol were eliminated that downtown would lose that proactive problem-solving, uh, policing that is so important for a pedestrian, uh, environment. And so the owners got very vocal about that and expected staff to get very vocal about that. And then there have been a few other examples, not many. It's... I'll tell you what, working with the city of Columbus has been a wonderful experience over the last, uh, 16 years. The city has been very supportive of not only the downtown special improvement districts, but the others that have been created because the leadership here is smart enough to know that they're leveraging resources.

Tim Fulton 28:40Right.

Cleve Ricksecker 28:40And, and it, it, it really makes an, uh, an impact on, on, uh, uh, you know, it's... You, downtown, our two, our two CIDS downtown, it's like a professional block watch in many ways. And, and so, you know-

Tim Fulton 28:53Well, it is a professional block I mean-

Cleve Ricksecker 28:55Yeah

Tim Fulton 28:55... I mean it, yeah, it is. And it was interesting to me to see in the last election cycle how Mayor Ginther and most of the council candidates held up downtown as, "Look what we can do." It seems to me as though a lot of those improvements are a direct result of the property owner, owner sort of pooling resources and getting a lot of that done. Certainly the city had a hand in it, but because of that, I heard a lot of, "What about this neighborhood," and, "What about, you know, what about this blighted area of town?" Looking at Columbus, I'm asking you to step outside your role a little bit. Looking at Columbus as a whole and sort of the pockets that exist, what is the possible solution from the city? Is it, is... Do you believe that it's more CIDS? Do you think a CID could even function in other areas of town?

Cleve Ricksecker 29:47Well, yes. CIDS can function in any area of town where there aren't a lot of, uh, properties that are tax delinquent. If you get a lot of properties that are tax delinquent, it, it becomes more difficult. I will say that th- the, the, that the issue is not and never has been downtown versus the in-town neighborhoods, and here's the reason why. Downtown is a glue that holds the region together, and it's, and it's, and, and by, and by that I mean that if jobs leave downtown and move to the outer belt, so goes the residential population. People in this community typically don't like to commute more than about 30 minutes. So if you draw a, a 30-minute radius around downtown, it takes you out to the outer belt.

Tim Fulton 30:31Mm-hmm.

Cleve Ricksecker 30:32What that means is that a job in downtown helps to stabilize every neighborhood between downtown and the outer belt. When a job moves to the outer belt, the commuting radius then moves to not only the- Immediate outlining, outlying counties, but oftentimes even a second county outside of, uh, the outer belt. And so a lot of the destabilization that has come f- in places like Hilltop and Linden is a result of these jobs moving out to the outer belt, because no longer is, is there any incentive to live, you know, inside the Berlin Wall, uh, uh, anymore. And so, uh, I think it's a mistake for anyone to think that downtown is not important to every single inner city neighborhood, every single neighborhood between, uh, really downtown and, and the outer belt. Uh, it is. And if you don't have a healthy downtown, you can't build healthy neighborhoods, uh, particularly the ones that have gone through a lot of stress with the foreclosures and, and, uh, uh, d- divestment over the last, uh, 20 years or so, 30 years. Um, but the other thing is downtown provides a tax base. You know, I always say that, hmm, the best thing for this community is for rich people to live downtown. And, and the reason is that rich people, uh, bring demands for public services. They pay taxes. You know, if you had... If you have a millionaire or somebody, a multimillionaire who's gonna build a million-dollar home, do you want that million-dollar home to be smack dab in the middle of the city, or do you want that million-dollar home to be in Delaware County, where the taxes do no good, where the improved services can't be enjoyed by everybody else? You want that millionaire to be right in the middle of town. And, and, uh, and, and that gets back to my comment about economic mix. You know, it... You can't solve problems in a segregated community. You have to maintain a, uh, a mix of wealthy, upper middle income, middle income, and poor people, and only then does everyone benefit. You know, rich people benefit from being in proximity with poor people, because you learn something. You, you appreciate your status in ways that if you, if you live in a, in a single income, a single class suburb, you can't appreciate what it is to be upper middle class, because everyone looks like you and makes the same amount of money. Uh, but to live in a mixed economic neighborhood, if you're middle class and making 50,000 a year, you can thank God that you've got the, the blessing of, of having a home and, and a steady job. And, and I think emotionally it's really healthy to have that kind of appreciation.

Tim Fulton 33:08What would you suggest for a blighted neighborhood that, you know, has an active, uh, area commission and, you know, how can they help themselves, I guess?

Cleve Ricksecker 33:18Yeah. You know, the, the most difficult thing about a neighbor- a neighborhood that's distressed is that so many of those neighborhoods don't have any real champions who are developers, people who have the capacity to, to fix properties up and to create places that businesses wanna move and, and people wanna move. And, you know, look at a place like the Hilltop, uh, which I think is one of the most beautiful neighborhoods in central Ohio. And, you know, Westgate of course is very middle class, but other areas of Hilltop, it's, it's, it's one... It's really one of my favorite neighborhoods. And, and I fantasize about this place because if you go to the top of the hill on West Broad Street, for example, that building stock is as good as anything in the Short North. Um, and yet what that neighborhood lacks is, is a, a Sandy Wood or a Stelios Giannopoulus, who in the Short North back in the early '80s took the risk and started redeveloping properties and, and mixing it up in the Short North, which, you know, back in the early '80s looked as bad or worse than the Hilltop looks-

Tim Fulton 34:17Mm-hmm

Cleve Ricksecker 34:17... today, by the way. Um, and so, uh, y- I guess a neighborhood, it, it needs, it needs a champion. It needs somebody who can get things done. And, um, and I think where, uh, neighborhoods struggle, uh, there is a, there is just an absence of people who are active and able to do that.

Tim Fulton 34:34With the new administration, a large turnover on council, any thoughts on that? Positive improvement, looking forward to change, concerned about lack of continuity in those offices?

Cleve Ricksecker 34:46Well, I'm delighted that Andy Ginther got elected mayor because he has been around long enough. He's got a, a, a thorough understanding of just how challenging the issues are, and there is no quick fix for anything, and he's been around long enough to know that and know that you, you, you, you, you know, know ways to move the needle, um, to improve, uh, various neighborhoods. And, and on council I'm kind of, kind of thrilled by the, the fact we have all these youngsters on council, which is kinda nice because I think, uh... And I've met quite a few of the, of the members of council. Uh, they've got a, a really good, positive, um, sort of view of urban living and, and I think are people who wanna do the right thing but who have some vision for the city. And they're young, so they'll be around for a while. So I, I think the combination of, you know, the combination of Mayor Ginther, who is, um, well-grounded, experienced, uh, with a lot of, a lot of these newcomers on, on council is, is fabulous.

Tim Fulton 35:49Good.

Cleve Ricksecker 35:49It should be fun to watch over the next, you know, 5, 10 years.

Tim Fulton 35:52Absolutely. Great. Thank you for your time, sir.

Cleve Ricksecker 35:55You're welcome.

Tim Fulton 35:59Sitting down here with Jacob Taylor, managing partner of Civitas Now, who also happens to be carless in Columbus. How long have you been without a car?

Jacob Taylor 36:09Uh, almost three years now.

Tim Fulton 36:11Okay. And what was the motivation for it?

Jacob Taylor 36:13Uh, well, I, I both live and work downtown. Uh, and my biggest pain with anything with my car was parking tickets.

Tim Fulton 36:22Okay.

Jacob Taylor 36:23Yeah. So I'm the king. I will get a parking ticket every time I park my car-

Tim Fulton 36:28Okay

Jacob Taylor 36:28... with, without, without question. I have no idea how they find me.

Tim Fulton 36:31Is it... Well, you are parked.

Jacob Taylor 36:34Uh, they... No, they have, they must have a tracking device. They know every time I have an expired meter. So what would happen is I would get these unreal parking tickets, right? And- I realized I was paying, like, hundreds of thou- dollars, if not thousands of dollars a year just on, like, paying to park my car in a place where, like, it should cost me quarters at a time, right?

Tim Fulton 36:53Right.

Jacob Taylor 36:53So it w- it was a mix of that, uh, and just an overall frustration with having to deal with my car. So I'm, I'm 25 now. Uh, obviously three or- three years ago, a little over, I had just turned 21, so bar hopping and, and having a car just definitely made a lot of sense either, right?

Tim Fulton 37:08Right.

Jacob Taylor 37:08So it was just something else to deal with. I was always coming back the next day to pick my car up. It would have a parking ticket on it 'cause I left it to go to the bar somewhere, and was smart enough not to drive. And I think that overall I just stopped thinking that it was necessary.

Tim Fulton 37:20Okay.

Jacob Taylor 37:21Uh, and had... I eventually decided that, um, I, I was tired of dealing with it. I didn't want a car payment. I didn't want gas. I didn't want maintenance. I didn't want insurance. I didn't want to pay the parking tickets. I didn't wanna have the, the thought space of, of a car. So just slowly but surely, eventually just got rid of it, sold it, and just was able to kind of be, be mobile and in other ways to get around Columbus.

Tim Fulton 37:43You live and work downtown, so you-

Jacob Taylor 37:45I do

Tim Fulton 37:45... I assume you do a lot of walking.

Jacob Taylor 37:47I do a lot of walking.

Tim Fulton 37:47Okay.

Jacob Taylor 37:47So I walk to and from work every day.

Tim Fulton 37:49Okay. What challenges have you experienced not having a car?

Jacob Taylor 37:53Yeah, I would say that the big challenge is, like, uh, the nes- like the, the necessity for, like, grocery shopping-

Tim Fulton 38:00Okay

Jacob Taylor 38:00... uh, and things like that. You know, I, I still do l- while I walk to work, it's still a mile walk. Uh, so when I'm doing that, I have to, like, pick my groceries up after work and walk home and it's kind of out of the way and things like that. So I end up having to only be able to buy, uh, rations for a couple days at a time, right?

Tim Fulton 38:20Right.

Jacob Taylor 38:20So I'm not, like, carrying, you know, uh, a shopping cart home, right?

Tim Fulton 38:23Right.

Jacob Taylor 38:23So I would say that's tough, right? You know, but it's, it's still trying to learn the practices of, of, of, of other opportunities to do that. Uh, so I would say, like, just day to day there are still a ton of challenges. I mean, getting to happy hour, there's still a ton of challenges.

Tim Fulton 38:37Right.

Jacob Taylor 38:37Uh, but then the same challenges on the other side are with a car. Ugh, I have to either short term park. Uh, I've gotta get downtown through traffic, right? So the same, you know, I have problems like, oh, am I gonna get there quick enough with an Uber? Am I gonna get there quick enough on foot? Uh, I think the other side of the coin is that I would have s- just, just different problems, uh, uh, for the challenge. So, uh, yeah, I think those are just off the top what I'm thinking.

Tim Fulton 39:01As we continue to have, uh, you know, different modes of transportation in Columbus, Uber, uh, Car2Go, CoGo, Bike Share-

Jacob Taylor 39:08Sure

Tim Fulton 39:09... was there sort of a breaking point for you that you were like, "Okay, now it's okay for me to be without a car"?

Jacob Taylor 39:14The Cbus.

Tim Fulton 39:15Okay.

Jacob Taylor 39:16Definitely. One, I would say the Cbus, I used to live in, you know, on the other side of town by the Brewery District, uh, which is just south of downtown. And, uh, there was a Cbus stop directly almost a block away from my house. Uh, and what I realized was, oh my gosh, I really don't go anywhere else in Columbus other than the Cbus route.

Tim Fulton 39:35Okay.

Jacob Taylor 39:36Uh, like, I mean, from a young professional, I was realizing that I could hit grocery stores, happy hour, work, and home on the same bus route, which had absolutely zero barrier to entry.

Tim Fulton 39:47Right.

Jacob Taylor 39:47I walk over, I get on, I get off when it stops.

Tim Fulton 39:50Right.

Jacob Taylor 39:50I mean, it is just, uh... I, I, it ran every 12 minutes. I, I, I didn't have to think about scheduling the time. Whenever I was ready to leave somewhere, I was only gonna be within 12 minutes of, of missing, uh, that bus, which is just an unbelievable way of thinking about transit, right? Uh, so I think the Cbus was that moment when I realized, oh, I really, really don't need this car.

Tim Fulton 40:10The Cbus is free. Initially, they said it may cost at some point. If they put, like, a fare on the Cbus, would you continue to depend on it?

Jacob Taylor 40:19Yes.

Tim Fulton 40:19Okay.

Jacob Taylor 40:20Uh, I, I don't-

Tim Fulton 40:20It is something you'd be willing to pay for.

Jacob Taylor 40:22I do. I'm, I'm not carrying quarters around though, right?

Tim Fulton 40:25Right.

Jacob Taylor 40:25I, like, there's no cash, no quarter. I don't know if I even... I, I like the swipe card idea, but it's just one more loyalty program I have to add to my very many other ones, right?

Tim Fulton 40:33Right.

Jacob Taylor 40:33Uh, so I think, again, just it's just it's, it is adding more barriers to entry. If the swipe card happens to be it or, again, I've gotta reload that. I've gotta probably have membership. Just other things that are, are a part of that. Uh, I think right now the Cbus i- in hopes can still be subsidized by its corporate partners and for COTA to kinda continue to have an opportunity to raise money and keep that free. Uh-

Tim Fulton 40:52And full disclosure- ... COTA is a client of your company, Civitas, now.

Jacob Taylor 40:56It is. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 40:57So.

Jacob Taylor 40:57Yeah. Uh, yeah, definitely. Uh, bef- before and after it being a client of ours, uh, just are a big supporter of. Uh, and I think that, um, COTA continues to be thought of as a, as a, as a bus transit system, but they're, it is a Central Ohio Transit Authority, right?

Tim Fulton 41:13Right.

Jacob Taylor 41:13So we hope that, uh, in the future in Columbus, uh, I hope that COTA can offer other modes of transportation, uh, or be a partner and a thought leader in other modes of transportation. But yeah, the Cbus is still the coolest thing for YPs, I think, downtown.

Tim Fulton 41:26Do you utilize, uh, Car2Go?

Jacob Taylor 41:28No. No.

Tim Fulton 41:29Why, why not?

Jacob Taylor 41:30I don't wanna dr- so being carless is also part of not wanting to drive.

Tim Fulton 41:34Okay.

Jacob Taylor 41:34So I think that's the two different things a lot of people don't realize is that there's a choice of being carless, uh, which is like I don't have a car, but if I had the chance... Someone put me behind the wheel, of course I'd drive 'cause it's convenient, right?

Tim Fulton 41:46And you are still a licensed driver.

Jacob Taylor 41:48Uh, my license expired two days ago. I'm not gonna renew it.

Tim Fulton 41:51Oh. C- c- congratulations?

Jacob Taylor 41:53Yeah. A congratulations should be in order. I, uh, yeah, this will, this will be the first time ever in my life I should have to renew my driver's license since I've been 18.

Tim Fulton 42:00Happy birthday, by the way.

Jacob Taylor 42:01Thank you so much.

Tim Fulton 42:02You're welcome.

Jacob Taylor 42:03Uh, and I, I, I don't wanna renew. I, I don't plan on it. Uh, and I mean, I haven't drove in I don't know how long. I don't need my driver's license. I need a state ID to get, uh, get places for a photo identification. That's it. 'Cause my ca- my driver's license has done only that for me in the past two years.

Tim Fulton 42:19What would you like to see Columbus have to better enable people to be without a car?

Jacob Taylor 42:25I would say that the, if the barrier to... The thing that, like, is most beneficial to me is walkability.

Tim Fulton 42:30Okay.

Jacob Taylor 42:31Right? Whether we have options like CoGo- Cartago, Uber, Lyft, COTA. At the very core, we, we, we s- we still move on our own without, without a, a resource. So to be able to do that, we have to still have neighborhoods that are walkable, right? Uh, and be able to get from one neighborhood to the other without there being this, you know, us having to cross four lanes of traffic or, you know, no sidewalks at all. I think if you look at going south out of downtown, even on High Street, Fourth, and Third, uh, those are dangerous, right?

Zach Hinkle 42:59Right.

Jacob Taylor 43:00I th- if you're walking to go back to German Village, like, I mean, there's a 35, 40 miles m- miles per hour cars or higher driving here, five lanes of traffic. Uh, you know, and not a lot of stoppable moments along the way. Um, and it's ju- I think it's tough. Uh, so for me, I live here in Discovery District, and it's extremely walkable. Uh, I mean, CCD is attached to, like, you know, the museum and then Topiary Park, and that's usually the route I take. So I think for us, you know, I think we still lack some of just the overall walkability of a city, where, like, can I get from one side to the other? I mean, thankfully, we have a very flat landscape. Couldn't imagine having anything else at this point. But, uh, I think that overall we still need folks to be understood, like, all of our neighborhoods can be walkable, um, and they should be able to back and forth without even thinking about the other resources as a second choice.

Zach Hinkle 43:48Great. Jacob, thank you so much for your time.

Jacob Taylor 43:51Killer. Thanks, Tim.

Zach Hinkle 43:54At one point, I had three separate licenses for operating vehicles. Uh, a lot of people were like, "Oh, you must not have a license." But I'm like, "Actually, I have three." I had a, a Ohio driver's license, I had an Ohio motorcycle temporary permit, and I had a, uh, City of Columbus issued pedicab operator's license. Part of the qualifications to get the license, you have to take, take the same physical that a truck driver would have to take or a taxi cab driver, and I think the U- all the Uber type people have to do that too now. It wasn't too physical. I just went to the CVS. I don't have my own doctor. It's a real standard thing that it's sort of like the, a bare minimum physical that they just pump out of their offices. I'm not a owner/operator anymore. If you're just trying to stay in the inner city, downtown and, like, a few miles out, that's all super bikeable. Uh, that's all, uh, very well-networked with the bus system in, like, maybe a three-mile radius, uh, especially on the north side. Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., the buses are pretty dense during that time. I use the Cartago's, uh, starting just this last spring, and, uh, I use it maybe twice a week. I take it to my trivia night 'cause I don't wanna show up too sweaty from the bike 'cause I wanna put on a professional look. Groceries. If you wake up at somebody else's house, you can use it to get to your house. It's pretty handy, but once again, that's only if you're only staying in the inner city. Um, I get lots of rides from friends. I can get a ride to go all kinds of places tonight if I just ask somebody, and then girls always have cars. I think they tend to have cars way more than guys do. Probably their dad gets them for safety. I walk the streets at night a lot. You don't see too many women, but there are guys walking around. Um, it started, I think, in high school. You know, that was the thing to do. You get a car, you get a license. I just never really, uh, fell into that. Never owned one. I mean, I've, I've always had them accessible. There's just cars, cars sit around most of the time, and you can ask people if you can borrow them.

Jacob Taylor 45:52Right.

Zach Hinkle 45:52And they usually say yeah. I can get ch- cars, trucks, vans. I mean, maybe that's some sort of mooching. I don't, I don't do it to people, like, habitually. It started, like I said, it started in high school. I never really had... I didn't get a license till I wassss almost 19. And, uh, well, I, I took the bus through senior, and I was like, "Why not take it? It's free. They pick you up and drop you off. What a great service. This is magical. I'll just keep using this." And I remember I finally kinda had a car. It was a van, um, by the time I was, like, in college. And I remember we had to get, like, an alternator replaced, and it was, like, $400. And I was like, "What? That's a lot of money just, you know, for something I can't even really see." I had that van for a little bit longer, and then a couple years go by, and I was living in Columbus going to Ohio State, and I started picking up cycling a lot. And I liked it. I became friends with cyclists, and I started getting better bikes and just starting that skill. I, uh, just sort of became so competent at it that I, I, I didn't even start thinking about cars anymore. And at the same time, I also got into sort of an environmental activism and, like, sssort of understanding, like, the mobility history of American cities and how the car has sort of has devastated neighborhoods and cities over the last maybe 70 years through, like, freeway construction and just demolishing places for parking lots. I wrote a, uh, senior thesis on it. Well, I remember I started the thesis with a quote from a, some sort of Nordic geographer or academic guy. He said that in the last half of the 20th century, it was possible to walk on the moon, but made... It was getting more difficult to walk across the street because of this auto dominance, auto centrism, some people like to call it. It gobbles up a lot of land. You have a lot of imperial sur- surface for, like, rainwater. I, I don't like it at all. I, I think, uh, cars are aggressive and ugly. I think they're, um... I mean, have you ever hung out on a freeway? Try it for 30 minutes. It's, it is loud. It's trashy. It's not personal at all. Hang out at, like, a busy intersection, like Morris and Carl or something sometime. I do d- I've done this before, and, like, I've measured crosswalk lengths and timing and how people outside of their cars are trying to deal with this, like, sort of terrain they're stuck in. I do think you're missing a lot. You're going th- through things too fast, and you're so enclosed. You see so, so much less. It's really weird. Like, say you're at, like, multi-stack inter- intersection, stacks are your lanes. You're all at a red light and everybody's got their windows up. Say there's like 20 cars stopped there. You're waiting for a red light. If there's 20 cars, let's say there's 30 people. Now imagine if you like disappeared the cars and then there'd be 30 people all standing together like face to face. But they're not. They're all in these like boxes. And so I think it kind of like separates people that way. You know the term roll up your windows, you know, when you're going through a neighborhood or you see somebody lock your doors. I don't lock them. I might say hi to that guy first. And I hate having windows down anyway. How are you supposed to holler at people? Or somebody's got like a cool hat or something. Yeah, hey man. And people are like, hey, thanks. I've developed this like this sixth sense of transportation. I think by not always knowing that there's a car available for you, you've like I've created like this this extra ability to get around kind of it might seem kind of reckless and unplanned, but it works. But yeah, I think I have like a sixth sense of like geography and mobility. I get kind of a personal pleasure out of like seeing how I can like arrange transportation. A car is an anchor. You're always like, oh, I got to go to my car. Oh, I got to check on my car. People are always you have to have insurance for it. And there's all this you're in this whole other like legal realm of responsibilities. You can't drink as much if you got to drive everywhere. I think I think you've got I think you've got a lot of restrictions when you have your own car. I'd love to see them build some, you know, rail between the major cities. I would use that a couple of times a year. The cities everywhere I go is pretty great for cycling. The roads are smooth. At the bar the other night, this kid was talking about how he likes to go skateboarding. And this drunk guy goes, well, they got a lot of smooth streets around here. And I was like, he's kind of right. Like the city's done great on keeping things paved. Nice asphalt. They've done a lot of bike lanes and sharrows and extra signage and a little bit too much in some areas for cycling facilities. I'm OK with them all. If they're here or not, it wouldn't bother me. I say that they're all bike lanes, every lane on the street. The city's doing great for it. I say the cyclists need to get better, become more confident with it, like follow the rules better. Stay out in your lane. Don't wear sandals. Don't have headphones in. Don't try to walk a dog with a bike. Pay attention. It's a really amazing skill that I still keep getting better at. Well, for sure I'll see you soon.

Tim Fulton 51:35Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, more information on what we discussed today can be found at theconfluencecast.com in this week's show notes. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, your contacts, your auto mechanic. We can be reached by email at info at theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I am your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.