Composer Mark Lomax, II

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week I sat down with local composer and drummer, Dr. Mark Lomax II. We discussed Mark's background and projects, and we dove deep in on music. Here is a brief rundown on what we discussed: creating a vision for your artistic expression, the history of Black music in Columbus, the dialogue within music, and specifically how we view music differently than other cultures, how music should be a function of society rather than a byproduct of it, the idea that music unlocks consciousness, the need for support on what Mark calls art music, why it's important to invest in art, and why it's our artists who are going to help us define Columbus to the world. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by Art Makes Columbus, Columbus Makes Art, featuring stories about our city's incredible artists, stories full of inspiration, challenge, passion, and success. For videos, articles, an up-to-the-minute calendar of events, and an artist directory, visit columbusmakesart.com, the resource for all things arts and culture in the capital city. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Mark Lomax II, composer, drummer, educator, collaborator, producer. Mark, how are you, sir?

Mark Lomax II 2:05I'm fine. How are you, Tim?

Tim Fulton 2:06Doing well. How do you introduce yourself to people? You have a day job at the Columbus Foundation. You are also an accomplished composer and drummer, uh, performing with groups o- all over the country, I assume the world.

Mark Lomax II 2:17Mm, sometimes. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:19Okay. Okay. You're also a father.

Mark Lomax II 2:20Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:21Uh-

Mark Lomax II 2:21And husband

Tim Fulton 2:22... and husband. Tell us about your work and what you are currently working on and what you're trying to accomplish with it.

Mark Lomax II 2:28So vocationally, I've been a musician all my life, playing drums since I was two, and became professional at 12. Um, preacher's kid.

Tim Fulton 2:37Okay.

Mark Lomax II 2:38Uh, my dad's a pastor of a church in Atlanta, and my mother is a music minister, so I grew up working for them-

Tim Fulton 2:43Okay

Mark Lomax II 2:44... and still do to a great extent, uh, 'cause you never just, you never outgrow that.

Tim Fulton 2:49Right.

Mark Lomax II 2:49Um, but, uh, began playing for children's choirs and getting $85 a month, uh, when I was working for my mom.

Tim Fulton 2:57That's at 12 though, right?

Mark Lomax II 2:58That's at 12.

Tim Fulton 2:58So that's not bad.

Mark Lomax II 2:59That's not bad at all.

Tim Fulton 3:00Right.

Mark Lomax II 3:00She didn't have to buy me any video games or- ... anything. And then I became a professional jazz musician, uh, at 14-

Tim Fulton 3:07Okay

Mark Lomax II 3:08... uh, playing my first gig with Gene Walker and Hank Marr-

Tim Fulton 3:11Okay

Mark Lomax II 3:11... uh, two legendary musicians that were in our community back then, who have since passed. And then I became enamored with drummers like Tony Williams and Elvin Jones and, uh, Max Roach and Ed Blackwell, and being a young, precocious musician, I, I saw, you know, new possibilities in their work, and wanted to emulate, uh, my style, uh, based on, you know, the precedent they had set. And so, uh, trying to do that, uh, it put me in a odd position with local musicians-

Tim Fulton 3:46Okay

Mark Lomax II 3:46... 'cause I was experimenting a lot-

Tim Fulton 3:48Okay

Mark Lomax II 3:48... and they didn't want that. They just wanted you to show up and play the gig.

Tim Fulton 3:52Because you were, you were the young precocious one who was, like, trying to change things that were already established, is what you're saying.

Mark Lomax II 3:57Exactly.

Tim Fulton 3:57Gotcha.

Mark Lomax II 3:57Exactly. So I've never been one for, uh, structure. I, I'll lead people who, you know, are leaders-

Tim Fulton 4:04Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 4:04... but I won't lead, uh, or follow fools.

Tim Fulton 4:08Okay.

Mark Lomax II 4:08So a lot of musicians, they, you know... I won't say they're fools, but they're foolish-

Tim Fulton 4:12Uh-huh

Mark Lomax II 4:13... you know, in the sense that they don't create a vision for their own artistic expression.

Tim Fulton 4:18Okay.

Mark Lomax II 4:18You know, you listen to the records and you say, "I wanna play like Miles Davis," and then you're 60 years old playing like Miles Davis, but Miles Davis never tried to play like Miles Davis.

Tim Fulton 4:26Right. Well, he never kept playing like Miles Davis, I guess.

Mark Lomax II 4:28Well, that, that's what I'm saying.

Tim Fulton 4:29Right.

Mark Lomax II 4:30You know, so he established Miles with, uh, Charlie Parker in the '40s and '50s-

Tim Fulton 4:35Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 4:35... but by the late '50s he had become a different Miles, and in the mid '60s he was a different Miles. In the '70s, he yet again changed.

Tim Fulton 4:42Yes. I have those albums at home.

Mark Lomax II 4:43Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:44I don't know why my parents wanted them, but they certainly did.

Mark Lomax II 4:48Right. And, and you know, all the great musicians, the great artists-

Tim Fulton 4:50Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 4:51... you know, around the world have always evolved.

Tim Fulton 4:53Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 4:53And that's one of the earlier lessons I took from that. And, and in trying to continually evolve, you know, it often put me at odds with the, quote-unquote, "jazz establishment."

Tim Fulton 5:04Okay. You're an adult man in your, what, late 30s?

Mark Lomax II 5:07Yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:08Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:08I'm artistically still a kid.

Tim Fulton 5:09Right. But you, so- What I'm saying is you've been doing this for 25 years at this point.

Mark Lomax II 5:14Right, right.

Tim Fulton 5:14Talk about your training a little bit. Was it pretty much self-taught from, you know, 12 to 14?

Mark Lomax II 5:20So, uh, yeah, I was self-taught, uh, just watching drummers at church.

Tim Fulton 5:24Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:24And then a great guy named James Elliot, who's local, uh, he was a drummer. He came back from LA, he was playing with, uh, Jimmy Smith, and we were playing at a church my mother and I called Centenary United Methodist.

Tim Fulton 5:37Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:37And James, I, I think that was his home church. That's the church his mother went to.

Tim Fulton 5:41Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:42And he heard me play, and he heard something in that playing, and he convinced my mom to let him take me to a club.

Tim Fulton 5:48Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:49And so, uh, I was 12 or 13 at the time, and that's how I met Hank Marr and Gene Walker.

Tim Fulton 5:56Okay.

Mark Lomax II 5:56Because, uh, James took me to Jazz and Eggs. So my mom wasn't cool enough at that time yet to let me go out to a nightclub-

Tim Fulton 6:03Right

Mark Lomax II 6:03... but she would let me go to Jazz and Eggs, which was a jam session, uh, Saturday mornings from-

Tim Fulton 6:07Okay

Mark Lomax II 6:08... uh, like 10:00 to 1:00.

Tim Fulton 6:10Probably a little bit more family-friendly.

Mark Lomax II 6:11E- exactly.

Tim Fulton 6:12Right.

Mark Lomax II 6:12It was at the Marble Gang, and, uh, you know- Everybody was there, all the local musicians just soaking up, you know, the great vibration and, uh, the history that Gene and Hank and others like Billy Brown, the drummer, uh, brought to the stage. And so, you know, James showed me how to hold the stick in a traditional d- grip, and taught me how to swing, and introduced me to Billy Brown. And I got to just sit and stare. Literally.

Tim Fulton 6:37Okay.

Mark Lomax II 6:37I'm the kid in the room just, you know, eyes out of his head watching Billy Brown and all these drummers get up there and play in a style that I had never heard before.

Tim Fulton 6:46Okay.

Mark Lomax II 6:46And then I bought the record Miles Smiles as a result of that engagement, and I heard a, a young, I think he was 16 or 18 years old, Tony Williams.

Tim Fulton 6:55Okay.

Mark Lomax II 6:56You know, just, my whole world opened up.

Tim Fulton 6:59Okay.

Mark Lomax II 6:59You know, where, you know, the drums have a very utilitarian function-

Tim Fulton 7:04Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 7:04... and, and-

Tim Fulton 7:05Well, some see it that way, I imagine

Mark Lomax II 7:06... well, in church music.

Tim Fulton 7:07Okay.

Mark Lomax II 7:08Right? Uh, in this other expression that has been called jazz, I heard a kid, Tony Williams, driving the band and, you know, creating options artistically-

Tim Fulton 7:21Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 7:21... that you could hear other musicians in the band picking up on, and then there's a dialogue. And I heard that right away, which I don't know if that's weird or unique, but it just struck me as, you know, the drums then had a voice.

Tim Fulton 7:34Okay.

Mark Lomax II 7:34And so from then, I didn't, I still didn't have formal training-

Tim Fulton 7:38Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 7:38... but I, I started listening more to African drumming.

Tim Fulton 7:40Okay.

Mark Lomax II 7:41Uh, 'cause I was familiar with the concept of the talking drum.

Tim Fulton 7:43Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 7:44Where drums, uh, particularly in, uh, West African cultures, uh, speak the dialect of the people be- 'cause it's a tonal instrument.

Tim Fulton 7:51Okay.

Mark Lomax II 7:51You can change the pitches.

Tim Fulton 7:52Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 7:53And, uh, and, and then, you know, just listening and learning and, and, and experimenting, you know?

Tim Fulton 8:01Great.

Mark Lomax II 8:02To the point where church people w- didn't like to hear me play 'cause I was experimenting everywhere-

Tim Fulton 8:06Okay

Mark Lomax II 8:06... in church, too. Um, and then I had my first formal lesson when I got to college.

Tim Fulton 8:11Okay. And so you were, we were talking a little bit before we got on mics that we both went to Fort Hayes.

Mark Lomax II 8:17Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 8:17You weren't getting formal training there.

Mark Lomax II 8:19I didn't even play drums at Fort Hayes. I played piano.

Tim Fulton 8:21Okay.

Mark Lomax II 8:22I played piano in the, um, jazz ensemble.

Tim Fulton 8:25Okay.

Mark Lomax II 8:25And I played flute in the, uh, concert band.

Tim Fulton 8:28Okay. And so where did you seek out training in college?

Mark Lomax II 8:31Well, I, I got a full ride to Ohio State the first time I went there-

Tim Fulton 8:35Okay

Mark Lomax II 8:36... um, to play drums as a, a jazz studies major.

Tim Fulton 8:39Okay, cool. And so you've chosen to stay in Columbus and to be a professional musician. Talk about some of the projects that you've worked on or what you're working on now.

Mark Lomax II 8:47Yeah. So, uh, I did choose to stay in Columbus because when my wife was pregnant with our oldest daughter-

Tim Fulton 8:53Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 8:53... uh, we were on the road, and it just didn't work. She said, "Either you're gonna come back here-

Tim Fulton 8:57Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 8:57... and, and take care of your family or, you know, you can figure the rest out on your own."

Tim Fulton 9:02Right.

Mark Lomax II 9:02So, you know.

Tim Fulton 9:03I love you, babe, but.

Mark Lomax II 9:04Exactly. So being that I love her-

Tim Fulton 9:07And your family

Mark Lomax II 9:08... and my family, I, I did decide to come back, and that's when I-

Tim Fulton 9:11Full disclosure, your wife is sitting in the room.

Mark Lomax II 9:13She's in the room.

Tim Fulton 9:13Right, so.

Mark Lomax II 9:14So but that's, that's how the story goes.

Tim Fulton 9:16That would not change anything that you say.

Mark Lomax II 9:18No, no. But, uh, so int- my intention was actually to move to either New York or New Orleans.

Tim Fulton 9:24Okay.

Mark Lomax II 9:24Uh, but when we were on the road during that time in '01, uh, I got to see the business for what it really was.

Tim Fulton 9:31Mm-hmm. And so just timeline, y- you're fresh out of college at that point.

Mark Lomax II 9:35No.

Tim Fulton 9:36Okay.

Mark Lomax II 9:36I was still... I left college, actually.

Tim Fulton 9:38Okay.

Mark Lomax II 9:39I dropped out to go and, and just kinda be a musician for a little while.

Tim Fulton 9:42Okay.

Mark Lomax II 9:43'Cause I, I-

Tim Fulton 9:44But you are in your early 20s, and you're on the road.

Mark Lomax II 9:47Yes. Yes.

Tim Fulton 9:47Got it.

Mark Lomax II 9:47I like to learn. I like to read. I was reading Dostoevsky and James Cone, who's a theologian, when I was 14, 15 years old.

Tim Fulton 9:55Okay.

Mark Lomax II 9:55So that wasn't the issue.

Tim Fulton 9:56A little heavy stuff.

Mark Lomax II 9:57A little bit. But, you know, and I, I was trying to connect with my dad, who's a world-renowned theologian.

Tim Fulton 10:01Okay.

Mark Lomax II 10:01Um, but I felt like college was sterile. I felt as an artist who had been a professional for a while-

Tim Fulton 10:09Right

Mark Lomax II 10:09... by the time I got to college, that I re- wasn't really being fed-

Tim Fulton 10:13Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 10:13... the information that I thought was gonna lead me or help me get to what I was hearing in my head artistically.

Tim Fulton 10:21Well, and I think Ohio State's a little bit of a different experience for people who especially grew up in an urban school system, and especially-

Mark Lomax II 10:30Yeah

Tim Fulton 10:30... Fort Hayes, which is-

Mark Lomax II 10:31Yeah

Tim Fulton 10:32... the actual physical structure is a series of buildings that is not unlike a small college campus.

Mark Lomax II 10:36Exactly. Exactly.

Tim Fulton 10:37And so you go to Ohio State, and you are put in lines, and you have a number. And you, it's not prison, but you are certainly-

Mark Lomax II 10:44It feels like it.

Tim Fulton 10:45You are certainly told where to go.

Mark Lomax II 10:47Right.

Tim Fulton 10:47And there isn't a whole lot of interaction, at least when you first get there as a freshman or even a sophomore, a whole lot of interaction with the people that are teaching you. There's this level of separation with, like-

Mark Lomax II 10:58Well-

Tim Fulton 10:58... the TAs 'cause it's just so big.

Mark Lomax II 11:00Yeah, but that wasn't the case in the School of Music.

Tim Fulton 11:02Oh, okay.

Mark Lomax II 11:02The School of Music, that's absolutely the case in the general courses.

Tim Fulton 11:06Okay.

Mark Lomax II 11:06But the School of Music is still very small.

Tim Fulton 11:08Okay.

Mark Lomax II 11:08If you think about Indiana University, I just, as, I think it's another Big Ten school-

Tim Fulton 11:12Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 11:13... if I remember. Um, their school of music has 2,500 students.

Tim Fulton 11:17Okay.

Mark Lomax II 11:18Five orchestras. And OSU has one orchestra. Uh, the last time I, I knew this number, uh, because I saw it somewhere, it was, like, less than 300. It was, like, 220-

Tim Fulton 11:28Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 11:29... 225 students total.

Tim Fulton 11:30Well, I remember seeing the practice rooms at one point when I was working at the Wexner Center, and I was like, "This is-"

Mark Lomax II 11:35This is it?

Tim Fulton 11:35"... this is it? This is all they have."

Mark Lomax II 11:37Yeah.

Tim Fulton 11:38Wow.

Mark Lomax II 11:38And so you brought up Fort Hayes, which is very interesting in terms of that transition, uh, to being a full-scholarship student, merit, all that kind of stuff.

Tim Fulton 11:47Right.

Mark Lomax II 11:47And then not feeling fulfilled.

Tim Fulton 11:48Well, and so before you get into it, Fort Hayes, just for those that don't know who may be transplants to Columbus, Fort Hayes is the arts-focused high school.

Mark Lomax II 11:57Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 11:57It's a lottery school only within Columbus City Schools.

Mark Lomax II 12:01Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 12:01So.

Mark Lomax II 12:01Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 12:02And go on.

Mark Lomax II 12:02And so my home school was Brookhaven.

Tim Fulton 12:04Okay.

Mark Lomax II 12:04Which is now closed.

Tim Fulton 12:06Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 12:06So grew up in Linden Went to Linden Elementary-

Tim Fulton 12:09Okay

Mark Lomax II 12:09... on Westerville and then went to Crestview Middle School-

Tim Fulton 12:12Okay

Mark Lomax II 12:12... on Webber, which is also closed. Crestview is, I think now it's some kind of alternative school.

Tim Fulton 12:16I think it's a charter school now.

Mark Lomax II 12:17Charter school.

Tim Fulton 12:18Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 12:18And then I went to Brookhaven.

Tim Fulton 12:20Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 12:20And then Fort Hayes for those vocational years.

Tim Fulton 12:23Right.

Mark Lomax II 12:23The junior and senior years. And, you know, to his credit, Jim Maneri was our teacher.

Tim Fulton 12:27Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 12:27He's a, he's a local musician that travels a lot and, and runs bands.

Tim Fulton 12:30And you can see him at the Dude Opera every-

Mark Lomax II 12:31That's right. That's right

Tim Fulton 12:32... every July 4th.

Mark Lomax II 12:34Um, eh, you know, he gave us a lot by not telling us a lot.

Tim Fulton 12:40Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 12:41You know, he trusted us as musicians.

Tim Fulton 12:42By teaching you.

Mark Lomax II 12:43Right. Exactly.

Tim Fulton 12:43Exactly.

Mark Lomax II 12:44You know, I remember the first day at Fort Hayes. He comes in and he drops a stack of tunes on the piano, and this was like a Wednesday.

Tim Fulton 12:53Okay.

Mark Lomax II 12:53I think when sch- the day school started-

Tim Fulton 12:55Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 12:55... for that program, and he said, "You have a performance on Friday. I need you to arrange two sets worth of music." And he left us alone.

Tim Fulton 13:03And some of you had never even arranged things before.

Mark Lomax II 13:05E- exactly.

Tim Fulton 13:06Right.

Mark Lomax II 13:06Most of us hadn't.

Tim Fulton 13:07Okay.

Mark Lomax II 13:07Had no clue. So it forced us to research-

Tim Fulton 13:10Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 13:10... 'cause we had to get a sense of what the original work sounded like. It forced us in two days to become a band.

Tim Fulton 13:17Okay.

Mark Lomax II 13:17You know, because you had to hear everybody's ideas and then settle on the, the approach for all the arrangements that worked together, and then you had to manage your time.

Tim Fulton 13:26Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 13:27Because we were only there three and a half hours every day.

Tim Fulton 13:29Right.

Mark Lomax II 13:29So from the time he dropped the music to the time it was time to play, we literally had less than 10 hours to put two sets together, and we had just met each other.

Tim Fulton 13:37How much forethought there must have been in that process to s- 'cause the... what that truly teaches you is not necessarily to be mu- musician, but to be a good working musician.

Mark Lomax II 13:46Right. Right.

Tim Fulton 13:47To be able to go into a situation and say, "Okay, what has to get done here?"

Mark Lomax II 13:50Exactly.

Tim Fulton 13:51And your hand's not gonna get held, and you're not, you know... It's not about style at that point. It's actually about creating a product-

Mark Lomax II 13:57Exactly

Tim Fulton 13:57... that, that, that goes out into the world.

Mark Lomax II 13:59And so having been in a position as a working drummer in all styles, when I was a teenager, I was in a rock band, uh, I was in gospel groups, I was in a country folk band.

Tim Fulton 14:12Okay.

Mark Lomax II 14:12I, I mean, I played everything, reggae, uh, hip hop, whatever the case may be. Anything I could play, I played.

Tim Fulton 14:18Okay.

Mark Lomax II 14:18You know, and then getting in an environment at Fort Hayes where now it was beyond just the instrument. You had to think about putting together a performance.

Tim Fulton 14:28Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 14:28And what, how to present yourself as professional musicians, right? Because you're getting paid, but you have to present a product, to your point. And then you get to Ohio State, where it wasn't that.

Tim Fulton 14:39Okay.

Mark Lomax II 14:40It was, "Here's your syllabus. These are the, these are the tunes you're gonna play. You're gonna play them this way because we're looking to grade you in this way." And I-

Tim Fulton 14:48And so it w- for them, it was almost about, not to put words in your mouth, but about the repetition of this act so that you could become proficient in playing this one thing.

Mark Lomax II 14:58Yeah. A- and-

Tim Fulton 14:59And not necessarily-

Mark Lomax II 14:59... from a very narrow perspective

Tim Fulton 15:00... and not working with other people.

Mark Lomax II 15:02Exactly.

Tim Fulton 15:02And that's not what being a musician is about.

Mark Lomax II 15:04At all, which is why I take issue with the term jazz, because since jazz programs have kinda proliferated through the academic space, uh-

Tim Fulton 15:12Right

Mark Lomax II 15:12... from the mid-'70s-

Tim Fulton 15:14And the study of jazz

Mark Lomax II 15:15... and the study of jazz-

Tim Fulton 15:15Right

Mark Lomax II 15:15... in a codified way.

Tim Fulton 15:17Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 15:17Right?

Tim Fulton 15:17And to be clear on what you mean by codified, it is viewed-

Mark Lomax II 15:21It's in books.

Tim Fulton 15:21It is viewed one way.

Mark Lomax II 15:23Right.

Tim Fulton 15:23It is not-

Mark Lomax II 15:24Right.

Tim Fulton 15:25Yes, jazz is musical interpretation, but it is not interpreted anymore.

Mark Lomax II 15:29Exactly.

Tim Fulton 15:29It is presented as these are what scholars say about it.

Mark Lomax II 15:33Exactly.

Tim Fulton 15:33Much like modern art.

Mark Lomax II 15:35Even contemporary classical music.

Tim Fulton 15:36Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 15:37I mean, the reason why we don't have orchestras p- playing, you know, living composers as much as I think as a composer they should-

Tim Fulton 15:44Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 15:44... is because the rep you learn in school are all dead composers.

Tim Fulton 15:49Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 15:49It's very rare, and, and in fact, I would think it's a privilege to be in a program where you're playing as much contemporary music as you are music from the standard rep.

Tim Fulton 15:58Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 15:58Regardless of the art music genre, whether it's what we call jazz or classical, right? And so I make a distinction between jazz and art music, particularly in the African American tradition, because jazz now to me represents what you're learning out of a book in a classroom.

Tim Fulton 16:12Okay.

Mark Lomax II 16:13And it takes both the performative and the communal and communicative aspects-

Tim Fulton 16:17Right

Mark Lomax II 16:17... away from the music, which you really find in the blues. Uh, and that's not really taught or valued as much as, you know, complex scales, chord changes-

Tim Fulton 16:26Well, there was a movement-

Mark Lomax II 16:27... things like that

Tim Fulton 16:27... behind it, though. The jazz movement was seen very differently than the blues movement, right?

Mark Lomax II 16:32It depends on who was looking-

Tim Fulton 16:34As-

Mark Lomax II 16:34... and observing.

Tim Fulton 16:34Okay.

Mark Lomax II 16:34Right? So if, if you read most of the literature on Black music in America-

Tim Fulton 16:39Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 16:39... it's not written by Black people.

Tim Fulton 16:41Right.

Mark Lomax II 16:41Right? So you have a perception on the outside looking in, and then kinda these values, right or wrong, you know, being placed on the product.

Tim Fulton 16:50Okay.

Mark Lomax II 16:51You know, from Gunther Schuller to any- I mean, name any- anybody. Then you have scholars who are African American like, uh, Guthrie Ramsey-

Tim Fulton 16:58Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 16:58... at University of Pennsylvania, um, even Bill Banfield at, uh, Berkeley College of Music, you know, who are not only practitioners-

Tim Fulton 17:06Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 17:06... of the art form, but they were raised in the culture that created the art form.

Tim Fulton 17:10Okay.

Mark Lomax II 17:11Right? And so they are able to-

Tim Fulton 17:14Inherently, they have more authority-

Mark Lomax II 17:16Inher- right

Tim Fulton 17:16... to speak on it.

Mark Lomax II 17:17Well, not just the authority, but the experiential aspect-

Tim Fulton 17:20Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 17:21... that brings to life the three dimensions of the music itself. You, you gotta think, in African tradition, music was functional.

Tim Fulton 17:29Okay.

Mark Lomax II 17:30There was no art for art's sake that we hear, you know, composers like Mahler and Wagner and folks like that talking about.

Tim Fulton 17:37Okay.

Mark Lomax II 17:37You know, music in, in the African tradition across the continent, so we can't generalize-

Tim Fulton 17:41Right

Mark Lomax II 17:41... you know, was a function of the society. You know, if you're born, there's music. If you die, there's music. If you're sick, there's music. If you... Whatever the case may be, right? You get married, there's music.

Tim Fulton 17:53Right.

Mark Lomax II 17:53Uh, if you're going to war, there's music. If you're hunting, there's mu- I mean, it was a function. There was no separate Word even for music, dance, or even magic.

Tim Fulton 18:02Okay.

Mark Lomax II 18:03You know? But here in the Western world, you know, we have these distinct binaries.

Tim Fulton 18:08Okay.

Mark Lomax II 18:08You know? Like, uh, high art, low art.

Tim Fulton 18:11Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 18:11And that applies to music. Um, you can think about, you know, sacred and secular.

Tim Fulton 18:15Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 18:15You know, again, that didn't exist in Africa.

Tim Fulton 18:17Right.

Mark Lomax II 18:18You know, and so you, you, when you're looking into a culture, you know, even if you've been in the midst, it's still hard to really understand some of those things that aren't spoken. You know, gospel music-

Tim Fulton 18:30Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 18:30... as different from, uh, the traditional congregational approach to worship music where everybody in the church sang. You know, gospel music was a creation of a musician, uh, who was a blues musician.

Tim Fulton 18:45Okay.

Mark Lomax II 18:45And he brings the blues aesthetic, performance style, uh, everything into the church.

Tim Fulton 18:52Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 18:52Because he gets saved, then the whole thing changes. And there's an issue there because he's coming from, quote, unquote, "the world"-

Tim Fulton 19:00Right

Mark Lomax II 19:00... into a sacred space.

Tim Fulton 19:02Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 19:02But his thing was, Tommy Dorsey was his name, if he, if he got saved-

Tim Fulton 19:07Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 19:08... but he has this training, right?

Tim Fulton 19:10This background that he's bringing.

Mark Lomax II 19:11This background, but now the inspiration for that product, that artistic product, is divine.

Tim Fulton 19:18Right.

Mark Lomax II 19:19You know, does- doesn't that make the product sacred? You know.

Tim Fulton 19:22I- inherently-

Mark Lomax II 19:23Inherently

Tim Fulton 19:23... one would think.

Mark Lomax II 19:24Right. But we've now in the West had this tension-

Tim Fulton 19:28Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 19:28... between sacred, secular, high, low, all this other kind of stuff. And, and my point in all that is Black music in general does not have that if you're looking at it through the lens, uh, and lineage of African, particularly West African music.

Tim Fulton 19:43Okay.

Mark Lomax II 19:43It's only having been socialized with the European wor- or within the European construct that now this tension surfaces.

Tim Fulton 19:50I see.

Mark Lomax II 19:50'Cause if you think about the '50s, all of our pop singers, R&B singers were from the church.

Tim Fulton 19:54Right.

Mark Lomax II 19:55That, that sound defines-

Tim Fulton 19:56Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 19:57... the '50, '60s, and '70s, and even the '80s, you know, if you think about, uh, Luther Vandross and-

Tim Fulton 20:02Okay

Mark Lomax II 20:02... and folks like that.

Tim Fulton 20:03Yeah. I wanna take a quick break here and play a track from your recent project that just came out in June, Drumversations.

Mark Lomax II 20:10Yeah.

Tim Fulton 20:10What are we gonna listen to first here?

Mark Lomax II 20:12You mentioned that you had worked with, uh, Dionne.

Tim Fulton 20:14I did. Dionne Custer Edwards, she and I worked together at the Wexner Center. She's an educator there, also a spoken word artist as well.

Mark Lomax II 20:21Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 20:22And here's Verity Rhythm off of Drumversations.

Mark Lomax II 22:02Da, da, da. Da, da, da. Da, da, da. Da, da, da. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm, rhythm. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm. Sweet song of... Sweet song of discord. I enter this space, throat full of resistance. Some whisper thick wisdom, crowds around me. Protest chant channels bright and sour notes, a strand of golden beads. I trespass, stand in this space adjacent to story or struggle. Voice a weathered thread, small in the work of just, belly full of season and leaf fall. Song. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm, rhythm. Sweet song of, sweet song of rhythm, rhythm, rhythm. We all have heavy lifting inside these broken hearts. One day, sharp lines will lie in lightning, shutter sky, a gaping wound. I come with numb and swollen self. My dignity competes with bell and clutter. Slow rumble of fear and brave. Salt granules swallowed inside rain or rolling tide clog and disorder the tune of gray sky Ball and chain, black eye. With one pen, one life, full of gleam and tear, I seek some crooked letter trail to the truth. What must I do? What must I do? What must I do? What must I do? What must I do? What must I, what must I do? What must I, what must I do? What must I, what must I do? What must I do? What must I... Sweet what, sweet song of what must I, sweet song of what must I do? Sweet song of what must I do? Sweet song of rhythm, rh- what must I do? What must I do? What must I do? What must I do? What must I do to be human, human, human, human, human.

Tim Fulton 25:39That again was Verity Rhythm off of Drumversations by our guest here, Mark Lomax II. Talk about that project and what it is, what it means for you.

Mark Lomax II 25:49So we, we spoke earlier about the talking drum.

Tim Fulton 25:52Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 25:52And a few years ago, I started to shift again-

Tim Fulton 25:56Okay

Mark Lomax II 25:57... in terms of, uh, wanting to find m- a voice for my approach to the instrument, the drum set, that was unique-

Tim Fulton 26:05Okay

Mark Lomax II 26:05... to, to not just my worldview, but how I hear music. And again, looking to Africa as a source of inspiration, the talking drum just came back to me.

Tim Fulton 26:15Okay.

Mark Lomax II 26:15And the notion that, you know, after going through, um, the rite of passage, oftentimes initiates got drum names.

Tim Fulton 26:25Okay.

Mark Lomax II 26:25And so if there was a gathering or the elders wanted to summon someone, they would beat out their name on the drum.

Tim Fulton 26:31Right.

Mark Lomax II 26:32You know, and the fact that you could have actual, real, understandable dialogue with a drum-

Tim Fulton 26:40Right

Mark Lomax II 26:40... you know, that within the cosmology of the culture represents the first ancestor or the voice of God, was appealing to me. Because in the West, in America, in Black popular music, in American popular music generally, you know, the drum still has, uh, a background function, utilitarian function of keeping the beat so people can dance.

Tim Fulton 27:01Right.

Mark Lomax II 27:01Which is great. I don't, I don't have anything against that, and it's an art in and of itself.

Tim Fulton 27:04That's its job within this construct.

Mark Lomax II 27:05Right, within that scope, right?

Tim Fulton 27:07Right.

Mark Lomax II 27:07But then I started thinking about concepts like internalized oppression and surplus powerlessness.

Tim Fulton 27:12Okay.

Mark Lomax II 27:13You know, they are concepts within the realm of sociology and psychology that suggest that a people who have been under an oppressive regime for any amount of time will often become socialized to oppress themselves. So then their behaviors manifest the output that, uh, an oppressor would expect from people that they were oppressing, right? So you think about, I grew up in Linden, and you see a lot of people in neighborhoods like Linden, uh, who say, "Well, this is it."

Tim Fulton 27:43It becomes their expectation.

Mark Lomax II 27:44It becomes their expectation, right? I believe that music is not only the healing power of the universe or healing force of the universe, to quote Albert Ayler, I also think that music unlocks the key to consciousness.

Tim Fulton 27:58Okay.

Mark Lomax II 27:58Because it's vibration, it's energy.

Tim Fulton 28:00Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 28:00And so the intention of the artist, the composer, the performer, has a lot to do with how that music interacts with human physiology-

Tim Fulton 28:08Well, it's connection, right?

Mark Lomax II 28:08... in terms of the audience. It's connection.

Tim Fulton 28:10Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 28:10But it's at a higher level that we don't often understand it. Higher level in terms of vibration, lower level in terms of consciousness.

Tim Fulton 28:17Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:17Because a lot of the music, uh, interacts with people, the listener, at a subconscious level.

Tim Fulton 28:21Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:22You know, so if you think about, uh, contemporary hip hop, the beats that they're using in trap music are-

Tim Fulton 28:30Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 28:30... slowed down African rhythms.

Tim Fulton 28:32Yes.

Mark Lomax II 28:33It's the agogic timeline. It's, it's all of that. I mean, I could speed it up and it would sound like a West African drum choir. And so I think genetically, you know, African Americans particularly are predisposed to the conversation that that rhythm has with our bodies.

Tim Fulton 28:47Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:47And so it brings down certain filters.

Tim Fulton 28:49Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:50When those filters are down-

Tim Fulton 28:51And this is evolutionary, I assume, right?

Mark Lomax II 28:53I think so.

Tim Fulton 28:54Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:54I think so. That's what my research tells me.

Tim Fulton 28:56Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:56Um, but-

Tim Fulton 28:57Is this a popular theory?

Mark Lomax II 28:58No, it, it-

Tim Fulton 28:59Okay.

Mark Lomax II 28:59I, I have-

Tim Fulton 29:00This is, this is all-

Mark Lomax II 29:00I'm arguing with people all over the country

Tim Fulton 29:02... this is all Dr. Mark Lomax II.

Mark Lomax II 29:03Yeah, exactly.

Tim Fulton 29:04Okay, cool.

Mark Lomax II 29:04Um, based on cymatics. Cymatics is the study of how vibration affects human physiology.

Tim Fulton 29:09Okay.

Mark Lomax II 29:10Uh, so we're predisposed to rhythm. Human beings are, period.

Tim Fulton 29:13Right.

Mark Lomax II 29:14So when you get a rhythm that has historical significance, even spiritual significance, it brings down certain filters, and then you put content that's not necessarily healthy over top of that rhythm, then it creates-

Tim Fulton 29:25And then it automatically translates and becomes a part of-

Mark Lomax II 29:27There you go

Tim Fulton 29:28... subconsciously of, "This is what I identify with."

Mark Lomax II 29:31Exactly, and we, we have scientific proof of this-

Tim Fulton 29:34Okay

Mark Lomax II 29:34... in the work of, uh, Dr. Masaru Emoto. Uh, there's a great documentary on, uh, YouTube called Messages from Water, and he actually wrote a book of the same title.

Tim Fulton 29:43Okay.

Mark Lomax II 29:43Where he gets, uh, people in Japan together to bless water. And when they bless the water, first of all, it's regular tap water.

Tim Fulton 29:50Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 29:51And he puts it under a microscope, you can't see anything. It's just kinda water, clear. People bless it, he freezes it, put it under the microscope again, it has these beautiful geometric shapes.

Tim Fulton 30:00Okay.

Mark Lomax II 30:00Right, where first it had nothing, it was clear. After it was blessed, it has these beautiful shapes, right? Um, then they take the same tap water and they curse it, and when he looks at it again under the microscope, it has these disfigured shapes.

Tim Fulton 30:14Okay.

Mark Lomax II 30:14So what does that tell us? It tells us that not only do our words have meaning, but the intention behind the word-

Tim Fulton 30:19Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 30:19... has meaning. Therefore, the extension of that idea to music makes sense based on that kind of art- uh, scientific work.

Tim Fulton 30:27And so talk about then Drumversations-

Mark Lomax II 30:29So the Drumversations-

Tim Fulton 30:29And how does that translate?

Mark Lomax II 30:30Yep. So the idea of the drums and their function I'm thinking, well, if these rhythms have some kind of intuitive or subconscious, uh, meaning for us, you know, but we're not intending or using an intention that's healthy-

Tim Fulton 30:47Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 30:47... how do we then understand the language that's bad for us versus the language that's good for us?

Tim Fulton 30:53Okay.

Mark Lomax II 30:53And going back to the talking drums, the talking dr- we had active conversations with the instrument-

Tim Fulton 30:58Right

Mark Lomax II 30:58... where now we don't.

Tim Fulton 30:59Okay.

Mark Lomax II 31:00So we've forgotten the language of the instrument, and as a result, I think our collective conscious and health is at risk.

Tim Fulton 31:07Okay.

Mark Lomax II 31:07And so if you think about the difference in rhythms between African and European, you know, it's stark. You know, European is fairly linear, a two-beat system, one, two-

Tim Fulton 31:17Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 31:17... military march. It's-

Tim Fulton 31:19Right

Mark Lomax II 31:19... boom, it's very static. Whereas African is 12, six threes.

Tim Fulton 31:23Okay.

Mark Lomax II 31:23So where the, uh, European is going in the strict one, two, one, two, the African is going one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two.

Tim Fulton 31:33Okay.

Mark Lomax II 31:33Right? And why that's important is because that six or that 12 is in vibration or rhythm with the Earth-

Tim Fulton 31:41Okay

Mark Lomax II 31:42... the way the Earth spins, and if you think about that linear European rhythm, the African rhythm runs a circle around it. And so it connects every so often, but there's so much room and things to do, and it's the circle, the circle of life. There's all of this stuff that you can connect-

Tim Fulton 31:57Right

Mark Lomax II 31:57... to that form of rhythm. The four or the two that's in European music is there, too.

Tim Fulton 32:02Right.

Mark Lomax II 32:02It's all-encompassing, whereas the linear rhythm leaves something out, the African rhythm is all-inclusive, right? So it has a lot to do-

Tim Fulton 32:09But it is all connected.

Mark Lomax II 32:10It, I, th- that's my point.

Tim Fulton 32:11Right.

Mark Lomax II 32:12So whereas I think therefore I am is a European construct, I am because you are is an African construct. So again, that all-encompassing, all-inclusive, we are here because we are here.

Tim Fulton 32:24Right.

Mark Lomax II 32:24Not I, me, right?

Tim Fulton 32:26And this is a lot of your spirituality, too, though, right?

Mark Lomax II 32:30Yeah, it does.

Tim Fulton 32:30I mean-

Mark Lomax II 32:30And, and, and it's not Christianity necessarily. I mean-

Tim Fulton 32:32Okay

Mark Lomax II 32:32... I grew up in that space. But the drums-

Tim Fulton 32:33Do you go to church now?

Mark Lomax II 32:34No.

Tim Fulton 32:35Okay. I'm just curious.

Mark Lomax II 32:35I'm a, I'm a preacher's kid, and I, I'm, I'm probably-

Tim Fulton 32:38No fe-

Mark Lomax II 32:38... my feet would burn up if I

Tim Fulton 32:39Heard, heard too many times.

Mark Lomax II 32:41But, you know, the idea is if the, if the role of the drum was not only to communicate between people and the universe or God or however you wanna describe that-

Tim Fulton 32:50Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 32:51... energy, but to heal-

Tim Fulton 32:53Okay

Mark Lomax II 32:53... then you have to get people to a point where they understand the language of the instrument so they can be open to that healing, right? So I wanted to do something completely different from the functional aspect of the instrument. The Drumversations, what led up to that, three albums of solo drum set music-

Tim Fulton 33:10Okay

Mark Lomax II 33:10... where I was really exploring the, a new, for me, language of the instrument, and then I wanted to apply that to voice, the nomo, the sound, the intention, uh, that comes from artists who I know are writing from a particular perspective. And so that's what Drumversations is. It's a conversation between the poet-

Tim Fulton 33:29Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 33:29... and the human voice and the drum, and the voice therefore, uh, you know, by extension of the universe. And so the next iteration of Drumversations will be me playing the poems without the voices.

Tim Fulton 33:41Okay.

Mark Lomax II 33:42Developing a language on the instrument that can be hopefully understood by people who wanna put the time in-

Tim Fulton 33:47Right

Mark Lomax II 33:47... to learn that new language.

Tim Fulton 33:48Okay.

Mark Lomax II 33:49You know.

Tim Fulton 33:49I wanna put a pin on this and just play one more piece from Drumversations, the Scott Woods piece. Scott was on the Confluence cast a couple of months ago, uh, at the time for Holler 30. So let's listen to Scott Woods' piece.

Mark Lomax II 35:06Boy, what you smiling for? They love it when we smile. Love it. Boy, oh, what you smiling for? You love it when we smile. You know you love it. This your house? This your club? You should see my place. It's a hovel. It's a shack. You like this suit? Cost me six months rent. My lady ain't seen me one night this week out here smiling, 'cause you love it when we smile. Can't get the gig without the smile. How you play the blues smiling? How you play that? Got our swing from poplar trees. Put it in them drums, the sticks and the shells. Bet you can't hear the wind in them side sticks from all this smiling we do. Lips cracking across dry teeth. A march of tombstones bleached in the sun. Breathe through your nose all night 'cause your mouth a gate. Boy

Mark Lomax II 36:39Smilin' for? Don't you know where you are? It ain't called the Cotton Club for nothin'. Pick them sticks. Pick them taps. Pick them lights. Burn that cork till it make your teeth white when you smile in all that darkness. Ain't seen a dentist in years. Teeth so white, he can order drinks at the bar. How you do that, boy? Make your teeth white out of thin air. Must be all that practice you do, all that smilin' you have to muster before you plow, before you strike, before you strum, before you pick. Boy, what you smilin' for? Don't you know when you are? Oh, oh, I get it. That's what it's about. Could always be worse. You could have to work for a non-livin'. How much air you suck through them teeth when they call you out your name? All of it, I bet. Can't see how anybody can breathe in here. All that disdain sopped up in your mouth like Mississippi gravy in a biscuit. Don't you know who you are? No. Don't you know what you are? No. There's policy and procedures, then there's rules. Number two, you ain't never supposed to talk back, not to the dishwasher, to the valet, to the bouncer. They step on your shoes, and that's just another tooth to fit into your face. Guess what number one is. Boy, what you smilin' for? 'Cause you know what this is? This an opportunity. You get to dance all night. You was gonna do that anyway, wasn't you, boy? Dancin'. Wish you could dance in here. Best be on that stage, smilin'. You wanna tap on that sand in here, make sure you got a broom. Initiative cost, and you don't make but so much an hour. Did I say hour, like you had a choice to leave early? That one's on me. Stay right there. Boy, you know the words, right? Let me hear you say them. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. What you smilin' for? Spare change? Tips? An offering? Here's a tip. Smile for your life, boy. You got it now. Got that smile burnin'. Share that smile. They know the words. Watch. After me. Is you is. Is you ain't. Is you is. Is you ain't. Is you is or is you ain't my master. My master. See how we do? Sneak it on in. Slide on your belly under the brush. Wait for the moonlight to get just right, then you break for it, faster than a dog, faster than a horse, faster than a bullet, faster than a river going the other way, faster than a moonbeam wants to pick you up, take you over there. Where? Over there. Where? Over there. Look. There's a fire over there. They dancin' over there. Babies, lovers, the blackest sculptures you've ever seen, onyx in motion, fine art. Won't see its kind for another 400 years, all beautiful and ablaze like that. You gonna be able to buy it off the street one day, right at a flea market. It's gonna speak to you, and you ain't gonna know what it's sayin', but you know it's sayin' somethin' slick, somethin' under brush, bush tongue, drum tongue, runnin' away tongue, a tongue fallin' out its mouth, out of breath as it runs, every step a new land, another place you are not sure you should be. Mousetrap in a bear trap. Once you see it, you reach down, pick your tongue up off the soil and silk dust it off before you roll it up, set it gently back into the cage of your demeanor and need, and you smile. Boy, what you cryin' for? This a good job. This a good gig. Boy, what you dyin' for? Ain't we been good to you? Ain't we been just? Don't you matter? Boy, what you fryin' for? All crime is equal under the eyes of the Lord. Got a pillow on his chair just for you. Boy, what you lyin' for? Keep your back straight before that flag. Put your hand over your heart you lucky to have. Lock your knees together under them pants. Look at everything you got and be glad. Boy, what you smilin' for? Why you smilin'? How you play them songs and keep that smile goin' like that? How you trap them blues and keep that grin in place? How you pray with your teeth so tight? What you smilin' for?

Mark Lomax II 42:46What you smiling for? What you smiling for?

Tim Fulton 43:00Again, that was Scott Woods performing on Drumversations, Mark Lomax, the second album. We sort of jokingly stated, and while it may be the most extreme truth with a capital T, uh, that you stay in Columbus because of your family and because of your lovely wife.

Mark Lomax II 43:15Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 43:15Again, she's still in the room. Um, talk about what you see in the Columbus music scene. You know, you're coming here, you just performed at a very wet Jazz and Rib Fest.

Mark Lomax II 43:24Yeah.

Tim Fulton 43:25What is good about the Columbus music scene? Where can it improve? How do you see the landscape?

Mark Lomax II 43:30So what's good about the Columbus music scene is that as it relates to popular music, it's everywhere.

Tim Fulton 43:35Okay.

Mark Lomax II 43:35I mean, if you're playing in a cover band that's doing popular music no matter what the genre is-

Tim Fulton 43:40I think that's true in any predominantly middle class- ... affluent, white-controlled-

Mark Lomax II 43:46Yeah

Tim Fulton 43:46... music performance who can cover hits from the mid 2000s.

Mark Lomax II 43:50Right.

Tim Fulton 43:50They're gonna be fine.

Mark Lomax II 43:51Yeah, and they work, and they, they make a lot of money, and people are happy to dance and, and-

Tim Fulton 43:55Right

Mark Lomax II 43:55... all that kind of stuff. I agree with that premise that that's probably the case anywhere.

Tim Fulton 43:58Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 43:58What I don't see, though, is a large market, even half the size of that, supporting art music.

Tim Fulton 44:06Okay.

Mark Lomax II 44:06You know, we've had-

Tim Fulton 44:07Define art music.

Mark Lomax II 44:08To me, art music is not popular.

Tim Fulton 44:10Okay.

Mark Lomax II 44:10I mean, by, by, by definition. And, and what I mean by that, it's not in the mainstream. So where popular music might be an artist everybody knows, Beyonce-

Tim Fulton 44:19Okay

Mark Lomax II 44:19... Jay-Z, you know, whatever the case may be. You know, be- and, and the difference is the level of... And this is subjective, so-

Tim Fulton 44:26Okay

Mark Lomax II 44:27... I, I'll, I'll, I'll go there with it. But the level of craft that goes into it.

Tim Fulton 44:31Okay.

Mark Lomax II 44:32Right? As great as Beyonce is, there's a formula there.

Tim Fulton 44:35Right.

Mark Lomax II 44:36And there's a formula that works, and if they leave that formula, it doesn't sell.

Tim Fulton 44:40Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 44:40That's why if you look at the sum total of her body of work, I mean, there are kind of similarities there that, you know, you don't see any real risk-

Tim Fulton 44:51Right

Mark Lomax II 44:51... artistically, right? Um, but then, you know, a bright spot in that locally is the Johnstone Fund for New Music.

Tim Fulton 44:58Okay.

Mark Lomax II 44:59You know, the, Jack and Zoe Johnstone are a couple of music lovers, appreciators. Jack, uh, I think has a doctorate in ethnomusicology.

Tim Fulton 45:08Okay.

Mark Lomax II 45:09Uh, he plays an instrument. He understands music. Zoe's a pianist, and they single-handedly literally fund, you know, new music concerts in our city on Wednesdays.

Tim Fulton 45:19Okay.

Mark Lomax II 45:20You know, and they're typically held at the Short North Stage-

Tim Fulton 45:23Okay

Mark Lomax II 45:23... the Garden Theatre. And, you know, they commission work, and it's not all the same. I mean, it's different. It might be completely atonal, avant-garde, contemporary classical music.

Tim Fulton 45:33Okay.

Mark Lomax II 45:33It might be me with a string quartet and a jazz group trying to find an organic hybrid between the two artistic languages.

Tim Fulton 45:41Okay.

Mark Lomax II 45:42You know, uh, so, I mean, there's a wide gamut, and we have a, a solid following for that series.

Tim Fulton 45:48Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 45:48But it's the only series of its type in the city.

Tim Fulton 45:51Right.

Mark Lomax II 45:51You know, and in a, a, a metro area of over a million people, you would think that we would be able to support, you know, art music i- in, in, uh, a better way, a more substantive way.

Tim Fulton 46:02Well, there are certainly some underground venues that are trying to do some interesting things. Let's talk about that scene nationally, then.

Mark Lomax II 46:09Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 46:09Are there... What could solve that? Could more organizations like the Wexner Center bringing in more work like that?

Mark Lomax II 46:15But why would they have to bring it in? I mean, we have people here that do it.

Tim Fulton 46:17Are there people that... I'm sorry. There is a big scene, it's just there-

Mark Lomax II 46:21There, there's no-

Tim Fulton 46:21... isn't an audience for it?

Mark Lomax II 46:22So we, we do a great job in Columbus of exporting talent.

Tim Fulton 46:26Okay.

Mark Lomax II 46:27Because there's really no place for the talent to have a home here. In Chicago, that's not the case.

Tim Fulton 46:31Right.

Mark Lomax II 46:31You know, Chicago even more than New York, Nicole Mitchell, Nikki Mitchell.

Tim Fulton 46:35Okay.

Mark Lomax II 46:35She's a flautist, and she has this wonderful ensemble that's an experimental group. They, they blend everything.

Tim Fulton 46:44Okay.

Mark Lomax II 46:44You know, uh, she has strings, she has some woodwinds, there's some percussionists, and they all improvise, but they all are classically trained. And so their product, their, their musical adventure-

Tim Fulton 46:55Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 46:55... you know, is the sum total of the American experience.

Tim Fulton 46:58Okay.

Mark Lomax II 46:59You know, in America where we still are trying to figure out what American music is as it relates to the art music.

Tim Fulton 47:04Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 47:05You know, I think the blending of the African American and the European American and everything in between in the work that she does is a prime example of that. Renee Baker, also in Chicago, has the Chicago Modern Orchestra Project, Project.

Tim Fulton 47:18Are these people that Columbus has lost?

Mark Lomax II 47:20No.

Tim Fulton 47:20Okay.

Mark Lomax II 47:20I'm just saying, Chicago is a place where you can cultivate that talent-

Tim Fulton 47:24Right

Mark Lomax II 47:24... and they have a home there in the city. You know, those are two ladies in particular that I know of their work, and they're doing great, and they're getting commissions, and they're having performances. And I mean, the Chicago Modern Orchestra Project has 30 members that she can pay-

Tim Fulton 47:37Okay

Mark Lomax II 47:37... for performances.

Tim Fulton 47:38And so what you're saying is we simply need-

Mark Lomax II 47:39You know, we don't have that here in Columbus

Tim Fulton 47:40... a, an existing funding model to provide for this work to be created.

Mark Lomax II 47:45Yeah, it's created and sustained.

Tim Fulton 47:46Okay.

Mark Lomax II 47:46You know, and I think we do have it, we just don't apply it in the way that makes the most sense for that particular space. Because a great example of where Columbus does well in the arts-

Tim Fulton 47:56Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 47:56... is the visual arts world.

Tim Fulton 47:57Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 47:58You know, and I know some people will, you know, challenge that, but you can walk anywhere in the central city, you know, a certain area like the Short North-

Tim Fulton 48:07We need more public art, though. You wouldn't argue with that.

Mark Lomax II 48:08But we do need... I'm not, I'm not saying that it's perfect.

Tim Fulton 48:11Right.

Mark Lomax II 48:11But I'm saying compared to the music scene-

Tim Fulton 48:13We do a good job of supporting it.

Mark Lomax II 48:14Right.

Tim Fulton 48:15I try... I think we are still so young in that space-

Mark Lomax II 48:19Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 48:19... that we're trying to find quick solutions, like-

Mark Lomax II 48:23Instead of substantive solutions.

Tim Fulton 48:24Like the... Not that they're not great.

Mark Lomax II 48:26Yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:27The Short North Mural Project is fine.

Mark Lomax II 48:29Yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:29But it's a recreation of art in a different space that is simply a visual representation of art that frankly you're looking at a billboard.

Mark Lomax II 48:39Right.

Tim Fulton 48:39And there are a lot of opportunities, and I think you'll see as construction sort of builds up in whatever the Short North has sort of become at this point, you're going to see a whole lot more actual art.

Mark Lomax II 48:52I would hope so.

Tim Fulton 48:53Which is fantastic.

Mark Lomax II 48:54I would hope so.

Tim Fulton 48:54I, I would, I, I-

Mark Lomax II 48:55But what I don't see in those plans-

Tim Fulton 48:57Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 48:58... are venues to present music that pushes the audience to be-

Tim Fulton 49:01Man, real estate's expensive. Like

Mark Lomax II 49:04But you know, here's the, here's the interesting thing, though. We, we have the King Arts Complex.

Tim Fulton 49:08Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 49:09Not there. We have the Lincoln Theatre, and it's debatable depending on how you... I mean-

Tim Fulton 49:13Well, and so then you're starting-

Mark Lomax II 49:14You know

Tim Fulton 49:15... to make an argument, and I don't, I am not gonna make any statements about how those venues are controlled.

Mark Lomax II 49:20Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 49:21Excuse me. Yeah, I am.

Mark Lomax II 49:22Yeah.

Tim Fulton 49:23But you know, those venues are controlled by, King Arts Complex is independent and has its own-

Mark Lomax II 49:28The CAPA.

Tim Fulton 49:29Right. But, but then CAPA-

Mark Lomax II 49:30Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 49:30... controls every venue that is meant for performing arts. It's not like Nationwide Arena or anything.

Mark Lomax II 49:35Right. But that's why I brought up the fact that i- in, in a metro area of a million plus-

Tim Fulton 49:40Right

Mark Lomax II 49:40... we should not have a-

Tim Fulton 49:42One game in town

Mark Lomax II 49:42... Buckeye-oriented mindset when it comes to our cultural product.

Tim Fulton 49:45Okay.

Mark Lomax II 49:46You know, and what I mean by that, because Ohio State is Ohio State, and I'm a three-times Buckeye, so-

Tim Fulton 49:50Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 49:51... there you go. Um, you know, we can't have a professional team.

Tim Fulton 49:54Right, 'cause the city can't support it.

Mark Lomax II 49:56'Cause the city can't support it.

Tim Fulton 49:57Right.

Mark Lomax II 49:58So how is it that with all the great stuff that CAPA brings to our city, we still don't have the bandwidth to cultivate the artists here-

Tim Fulton 50:05Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 50:06... in that, in a similar space, and none of us are competing with these national folks.

Tim Fulton 50:09Right.

Mark Lomax II 50:10And I think one of the benefits of having stayed in Columbus is that I've not gotten caught up in that New York thing or in that West Coast thing where-

Tim Fulton 50:18Okay

Mark Lomax II 50:18... everybody really kinda sounds the same.

Tim Fulton 50:21Okay.

Mark Lomax II 50:21You know, in, in trying to create a niche for myself here.

Tim Fulton 50:25Do you feel like you're creating in a bubble, though? I mean, if there's not as many working artists-

Mark Lomax II 50:30Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 50:31... and, and while you are a working artist, you also have a day job-

Mark Lomax II 50:33I do

Tim Fulton 50:34... that, that you're passionate about, and that's great.

Mark Lomax II 50:36Right.

Tim Fulton 50:36But-

Mark Lomax II 50:37But I'm also engaged with artists nationally, internationally.

Tim Fulton 50:40Okay.

Mark Lomax II 50:40You know, I'm a member of, a charter member-

Tim Fulton 50:42So you are getting those, that influence.

Mark Lomax II 50:43Right. I'm a charter member of the Composers of Color Collective, which, um, represents the less than 30 African American composers with terminal degrees in classical composition.

Tim Fulton 50:52Okay.

Mark Lomax II 50:53You know, so I have the benefit of those conversations, where I'm hearing people creating in Boston, in New York, in LA, in the South. Um, you know, I, even in Seattle.

Tim Fulton 51:01How are those conversations happening? I'm just curious.

Mark Lomax II 51:03Oh.

Tim Fulton 51:04Like, do you guys have an annual meeting?

Mark Lomax II 51:04Internet threads.

Tim Fulton 51:05Okay.

Mark Lomax II 51:05We have a biannual conference-

Tim Fulton 51:07Okay

Mark Lomax II 51:07... uh, that I hope to host here in 2020.

Tim Fulton 51:09That would be fantastic.

Mark Lomax II 51:10Uh, our next one in '18 is gonna be in Atlanta.

Tim Fulton 51:12Okay.

Mark Lomax II 51:12A- and, uh, you know, these are people who were trained at Yale, at Harvard, at Berkeley College of Music, at Stanford, I mean, from real schools, real training, you know, that are thinking, you know... And, and you can argue that art music, particularly African Americans in that classical space, are in their own bubble-

Tim Fulton 51:29Okay

Mark Lomax II 51:29... because the relevance of our work is questionable.

Tim Fulton 51:31Well, you don't believe that.

Mark Lomax II 51:33I do believe that.

Tim Fulton 51:34Okay.

Mark Lomax II 51:34In fact, I argue that in, in my dissertation, that if, you know, Black artistic products are invisible because we don't have the same level of access-

Tim Fulton 51:42Then they're inherently not viable, or-

Mark Lomax II 51:44Unless... Right. No, exactly, unless we change that.

Tim Fulton 51:48Okay.

Mark Lomax II 51:49You know, there's a gap in the market. We need to think like entrepreneurs and create that.

Tim Fulton 51:53Okay.

Mark Lomax II 51:54You know? And the reason why that applies to this group of people maybe more than some other folks here locally is because they have resources. They have access to resources. You know, when you're a college professor at the level that-

Tim Fulton 52:06That these people are

Mark Lomax II 52:06... some of my colleagues are-

Tim Fulton 52:07Right

Mark Lomax II 52:07... you know, they can do some things if they just put their minds to it.

Tim Fulton 52:10Okay.

Mark Lomax II 52:11In Columbus, we don't yet have the infrastructure to have that same impact. We can build it, I think.

Tim Fulton 52:17Okay.

Mark Lomax II 52:17You know, I think there is support.

Tim Fulton 52:19So is, who is the onus on, then, to help generate the support, generate this audience, generate those venues? Is it the community as a whole? Is it the artists asking for it more? What is the first step in solving this problem?

Mark Lomax II 52:31I think it's a both/and.

Tim Fulton 52:32Okay.

Mark Lomax II 52:32I think arts in general in American culture suffers from the fact that we don't have a foundational understanding of the importance of artistic thinking, of creativity, that it keeps folks out of the box and thinking forward.

Tim Fulton 52:48Right.

Mark Lomax II 52:48Right.

Tim Fulton 52:48Well, and it's, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, we have music and then we have life.

Mark Lomax II 52:54Right.

Tim Fulton 52:54And they are not, and they are separate.

Mark Lomax II 52:56Exactly.

Tim Fulton 52:56Right.

Mark Lomax II 52:56Exactly, right? So we push for STEM and not STEAM. So if you want innovation, how do you do that without some kind of creative process?

Tim Fulton 53:04Right.

Mark Lomax II 53:05It doesn't happen.

Tim Fulton 53:06Well, and I just wanna point out to sort of bring things full circle that not only were you the kid at 12 who in church was, you know, experimenting with the drums, and people didn't necessarily wanna hear it, you're the charter member of a national organization that's sort of saying, "Guys, you need to get off your asses and do it yourselves."

Mark Lomax II 53:23Right. Right.

Tim Fulton 53:23Right.

Mark Lomax II 53:23And, and, and that really is my message here locally. For instance, Holler is a great example of that.

Tim Fulton 53:28Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 53:28And that was Scott's baby, his brainchild. Um, but-

Tim Fulton 53:32And he did good, but I, I would argue that there was not enough community support behind it.

Mark Lomax II 53:37Oh, definitely.

Tim Fulton 53:38Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 53:38But that's my point, right? And, and the idea is that I think the onus is on the artist to prove-

Tim Fulton 53:45Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 53:45... that, one, it can work.

Tim Fulton 53:47Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 53:47Particularly in our community, 'cause as-

Tim Fulton 53:49So you're saying the onus was on Scott.

Mark Lomax II 53:50Well, he... And he did it.

Tim Fulton 53:52Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 53:52He proved that it's viable. It made money. It did well. People supported it.

Tim Fulton 53:56Right.

Mark Lomax II 53:57But on the front end, he didn't have the same level of support-

Tim Fulton 54:01Right

Mark Lomax II 54:01... that he would have had he said at the end, and everybody saw it was successful, said, "I'm gonna do it again next year."

Tim Fulton 54:07Right.

Mark Lomax II 54:08And I think people would've written checks.

Tim Fulton 54:09Absolutely.

Mark Lomax II 54:10But the fact that he's not gonna do it, now what is the role of the community to say, "You know what? We had this. It was beautiful. It changed something."

Tim Fulton 54:18He has said he's not doing it again?

Mark Lomax II 54:20Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 54:20I didn't know that.

Mark Lomax II 54:21I've, I've been pushing him. Everybody's been pushing him, but he's not gonna do it. You know, and so now that we see that it works-

Tim Fulton 54:26Right

Mark Lomax II 54:26... I think it's the community's role, community's job, really, to ensure that we have something like that that happens regularly.

Tim Fulton 54:33Mm-hmm.

Mark Lomax II 54:34You know, because there are a lot of great artists here, artists of note.

Tim Fulton 54:37Right.

Mark Lomax II 54:38And there's no home for us here.

Tim Fulton 54:40Okay.

Mark Lomax II 54:40But that presents an opportunity.

Tim Fulton 54:41It's time to build a house.

Mark Lomax II 54:43It's time to build a house.

Tim Fulton 54:44Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 54:44You know? The last thing I would share, uh, kind of along those same lines-

Tim Fulton 54:48Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 54:48... is, you know, I think as Columbus grows, uh, I think I heard recently we're now the 14th largest city.

Tim Fulton 54:55Yes.

Mark Lomax II 54:55Uh.

Tim Fulton 54:55Metropolitan area.

Mark Lomax II 54:56Woo-hoo.

Tim Fulton 54:57Yep. That's us.

Mark Lomax II 54:57It's our artists who are gonna help us define who we are-

Tim Fulton 55:01Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 55:01... to the world, and I think it's time we started thinking about that. The first thing we have to do is be open to that conversation, number one, and, and, two, be serious about making financial commitments-

Tim Fulton 55:11Yeah

Mark Lomax II 55:11... to bolster our artistic community. We do well with bringing things into our community-

Tim Fulton 55:16Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 55:17... at the expense of what's already here, in many cases. So I think we have the artists, we have the talent, we have the vision within the artistic community that if we could just have a conversation with, you know, the powers that be and say, "This is how we can make Columbus a destination city"-

Tim Fulton 55:32Right

Mark Lomax II 55:33... and not just a flyover.

Tim Fulton 55:35Do you think it's a conversation that needs to happen, or do you think it's more people stepping up and just doing it?

Mark Lomax II 55:41I think it's a both and.

Tim Fulton 55:42Okay.

Mark Lomax II 55:42I, I'm, I, I don't really like binaries.

Tim Fulton 55:44Okay.

Mark Lomax II 55:44But in

Tim Fulton 55:45Okay, fair

Mark Lomax II 55:45... in, in, in the, uh, example of Holler though, Scott did it.

Tim Fulton 55:48Right.

Mark Lomax II 55:49And the arts community supported him, and we accomplished something, you know? And now-

Tim Fulton 55:54But he had to prove a lot. Like, let's-

Mark Lomax II 55:56But, and I think we're still in that place.

Tim Fulton 55:57And-

Mark Lomax II 55:58Unfortunately

Tim Fulton 55:58... I don't know how this is coming off in terms of how we're talking about Scott.

Mark Lomax II 56:02Yeah.

Tim Fulton 56:02He did a-

Mark Lomax II 56:02Scott's brilliant.

Tim Fulton 56:03He's, he did a fantastic and amazing job, and had to work against...

Mark Lomax II 56:07Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 56:08You can listen to the interview that we did that when we were still talking probably a month and a half or two months out, he knew it was gonna happen.

Mark Lomax II 56:15Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 56:15But he didn't know it was gonna happen.

Mark Lomax II 56:17Right.

Tim Fulton 56:17Like, he, he didn't know if he was going to accomplish his vision, and he did that and more.

Mark Lomax II 56:22Right. And see, the thing is, had we been in a more forward-thinking space in terms of the city itself-

Tim Fulton 56:27Never would've had a doubt

Mark Lomax II 56:27... never would've had a doubt.

Tim Fulton 56:28Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 56:29And if Columbus is gonna continue to grow and mature into a major city-

Tim Fulton 56:33Mm-hmm

Mark Lomax II 56:34... then we have to not just be forward-thinking, but be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Tim Fulton 56:39Yeah.

Mark Lomax II 56:39We have to take those kind of risks.

Tim Fulton 56:41Great. Mark, thank you so much for your time.

Mark Lomax II 56:43Thank you, Tim.

Tim Fulton 56:53Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite drummer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.