Columbus City Charter

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are getting back to basics. We're doing a survey of the foundation of our city's government. The Columbus City Charter is essentially the Columbus Constitution. I sat down with the chair of the last Comprehensive Charter Review Commission, Mr. Mike Curtin, to talk about why we have the structure that we do in Columbus, what makes Columbus different, why the recent charter amendment proposal floundered. We get Mike Curtin's thoughts on our current system and his predictions for the future of council. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by Little Rock Bar. Little Rock Bar is located at 944 North Fourth Street in Italian Village. With 30 beers on tap, Little Rock Bar has happy hour from 4:00 to 8:00 every day. Every Tuesday is $3 draft beers all night while you enjoy Rock Your Cock Off karaoke. Wednesdays is Everybody's a Comedian hosted by Travis Haywicher. It's like trivia, but you prove your snark instead of smarts. Info, hours, and upcoming events at littlerockbar.net. Everyone's night should have a little rock. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Mike Curtin, the former associate publisher for The Columbus Dispatch, former state representative for the 17th District on the occasion of his co-chairing of the Comprehensive Charter Review Commission in 2014. Today we're gonna talk about the Columbus City Charter. Mike, how are you, sir?

Mike Curtin 2:16I'm doing good, Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Fulton 2:18No, thank you so much for making the time. First of all, the Columbus City Charter is essentially the city's constitution. It defines the legal entities under which we're governed and the processes with which those entities use to govern us, correct?

Mike Curtin 2:33That is correct.

Tim Fulton 2:35Talk about, first of all, some of the things that it defines. It says we have a mayor. It says we have a city council. What's the basic lay of the land there?

Mike Curtin 2:44Well, you're correct. The, the charter is analogous to the U.S. Constitution or the Ohio Constitution. It is essentially the constitution for the city. It lays out, uh, who will be elected: a mayor, a seven-member council, a city attorney, and a city auditor. It specifies the powers and duties of each office. It specifies the qualifications that one must have to run for each of those offices.

Tim Fulton 3:07What are the qualifications needed? I assume that the city attorney has to be an attorney.

Mike Curtin 3:12Yes.

Tim Fulton 3:13Okay.

Mike Curtin 3:14Uh, other than that, it basically asserts that one must be an elector of the city.

Tim Fulton 3:19Okay.

Mike Curtin 3:19Must reside, uh, within the city, um, which means you have to be 18 years old and, and an elector. The charter also stipulates how these officers can be removed. If we want to remove them, um, by the recall process, we can do that. It specifies how the citizens can take government into their own hands through the initiative process.

Tim Fulton 3:40Okay.

Mike Curtin 3:41Um-

Tim Fulton 3:41And that's what we think of as a ballot issue?

Mike Curtin 3:43Correct.

Tim Fulton 3:44Okay.

Mike Curtin 3:44A citizen-initiated ballot issue. The, the charter gives the people the power of the initiative, which is to initiate legislation, the referendum, which is to have an up or down vote on legislation passed by the council, and the recall, which is essentially to impeach one of those elective officers. It stipulates, uh, how legislation is to, is to be considered, that it must be considered on three separate days or three separate readings.

Tim Fulton 4:09Okay.

Mike Curtin 4:10It specifies, uh, how the, uh, mayor's veto, uh, power can be exercised. It specifies how council can override, uh, that veto. So when you think of a city charter, you really should think of it as you described it, as sort of the city's constitution-

Tim Fulton 4:24Yeah

Mike Curtin 4:24... laying out the duties and powers of the offices, the balance of power, uh, and how money is to be safeguarded, uh, for example, how bonds can be issued, uh, and so forth and so on.

Tim Fulton 4:37What is unique about Columbus? I've frequently heard it said that we have a strong mayoral system. Our city auditor and our city attorney are both independently elected. From my perception, we have a pretty small council for the size of the city that we have. Can you sort of talk about some of those things?

Mike Curtin 4:55Yes. When, when the Charter Review Commission, uh, was studying our city, and when they decided to come up with the-

Tim Fulton 5:03And this is yours in 2014?

Mike Curtin 5:05No, this is the one in 1913 and 1914-

Tim Fulton 5:08Oh, okay

Mike Curtin 5:09... that led to the May 1914 vote that produced the charter that we currently have.

Tim Fulton 5:13Okay.

Mike Curtin 5:14The big debate in that commission was whether to have a, a federal plan, which is a strong mayor and council, which is what we have, or a commission. And, and they d- long debated having an 11-member to 15-member commission of people who would essentially hire a specialist, like a city manager.

Tim Fulton 5:34Okay.

Mike Curtin 5:35And then hire specialists to run various departments. Uh, that was a very intense argument. They dis- they negotiated and compromised on what is called the federal plan to sort of mirror what we have in Washington, you know, and a, a chief executive, you know, the president-

Tim Fulton 5:52Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 5:52... uh, and a legislative body. And so that's what they came up with. Uh, prior to that, we did have a ward system where we had city council members elected by ward, and, and, and this commission, uh, specified what they thought were a lot of sh- shortcomings of that plan. And so they proposed in the charter going to what they called the federal plan, uh, an elected mayor, a strong mayor, a seven-member council with each of the seven members elected at large, and two independently elected office holders, an auditor, who would be the chief accounting officer, and an attorney, who would be the chief law officer, uh, for a strong checks and balances system. And I think what is somewhat unique about Ohio, especially within, uh, uh, I, um, Columbus, within the state of Ohio, is, um, the amount of checks and balances, and to your point, a relatively small council now-

Tim Fulton 6:44Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 6:45... for a city that's exceeded 800,000 population and, uh, is rapidly headed toward a million population.

Tim Fulton 6:51Do we have evidence of the deliberations from that charter review in 1913?

Mike Curtin 6:57We have newspaper accounts.

Tim Fulton 6:59Okay.

Mike Curtin 7:00Uh, I've not seen minutes-

Tim Fulton 7:01Okay

Mike Curtin 7:02... of, of the, of that Charter Review Commission from 1913 and '14, but it was co-chaired by two very notable people. One, uh, William Oxley Thompson, who was then president for The Ohio State University.

Tim Fulton 7:14Yes.

Mike Curtin 7:14And Washington Gladden, who was a renowned, um, reformer and a renowned national leader in the Progressive Movement, who was pastor of the First, uh, Congregational Church.

Tim Fulton 7:27Huh.

Mike Curtin 7:27Um, and those two people co-chaired the, uh, review commission and put forward what they thought was a very, um, progressive document for its time.

Tim Fulton 7:37What did they view as the shortcomings for the ward system that we were in before?

Mike Curtin 7:41A lot of horse trading. Uh, a lot of, uh... We had in the late 1890s a, a 15-member council-

Tim Fulton 7:52Okay

Mike Curtin 7:52... uh, with 12 members elected by wards and three elected at large. Um, at one point, we even had a 38-member council earlier in the 1890s. You know, 19 wards, two members per ward for 38 members. Uh, they thought that council-

Tim Fulton 8:07And this was a city of population of...?

Mike Curtin 8:10Oh, in the 1890s? Uh, I couldn't tell you offhand.

Tim Fulton 8:13Okay.

Mike Curtin 8:14I'd have to go look it up.

Tim Fulton 8:15Okay.

Mike Curtin 8:15But obviously it was fairly small. But-

Tim Fulton 8:16I'm not here to quiz you, but-

Mike Curtin 8:17Yeah, by, by today's standards. They saw a corrupt city. They saw a, a city with a lot of vice, uh, especially a lot of houses of prostitution and gambling houses. They saw a corrupt police department-

Tim Fulton 8:30Okay

Mike Curtin 8:31... that was in, in bed, if you will, with the, uh, with the, uh, leaders of, uh, of these vice enterprises. They saw basically a weak council.

Tim Fulton 8:41Okay.

Mike Curtin 8:42You know, a members-by-district-

Tim Fulton 8:44Because of its distribution, essentially.

Mike Curtin 8:46Well, members who did not have the entire city's interests at heart-

Tim Fulton 8:49Okay

Mike Curtin 8:49... you know, who were only concerned about their own district and therefore led to a lot of horse trading, a lot of log rolling with other members.

Tim Fulton 8:55Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 8:56Uh, a lot of self-interest, if you will. Um, but they basically saw a city that was not on the move, uh, compared to other cities.

Tim Fulton 9:03Okay.

Mike Curtin 9:03And so they studied city administration plans from across the country and thought that this plan we have now was what we should go with.

Tim Fulton 9:13Okay. How is it a strong mayoral city? Is it because of that federalist structure, basically?

Mike Curtin 9:19Yes. The mayor, as the, as the chief executive of the executive branch, essentially has a point of authority over, uh, all the departments. So he appoints a safety director, he appoints a service director, you know, he appoints, you know, directors of all the city departments. Uh, and so that's, uh, a lot of power-

Tim Fulton 9:39That's where that strength lies

Mike Curtin 9:40... to give one elected official, and that's, uh, uh, unlike a lot of cities that have a city manager form of plan.

Tim Fulton 9:46Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 9:47Um, we've always had the strong mayor system since 1916. Uh, the executive branch clearly is the dominant branch in, in Columbus because the city is so large and there are so many departments to run.

Tim Fulton 9:57What do you attribute that difference to from our charter system to other cities?

Mike Curtin 10:05Um-

Tim Fulton 10:05Or do you have an opinion on it?

Mike Curtin 10:07What do I think are the merits and demerits of, of-

Tim Fulton 10:09Yeah

Mike Curtin 10:09... of a... Well, when you're, when you're electing only seven members at large, a- and every voter can vote on each and every one of those seven members, you know, clearly you're incentivizing a member to be beholden to the entire city-

Tim Fulton 10:23Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 10:23... and not just to one neighborhood or, or a congregation of neighborhoods. Uh, I think historically that's been a plus.

Tim Fulton 10:30Okay.

Mike Curtin 10:30Because if you look at Columbus relative to its peer cities, or any cities, quite frankly, in the Midwest or across the country, if on an economic health basis, we're doing awfully well.

Tim Fulton 10:40Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 10:40Uh, we're en- envied by m- by most cities in Ohio and by lots of cities across the country for our economic health. So clearly the system we have hasn't hurt us.

Tim Fulton 10:50Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 10:50Um, uh, a downside is when you get as large as we've gotten, it's hard for a, a one, uh, council member among seven-

Tim Fulton 10:59Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 11:00... to be in tune and in touch with, um, a- A city as diverse-

Tim Fulton 11:05Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 11:05... as we are. These are statutorily part-time council members.

Tim Fulton 11:09Right.

Mike Curtin 11:09Um, most of them, uh, are expected to have another job. This is a big burden. Um, it's a lot to put on a, a member. And the critics of the current system, uh, say that, um, when you're electing seven members at large in this day and age, it becomes a big money game.

Tim Fulton 11:26Okay.

Mike Curtin 11:26That you simply can't break through unless you're part of a party machine-

Tim Fulton 11:30Right

Mike Curtin 11:30... unless you're financed by the big money people in town. And there's merit to that argument.

Tim Fulton 11:35Yeah.

Mike Curtin 11:35These are very expensive races. It's hard for the so-called little guy, you know, to, uh, to have a chance of getting elected if you're not, you know, part of the inside circle that, quite frankly, is, uh, very much in tune with the, the chief economic interests of the city.

Tim Fulton 11:50Mm-hmm. Talk about the charter review commission that you co-chaired in 2014, what it was tasked with, and what changes you guys actually made. It was the last time that there was a comprehensive review of the charter.

Mike Curtin 12:03We had a five-member commission appointed by the mayor and the city council, uh, to review the entirety of the charter from start to finish and to make recommendations, uh, to council to go to, uh, the electorate with some, um, updates. Uh, it had been many years since there had been a, a thorough review of the charter.

Tim Fulton 12:25Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 12:25So a lot of what we recommended, quite frankly, was getting old, antiquated language out-

Tim Fulton 12:30Okay

Mike Curtin 12:31... and to update the, uh-

Tim Fulton 12:32Simply cleaning house, if you will.

Mike Curtin 12:34Cleaning house. I mean, for example, the, the recall procedure that was, uh, that was, uh, in the charter, uh, before the fall of 2014 required that anyone, uh, wanting to recall a city official had to post, uh, notices of recall in all the firehouses of the city. Uh, well, the firehouses of the city back in the day were, were gathering places where people-

Tim Fulton 12:57Right

Mike Curtin 12:58... would go to read the bulletin board and so forth. Well, that was clearly a, an outdated, you know, mode of, uh, of recalling an elected official. So most of what we recommended and the voters adopted in, in 2014 in, in three ballot issues that packaged, uh, about 14 or 15, uh, items to- total, uh, were, were cleanup mechanisms-

Tim Fulton 13:18Okay

Mike Curtin 13:18... more than anything else, and streamlining mechanisms and making sure that if you wanted to take advantage, um, uh, of the initiative or, uh, the recall, that there was a streamlined way to do it. The voters also approved a recommendation we made, uh, for judging the incapacity of a elected official, uh, or mayor or council members or auditor or attorney if they became incapacitated.

Tim Fulton 13:42Okay.

Mike Curtin 13:42If physically or mentally there was no mechanism in the charter.

Tim Fulton 13:46It just basically said incapacitated and that wasn't defined?

Mike Curtin 13:50There was no defined process-

Tim Fulton 13:52Okay

Mike Curtin 13:52... for how their colleagues could, could deal with that incapac-

Tim Fulton 13:55Just out of interest, what is the process-

Mike Curtin 13:57... incapacitation

Tim Fulton 13:57... for that?

Mike Curtin 13:58I would have to go back and read the, the charter. It basically, uh, uses a probate-like procedure.

Tim Fulton 14:05Okay.

Mike Curtin 14:05There would be an independent evaluation of the competency of the member. Let's assume, for example, uh, God forbid that we had a, uh, a long-serving elected official who, um, uh, became senile, had, um, something like Alzheimer's-

Tim Fulton 14:21Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 14:21... uh, and didn't know it.

Tim Fulton 14:23And insisted on remaining.

Mike Curtin 14:24And insisted on remaining.

Tim Fulton 14:25Right.

Mike Curtin 14:26Uh, we now have in the charter a provision, you know, whereby that elected officer could be evaluated.

Tim Fulton 14:32Gotcha.

Mike Curtin 14:32And if need be, we, we could take that person out.

Tim Fulton 14:35Now, what about a recall? Has that ever happened in Columbus?

Mike Curtin 14:39I am not aware of an actual recall having happened. It certainly hasn't happened in modern times.

Tim Fulton 14:43Okay. What is the process for it?

Mike Curtin 14:45You circulate petitions. You gather signatures of registered voters, um, of a certain threshold, and once you gather enough signatures and they are validated by the Board of Elections, you can basically have a, a measure go on the ballot that simply says, "Should this elected official be, uh, retained or not retained?"

Tim Fulton 15:04It's essentially the same as a citizen-led ballot initiative.

Mike Curtin 15:08It, it is. It's a, it's, it's a cit- citizen-led, um, it's an impeachment procedure, basically.

Tim Fulton 15:14One that doesn't have to define this is why. It, it simply is a, a confidence vote, right?

Mike Curtin 15:20That is correct. If you think somebody's doing a horrible job, if you think somebody is, um, deaf to the, the concerns of the, uh, of the electorate, you can circulate a recall petition. And if you get a sufficient number of signatures, get it on the ballot, and have an up or down vote on whether that person continues in office.

Tim Fulton 15:36I wanna get into sort of the district versus ward system. We're sitting down here literally the day after city council tabled their previous initiative as recommended by this last year's, uh, charter review commission. But I wanna talk about first, how does the charter review process work? There are open meetings, but how do you sort of address those, the issues? Do you just sort of do a reading and then bring in experts to consult with?

Mike Curtin 16:04Well, the most recent review of the charter was by a committee and not a commission, and the distinction being the committee that recommended we change the structure of city council was charged with reviewing only Section 3 of the charter.

Tim Fulton 16:19Got it.

Mike Curtin 16:19Section 3 of the charter is the section on the legislative branch and how, how it's composed. So that wasn't a full commission that looked at the entire charter.

Tim Fulton 16:27I see. Okay.

Mike Curtin 16:28It w- it was a s- committee tasked only with looking at Section 3.

Tim Fulton 16:33Okay.

Mike Curtin 16:33And, uh, that committee saw merit in retaining at large elections, allowing every voter to vote for every council member.

Tim Fulton 16:42Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 16:42But also thought there was merit in having council members, uh, essentially keenly focused on one district.

Tim Fulton 16:50Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 16:51And so that committee recommended expanding the current council from seven members to nine-

Tim Fulton 16:56Right

Mike Curtin 16:57... um, and requiring each of those nine to come from a specific district. So it was essentially a proposal to create a residency requirement-

Tim Fulton 17:05Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 17:06... whereby you would have to reside within one of these nine Districts to be able to, uh, run for that district seat on council. But once you qualified for the ballot through the primary, then, uh, you would actually be voted on by every, uh, voter in the city.

Tim Fulton 17:22Right.

Mike Curtin 17:23So it was sort of a hybrid, uh, proposal, and there aren't, there aren't many of these. There are a few of these out West, uh, I believe in Arizona and maybe one other Western state.

Tim Fulton 17:31Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 17:31So it was a, um, interesting proposal, and council clearly was divided by it. It's my understanding that, um, four members, uh, were ready to vote to put it on the ballot, and three members were not.

Tim Fulton 17:43Okay.

Mike Curtin 17:43And so there was still a lot of division within council, uh, about the, the merits of going forward now. And so rather than having a four-three vote a- and showing that kind of split-

Tim Fulton 17:53Right

Mike Curtin 17:53... uh, they decided to go back to the kitchen and try to, um, have a deeper look.

Tim Fulton 17:58Well, in my time, it is a pretty united council, at least since the mid-1990s.

Mike Curtin 18:06It, it, it is, and depending on your view, that can be a strength or a weakness.

Tim Fulton 18:09Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 18:09Uh, s- a lot of the folks who, um, who are the harshest critics of this council, you know, believe it's, it's too cocooned, that they, they, they, they work in cahoots too much, that, uh, showing some division, s- showing some difference of opinion when it comes to vote on things is healthy-

Tim Fulton 18:26Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 18:26... not unhealthy, and that we should have a little bit more of a, um, you know, healthy debate in front of the public on these measures-

Tim Fulton 18:33Yeah

Mike Curtin 18:33... uh, rather than-

Tim Fulton 18:33Well, 'cause it's what brings those issues to the fore, right? If you're simply presenting a one-sided argument, you're not discussing the other side of it. And if you're not an elected official, is The Columbus Dispatch gonna go out and try to get a quote from the other side?

Mike Curtin 18:47Well, i- in, on this issue, I believe The Dispatch has.

Tim Fulton 18:50Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 18:52Um, I, I do believe that, um, uh, people like Will Patrick, who's running for council this fall-

Tim Fulton 18:57Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 18:58... uh, people like Jonathan Beard, who has sponsored and who has spearheaded, uh, initiatives to change the composition of council in the past-

Tim Fulton 19:05Which many would argue is the reason why this committee came-

Mike Curtin 19:09Sure

Tim Fulton 19:09... about in the first place.

Mike Curtin 19:10Oh, oh, absolutely. I think, I think the work, you know, done by the Jonathan Beards and the Will Patricks and others who are the, among the harshest critics of the current composition of council-

Tim Fulton 19:19Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 19:19... uh, clearly that spurred, uh, council wanting to, to give this issue a thorough review, uh, invite as many voices in as possible, and, uh, see where the discussion led.

Tim Fulton 19:31Right.

Mike Curtin 19:31Uh, it's obvious from reading the paper that this process has not pacified, uh, those critics-

Tim Fulton 19:37No

Mike Curtin 19:37... at all. They still see it as a totally inside baseball game, and, uh, they would like to, to go to a true district system.

Tim Fulton 19:44Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 19:45We'll see where that goes. I mean, as you know, it was on the ballot in August of 2016-

Tim Fulton 19:49Yeah

Mike Curtin 19:49... in a special election, which was unfortunate because you only had about a 9% turnout-

Tim Fulton 19:53Right

Mike Curtin 19:53... that election. But it went down about 72 to 28. And so if one of the-

Tim Fulton 19:57Were you surprised by that?

Mike Curtin 20:00Somewhat.

Tim Fulton 20:01Okay.

Mike Curtin 20:01I w-

Tim Fulton 20:02I, I was blown away that through a special election, there was so much of an anti-vote.

Mike Curtin 20:08Yeah. Well, um, there was a, there was a campaign conducted against it.

Tim Fulton 20:13Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 20:13Um, there wasn't much money, uh, s- uh, you know, in a campaign to support it. Uh, and usually in, in special elections, your, your, your hardest core voters come out, and those are people who tend to be more aligned with the status quo, I think.

Tim Fulton 20:27Okay.

Mike Curtin 20:27Um, and quite frankly, uh, and I've been in Columbus for 65 years, you know, all of my life, and, uh, I, I've not seen a organic, you know, authentic grassroots impetus out there for change. You know?

Tim Fulton 20:39Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 20:39Where's, where's the voice for change? It's, it's fairly small, if you ask me. It's not broad-based. And so if one's trying to defend the status quo, and I'm not. I mean, I think any, any system can work.

Tim Fulton 20:53Right.

Mike Curtin 20:54It, it, the real question is who you elect-

Tim Fulton 20:56Right

Mike Curtin 20:56... uh, to make that system work. Any system can work, and cities across the country show that any system can work. It's really, I think, what type of behavior do you want to incentivize?

Tim Fulton 21:06Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 21:06Uh, different systems incentivize different behaviors.

Tim Fulton 21:09What is the process that that committee and your commission went through to s- to evaluate? Do you benchmark against other cities?

Mike Curtin 21:18Yes. The commission I was on met for over a four-month period, and through city council staff, commissioned a lot of research-

Tim Fulton 21:26Okay

Mike Curtin 21:26... to show how we compared and contrasted with other cities in Ohio and other cities across the country, um, in terms of the major provisions of the charter. So it was a deep dive, and, uh, we, we read reams and reams of, uh, research documents in considering what we might recommend in the way of change. The current, uh, committee or the recently, uh, impaneled committee only looked at the composition of council.

Tim Fulton 21:52Right.

Mike Curtin 21:52And they held hearings throughout the city, uh, most of which were very, very poorly attended.

Tim Fulton 21:57Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 21:58Uh, I went to a couple of them and, you know, there were maybe a handful of people in the audience.

Tim Fulton 22:02Okay.

Mike Curtin 22:02Which again speaks to my earlier point of, you know, where's the-

Tim Fulton 22:07Where is this grassroots uprising?

Mike Curtin 22:09Yeah. Where, where is the call for change? It's, it's fairly, uh, narrow and deep-

Tim Fulton 22:15Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 22:15... as opposed to being widespread, I think. And so that's one of the things that's given pause to this council, I believe. You know? Uh, there's a debate going on, I think, over there at, uh, 90 West Broad-

Tim Fulton 22:25Uh-huh

Mike Curtin 22:26... over who are we responding to, you know? Is there really a momentum out there for change, or are we just going through all this to, um, uh-

Tim Fulton 22:34To supplicate a couple of people?

Mike Curtin 22:36Yeah.

Tim Fulton 22:37Yeah.

Mike Curtin 22:37Yeah.

Tim Fulton 22:38Can I ask your commission, while it was seated in order to... I think the stated intention was to simply update a lot of the language that was in the charter, why you guys didn't make more changes to it? Or was that simply not part of what you were impaneled to do?

Mike Curtin 22:56We were not asked to recommend specific changes.

Tim Fulton 23:00Okay.

Mike Curtin 23:00Uh, we did, uh, quite frankly shy away from the question of composition of council-

Tim Fulton 23:05Okay

Mike Curtin 23:05... because we knew that was on a separate track. You know, we knew that, uh, there were, uh-

Tim Fulton 23:10Even in 2014?

Mike Curtin 23:11Oh, yes.

Tim Fulton 23:12Okay.

Mike Curtin 23:12Yeah. You know, we knew there were efforts being made to, um- Qualify an initiative for the ballot. And so we thought, "Well, that's gonna take care of itself."

Tim Fulton 23:21Okay.

Mike Curtin 23:21It looked as though the momentum was there from this group to qualify an initiative and rather than, you know, get in its way-

Tim Fulton 23:29Right

Mike Curtin 23:29... rather than look like we were trying to compete with it, let that effort run its course.

Tim Fulton 23:34Or preempt it, really.

Mike Curtin 23:35Yeah, we didn't wanna preempt it.

Tim Fulton 23:36Right.

Mike Curtin 23:37You know, we really didn't want to, um, look as though we were a vehicle for trying to neuter, you know, that, that effort. Um, that was running on a separate track. So we, we shied away from it, and we really focused on recommendations that we thought would, you know, clean up a nearly century-old document. And there were a lot of cobwebs.

Tim Fulton 23:55Right.

Mike Curtin 23:55There was a lot of arcane language. There was a lot of sexist language-

Tim Fulton 23:59Okay

Mike Curtin 24:00... uh, referring to he's all the time.

Tim Fulton 24:02Right.

Mike Curtin 24:02You have to remember this charter predated women having the vote.

Tim Fulton 24:06Right.

Mike Curtin 24:06Uh, women didn't get to vote until 1920. This charter, uh, was voted on in 1914.

Tim Fulton 24:11Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 24:12So there was just a lot of old, uh, cobwebs to clean out, quite frankly, and that's what we did. There, there was a lot we did not need to change.

Tim Fulton 24:20Okay.

Mike Curtin 24:20And one of the beauties of our city charter is a lot of it has served us well for a century. I would argue that having an independently elected city attorney-

Tim Fulton 24:29Okay

Mike Curtin 24:29... is a huge advantage for Columbus.

Tim Fulton 24:31Talk about what the virtue of that is.

Mike Curtin 24:34Uh, a city attorney who is beholden to the voters and not to the mayor or council.

Tim Fulton 24:38Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 24:39In most cities, the chief legal officer is an appointee of the mayor or the-

Tim Fulton 24:43And so can be instructed to work for the mayor, basically.

Mike Curtin 24:46Yes, can be instructed to do this and not do that. Our city attorney, as an independently elected office holder, is beholden to the electorate, and if he has to deliver some unwelcome news to the mayor, he can do it or she can do it. We've had both male and female city attorneys. Same thing with the city auditor. We haven't had a female city auditor, but the city auditor by charter is a chief accounting officer, uh, of the city, and Hugh Dorian, who's filled that role now for a half century-

Tim Fulton 25:13Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 25:13... is famously independent for letting both Republican and Democratic mayors over his long tenure know when he disagreed with them.

Tim Fulton 25:21Okay.

Mike Curtin 25:21For example, when Tom Moody, uh, in the 1970s, was hell-bent on getting a trash-burning power plant-

Tim Fulton 25:27Okay

Mike Curtin 25:28... which went on to be the biggest white elephant that this city has ever sponsored-

Tim Fulton 25:31Okay

Mike Curtin 25:32... 'cause the thing never worked right. It was a, it was a multi, multi-hundred of millions of, millions of dollar boondoggle. You know, Hugh Dorian, our city auditor, was saying, "I oppose this because it's not financially stable-

Tim Fulton 25:44Okay

Mike Curtin 25:45... and it's not financially proven, and I think we're making an awfully big bet here that we're likely to lose."

Tim Fulton 25:50But in the end, the mayor can push that through if they want.

Mike Curtin 25:53Well, the mayor, the mayor put a bond issue on the ballot, um, that the voters approved-

Tim Fulton 25:57Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 25:58... uh, in 1977, which paved the way for the construction of a trash-burning power plant that never worked.

Tim Fulton 26:04Okay.

Mike Curtin 26:05And, uh, a city auditor or, or a chief accounting officer appointed by the mayor would never have had the independence and the, uh, cojones, if you will, you know, to, uh, say, "Mayor, I disagree with you," and to publicly disagree.

Tim Fulton 26:20Right. The public never would've heard about it, basically.

Mike Curtin 26:22The public never would've heard about that.

Tim Fulton 26:23Right.

Mike Curtin 26:24And so, uh, whether it was a trash-burning power plant or whether it was Hugh Dorian, uh, publicly, uh, informing Mayor Coleman a few years ago they were spending money too fast.

Tim Fulton 26:35Okay.

Mike Curtin 26:36You know, we had a city income tax cr- in- tax increase in 2009-

Tim Fulton 26:39Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 26:40... when it went from 2% to 2.5% of the city income tax. And after, uh, several years, uh, City Auditor Dorian wrote a memo to the mayor, which of course became public and-

Tim Fulton 26:52Public record, right

Mike Curtin 26:53... it became a, uh, story on the front page of The Dispatch saying, "We're burning through this money awfully quickly, and if, if you're not careful, we'll have spent this entire increase in a matter of a few years." And that was a wake-up call to the mayor. It was a wake-up call to the city, and quite frankly, it prompted a, uh, expenditure review committee to, uh, start, um, looking at how they could curtail the increase in city general fund spending. If you don't have an independent chief accounting officer-

Tim Fulton 27:21Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 27:21... that never would've happened. So those are two examples where Columbus is very well served by this charter and those two independently elected offices.

Tim Fulton 27:30Have there been public conflicts between the city attorney and the mayor?

Mike Curtin 27:34Um, there have been some. They are usually behind the scenes-

Tim Fulton 27:39Okay

Mike Curtin 27:39... and not public because the city attorney has a legal fiduciary obligation to his clients. His clients are the, uh, other city officials.

Tim Fulton 27:51Right.

Mike Curtin 27:51The city attorney, you know, represents the mayor just like an, a private attorney would represent you.

Tim Fulton 27:56Right.

Mike Curtin 27:56And so even though that attorney is beholden to the, to the voters, that city attorney also has a, uh, legal fiduciary obligation to the mayor, to council, to not go out of his way, you know, to embarrass them.

Tim Fulton 28:11Right.

Mike Curtin 28:11So there's... He must walk a line-

Tim Fulton 28:13Right

Mike Curtin 28:13... on the one hand being independent, on the other hand advising his clients in a way that is in their best interest. And so it, it's rare to have a real big public clash between your city attorney and your other city office holders.

Tim Fulton 28:27If you had a crystal ball, do you think that there will be significant changes to the charter, let's say, within the next five years, and specifically to the composition of council?

Mike Curtin 28:38I think we'll see a change within the next five years-

Tim Fulton 28:41Okay

Mike Curtin 28:41... uh, of one kind or another, simply because a seven-member, part-time, at-large council has a hard time representing a city that's rapidly approaching one million people.

Tim Fulton 28:52Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 28:53It, it's... There has to be some give one way or another. I believe the council will either grow to 9 or 11 members and, and remain at large-

Tim Fulton 29:02Okay

Mike Curtin 29:02... or there will, or it will grow and we will have sort of, some sort of hybrid plan that combines districts with at large. But Everything changes over time. It may take 100 years for things to change-

Tim Fulton 29:16Yeah

Mike Curtin 29:16... as it has in this case. But it's hard for me to envision a seven-member at-large council being in place five, 10, 20 years from now.

Tim Fulton 29:24Do you think that there's better ways or different ways, speaking to you with your background both as a public official from the 17th House District and from your background at The Dispatch, are there things that you believe council should be doing to address some of the, the pain points that were brought up in the citizen-led ballot issue in 2016, like neighborhoods not getting the attention they deserve?

Mike Curtin 29:50Well, I think one thing we can do, and a number of people have discussed this, is to strengthen the area commissions.

Tim Fulton 29:56Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 29:57Um, Columbus has had a network of area commissions going back to the 1970s. Uh, a city with the kinda size and diversity that Columbus has, uh, needs many councils, if you will-

Tim Fulton 30:10Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 30:10... which area commissions are-

Tim Fulton 30:11Right

Mike Curtin 30:12... to focus specifically on, uh, the needs, the strengths and weaknesses of those areas.

Tim Fulton 30:17But they are simply tasked with making recommendations to council.

Mike Curtin 30:22They, they, they only have recommending authority, but some of those commissions are extremely influential.

Tim Fulton 30:28Mm-hmm.

Mike Curtin 30:28The Clintonville Area Commission, for example, long has been extremely influential. If you're a developer wanting to develop something in Clintonville, you don't wanna run afoul of the Clintonville Area Commission.

Tim Fulton 30:39Right.

Mike Curtin 30:39You know, they make recommendations that are taken very seriously by city council and the mayor. Um, other areas of town have had, um, mixed success with commissions, some with strong commissions, some with weak, and some with, or don't even have commissions now.

Tim Fulton 30:55Right.

Mike Curtin 30:56But I, I think, um, a bona fide, authentic attempt to make sure that each area of town has a civic body-

Tim Fulton 31:04Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 31:05... you know, an area commission, a civic association that has, uh, real power, that has a recommending authority that's taken seriously by City Hall, uh, is one way, uh, and a pr- a time-proven way-

Tim Fulton 31:17Mm-hmm

Mike Curtin 31:17... you know, to address local, local needs, if you will.

Tim Fulton 31:21Right.

Mike Curtin 31:21And if we do get to councils by district at some point, I would hope that the boundaries of those council districts would be coterminous.

Tim Fulton 31:29Okay.

Mike Curtin 31:29Would be in sync with boundaries of a number of these area commissions and civic associations. It would make no sense to balkanize the city, to have council districts that weren't in conformance-

Tim Fulton 31:39Right

Mike Curtin 31:39... with neighborhood, you know, commission and area commission, uh, districts. I think great care should be taken if and when we have council by districts to make sure those districts a, align with each other so, uh, we don't have a s- gerrymandering at the city level.

Tim Fulton 31:55Absolutely. Mike, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate it.

Mike Curtin 31:59Thank you for having me. It's been a privilege.

Tim Fulton 32:08Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of The Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite civil servant. If you're interested in sponsoring The Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.