Wolf’s Ridge Brewing

Tim Fulton 0:08Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, I sat down with Chris Davison. He is the head brewer at Wolf's Ridge Brewing. We went deep into sour beers, the brewing process, the brewing community here in Columbus, what other breweries in town you should be checking out, why Columbus is a young beer scene, and why that's a good thing. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by Little Rock Bar. Little Rock Bar is located at 944 North Fourth Street in Italian Village. With 30 beers on tap, Little Rock Bar has happy hour from 4:00 to 8:00 PM every day. Every Tuesday, get $3 draft beers all night while you enjoy Rock Your Cock Off Karaoke. Wednesdays is Everybody's a Comedian hosted by Travis Haywisher. It's like trivia, but you prove your snark instead of smarts. Info, hours, and upcoming events at littlerockbar.net. Everyone's night should have a little rock. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Chris Davison, the head brewer at Wolf's Ridge Brewing. Chris, how are you, sir?

Chris Davison 1:47I'm doing great today.

Tim Fulton 1:48Good. We are sitting here at the Idea Foundry sampling the recent sour beer that you guys released, Terre de Sauvage. It is delicious, first of all. You guys are releasing another sour beer. What's that one called?

Chris Davison 2:02Red Legacy. It's a Flanders red ale. Um, and, uh, compared to Terre de Sauvage, uh, which was a three-month beer that was fermented in the barrel with a mixed culture of different yeasts and bacteria, and it was kind of designed as a production, uh, sour for us. So I wanted to be able to produce a decent quantity of sour beer regularly and have it in our tap room or on store shelves rather than a flash in the pan once a year for the next five years-

Tim Fulton 2:32Okay

Chris Davison 2:33... which is the way we could have gone, um, had we gone longer term. So Red Legacy is the opposite of that, and that was the, uh, I guess the second sour beer that I ever brewed at Wolf's Ridge, and it was in the barrel for 16 months.

Tim Fulton 2:45Okay.

Chris Davison 2:46And the entire-

Tim Fulton 2:46And we should... And just to cut you off here

Chris Davison 2:48Sure

Tim Fulton 2:48... we should say that Wolf's Ridge Brewing is a, is a restaurant and tap room located just north of downtown on North Fourth Street. You said production beer. What's... A- And I understand that to mean basically you just wanna be able to produce a lot of it-

Chris Davison 3:01Mm

Tim Fulton 3:01... or you wanna be able to keep producing it. What's the difference between a production beer and, what would you call it, a one-off?

Chris Davison 3:08Yeah, kind of. Um, so we did re-brew Red Legacy into the same barrels. The same yeast culture survived in, in those barrels, and, um, is already fermenting away on a new batch. But because of the time commitment, 16 months, um, it's not really going to ever be a beer that is always available.

Tim Fulton 3:25Okay.

Chris Davison 3:25Uh, we did-

Tim Fulton 3:27So Red Legacy is special.

Chris Davison 3:29It is very special, yeah. Especially because of that time commitment for us right now, um, you know, that's the longest aged beer we've ever released on a larger scale.

Tim Fulton 3:37Okay.

Chris Davison 3:37But it was still only 500 bottles. Uh, and the same, uh... There, there were more barrels I guess, but the, the single run of Terre de Sauvage that we did in May, uh, yielded 1,500 barrels plus about 25 kegs. And, um, for Red Legacy we're gonna... We got 500 bottles and about 20 kegs, and that's all gonna be gone by, um, hopefully July 1st. If not, uh, the kegs may last a couple weeks, um, and make their way around town a little bit. And I'll save a little bit back at the brewery for special occasions, but that beer is gonna be gone in a day. Uh, Terre de Sauvage will be around, uh, for a while. So yeah, that's, that's the main difference is that it, it'll be around, um, all the time or most of the time in quantity.

Tim Fulton 4:18And so how do you g- So why sour beer? It seems like a trend right now. What... I- Is it just interesting to you that you get to do something new? You've been brewing at Wolf's Ridge for round about three years.

Chris Davison 4:29Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:29You were at Columbus Brewing before that.

Chris Davison 4:31Yep.

Tim Fulton 4:32Why sour beer?

Chris Davison 4:34I've, uh, I honestly always wanted to brew sour beer, and that was one of the first things I started asking the owners at Wolf's Ridge when I got hired on was I wanted to do two things that they had never done before, well, arguably three. I wanted to brew lagers.

Tim Fulton 4:48Okay.

Chris Davison 4:48Which, um, the second beer that I personally designed as a recipe at Wolf's Ridge was a smoked lager, which was scary for a lot of reasons because smoked beer is not always the fastest seller, but-

Tim Fulton 4:59Okay

Chris Davison 5:00... um, it's turned into our most award-winning beer. Um, it's called Buchenrauch. Uh, but then the other two things I wanted to do was barrel aging and sour beer, and, and really that goes hand in hand, at least for me, is that you age, uh, and maybe even ferment sour beer in a barrel. Uh, so within a year or less, uh, we started putting Dire Wolf, our imperial stout, into bourbon barrels and rum barrels. But, uh, it took a little bit longer to start doing sours, and the main reason for that was, um, there's a lot of expense and, as we talked about earlier, a longer time commitment sometimes for-

Tim Fulton 5:32Okay

Chris Davison 5:32... the sour beer. But there's also a risk of cross-contamination. And I think it's somewhat over-

Tim Fulton 5:37Cross-contamination because... I mean, they're in barrels. What are they cross, cross-contaminating?

Chris Davison 5:41Um, so because of the different, uh, yeasts and bacterias that are in there. And so even though, um, the beer is contained within a barrel And you may not see it leaking out of the barrel.

Tim Fulton 5:52Okay.

Chris Davison 5:53Uh, it may hold pressure. Um, if you pull the bung off, some of the barrels, um, some pressure may actually escape and it, you know, you'll hear a rush of air come out. Um-

Tim Fulton 6:01And you called it the bung?

Chris Davison 6:03Yeah.

Tim Fulton 6:03Okay

Chris Davison 6:03It is, it is a bung.

Tim Fulton 6:04And so it is a bunghole.

Chris Davison 6:06It is a bunghole.

Tim Fulton 6:07Got it.

Chris Davison 6:07Yep. So despite all of that, um, it's still a wood vessel and wood is porous.

Tim Fulton 6:12Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 6:12And so, uh, for example, when, uh, we were getting ready to package Red Legacy, we had to get it out of the barrels, and when we looked inside, after 16 months in our warm basement, uh, about a third of that barrel had evaporated. Um-

Tim Fulton 6:26Oh, wow

Chris Davison 6:27... despite being closed up the entire time, the wood is porous enough that, um, a lot of the water content evaporated out.

Tim Fulton 6:33But that's not cross-contamination.

Chris Davison 6:34No, that's not cross-contamination, but that's evidence that the, the wood is porous. And so, um, if air's getting in or out, so potentially can, um, microscopic, um, yeast or bacteria.

Tim Fulton 6:46Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 6:47And especially once you start moving that stuff around, if that barrel touches another barrel that's holding clean beer, like Dire Wolf, um, there may be yeast alive on the outside of that wood that migrates-

Tim Fulton 6:58That's a lager, right?

Chris Davison 6:59... to the other wood. Uh, that's the imperial stout.

Tim Fulton 7:01Okay.

Chris Davison 7:01Yeah. Um, uh, there are stories of some breweries that store two barrels side by side and, uh, um, one of them w- is Jester King down in Austin, Texas, and they recently re- re- released a beer. Um, I forget the name of it, but it was basically, um, it was all brewed to be one beer I think, but, um, some of it went into some sherry barrels and there's, I guess, a unique set of yeast that ferment sherry-

Tim Fulton 7:26Okay

Chris Davison 7:26... wine. And even though the wine had been emptied and had been refilled with beer, that yeast was alive in that barrel, and it, that barrel had a unique flavor because of it, and then the barrels next to it tasted the same even though they were not sherry barrels, and that yeast somehow through touching, through the air, whatever-

Tim Fulton 7:43Right

Chris Davison 7:43... migrated into the other barrels and so they thought that was a really cool special thing. Um, there's another example-

Tim Fulton 7:48So the beer is essentially a happy accident.

Chris Davison 7:50Yeah, exactly.

Tim Fulton 7:51It's not what they planned for.

Chris Davison 7:51Um, but it was also, you know, a form of cross-contamination. And then even beyond that is if you start using the same, uh, tanks-

Tim Fulton 7:58Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 7:59... hoses, gaskets, et cetera, um, for, for sour beer and clean beer, um, the yeast and bacteria that we want in the sour beer to create that profile we don't want in, in our normal beer.

Tim Fulton 8:10Okay.

Chris Davison 8:11And if it makes its way into that normal beer and ferments it, it could cause over-carbonation, uh, maybe bottle bombs, um, where a bottle would explode because it continues to ferment and-

Tim Fulton 8:21Right

Chris Davison 8:22... creates too much pressure. It could cause off flavors or haze issues. Um, and sometimes there are happy accident stories out there where brewers accidentally create sour beer that tastes good, but more often than not, it probably tastes really bad.

Tim Fulton 8:34Okay.

Chris Davison 8:35Um, and-

Tim Fulton 8:35So let's-

Chris Davison 8:36Yeah

Tim Fulton 8:37... now, now that we've gone deep, deep down the path-

Chris Davison 8:39Deep, deep down the rabbit hole

Tim Fulton 8:40... of, of cross-contamination and the bad things that can happen to brewing beer in the process, what makes sour beer different? Is it you're doing a negative thing to beer, but in a controlled way in order to make it taste good? I feel like that's what you just inferred.

Chris Davison 8:53Well, uh, i- in my case I'm doing a, I, I would say it's a positive thing because it's intended and I really like the outcome. Um, but I am a brewer that hates hearing the stories of the happy accident that-

Tim Fulton 9:05Right

Chris Davison 9:05... um, that yields a beer that's so good somehow, um, accidentally soured stout that we're gonna bottle it and sell it to you at a premium.

Tim Fulton 9:14Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 9:15And it may be delicious, but I just kind of hate that story because to me it tells me that you did something careless-

Tim Fulton 9:22Right

Chris Davison 9:22... and you're trying to salvage that. And I think there's a lot of cases where brewers say that that happened and it's this great beer, but it actually is really bad. But the-

Tim Fulton 9:30So what is different from sour beer from, like, regular beer?

Chris Davison 9:33Um, so but, but yeah. So the difference between sour beer and a regular beer kind of depends on your definition of sour.

Tim Fulton 9:39Okay.

Chris Davison 9:40Um, when you're using the term sour, then it, it probably just means there's some sort of aci- acidic content to the beer.

Tim Fulton 9:47Oh, right.

Chris Davison 9:47But sometimes people say sour and they're referring to a beer fermented with Brettanomyces, which is a form of yeast that does not create acidity, but it does create the typical sour funky profile that's in a lot of sour beers.

Tim Fulton 9:59And so what are we drinking right now?

Chris Davison 10:01So, um, Terre de Sauvage is a mi- a mixed culture, meaning there's Brettanomyces, which is creating, um, a funky aroma and flavor, but also there's Lactobacillus, which is creating, um, acid.

Tim Fulton 10:14Okay.

Chris Davison 10:15And it, and there's not a lot of flavor or aroma coming off of the lacto, and that mixture is what, um, creates the profile in this beer. You can do a bre- beer that's just, like, a very clean yeast, like a Kolsch yeast plus Lactobacillus, and that's kind of what a Berliner Weisse is.

Tim Fulton 10:29Oh, okay.

Chris Davison 10:30Where it's a very clean acidity. It's not funky smelling. Um, you can do a, a beer like, um, the Belgian Orval or Boulevard, um, Saison Brett, which you can find on shelves around town-

Tim Fulton 10:41Okay

Chris Davison 10:41... that are not sour, but they have a very funky, grassy, barnyardy aroma. Um, that is really good. And technically some people will say those are all sours, but they're all drastically different.

Tim Fulton 10:52Okay.

Chris Davison 10:52So it kind of depends on your definition.

Tim Fulton 10:53So what's different about this, just to translate it-

Chris Davison 10:56Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 10:56... a little bit, is simply you're adding another culture to it?

Chris Davison 11:02Yeah.

Tim Fulton 11:03Got it.

Chris Davison 11:04Um, and-

Tim Fulton 11:04But it's n- but it's not a, "Oh, I have to heat it up and cool it down a whole lot," or it, it's not something where it's what I would think of as, like, a controlled burn-

Chris Davison 11:14Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 11:15... if you know what I mean. Like, if you wanna age some brick, basically what you're doing is- Fucking it up, you're not fucking up the beer in a controlled way. It is truly just a different ingredient that's causing it to taste that way.

Chris Davison 11:28Yeah, yeah. In this case, it's fully in- in- intentional. It is... These yeast and bacteria strains are famously a little bit more, um, temperamental or difficult to work with.

Tim Fulton 11:38Okay.

Chris Davison 11:39So they're less predictable over time as compared to our, our standard ale yeast that we ferment Clear Sky, and Driftwood, and Howling Moon with. That yeast is super predictable. It, it behaves the same. Um, it's very forgiving. The cultures in our barrels, uh, for Terre de Sauvage, for instance, um, are not very predictable. And so far-

Tim Fulton 11:57So then how do you... As a brewer, you're putting everything together. Talk about, for those that don't know, what is the preparation process before you're putting it into the barrel?

Chris Davison 12:06It-

Tim Fulton 12:06What goes into it?

Chris Davison 12:07So first we gotta, we gotta get a barrel. And right now we're working mostly, mostly with, um, spent barrels, um, that previously held, what I'll say a clean beer, a non-sour beer.

Tim Fulton 12:17Okay.

Chris Davison 12:18So probably Dire Wolf. Our imperial stout is, is usually what's in the barrel beforehand. And f- and it's just very economical for us to reuse that barrel. But in an ideal world, all of our sour barrels would be ex-wine barrels. They're just a little bit more conducive to that environment and the flavor profile that we want.

Tim Fulton 12:33And where do you guys get those?

Chris Davison 12:34So most of our bourbon barrels are, really all of our bourbon barrels are Watershed.

Tim Fulton 12:38Oh, okay.

Chris Davison 12:38But we do have some Caribbean rum barrels, a port barrel, a sherry barrel, and a, uh... We just added a Marsala wine barrel from, uh, Italy to our sour fleet. But, um, so we're starting with that spent barrel, and if it has never had sour beer in it before, then there's two ways we can acidify it. Um, and typically I'll brew a recipe that's specifically designed to be soured since, um, in our case, we're fermenting sour beer in the barrel. I don't wanna ferment our sour beer in a stainless tank-

Tim Fulton 13:06Okay

Chris Davison 13:06... 'cause we have to use those for our clean beer, and I don't want to risk that cross-contamination we mentioned. So, um-

Tim Fulton 13:12And s- and part of that is the, is a function of the size of your space and the number of-

Chris Davison 13:17Very much so.

Tim Fulton 13:17Got it.

Chris Davison 13:18Yeah. So we're fermenting, we're treating the barrels like they're a tank, and we'll brew a recipe to, um, hopefully create the flavor profiles and attributes that we want, um, with our grain. Um, low hopping rates help produce, um, or facilitate, um, higher acid levels.

Tim Fulton 13:32Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 13:33So, um, our next Terre de Sauvage is, um, colored green, and the gold is very acidic. It is a different grain bill.

Tim Fulton 13:40The beer isn't green, though?

Chris Davison 13:42No. No.

Tim Fulton 13:42Okay.

Chris Davison 13:43It... No, yeah, that's just the color. So yeah, the... We're drinking Terre de Sauvage Gold.

Tim Fulton 13:46Right.

Chris Davison 13:46Um, very acidic version. Terre de Sauvage Green is the next one, and that one's dry hopped.

Tim Fulton 13:50Okay.

Chris Davison 13:51And it, um, it's, it's a lot, um, heavier on the hopping side. Um, the IBUs, the bitterness levels are a lot higher, so, um, the lactobacillus couldn't... It really can't tolerate high IBUs.

Tim Fulton 14:01Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 14:01So it's not very acidic compared to this.

Tim Fulton 14:04So when you, when you put the ingredients into the barrel-

Chris Davison 14:07Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 14:08... you basically do that, seal it up, and then do you have to turn it? You just wait 16 months?

Chris Davison 14:14Um, so, uh, so then we wanna introduce the desired cultures, desired yeast strains.

Tim Fulton 14:19Okay.

Chris Davison 14:19And so we may, um, harvest them from a previous barrel or a culture we have on-hand for some reason. We may buy a new set of, uh, yeasts and bacteria, um, through our yeast supplier-

Tim Fulton 14:31Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 14:31... um, which is White Labs, the same that most homebrewers use-

Tim Fulton 14:34Okay

Chris Davison 14:35... um, find at the homebrew shop. Um, but we, I... So depending on the beer I'm creating, I'll select certain strains of brett, or lactobacillus, or what have you, and we can add those to the barrel. Or you can actually add a small amount of, um, of fermenting beer from another barrel, and the, the live yeast in that beer will inoculate, um, the fresh wart, the fresh beer that you add to that barrel-

Tim Fulton 14:55Okay

Chris Davison 14:55... and then it'll start fermenting. But either way, it'll start going, and then a few days later, um, uh, usually one to, to three days, you'll start seeing, um, foam coming out of the top of the tank, and you know it's fermenting. It's creating carbon dioxide gas and foam.

Tim Fulton 15:07And so then it's time to seal it up?

Chris Davison 15:10Uh, so it's kind of always sealed, but we have, uh, mungs that are specially designed f- to allow fermentation. So they have a, um, center stopper that, um, when there's enough pressure, it pops up.

Tim Fulton 15:22And then it goes right back down.

Chris Davison 15:23Kinda like a tur- turkey thermometer or whatever.

Tim Fulton 15:25Okay.

Chris Davison 15:25And it has holes in it, and it allows that gas and foam out so the barrel doesn't blow up.

Tim Fulton 15:29Gotcha.

Chris Davison 15:29And then when it's done, that, um, that little stopper will sink back in and seal it up, or-

Tim Fulton 15:35So how do you test it, especially with a beer that you're gonna be fermenting for 16 months? How do you... You just sort of like, "Okay, I'm doing some research." Like, you don't get to sample it-

Chris Davison 15:46No

Tim Fulton 15:47... as it goes.

Chris Davison 15:47I mean, uh, we can sample from the barrel, um, throughout the process. But before creating that recipe, I have no guideline beyond my own research-

Tim Fulton 15:56Okay

Chris Davison 15:56... and what I've had from other brewers. So I, I definitely do a lot of research before brewing into these barrels, but it's, it's a big risk. There's a, there's a large risk factor there, especially the longer that time commitment.

Tim Fulton 16:07Now, how much sharing happens in that community? Is it so you're looking at what other people have done-

Chris Davison 16:12Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 16:12... but are they, you know, putting out a blog entry about how, "Here's how I did X, Y, Z thing"? 'Cause that seems pretty proprietary, right?

Chris Davison 16:20Uh, for the most part, that's one of the great things about craft beer is that, um, there is a lot of sharing going on right now.

Tim Fulton 16:28Okay.

Chris Davison 16:28Uh, there is m- right now, uh, right now especially, there's more literature, written books, and articles, and publications that talk about processes than ever before. There are actually blogs. There are webinars that I've listened in on from famous breweries around the country and how they do their thing. Um, there's a homebrew, um, podcast-

Tim Fulton 16:48Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 16:48... that brings in, um, really acclaimed professional brewers that give advice that applies to professional and homebrew, uh, systems because the processes are basically the same. They're just different. They're different scales.

Tim Fulton 16:59Have you been on there?

Chris Davison 17:00I have not personally been on there.

Tim Fulton 17:01You're pretty good at talking inside baseball. Trying a little bit to pull you into the general audience sphere, you know.

Chris Davison 17:10Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 17:10How did you get into this? You came out of Ohio State-

Chris Davison 17:13Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 17:13... long, probably back when I did, majored in political science and philosophy. How'd you start brewing?

Chris Davison 17:20I mean, I, I, I kinda came about it in a weird way. Uh, I didn't really drink a lot of alcohol when I was younger.

Tim Fulton 17:25Okay.

Chris Davison 17:26And when I finally started drinking alcohol, it really was not beer. It was, um, wine and spirits and things like that. And-

Tim Fulton 17:34Okay

Chris Davison 17:36Um, I kind of was really turned off by the macro commercials and the s- the synthetic lifestyles that they promoted or, or claimed you would find if you drank their beer and all that really turned me off.

Tim Fulton 17:48The bar scene. You didn't like the bar scene.

Chris Davison 17:49I didn't like the bar scene. I didn't like the commercial nature of, you know, Bud Light and, you know, saying it's a party to drink the beer, was it, that's not real. I didn't really like the-

Tim Fulton 17:58And this is because, and this is why you were a philosophy major .

Chris Davison 18:00Yeah. Um, and I, I also didn't like the flavor of a lot of those beers.

Tim Fulton 18:04Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 18:05And but as I got, um, further along into what I was drinking, um, my brother, um, really pointed me in the direction of imports and 10 years ago, 12 years ago, everyone talked about imported beer. They didn't really talk about craft beer-

Tim Fulton 18:18Right

Chris Davison 18:18... from the States and craft beer did exist, but there were, the most adventurous beer typically, or the most acce- accessible beer because craft beer was so small at the time, was, um, imported stuff from Germany or Belgium.

Tim Fulton 18:29Right.

Chris Davison 18:30And so he kept telling me, "Drink this English beer, drink this Belgian beer. It's really, um, strong or it's really flavorful or it's really unique." And, um, so I started doing a lot of that. Then I started progressing into Samuel Adams and Great Lakes and some of the larger craft breweries and really found that I do like beer, um, but I like the flavor and I like the thought behind it. Um, um, I've told a lot of people that I really credit... So I, I hated the commercial, um, selling that the macro breweries did, but I really, um, latched onto the commercials that Samuel Adams would put out because-

Tim Fulton 19:02Yeah

Chris Davison 19:03... they talked about process and ingredients and quality.

Tim Fulton 19:05Well, and showcasing their, their actual brewers-

Chris Davison 19:08Yeah, exactly

Tim Fulton 19:08... and stuff like that-

Chris Davison 19:09So-

Tim Fulton 19:09... and it wasn't just chicks in bikinis.

Chris Davison 19:11Exactly. So that was, it was like more real and so that kinda drew me in and from there I just became the prototypical beer geek that, um, stopped drinking the stuff I liked and, and only wanted to drink something new every day.

Tim Fulton 19:23Okay.

Chris Davison 19:23And I used to review beer online and I probably reviewed, you know, a new beer every day for two or three years straight.

Tim Fulton 19:29You were the kind of beer geek who would try a different beer every day just because you wanted to see sort of like what was out there and what was-

Chris Davison 19:37Mm

Tim Fulton 19:37... what was different.

Chris Davison 19:38Yeah.

Tim Fulton 19:38How did you take the step to being a brewer?

Chris Davison 19:41Sure.

Tim Fulton 19:41Did you have a home kit or?

Chris Davison 19:42Yeah, I did. So I began, uh, home brewing. Um, I kinda taught myself 'cause at the time I was working a second shift job and the home brew club met in the evening.

Tim Fulton 19:51Okay.

Chris Davison 19:52And so I really couldn't access that, but I, that's one of those things I, um, at least looking back during those first formative years as a home brewer, I really would recommend to someone interested in getting into home brewing or that home brews and doesn't join a club is there are one or two local home brew clubs and they're a great resource of people that are super passionate, super knowledgeable-

Tim Fulton 20:10Okay

Chris Davison 20:10... that can really help lead you in the right direction, give you advice, you know, let you know like some of like their failures and why it happened and how to avoid it yourself.

Tim Fulton 20:19Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 20:19But I did a ton of research to try to set myself up for success and I home brewed for a couple years and I was brewing far more beer than I could drink.

Tim Fulton 20:26Okay.

Chris Davison 20:27But as, um, I feel like almost every home brewer will say at some point like, "Oh, like I should make a job out of this," or, "This would be a really fun career," and when it's a hobby, of course it, it sounds really fun to just do that every day all day long.

Tim Fulton 20:40Right.

Chris Davison 20:40Um, but you also hear a lot of professional brewers tell you it's not fun 100% of the time. It's very dirty. It's a lot of cleaning. It's whatever else, but that's its own thing, but yeah. So I thought I could, I, I really wanted to do it. I was super passionate about it and, um, I started just applying, um, and it took a couple years because I didn't have any formal brewing education. I didn't have any professional experience and, um, now on the other side of the table, I can tell you that at least once a month I get a job application through my email saying, "I'm a home brewer."

Tim Fulton 21:08Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 21:08"Like do you need help?" And anymore, that's just not enough for the most part-

Tim Fulton 21:13Okay

Chris Davison 21:13... um, to wi- wind up at a brewery.

Tim Fulton 21:15But you did translate your home brewing to-

Chris Davison 21:18I did

Tim Fulton 21:19... Columbus Brewing Company.

Chris Davison 21:20Yeah. So, uh, I just, I got in good with, uh, one of their sales reps-

Tim Fulton 21:25Okay

Chris Davison 21:25... uh, Tony Corder, and, uh, you know, I, I went to a lot of their events and, um, you know, a couple beer tastings with him just at, at people's houses and he, um-

Tim Fulton 21:34And your goal was to get a job.

Chris Davison 21:36My goal was to get a job-

Tim Fulton 21:36Okay

Chris Davison 21:36... not necessarily with them, but in the industry. And so he knew I was looking and, and that's really, um, to this day, um, all my brewers at Wolf's Ridge came up from, from below. So they were previously servers or bussers in our restaurant that-

Tim Fulton 21:52Oh, wow

Chris Davison 21:52... um, were super passionate and interested and they were able to demonstrate their hard work and knowledge to me and so I, I felt more comfortable teaching that person than trying to correct someone's bad habits or just blindly hire someone based on a resume.

Tim Fulton 22:04Right.

Chris Davison 22:05Um, as, but a larger brewery-

Tim Fulton 22:06And so a lot of the people that work for you were not brewers before at all-

Chris Davison 22:10That is correct, yes

Tim Fulton 22:10... but were passionate about it.

Chris Davison 22:12Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 22:12May not have even done home brewing. I think what that translates into is what was important to you was work ethic-

Chris Davison 22:19Ex- exactly

Tim Fulton 22:19... and that you didn't mind training someone because you knew that they were gonna work hard.

Chris Davison 22:24Yep.

Tim Fulton 22:25It sounds like there's a lot of ins and outs to it, but it doesn't sound like it can't be taught.

Chris Davison 22:30Exactly, yes. And that's, um, you know, earlier we, we were talking off air about, um, whether there was brewing schools or not-

Tim Fulton 22:38Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 22:39... and, and, you know, accre- accreditation in there or how that all worked out and there really isn't, but it, you know, it's more of like a trade and y- and an apprenticeship kind of situation and you can be taught, um, there. And then and also every brewer kind of wants things done their own way, so we're doing something, our things a little bit differently than Seven Son who's a little bit different than Columbus Brewing.

Tim Fulton 23:00Right.

Chris Davison 23:00Um, but it's all the same thing in a roundabout way. Um, but yeah, you can, you can be taught. Um, so for me it's definitely I, I want someone who's hardworking. If you're hardworking, then you're gonna pay attention and you're gonna, you're gonna do, uh, what needs to be done. Um, you could be the smartest person in the world, but if you're not- ... you know, know a lot about beer, but if you're not gonna work hard, then I don't want you in my brewery.

Tim Fulton 23:20Right. Talk about sort of, because there's no formal training, there's no licensing to this. There's no-

Chris Davison 23:25No

Tim Fulton 23:25... you don't have to go to the state and prove that you can brew beer. It's not-

Chris Davison 23:30No

Tim Fulton 23:30... like a-

Chris Davison 23:31Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 23:31... even, you know, the person that cuts your hair is licensed. Um, what are the legal aspects, though, that you have to keep in mind? You, you need to be aware of sort of the ABV of everything, right? Or is that just all taken care of on the back end?

Chris Davison 23:47Yeah, yeah. We, we need to track things from start to finish. Um, if you're not, um, recording data on the day you brew the beer until it's ready two weeks to 16 months later, depending on what you're doing-

Tim Fulton 23:59Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 23:59... if you're not tracking it that entire time, then at the end you don't really know what you have with, on your hands. At least at our scale.

Tim Fulton 24:04And what's that data? Is that just what's going into it?

Chris Davison 24:07Yeah, so everything from ingredient lists, um, I was talking with the owner today e- even about, like, lot numbers on, um, bags of malt because if-

Tim Fulton 24:14Okay

Chris Davison 24:14... there were a product recall, um, conceivably if there was, uh, I don't know, pesticide, uh, contaminating the malt, we'd need to know where that came from and what lot and, and trace it all the way back. And so the government wants to know that kind of stuff.

Tim Fulton 24:30Right.

Chris Davison 24:30Um, so-

Tim Fulton 24:30Unless, of course, you w- just wanna empty out every tank.

Chris Davison 24:33Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:33Every tank and barrel.

Chris Davison 24:34Or just get rid of everything.

Tim Fulton 24:35Right.

Chris Davison 24:35Yeah, so yeah, that would save, save, uh, your ass in a lot of ways. So yeah, you wanna know what you're putting into your beer and the quantities, and then you're, you're measuring, um, sugar content, which we refer to as gravity, and that's, that's how we determine alcohol. We determine, um, sugar content before fermentation and after fermentation.

Tim Fulton 24:52Oh, okay.

Chris Davison 24:52So during, during fermentation, yeast turns that sugar into alcohol.

Tim Fulton 24:55Okay.

Chris Davison 24:56Um, and so we don't have the equipment that can measure alcohol directly. That does exist, but it's expensive.

Tim Fulton 25:02Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 25:02So the roundabout way that we do it, the same way a home brewer does it, you measure sugar content before and after, and the difference, there's a formula you can plug it into that tells you how much alcohol you have.

Tim Fulton 25:12And you guys are... You have a fantastic kitchen for food, but you are first and foremost a brewery. And while the business model may get a significant portion of their income from the restaurant and, and the bar, you guys do distribute Wolf's Ridge Brewery.

Chris Davison 25:27Yes, we do.

Tim Fulton 25:27And your location is special. It is a, a liquor license specifically that surrounds the fact that you are a brewery.

Chris Davison 25:36Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 25:36I'm just curious about it because there are a lot of what I've thought of as McBreweries that have popped up-

Chris Davison 25:43Sure

Tim Fulton 25:44... of, like, chains that have beer brewed on site. That business model is just interesting to me. 'Cause-

Chris Davison 25:51Yeah

Tim Fulton 25:52... especially those guys, you guys are distributing the, your beer, but those places don't really seem to be distributing-

Chris Davison 25:58Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 25:58... the beer that they make outside of the restaurant.

Chris Davison 26:03Yeah, for the most part, that's correct. Um, I think a few do package beer. Um, I don't know if I have ever seen it in Ohio, but I think in some states you can buy Gordon Biersch-

Tim Fulton 26:13Okay

Chris Davison 26:13... beer, maybe BJ's beer. Um, but al- most, for the most part, you cannot. Um, and definitely in Ohio, I don't think you can. Like, you can find Hofbräuhaus beer, but I think it's brewed in Germany.

Tim Fulton 26:23Okay.

Chris Davison 26:23Um, but you can find that in six-packs around town.

Tim Fulton 26:25I didn't realize they were a McBrewery.

Chris Davison 26:28Um, yeah-

Tim Fulton 26:28I'm kind of mad now

Chris Davison 26:28... they actually are. Uh, and I didn't really realize it until-

Tim Fulton 26:31I know-

Chris Davison 26:32... probably until they came to Columbus, but there's one in Cincinnati. They just built one in Cleveland. There's one in Louisville.

Tim Fulton 26:36Right.

Chris Davison 26:36There's probably, like, 10 other ones in the States.

Tim Fulton 26:38Well, and it is... I am using a pejorative term.

Chris Davison 26:40Sure.

Tim Fulton 26:40Like, I am sort of making fun of them for-

Chris Davison 26:42Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:43... sort of being a chain that brews beer. What is your opinion of it?

Chris Davison 26:47Um, I, I kind of go both ways. So I think it's less authentic the more, uh, times you replicate that same thing.

Tim Fulton 26:56Okay.

Chris Davison 26:56Um, it, you know, and, and authenticity is, uh, really important to me in, in my craft and what I'm doing.

Tim Fulton 27:02Right.

Chris Davison 27:02But if, um, on the other side of things, if they're producing a good product, then, you know, I, I personally try to be accepting, uh, within reason for these, uh, um, you know, chain, uh, brew pubs.

Tim Fulton 27:16Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 27:16So, um, I'm someone who will happily, if the situation, um, arises, enjoy a BJ's, um, Piranha Pale Ale. I used to actually drink a lot of that beer as I used to live up near Polaris-

Tim Fulton 27:27Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 27:27... near there when it first opened. But, um, I will also tell you my heart sank when I realized that the Polaris location does not brew beer on site.

Tim Fulton 27:36Okay.

Chris Davison 27:36They've got some giant tanks, uh, behind some glass, but I think they're full of root beer or they're just serving tanks. They don't actually brew it there. It, it gets brought in from their La- uh, Las Vegas brewery.

Tim Fulton 27:46Hmm.

Chris Davison 27:47But the one, um, I can't remember where they opened the second location, Easton, I think it i- they are brewing there maybe.

Tim Fulton 27:52Okay.

Chris Davison 27:52So I kind of, uh, again, it's less authentic if you're calling yourself a brew pub or brew house or whatever name they choose to, to call it if it's not actually brewed there.

Tim Fulton 28:01Right.

Chris Davison 28:02Um, but if the, if the product is good, then I'll happily enjoy it. Um, but there's probably less room for creativity and freedom there.

Tim Fulton 28:08Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 28:09Um, it's not where I would send the craft beer nerd who wants something new and exciting.

Tim Fulton 28:13Right.

Chris Davison 28:13But on the other hand, um, you know, Gordon Biersch makes really high-quality German beer.

Tim Fulton 28:18Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 28:18I'm happy to drink it. Hofbräuhaus does the same thing, and I have a lot of fun when I go, but I don't go real often. So I k-

Tim Fulton 28:25Right

Chris Davison 28:25... I'm kind of, I kind of go back and forth. Like, when the Ale Trail first came out, uh, a couple years ago, and since then, more and more people are arguing, um, back and forth about do we include every brewery or allot every brewery in the Columbus area-

Tim Fulton 28:38Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 28:38... um, be part of that? And so there's, like, 38 in this year's Ale Trail book, and next year there'll probably be 50. And some people who wanna complete every one don't wanna see breweries on there that in their eyes aren't a real brewery.

Tim Fulton 28:50Right.

Chris Davison 28:50But technically they are. They are-

Tim Fulton 28:52But-

Chris Davison 28:52... brewing br- beer there.

Tim Fulton 28:53Right.

Chris Davison 28:54But they don't wanna have to stop at Hofbräuhaus and Rham and, um, Gordon Biersch and BJ's and, and maybe three different BJ's-

Tim Fulton 29:01Right

Chris Davison 29:01... you know, just because there are three. Um, so that kind of gets a l- little annoying. Um, and I can see that side of the, the coin.

Tim Fulton 29:08Right. Well, and I don't want you to sh- throw shade at all, but what then is the difference between you and somebody who's- In charge of brewing at some place like BJ's, is it simply that they're sort of taking orders, following a recipe, and that that's their job, nothing wrong with it? What is the difference?

Chris Davison 29:26Yeah, uh, largely that is the case. In most of these breweries there is a small amount of freedom to brew your own recipes.

Tim Fulton 29:33Okay.

Chris Davison 29:33Um, when the ex head brewer at Gordon Biersch, Keith Jackson, he now started his own brewery, it's called Combustion out in Pickerington.

Tim Fulton 29:40Okay.

Chris Davison 29:41His last year there, they were starting to give him considerable freedom because I think, to some extent, they found out their business model is kind of outdated now, being centered around German beers. There's, there, there's a lot of competition with German beer in Columbus now for them.

Tim Fulton 29:53Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 29:53So he was given a lot of freedom to brew his own beers. Um, there's a little bit of that at Ram. But, but yeah, for the most part, they're, they're brewing core beers, core brands, and they're, they're, they're adhering to a recipe, adhering to whatever arbitrary rules, uh, may be set up for that corporation because they want it to be exactly the same, um, all over the country.

Tim Fulton 30:12Well, they want it, they want it to be r- replicatable, basically.

Chris Davison 30:14Exactly.

Tim Fulton 30:15Right.

Chris Davison 30:15Um, so but sometimes they're... I, I find, um, some of it arbitrary. So Gordon Biersch famously, um, wanted to be hyper German.

Tim Fulton 30:24Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 30:24And so according to the Reinheitsgebot, which gets tossed around a lot, that's that German beer purity law-

Tim Fulton 30:29Okay

Chris Davison 30:29... um, that, you know, says beer can only be brewed with water, malt, and hops, and then later they added yeast, um-

Tim Fulton 30:35Okay

Chris Davison 30:36... when they originally created it, um, they didn't know yeast existed hundreds of years ago. But, um, so in order to be Reinheitsgebot proper, um, Gordon Biersch was not allowing their employees to dry hop beers. So the head brewer would brew an IPA, but he couldn't dry hop it, which is an integral part in creating a good aromatic IPA.

Tim Fulton 30:54Hmm.

Chris Davison 30:54Because that, and that's the process of adding hops to fermented beer on the cold side.

Tim Fulton 30:58Right.

Chris Davison 30:58Um, they were not allowed to pump pure oxygen into their beer, um, after they, uh, brewed it, and that's an integral part to creating healthy yeast.

Tim Fulton 31:06Huh.

Chris Davison 31:07Um, every brewery in the country does that, but they were pumping in, um, purified compressed air, and there's oxygen in that air, but it's not as ideal as pure oxygen.

Tim Fulton 31:15Right.

Chris Davison 31:16And slowly some of those rules started coming away, but that was one of the things he had to deal with, um, because of the corporate nature. Even though he knew better, he knew it would, would have produced better beer if you could, um, change some of those rules.

Tim Fulton 31:26But it's what he was hired to do, and he's not the boss.

Chris Davison 31:28Exactly. So yeah.

Tim Fulton 31:29And so just like any job, right?

Chris Davison 31:30Yeah. So yeah, the difference there is, um, at Wolf's Ridge, um, I've kind of been given complete freedom to do as I see fit to direct the program to produce the best possible beer-

Tim Fulton 31:40Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 31:40... to give it an identity. And-

Tim Fulton 31:42Well, and you're still expected to brew the beers that were sort of around and popular before, right?

Chris Davison 31:48Um, yes and no.

Tim Fulton 31:49You, you inherited some recipes.

Chris Davison 31:50I did inherit some recipes. Um, honestly, um, not a single recipe I brew today is the same as it was when I got hired.

Tim Fulton 31:57Okay.

Chris Davison 31:57Um, a lot of the beers that were around are gone or have changed names because the recipe changed so drastically.

Tim Fulton 32:03Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 32:03Um, other ones, like Clear Sky, our American cream ale, is one of our flagship beers, and it's t- spawned infused versions like Daybreak, the coffee version-

Tim Fulton 32:12Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 32:12... as our best-selling beer.

Tim Fulton 32:14Which is delicious.

Chris Davison 32:15Um, and that's just Clear Sky with vanilla and coffee added to it. But Clear Sky today is not remotely resembling what it was three years ago when I first got hired. And so that's one of the things that, um, I can't thank the owners, um, especially Alan Suter, the, um, head of the brewery at Wolf's Ridge-

Tim Fulton 32:33Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 32:33... um, enough credit, um, for my personal development there and allowing me to change the beer program. As, as long as what I'm doing is working and it makes sense and whatever, like, he, he gives me free control. So, um, we're continuing to brew Clear Sky, but I, I did what I felt was right for that recipe.

Tim Fulton 32:52Right.

Chris Davison 32:52And so a cream ale traditionally has a high percentage of corn in it, and originally it had zero corn. And so now it has 40% corn. There's a lot of corn in that beer now-

Tim Fulton 33:01Okay

Chris Davison 33:01... because that's what a cream ale should be. And so for me, I'm very traditional in how these classic styles are brewed, and a lot of times I'm buying very expensive imported grain from Germany or Belgium or England because it's the best quality grain or because it's what's traditional for a certain style. And so that's another thing where in a corporate environment you probably have a contract with a malt supplier-

Tim Fulton 33:23Right

Chris Davison 33:23... for a very cheap price, but then it may also not be the best quality malt.

Tim Fulton 33:27Right.

Chris Davison 33:28And you don't have a lot of freedom in, you know, you know, developing your recipes because you're all using the same grain in every recipe.

Tim Fulton 33:34Right.

Chris Davison 33:34So it's harder to change that flavor profile. So, um-

Tim Fulton 33:38It's n- it must be nice to have both the leeway in the process and the price, certainly.

Chris Davison 33:42Exactly. Yeah. So and I think, um, ultimately that's one of the reasons why the consumer has, um, really latched onto us because whether they realize it or not, it's creating this really unique identity that we have that a lot of breweries don't have, is I'm putting so much thought into some of these ingredients, um, regardless of price. And, and that is something we're always conscious of, of course.

Tim Fulton 34:05Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 34:05And, you know, we're, we are making money and trying to make sure-

Tim Fulton 34:07Yeah, 'cause it does translate to the end consumer.

Chris Davison 34:09For sure.

Tim Fulton 34:10Right.

Chris Davison 34:10But, um, you know, everything I do is, is thoughtful and with a purpose and, um, authentic, and it has my style attached to it.

Tim Fulton 34:19Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 34:19Um, I've talked to, um, other customers or brewers that will, like, read a label, and he'll be like, "You definitely didn't write that label, but I think you wrote this one." And I'm like, "How would you know that?" And he's like, "It just sounds like you would have said that." You know, and it has, like, my, my flair to it, but and then that translates across, like, everything that we do. And so-

Tim Fulton 34:37Right

Chris Davison 34:38... that's something that a corporate McBrewery, so to speak, uh-

Tim Fulton 34:42They just can't do

Chris Davison 34:43... definitely does not have. They cannot do that-

Tim Fulton 34:44Right

Chris Davison 34:44... uh, by nature.

Tim Fulton 34:45Talk about the other people in Columbus that are doing good work.

Chris Davison 34:48Okay. So, um, I mean, I came from Columbus Brewing Company, and they still are arguably the best or one of the best breweries in the city. Um, they, um, I'm, I'm really excited to see their, uh, portfolio of brands expand over the last year or two-

Tim Fulton 35:04Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 35:04... because the entire time I was there, and one of the reasons I was unhappy there was because I brewed IPAs six days a week-

Tim Fulton 35:11Right

Chris Davison 35:11... for like two years straight. Um, and that's their best-selling beer for good reason, but it just, um- You know, became more like a factory than a creative brewing job, and that's, you know, why I got into the industry. I loved the creative nature of brewing beer-

Tim Fulton 35:25Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 35:25... as a home brewer. At the time, you know, it was a lot of IPA, maybe a seasonal that was a flash in the pan, and Bodhi once a month. Um, and now, you know, you can find Bodhi regularly in bottles that people wanted for so long, and so, you know, they're bottling Creeper and they're- they've got a Scottish ale and a lager and a, and a pale ale or two, and all these other brands. Um, and so that's really exciting for me to watch, um, them finally get to do things that they used to talk about doing all the time, and they're all very, very good beers. Um, Seven Sun, um, is definitely again at the foreground. Um, they're doing, um, a lot of stuff with a similar mindset to what we're doing-

Tim Fulton 36:00Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 36:00... but they have their own style, and I think you can see and taste it in their beer and their branding. Um, it has, um, uh, Colin Vent's, um, uh, passion and, and different styling behind some of those recipes.

Tim Fulton 36:12Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 36:12Um, they do a lot of really quirky beers, but they do a lot of like, uh, really hop-heavy beers, IPAs and double IPAs that are very, very good. And they're one of the other breweries in town that's starting to dabble in the, um, quote-unquote, "sour world."

Tim Fulton 36:24Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 36:24And so far they've been doing mostly, um, Brett beers, which are the ones that don't have acidity but they are funky, um, in flavor and aroma, and they've been very good. Um, and they've done a kettle sour, which is, um, a different process of, um, quickly souring a beer, um, versus fermenting it in the tank. You're kind of doing it before you boil it, um, and we don't necessarily have to get into like the technical nature of it, but not to say it's not a real sour, but it's not at all what a Terre de Sauvage is or what-

Tim Fulton 36:54Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 36:54... we're doing at Wolf's Ridge is. It's a completely different process.

Tim Fulton 36:56Okay.

Chris Davison 36:56But they are building a facility for some of these more traditional barrel-aged sours. So, um, definitely Columbus and Seven Sun. Um, every time I go to Lineage, um, there's a, a couple beers that really impress me, uh, that I really dig, and they're doing a lot more very drinkable beers.

Tim Fulton 37:11Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 37:12And I do a lot of that myself. A la- um, a large part of our portfolio is smaller ABV beers.

Tim Fulton 37:17Yeah.

Chris Davison 37:18You know, we do bottle releases where people line up for flavored cream ale that's a 5% beer, and most breweries around the country can't get away with that. It needs to be a double IPA or an imperial stout or a barrel-aged something.

Tim Fulton 37:29Right.

Chris Davison 37:30Um, so that's really cool. And so I really dig a more drinkable, lower alcohol beer, and they do a lot of stuff like that that, um, I really get into. Um, they're another brewery that's doing, uh, kettle sours. Um, so, um, if you want acidity, um, uh, those beers definitely have that. A couple of different Berliner Weisses, which is a wheat sour that came from Germany, and usually they add fruit to theirs, um, which is, uh, unique and, uh, they're always adding different blends of fruit, which is pretty cool.

Tim Fulton 37:53It feels as though there's a lot of breweries popping up in Columbus. Is Columbus unique in that, or is this a nationwide trend?

Chris Davison 38:01It definitely is a nationwide trend. When I first started brewing professionally, there were-

Tim Fulton 38:06Tell, tell me Columbus is great at it, though.

Chris Davison 38:08Oh, I think so, and I think we're doing a better job than a lot of cities are.

Tim Fulton 38:12Okay.

Chris Davison 38:12Um, um, we've got a lot of, uh, room to grow in not only numbers, but also in just, I don't know, community education and, um, I don't know, I don't know the right way to describe it, but I just feel like our beer scene isn't as mature-

Tim Fulton 38:25Okay

Chris Davison 38:26... as one that would be from like Portland, Maine or Oregon. They're both huge beer scenes, um, with great mature beer scene, um, scenes there. Denver, um, San Diego, you know, the, the, and a few other places. So, uh, Chicago maybe. So the, um, there's some of these beer scenes that are super, uh, mature. Um, breweries have been there for a long time producing, um, boundary-pushing beer for a long time, and the consumer is well aware of that, and, um, I think across the board they're buying up all the different styles.

Tim Fulton 38:55Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 38:55And right now, Columbus is a very young beer scene. And so, um, we've got a lot of quantity and we're adding more, uh, it seems like every week or more.

Tim Fulton 39:02Yeah.

Chris Davison 39:02We're adding a new brewery or two, um, and that's really cool. But, um, most of these breweries are less than five years old, and honestly, out of 38 on the Ale Trail book, I'd say or guess that at least 50% are less than two years old.

Tim Fulton 39:16Okay.

Chris Davison 39:16So, um, you know, there's just a difference there in, um, in the caliber-

Tim Fulton 39:21Mm-hmm

Chris Davison 39:21... and experience of the brewers at a lot of these places, and also the consumer because 10 years ago-

Tim Fulton 39:27They're not as educated

Chris Davison 39:27... there were two breweries, you know?

Tim Fulton 39:28Right. Are there things that Columbus can do better, or is it simply that we just haven't matured enough?

Chris Davison 39:35I think it's, I think it's that, because there's not a lot you can do to change the mindset of the consumer. Right now, a lot of the consumers in Columbus really are gravitating towards really hoppy IPAs.

Tim Fulton 39:47Yeah.

Chris Davison 39:47And that is the, the fastest-selling style across the country and has been. It's the fastest-growing style still for like 10 years straight or something.

Tim Fulton 39:55Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 39:55But while I love a good IPA, there's a lack of subtlety and nuance and skill to some extent that goes into making a really hoppy beer-

Tim Fulton 40:04Okay

Chris Davison 40:05... versus like a really clean lager or a well-done, you know, one-month or, or one-year-old, um, barrel-aged stout or a two-year-old barrel-aged sour. A lot of the professional, um, lore and books will talk about how you can hide up anyth- you can hide any flaws with enough hops. You can't do that with a lager, and that's where they used to like praise like Budweiser because of the consistency of that super clean, neutral-tasting product, and it's hard-

Tim Fulton 40:30Right

Chris Davison 40:31... to do that. Um, and so there's a lot of breweries that are focusing on that, and it's a trendy thing and whatever else, but I feel like as the beer market matures, you're gonna see more and more people wanting session beers with, that are lower in alcohol.

Tim Fulton 40:43Right.

Chris Davison 40:43And, you know, they're gonna gravitate back towards those German lagers. You know, there's a lot of German-themed chain breweries for a reason, because those beers are really drinkable.

Tim Fulton 40:52Right.

Chris Davison 40:53Um, and they agree with a lot of people. So, um, I th- you know, that, that's almost the metamorphosis of the craft drinker as a whole. I th- like, and kind of how I- tracked my progress as a brewer or beer drinker.

Tim Fulton 41:05Mm-hmm.

Chris Davison 41:06Um, I got into big sweet stouts and IPAs, and then I got into barrel-aged stouts, and then I got into, um, sours. And then after all of that, like, my palate just felt tired of always drinking high alcohol or super strongly flavored-

Tim Fulton 41:22Right

Chris Davison 41:22... beers or whatever else. And then all of a sudden, all I wanted to drink was German lager.

Tim Fulton 41:26Right.

Chris Davison 41:27And I tell people all the time my favorite style is Helles lager. And my favorite beer to drink at Wolf's Ridge is a 5% German Helles lager. It's like a beer that is like the way beer, um, tastes or the way you imagine beer. If someone just says beer and you think of one thing, usually it's this golden, um, really drinkable beer.

Tim Fulton 41:43Right.

Chris Davison 41:44And that's kind of what Helles lager is. Um, but there's still a lot of flavor in how we're doing it versus, you know, some other breweries. So I think that, you know, that's just a maturing of my palate and my tastes.

Tim Fulton 41:53Right.

Chris Davison 41:53And some people may never come down from wanting barrel-aged and high ABV beers, but I think a lot of people, um-

Tim Fulton 41:59It's where the market will go.

Chris Davison 42:00Yeah, I think that's where the market will go over time.

Tim Fulton 42:02Yeah. Cool. Chris, thank you so much for your time.

Chris Davison 42:05You're welcome.

Tim Fulton 42:14Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite brewer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.