Cocktails in Columbus

Tim Fulton 0:06Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are grabbing a cocktail. I sat down with two of Columbus' best cocktail bartenders to talk about the bar scene in Columbus, what makes a good cocktail list, how to be a good patron, and the evolution of the Short North bar scene. You can get more information on what we discuss today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interview. On the occasion of the holiday season, sitting down here with Joe Peppercorn and Josh Rice. We are talking cocktails. Joe is the co-beverage director-

Joe Peppercorn 1:01Yes

Tim Fulton 1:01... at Little Rock Bar, also a bartender at Giuseppe's Ritrovo in Bexley. Josh Rice coming to us courtesy of Bodega in the Short North. Josh, how are you?

Josh Rice 1:12I'm great.

Tim Fulton 1:12Good.

Josh Rice 1:13I'm great.

Tim Fulton 1:13Good. Josh, how did you start to be a bartender?

Josh Rice 1:17I grew up in the service industry, uh, not necessarily in full service restaurants. I come from a service industry background. My father was a chef. I worked for him through junior high, high school, and college. I went to college, did some other things, and, uh, came back into full service restaurants about 15 years ago.

Tim Fulton 1:36Okay.

Josh Rice 1:37Uh, chains, independents, dive bars, clubs, everything.

Tim Fulton 1:41In Columbus primarily, or?

Josh Rice 1:43In Dayton primarily, but also in Detroit, and I've been in Columbus almost... Well, yeah, I've been in Columbus five years now.

Tim Fulton 1:50Mm-hmm.

Josh Rice 1:50At many different places in five years.

Tim Fulton 1:52Got it. Joe, you are known to people, I think, primarily at this point for the Beatles Marathon, which, uh, we can get a little plug in here.

Joe Peppercorn 2:00Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:00Coming up December 10th.

Joe Peppercorn 2:01Yes.

Tim Fulton 2:02At, uh, The Bluestone. Also, the front man for the sometimes revived band The Wiles.

Joe Peppercorn 2:09Yes.

Tim Fulton 2:10How did you get into bartending?

Joe Peppercorn 2:13I got into bartending because the main thing that appealed to me were the hours, because I've always had a difficult time sleeping since I was a little child. I remember being a kid and being up till 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning just about every night.

Tim Fulton 2:24Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 2:25And so I, despite my, uh, best intentions and efforts, I, you know, I'd always end up falling asleep at school and all. And having a normal job is just very, very difficult for me because I, my body just fall, shuts down at 2:00 to 3:00 AM every night.

Tim Fulton 2:38Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 2:38So the hours of bar- bartending, I was, "Oh, wow." As a j- you go in at, like, you know, 6:00 or 7:00, and then you leave at 2:00, and then, you know, I go to bed like I normally would. So that's-

Tim Fulton 2:47And then you have an excuse to sleep in-

Joe Peppercorn 2:49Yes. Yes

Tim Fulton 2:49... because you worked the night before.

Joe Peppercorn 2:50Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that w- appealed to me and it, and it fit perfectly with my lifestyle. And now... But then I also liked bars. I liked drinking and I liked being around people, and I liked the, and the music aspects, too. That also drew me in. A lot of the bars I worked originally were music clubs. You know, ha- having the connections through music and through the sleep schedule, it just, it was a no-brainer for me. Oh, this, this is a great business to be in.

Tim Fulton 3:15Can you give me a rundown of the places you've worked? You s- your first bartending shift was at the Treehouse, right?

Joe Peppercorn 3:20Anime's Treehouse, and then there was, uh, worked there through, you know, two other different managements. And then, uh, let's see, Cobo, another music club, and then Outland, worked there.

Tim Fulton 3:32Hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 3:32Basi Italia, Giuseppe's Ritrovo, Curio. But y- wide ranging, you know? Fi- I've done fine dining. I've done really, really terrible dive bars. You know, everything, you know.

Tim Fulton 3:44Right. And the, the one th- the reason why I brought you guys in together, both of you sort of take bartending a little bit more seriously, I think, than me, who bartends maybe, you know, once a month. I know how to pull a beer, and that's pretty much the extent of it. You guys take your time and sort of study it. And Joe, you as the co-assistant beverage director at Little Rock Bar, you have an obligation to sort of study these things and study drink making. I know that you've also been thrown into, you know, how do you make a frozen drink.

Joe Peppercorn 4:15Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 4:15And you know, which is no easy task. Why do you th- think that you take it a little bit more seriously? Is it just by virtue of this is what I'm doing, and so I'm going to do it well?

Joe Peppercorn 4:26Yeah. And I think also just w- once I reached a point where I said, "You know what? This is not just a little side gig. This... I, I really wanna work in this business." You know?

Tim Fulton 4:34Right.

Joe Peppercorn 4:35I think Josh is in a similar position-

Josh Rice 4:36Yeah. Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 4:36... that I am, where it's like, you know, a lot of bartenders, they do it to get through school or whatever. And then guys like Josh and I, w- I, I think we both just, "Oh, this is my, this is my job," you know?

Tim Fulton 4:45Right.

Joe Peppercorn 4:45So I th- I think you, in order to feel f- fulfillment and to not go insane, you have to treat it like, you know, like something that's important to you, and you have to take it seriously. And I mean, it doesn't mean you can't have fun with it, but I mean, it's, in order to feel like a human being, I think y- guys like us have to approach it very seriously, and, and try our best to do a really great job with it. I don't know if you agree with that.

Josh Rice 5:07Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Uh, take the time to learn as much as you can about the profession. And that's what it is, it's a profession.

Tim Fulton 5:13Right.

Josh Rice 5:14Uh, study a lot, read a lot. I am fortunate enough to have a photographic memory, so it's a little easier for me to remember things.

Tim Fulton 5:20Okay.

Josh Rice 5:20So when I explain somebody, something to somebody, I get the, "How, how do you know this?" Well, yes, I have a photographic memory, but I've also-

Joe Peppercorn 5:27Well, I saw it one time

Josh Rice 5:28... I've also read I don't know how many books on X subject and Y subject.

Tim Fulton 5:32Right. And you are, Josh, a member of the United States Bartenders Guild.

Josh Rice 5:36Correct.

Tim Fulton 5:37A organization that promotes education, competition, and camaraderie. You are not a cicerone.

Josh Rice 5:43I'm not a cicerone, no.

Tim Fulton 5:43A cicerone is akin to a sommelier for wine, but a cicerone is for beer.

Josh Rice 5:49Correct.

Tim Fulton 5:50You've studied it. You're also certified in, by the BarSmarts program.

Josh Rice 5:54BarSmarts program, yeah. Spirits program.

Tim Fulton 5:56Can, can you tell us what BarSmarts is?

Josh Rice 5:58Uh, BarSmarts is an organization based out of New York. Their flagship product is called Bar5 Day. It's an unofficial post-graduate course for bartenders that takes a week to complete, costs a lot of money. You taste a ridiculous amount of spirits and learn as much as possible about service and spirits and cocktails. They have two other programs. One is an online program. Where they, uh, show some videos and do some instruction, and you take a little quiz. And then the other one is a live program where you spend an entire day with these, these five amazing gentlemen who are kind of luminaries in the spirits, cocktails, and wine world who'd have taken it upon themselves to educate as many people as possible. Uh, and that was, that was an awesome day. It was in Cleveland about three years ago.

Tim Fulton 6:40Okay.

Josh Rice 6:41Uh, spent a day with them tasting, learning, getting quizzed. Uh, practical exams too, like I had to make cocktails for people in front of people.

Tim Fulton 6:48And this is not like those programs that you would see at like a strip mall or advertised on the radio like-

Josh Rice 6:54Correct

Tim Fulton 6:55... "Hey, you can be a bartender too."

Josh Rice 6:57Yeah. This, this is not ABC Bartending School-

Tim Fulton 6:59Right

Josh Rice 7:00... uh, where you're learning how to make a, a daiquiri with, with neon green sour mix and learning how to use a blender. Um, things, things like that, that, that silly commercials you see on TV or advertisements.

Tim Fulton 7:11Do those things, do those still exist?

Josh Rice 7:12Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, big time. Big time.

Joe Peppercorn 7:14You cannot properly make a buttery nipple without one of those courses. There is... It is an impossibility.

Tim Fulton 7:22How do you... I'm sorry. Joe, how do you make a buttery nipple?

Joe Peppercorn 7:25I, I, I've never taken one of those courses. I don't know.

Tim Fulton 7:28Um, talk about sort of what you guys see... You guys work together at Curio.

Josh Rice 7:35Correct.

Tim Fulton 7:35I wanna talk about sort of where you see bar culture right now in that, let's say 10 years ago, it was rare to find a bar that had 30 craft beers on tap. At this point, it's sort of expected that even a neighborhood bar will have at least five curated beers-

Josh Rice 7:55Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 7:55... just depending on what their, you know, uh, what their tap setup is. What other things are you seeing in sort of bar culture?

Josh Rice 8:02Uh, spirits. Spirits and cocktails. Uh, this is something that we were talking about last weekend in some downtime at Bodega. Had a gentleman with his girlfriend who walked in 7:00 on a Friday night, uh, the mid-swing of happy hour, walked right up to the bar, ordered a vodka soda and a Negroni, and that's just weird to me.

Tim Fulton 8:19Okay.

Josh Rice 8:20Uh, just not even questioning, "Hey, can you make a Negroni? Do you have the ingredients for it?" But just ordering one.

Tim Fulton 8:25And so what's, what's in a Negroni?

Josh Rice 8:27A Negroni is an equal parts cocktail, classic cocktail, stirred cocktail, equal parts gin, sweet vermouth, and Campari.

Tim Fulton 8:33Okay.

Josh Rice 8:33Served on the rocks usually with a, a nice orange slice. Uh-

Joe Peppercorn 8:36So something that most bars should... a fully stocked bar should have.

Josh Rice 8:40Should have, but is not necessarily going to... well, not necessarily going to have Campari-

Joe Peppercorn 8:46Mm-hmm

Josh Rice 8:46... or, or have sweet vermouth that actually tastes like sweet vermouth.

Joe Peppercorn 8:50Yeah. They, that drink will stink with the teriyaki sauce vermouth.

Josh Rice 8:53Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 8:53I mean-

Josh Rice 8:53Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 8:53... you gotta have some- something decent-

Tim Fulton 8:56Okay

Joe Peppercorn 8:56... to make a... I had one of those drink... That's my favorite drink. I had-

Josh Rice 8:58It is. It is.

Joe Peppercorn 8:58I had one last night-

Josh Rice 8:59Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 8:59... actually-

Tim Fulton 9:00Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 9:00... after turkey.

Tim Fulton 9:02Joe, what are you seeing?

Joe Peppercorn 9:03I've seen a, a lot of the things that Josh has seen. Um, you know, at Giuseppe's Retrova, where I work, it's kinda the same thing where people just walk up and they, they don't say, "Oh, can you, can you make a daiquiri," or, "Can you make an old fashioned?" or, "Can you make any of these things?" I mean, it's just, just assumed that in a nice restaurant with a fully stocked bar, you just, "Oh, okay, I can order whatever I want and this, and this guy can make it."

Tim Fulton 9:22Right.

Joe Peppercorn 9:22And I like that aspect a lot, of the... That, that I as a patron too, I can go to a, a re- nice restaurant, and if I'm in the mood for it, get a Negroni or, or, and get it properly made with some good ingredients.

Tim Fulton 9:32Do you think that that's mainly because you guys sort of circulate within the Center City and so... Like, am I gonna be able to go to a bar on Bethel Road and order a Negroni?

Joe Peppercorn 9:41You're starting to see that. It's-

Josh Rice 9:42Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 9:42It's kinda shocking.

Tim Fulton 9:43Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 9:43You know, where you're going out in Hi- you're in Hillyard, you're in Powell, wherever, and you go up and, and usually, you know, if, if you go to a bar, there, there's signs that indicate to you, oh, you can get a Negroni here. If you see the Campari prominently displayed, if you see, um, that they carry good vermouth, if you see some I- Italian Amaro there, you know, which is a herbal digestif that co- we love to use in cocktails, and usually a, a bottle of that indicates that this is a bar program that takes things kinda seriously. You know, you... And you don't wanna be a jerk at the same time and go to a, you know, a, a shot and beer bar, "Uh, why can't you make me a Negroni?" You know, like- Um, but you're starting to see those shot and beer bars be able to do that too. Um, and a- I th- I think that's one of the more-

Tim Fulton 10:24And what do you mean by shot and beer bars? Is it just like, you know, the kinda place that you'd see on campus or...

Joe Peppercorn 10:29Or, or grownup places even. Even like Little Rock I would consider a shot and beer bar.

Tim Fulton 10:33Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 10:33But we, but we can make a nice drink there, you know?

Tim Fulton 10:35Right.

Joe Peppercorn 10:35You, you s- you s-

Josh Rice 10:36Neighborhood bars.

Joe Peppercorn 10:37Right.

Josh Rice 10:37Neighborhood bars. The, the place where grumpy old men hang out for happy hour and then all the service industry goes at the end of the night.

Joe Peppercorn 10:42Right.

Tim Fulton 10:43Say that someone is sort of, you know, mid-20s, sort of uneducated about even what they like and would like to discover more about what they like, what recommendations do you have for them? You know, do I like a Negroni or do I like an old fashioned?

Joe Peppercorn 10:58You do like a Negroni. The question is just, you know-

Tim Fulton 11:01Have you had one yet?

Joe Peppercorn 11:02... do you realize that, you know?

Tim Fulton 11:03Okay.

Josh Rice 11:05Uh, well, yeah, you do like it. It's, it's, uh, it's kinda the way that people get introduced to any, any beverage, any foodstuff. Uh, you start with something usually a little sweeter, a little more friendly, and, uh, you go to a place where you know that they, they can make it well.

Tim Fulton 11:18Mm-hmm.

Josh Rice 11:19Uh, so let's see. For, for cocktails, yeah, a place like a, an, a nicer style neighborhood bar like Little Rock, uh, like Bodega, where you can get even something silly, like you can get a pr- we make a, a proper Long Island at Bodega with fresh juice.

Tim Fulton 11:33Okay.

Josh Rice 11:34It, it sounds silly, but we do, and it's one of those cocktails that's just gotten diluted and changed so much over the years. I'm not saying it's a good cocktail, I'm just saying that you can make it better.

Tim Fulton 11:43Right.

Josh Rice 11:43So a place where, like that, where you know that they can make something better.

Tim Fulton 11:46Well, in my mind, Long Island is always, like, the thing that if somebody orders, that's the red flag of s- that person maybe doesn't know what they like and just wants a whole bunch of liquor.

Josh Rice 11:56Correct. Possibly.

Tim Fulton 11:57Okay.

Josh Rice 11:57Possibly. Not necessarily, but possibly. Uh, that, that has kinda been debunked by our friend Jeff Morgenthaler out in Portland, Oregon-

Tim Fulton 12:04Okay

Josh Rice 12:04... who put a craft Long Island on his menu at one of his craft cocktail bars, uh, because he wanted to do kind of throwback, kitschy cocktails, and he said, "If I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it as well as I can-

Tim Fulton 12:16Right

Josh Rice 12:16... and use the best ingredients possible," which I think is kinda cool.

Tim Fulton 12:19Right. You know, is there any argument for going on Amazon or going to a bookstore and just getting a good cocktail cookbook, basically?

Josh Rice 12:28Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Tim Fulton 12:29And sort of, you know, sampling that, getting s- small bottles of liquor.

Joe Peppercorn 12:34Oh, yeah. I mean, the, the, the books are, are, are necessary. I mean, e- even, you know, even having exper- I mean, Josh is more experienced than me, but I know he d- he constantly is r- reading the, you know, new books that come out and everything. I mean, that's how you, that's really how you can keep up with everything. I mean, 'cause you can find stuff online, but a lot of these books are the, I mean, the best information filtered for you, you know, um, 'cause there's just so mu- so many resources online, and the, there's some that are great, but a lot of them are not, and, and I think a book would be the, the best b- the Death & Company book would be my re-

Tim Fulton 13:04Yeah. Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 13:05... recommendation for a- ... beginner or novice, anything. I mean, it, that book lays out everything for everyone. If you're a beginner, you can take a lot from that book, and if you're w- advanced, you can take a lot from that book. There's, there's a, there's a handful of them. That one sta- stands out to me. I don't, I don't know-

Josh Rice 13:21Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 13:21... Josh, what you-

Josh Rice 13:21Oh, absolutely. And to be clear, Death & Company is an awesome cocktail bar on the Lower East Side in New York City. It's been there a little over 10 years.

Tim Fulton 13:27Okay.

Josh Rice 13:27Uh, the people that own it actually live in LA. They are restaurateurs and bar creators. They're both bartenders, uh, they-

Tim Fulton 13:34But it is a craft cocktail bar-

Josh Rice 13:35It is a craft cocktail bar

Tim Fulton 13:37... like Curio-

Josh Rice 13:38Like Curio

Tim Fulton 13:38... is, is the best example-

Josh Rice 13:39Yeah

Tim Fulton 13:39... in Columbus, I think.

Josh Rice 13:40It's, it's the speakeasy stylish. Curio is not a speakeasy because it has windows, uh, but Death & Company doesn't have windows. It's kind of that, that neo-speakeasy that started at the turn of the, the, the 21st century in New York.

Tim Fulton 13:53Okay.

Josh Rice 13:53With PDT and, and Death & Company were two of the, two of the forefronts.

Tim Fulton 13:56Okay. There are standards for, like, this is what's in a Long Island.

Josh Rice 14:01Correct.

Tim Fulton 14:01This is what's in a-

Josh Rice 14:02Correct

Tim Fulton 14:02... Old Fashioned.

Josh Rice 14:03Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 14:04What, what association defines that?

Josh Rice 14:06Uh, that was the International Bartenders Association.

Tim Fulton 14:08Okay.

Josh Rice 14:08That's the association that the USBG is connected with internationally.

Tim Fulton 14:12Okay.

Josh Rice 14:12And they promote the same things, but they also, the, the example that I gave earlier was whenever you, you Google a cocktail and Wikipedia comes up, it has the official IBA recipe, which isn't necessarily a recipe that I'm gonna use-

Tim Fulton 14:24Okay

Josh Rice 14:24... but it's the one that's the worldwide standard decided on by this association of bartenders.

Tim Fulton 14:29Okay. So what I was gonna ask then is if it's defined to that point, if it's defined of, like, this many ounces of this, this many ounces of that, what's the difference between going to a bar where somebody's gonna try and follow that to the letter and going to a place where you guys may work and you're going to sort of perfect it?

Josh Rice 14:50I would say it cr-

Tim Fulton 14:51Is it just, like, the touch? Is it like an artist, basically?

Josh Rice 14:54Yeah, in a, to a certain extent. It, it's creativity and, and kind of riffing on somebody else's cocktail.

Tim Fulton 14:59Okay.

Josh Rice 15:00Uh, there, there are a finite number of ways to put booze and juice and sugar together to make a drink.

Tim Fulton 15:05Okay.

Josh Rice 15:06Uh, these styles have been defined for many, many, many years. It's just riffing on that using different ingredients and different techniques and changing it in certain ways, uh, which, which is easier to do at some places than others. We try and do it at Bodega. Uh, we have some very nice, very simple cocktails. Uh, we have a couple of complicated ones, but it's also a really busy bar-

Tim Fulton 15:26Mm-hmm

Josh Rice 15:26... uh, because we're so close to campus. We're in the Short North. Uh, Curio does a much better job with that. Crystal Lobby at Inn does a better job with that. They, they have a small, more intimate space. Gi- uh, Giuseppe's does an awesome job with that. Their cocktail list is always fantastic and super creative. Uh, Blind Lady Tavern, Sidebar, Denmark, all of the big cocktail houses in the city always have really cool riffs on standards and classics. They're very creative.

Tim Fulton 15:49What's the difference between an easy cocktail and a complicated one?

Josh Rice 15:53Number of ingredients.

Tim Fulton 15:54Okay.

Josh Rice 15:54Um, scarcity of the ingredients, if you're using some plant that's only available for two weeks of the year.

Tim Fulton 16:00Okay.

Josh Rice 16:01Uh, expensive ingredients, uh, and also some of the techniques. Uh, basic, basic sours are three ingredients, sweetness, uh, acid, and base spirit, a daiquiri. Uh, negronis are three ingredients just stirred up. Manhattans are three ingredients stirred up. Old Fashioneds are three or four ingredients. Uh, but you start getting into things... I think the, the penultimate one is the, the Ramos Gin Fizz, the breakfast hangover cocktail from New Orleans.

Tim Fulton 16:24Okay.

Josh Rice 16:25An egg white gin sour with heavy cream and orange blossom water and three, 13 other ingredients that takes technically 12 minutes to shake.

Tim Fulton 16:32Okay.

Josh Rice 16:33Don't order one of those. They're good.

Tim Fulton 16:34Okay.

Josh Rice 16:35But-

Tim Fulton 16:35Well, and that brings us to somebody who has sort of, you know, entertains their friends at home with making cocktails and says, "Hey, I, maybe I want to be a, you know, a cocktail bartender." What's the... Is there a path to go down? Is it joining an organization? Is it simply continuing to work at home and trying to, like, get their foot in the door at a place?

Joe Peppercorn 16:56Yeah. G- I mean, getting your foot in the door is the main... Yeah, I think anyone can really learn to make these cocktails. It's not like... You know, I think there's this misconception that guys like Josh and I have this, like, in- talent that, oh my good... You know? I think Josh actually, d- like he said, he has, like, a photographic memory. That really helps. He has, he, he, like, wh- working with him, it was shocking, like, you know, someone could l- list some obscure drink, and he'd be like, "Oh yeah, you know, there's rum and, and Fernet and li- " And it's like, "What?"

Tim Fulton 17:24You haven't made that in six years.

Joe Peppercorn 17:26Yeah, he'd be like, "Oh, yeah, yeah." Like, he know, he seriously knows every drink. You, you don't need to be at that point, but I th- I think learning the basics of working in a bar is, is essential, and I think honestly starting in m- like, a neighborhood bar m- is probably a good option for someone who's young and wants to start bartending, because a lot, I mean-

Tim Fulton 17:44Well, and they're gonna learn if they truly wanna do it.

Joe Peppercorn 17:46Yeah.

Josh Rice 17:46Yes. Yes.

Joe Peppercorn 17:46And, and a lot of it is just dealing with, with, uh, learning how to deal with people, learning how to communicate with them, and learning how to, you know, these basic things of, of, you know, how to open and close a bar, how to, you know, basic service things that, um-

Tim Fulton 18:00How to deal with someone when they're drunk.

Joe Peppercorn 18:02Yeah.

Josh Rice 18:02Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 18:03Like, yeah, and-

Tim Fulton 18:03How to properly cut someone off.

Joe Peppercorn 18:04And I, if, if I were to... I, I mean, the one thing, I, there are some bartenders that started in the cocktail world, and I, I can pick them out very easily because they just, there's this, these basic skills that they, they kinda skip over, and they just go, they just go right into, like, making cocktails and stuff. And, and I mean, that's a big part of it, and it's exciting, but I know for a lot of us in our generation who are doing the cocktail thing, we all started at, you know, pouring shots and be- and po- ... pulling beers. Like that's-

Tim Fulton 18:31Right. Well, 'cause that cocktail culture didn't exist 10 years ago.

Joe Peppercorn 18:34Right.

Josh Rice 18:34Correct.

Joe Peppercorn 18:35But I think that's a necessary skill to have if you wanna be a, a good bartender. I mean, and there are people that, that are, prove exceptions to that rule, but I like the bartenders that, you know, have worked in a variety of places.

Tim Fulton 18:45And I'm not asking about the patrons here. I'm more asking about bar culture and bartenders. What are the sort of maybe the negative things that are happening in the, the Columbus bar scene? What are you annoyed by when you see it?

Joe Peppercorn 18:58What, what, in Columbus, like w- as a patron, what am I annoyed by?

Tim Fulton 19:01Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 19:01Or, like as a-

Tim Fulton 19:02Yeah, as a, as a patron who knows about the industry.

Joe Peppercorn 19:05For me, it's just the, like a, a lack of fun. I always get very frustrated when, like some, some, you know, people are doing things and they're not having fun doing it or not-

Tim Fulton 19:13Okay

Joe Peppercorn 19:13... making it a fun experience, you know? And I don't see a lot of that, honestly. Like, you know, you go to-

Tim Fulton 19:16And it's not that it's too serious, it's literally that they're like, "Ugh."

Joe Peppercorn 19:20Yeah. You know, I mean it, but yeah, I don't-

Tim Fulton 19:21Just don't wanna be there.

Joe Peppercorn 19:22Yeah. I, I don't see a lot of that, honestly, thankfully-

Tim Fulton 19:24No, I, I don't either

Joe Peppercorn 19:24... in Columbus. Like, you go to Denmark, they got a good sense of humor. You go to, you go to Curio, any of these spots, like you go there and like people get it. Like I'm not a, I'm not a magician, you know, I'm just making a cocktail. You know, it's, there's a certain amount of humility that I, I like that I, thankfully, in, in Columbus I think a lot of the cocktail bartenders have.

Tim Fulton 19:40Mm.

Joe Peppercorn 19:40And there's a camaraderie. They, they, everyone knows each other.

Tim Fulton 19:43Right.

Joe Peppercorn 19:43There's these events, everyone gets together, and 95% of the time it's very, everyone's working together, helping each other find jobs if they need to.

Tim Fulton 19:51Mm-hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 19:51And I don't know, there's not a whole lot of negative aspects I, I could point out.

Tim Fulton 19:55Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 19:55But I don't know if, Josh, you feel it or no.

Josh Rice 19:57I think the only thing I would have to say about that is when a new establishment opens, whether it's a chain or an independently owned place, and they claim to have a cocktail program or a nice cocktail list-

Tim Fulton 20:07Mm-hmm

Josh Rice 20:07... or they claim to have a nice craft beer list, or even a nice wine list, and you go in and look at it, and it's-

Tim Fulton 20:12And it's not

Josh Rice 20:13... it's, it's Blue Moon and Shock Top. Uh, you know?

Tim Fulton 20:17Right.

Josh Rice 20:18Or, or, or it's just, "Hey, we have Bell's Two Hearted. We have the best craft beer list possible." Well, that's a great beer, but every place has that beer.

Tim Fulton 20:25Right.

Josh Rice 20:25Uh, what are you doing? Do you have interesting IPAs? Do you have interesting stouts? Are you trying to change your beer seasonally? Same thing with the cocktails. Do you have some ingredients to make some good things? I'm not saying you have to have super creative drinks on your list.

Tim Fulton 20:37Right.

Josh Rice 20:37But can you make a solid Negroni, Manhattan, Old Fashioned, Daiquiri? Just really, really basic stuff. Do you have the tool set in place? You don't need to squeeze juice fresh every day.

Tim Fulton 20:46Right.

Josh Rice 20:46And you don't need to go crazy about it, but just have a few simple tools and have your people trained to a point where they can make that.

Tim Fulton 20:52So it's the false claim, basically.

Josh Rice 20:54Yes, yes.

Tim Fulton 20:55That, that like everybody is following that, like in order to be a bar, you've gotta have a good selection of craft beers, you've gotta have a cocktail list-

Josh Rice 21:03Yeah

Tim Fulton 21:03... and you have to have wine available. The problem is, is that people have those things, but they're not necessarily doing them well.

Josh Rice 21:10Correct.

Tim Fulton 21:10Okay.

Josh Rice 21:11Yeah. I, I see new establishments that are opening that still have mainly domestic macro brews or their offshoots on draft with maybe one or two craft beers, and then their cocktail list consists of some sort of Moscow mule variant and then an apple martini and a cosmopolitan.

Tim Fulton 21:26Is the market sort of correcting for that? I mean, I have in my head the names of a couple of bars that have opened in the last year or so. Seems to me as though they're not doing very well.

Josh Rice 21:37Correct. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 21:38So the market does correct for it.

Josh Rice 21:39The market does correct, and I think a lot of that is driven by what, what Joe mentioned earlier, these, these bars in other larger cities. Uh, Columbus is a very business traveler type of town.

Tim Fulton 21:49Okay.

Josh Rice 21:49And people who live here travel extensively for both business and pleasure.

Tim Fulton 21:53Right.

Josh Rice 21:53And they go to, it could be something as simple as Chicago, Indianapolis, Atlanta, first tier, second tier, third tier cities, and they sit down at a bar and they see they've got this wonderful craft beer list of all these local beers that are awesome, and tons of flavor, and really unique ingredients, this great wine list that's priced really, really well, and it's not just all California wines, it's wines from all over the country. This, this great craft cocktail list that's really simple or really complicated. Or, "Hey, I had an awesome Manhattan here. Can you make me a Manhattan? Do you know what that is?" That's, that's a question that we've started... Nobody asks that anymore.

Tim Fulton 22:25Right.

Josh Rice 22:26Like, of course I can make a Manhattan.

Tim Fulton 22:27It's, it's assumed that you can do that.

Josh Rice 22:28Yeah.

Tim Fulton 22:29Right. And we have talked about some of the bars that are doing that well. Those will be, uh, linked in the show notes. Talk about how to be a good bar patron. I know a lot of t- you know, people will come in, they'll look at the menu, they'll order something, but there are also people that walk up and say, "Make me something." And it's appropriate to do that in some places. Like Curio, I think, does a great job-

Josh Rice 22:50Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 22:50... of you can look at their extensive menu or you can say, "Hey, I like whiskey."

Josh Rice 22:55Yeah.

Tim Fulton 22:55"I like whiskey and I like things that are sweet. Make me something." This is your opportunity to sort of bitch about negative experiences that you've had with bar patrons.

Josh Rice 23:04I don't like bitch, I like educate.

Tim Fulton 23:05Okay.

Josh Rice 23:05Just educate people.

Tim Fulton 23:06Let's educate people.

Josh Rice 23:07Just, just be smart. Know what you want when you're going in. But yeah, Joe, go ahead.

Joe Peppercorn 23:10Yeah. There, I mean, th- there's a whole grocery list of beha- like, uh, there's, there's, uh, basic etiquette.

Tim Fulton 23:16Right.

Joe Peppercorn 23:17And, you know, unfortunately-

Tim Fulton 23:19Throwing money at you is probably not a nice thing to do.

Joe Peppercorn 23:22No, it's not a nice thing to do.

Tim Fulton 23:23What's a good way to get your, uh, attention?

Joe Peppercorn 23:27Just, just stand there. I see you. You don't, you don't even need to wave.

Tim Fulton 23:30Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 23:30You don't need to, you don't need to shake your bottle. You don't need to do any of that. You stand there and it's my job to see you, and if you see that I am busy, then- Just wait. Just, just be patient, you know? I, some of these people go to the bar, I don't know what they do when they go to a Starbucks and like- ... you can't, you c- you have to wait in line. And you can't like run around to the s- to the end of, "Hey, hey, I'm, hey, can I get a coffee?" Like, I mean, what are these s- I, I can't figure out what some of these people do when they go there and there's like a line. So you see that there's 10 people waiting. I, um, you know, I'm trying my best to count you guys, so like, "All right, you're next, you're next, you're next." But, you know, people just, they're, they, they have bad etiquette in bars. It, it brings out, it, the, the, there is-

Tim Fulton 24:13Well, it is that little bit of alcohol in them.

Joe Peppercorn 24:15Right. It, it, it-

Josh Rice 24:16There's the alcohol

Joe Peppercorn 24:17... they, they just, they d- they have bad etiquette and it comes out in spades when they, when they are, are getting boozed up a little bit. So you don't need to, you don't need to m- you know, be a jackass when you come up and try to get our attention. We see you. When we come, when we come over to you, if you h- have questions, like you know, present, you know, if you see us really busy, just order a, a two-hearted or something easy that you know you like. But if we're not busy, like y- you know, don't be a doofus with your questions. Like, ask smart questions. "Oh, this drink, what is it like?" Okay, I could say, "Oh, it's like a Manhattan." "Oh, cool. I like Manhattans." Or you say, "What's a Manhattan?" "It's whiskey, vermouth, and bitters." "Oh, I typically like strong drinks. Would I like that?" "Yeah, you might like that if you like whiskey-"

Josh Rice 24:56Mm

Joe Peppercorn 24:56... and strong." You know, there, there, there's, there's a series of questions you can, you, you can be intelligent about. But I think al- also, like you know, people don't necessarily give us the respect we deserve because they kind of look down o- on, on us as, as not professionals. Or, or like, well, this is... You know, you hear it all the time, "What's your real job?" You know?

Tim Fulton 25:12Right.

Joe Peppercorn 25:13So I, I think that a lot of times there's a lack of respect for the bartender. And but then, you, you see the opposite, too, where people are very, very respectful and they treat you like you're like s- royalty, and I, I enjoy that thoroughly. But, but, um, you know, once, once you get, once you figure out what you want, if you wanna try something and we let you try it, cool. Make your decision then. And, and then when y- we bring you your drink, say thank you. And then pay cash or open one tab for the night.

Tim Fulton 25:39Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 25:39And don't d- you know? And then when you, uh, go out over to your friends, don't be a loud idiot. Like, you know, st- be, when you bump into someone, don't go pfft. Like, like, you know?

Tim Fulton 25:53Say, "Excuse me."

Joe Peppercorn 25:54Yeah, I mean, just they need to s- start teaching these kids like the, this basic-

Tim Fulton 25:59It's not just kids

Joe Peppercorn 26:00... this basic etiquette.

Tim Fulton 26:01It's not just kids.

Joe Peppercorn 26:01It's not just kids. It's b- it's, yeah.

Josh Rice 26:03It, it's etiquette and politeness.

Joe Peppercorn 26:05Politeness. There's a basic-

Josh Rice 26:06There's basic etiquette-

Joe Peppercorn 26:07... civility in politeness

Josh Rice 26:07... and basic civility, basic politeness

Joe Peppercorn 26:09... that y- you should have everywhere, and espe- I feel like especially-

Josh Rice 26:12Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 26:12... in the bar, you know, where, you know, y- it's a magical place where you get, you get to be whatever you want to be. And w- we are, we are-

Josh Rice 26:18You have these, these awesome people bringing you things that taste good and make you feel happy.

Tim Fulton 26:22Right.

Joe Peppercorn 26:22We are going to make your dreams come true-

Josh Rice 26:24Yes

Joe Peppercorn 26:25... if you could just stop being such an asshole.

Tim Fulton 26:30Please tell me you have horror stories to share.

Joe Peppercorn 26:33Oh, yeah.

Josh Rice 26:35Well, let me, before you do that, let me just interject real quick and just-

Tim Fulton 26:37Please

Josh Rice 26:37... just talk about the, I think the biggest thing in that question is eye contact-

Tim Fulton 26:42Okay

Josh Rice 26:42... and just politeness.

Tim Fulton 26:43Okay.

Josh Rice 26:43If a bartender makes eye contact with you-

Tim Fulton 26:46They know

Josh Rice 26:46... 'cause he knows that you are looking at him or her, that usually denotes that you want or need something. So I will come over to you. And if you don't need anything, I'm gonna be annoyed because I could've helped three other people-

Tim Fulton 26:57Right

Josh Rice 26:57... at the other end of the bar. At the same note, if you are sitting-

Tim Fulton 27:00But what if they just think you're handsome?

Josh Rice 27:02That never happens to me. Uh, I'm old and fat and bald.

Tim Fulton 27:05That's not true.

Josh Rice 27:06Uh, on the same note-

Tim Fulton 27:07I'm putting your picture in the show notes- ... for this episode.

Josh Rice 27:10If you are sitting or standing at the bar and the bartender does not make eye contact with you because they are busy, please do not start shouting out your order. I have three other things in my head.

Tim Fulton 27:19Just because you're close by-

Josh Rice 27:20Yes

Tim Fulton 27:21... doesn't mean that you are the one being served right now.

Josh Rice 27:23If I happen to make eye contact with you, I will say, "I will be right with you," or, "Here's a menu. I will be right back." Please do not start shouting your order at me, 'cause I have enough things that I'm doing at the moment. I will get to you, I promise. I will make all your dreams come true. Okay, horror stories.

Tim Fulton 27:37All right. Joe.

Joe Peppercorn 27:38Go. Okay. So my favorite bartender in town who, uh, gave me my first job, and, um, I still work for, he, he was working one night and a guy was doing the bottle shaking thing, and he would not stop it. And he said, my buddy said to the guy, "You know, I see you. You don't need to shake the bottle at me." Guy comes up for the next beer, s- shakes the bottle.

Tim Fulton 28:00And this isn't like-

Joe Peppercorn 28:02And it-

Tim Fulton 28:02This is literally like, "Hey, do you see that this is empty?"

Joe Peppercorn 28:05Yeah. My bu- and my buddy said, "Shake that bottle at me one time and it's be- gonna get shoved up your ass." And it, it was a glorious time 10 years ago when you didn't have Yelp and you-

Tim Fulton 28:20Yeah. Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 28:20... could do stuff like that. I do miss those da- like, as much as I like politeness and civility, sometimes people just need to be told that they're going to get a bottle shoved up their ass.

Tim Fulton 28:30Right.

Joe Peppercorn 28:30I mean...

Tim Fulton 28:31Well, and it's, and being sort of the guy who has clients that are bars and doing marketing for them, like, you, I go through Yelp reviews and I'm like, th- there is not... I'm sorry that the DJ wouldn't play the song- ... that you wanted to hear.

Joe Peppercorn 28:45One star.

Tim Fulton 28:46One star. Or that, yes, it is the bar's fault if it's out of paper towels.

Josh Rice 28:51Yes. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 28:52Absolutely. But, you know, reviewing it based on stuff that is not under the bar's control, yes, give it a, you know, a one-star review for, uh, bad service.

Josh Rice 29:02Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 29:03But I'm sorry you had a shitty night and got in an argument with your girlfriend. That is not a reason for a bad review.

Joe Peppercorn 29:09I have an awesome nightmare story- ... about a guy and his girlfriend arguing.

Tim Fulton 29:12Go.

Joe Peppercorn 29:13So one night, this guy and this girl, they, the, the girl was just a nightmare to deal with at the bar. And the guy-

Tim Fulton 29:21She ordered a Long Island.

Joe Peppercorn 29:23N- no, she was just mad and a- angry, and-

Josh Rice 29:26Oh, anger's the worst

Joe Peppercorn 29:26... and she was drinking a water, and he was just, I mean, he was just going to town pounding Miller Lites. And she screamed at him and left, and he continued to just drink, like, d- I mean, just a, a, an absurd amount.

Tim Fulton 29:39Mm-hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 29:39She comes back, and we're like, "Oh, man, this, this girl's back again." She comes in, starts screaming at him. He tabs out. He walks out to the cars where she is, and she's screaming at him. She throws something at him, and then he gets in the car and they take off. We go over to what she threw at him, and it was a positive pregnancy test.

Tim Fulton 29:59Oh. Wow. Wow.

Joe Peppercorn 30:08That was-

Tim Fulton 30:09I'm leaving this pause in there because it's just amazing.

Joe Peppercorn 30:14So yeah, I mean, like, I mean, I... Sometimes I wish I had a more stable life and s- like sold insurance, but then you see stuff like that. You're like, "Oh man, where... You, you wouldn't get that, you know, working in an office."

Tim Fulton 30:23Selling insurance. Right.

Joe Peppercorn 30:26What, what, what nightmare stories you got?

Josh Rice 30:28I was working at a bar here in the Short North. It was at Bodega, uh, on a Saturday night two or three years ago, and doing last call at like 1:40, 1:50. Lights come up, music comes down, asking people what they want for last call, to-go beer, shots, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Tim Fulton 30:43Right.

Josh Rice 30:44Guy comes up to me with a empty water glass, and I, I go to fill it up, and he pukes into the empty water glass on the bar top.

Tim Fulton 30:51Oh.

Josh Rice 30:51To which I respond, "We're done."

Tim Fulton 30:53Th- that-

Josh Rice 30:53"Get out, now."

Tim Fulton 30:54No shots.

Josh Rice 30:55"Gone. This guy just ruined everybody's night."

Tim Fulton 30:58Ugh.

Joe Peppercorn 30:58Christmas is canceled.

Tim Fulton 31:00It's this guy's fault.

Josh Rice 31:02Th- th- the funnest ones with those are when you do last call and people argue with you about it. "What do you mean I can't get another six rounds of..." "No, I'm done dispensing alcohol."

Tim Fulton 31:14Right.

Josh Rice 31:14"You need to leave."

Tim Fulton 31:14What do you mean? Like, yes, I will give you a shot.

Josh Rice 31:17Correct.

Tim Fulton 31:18But no, you can't have a full beer. "Well, I'll drink it really fast." No, you won't.

Josh Rice 31:22No. It, it is 2:05. I will gladly get you a shot and a six-pack to go, but I have to have you not only done with your alcohol, but out of the building at 2:30 and hopefully getting home responsibly via walking, Uber, cab, something like that.

Tim Fulton 31:36What are the other sort of... There are nightmare stories, but then there are people that just sort of make bad decisions.

Josh Rice 31:42Yeah.

Tim Fulton 31:43You know, what... How do you properly cut somebody off? And I think that, that there's an important distinction between... There are very few people that actually have to get thrown out, right?

Josh Rice 31:53Yes, correct.

Tim Fulton 31:54M- but there are a whole lot of people that simply don't know how drunk they are and need to be cut off.

Joe Peppercorn 32:00Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 32:01Because you're... A certain amount of responsibility that a bartender has to keep everyone safe.

Joe Peppercorn 32:06More than certain.

Josh Rice 32:06Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 32:07It's a lot.

Josh Rice 32:07They, they... Dram shop laws, you're legally responsible.

Tim Fulton 32:10Talk about that. You're legally responsible if you get someone so drunk that they are going to black out.

Josh Rice 32:18Oh, not even that far.

Tim Fulton 32:19Okay.

Josh Rice 32:19Like, dram shop laws are, are basically are really, really simple, and they're different in every state, and this is where they're different, when they walk in, how intoxicated they are, and if you choose to serve or not serve them.

Tim Fulton 32:30Okay.

Josh Rice 32:30Uh, so in Ohio, if they walk in the door, generally if you serve them and you, you assess their state when they walk in. That's usually the easiest way.

Tim Fulton 32:38And you're not doing that for every person, but it's if they present-

Josh Rice 32:41Yes.

Tim Fulton 32:42Right.

Josh Rice 32:42Yes. The, the, the shimmying and the swiveling and the stumbling and the dropping things and the loud voices and-

Tim Fulton 32:47Mm-hmm

Josh Rice 32:47... ordering very strong rounds right off the bat. Like, "Give me a double, triple Jack and Coke," or whatever.

Tim Fulton 32:54Mm-hmm.

Josh Rice 32:55Uh, so just, uh, the, the typical assessment of how intoxicated they are, and if you choose to serve them, then you are legally responsible for their safety.

Tim Fulton 33:03Okay. So walk me through, like, you don't know whether somebody's gonna be driving out of there.

Josh Rice 33:08Correct. Correct.

Tim Fulton 33:09So what sort of responsibility do you have? Just to make sure that they are able to walk out?

Josh Rice 33:16Yes and no. If, if you know for a fact that they are driving, 'cause they have their keys in front of them, you can do everything in your power to dissuade them from driving.

Tim Fulton 33:23Right.

Josh Rice 33:24Uh, offer-

Tim Fulton 33:24"Hey, let me call you a cab."

Josh Rice 33:25"Let me, let call you a cab. Let me call you an Uber. Where do you live? I have somebody walk you down the street." We always have barbacks.

Tim Fulton 33:30Right.

Josh Rice 33:30But if you are unable to do that, then you're, you as the person who provided them some form of alcohol are legally required to call the police. Be like, "This person is intoxicated. I served him. I tried to get him not to drive. He chose to drive. Please get him off the road."

Tim Fulton 33:48And so are you d- you're doing that when they leave?

Josh Rice 33:51Yes, when they leave.

Tim Fulton 33:51How often do you have to do that?

Josh Rice 33:53I have never done that.

Tim Fulton 33:54Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 33:54I've never had to do that.

Josh Rice 33:55I've never done that. Usually-

Tim Fulton 33:57Should you have?

Josh Rice 33:58Uh, no. No.

Tim Fulton 33:59Okay.

Josh Rice 33:59No, not at all. P- people... If, if you approach it correctly, if you approach it out of kindness and camaraderie rather than anger-

Tim Fulton 34:08Like, "Hey man, I'm on your side."

Josh Rice 34:09Yeah. Like, "Hey man-

Tim Fulton 34:10"You seem drunk."

Josh Rice 34:11"... it's time. You've had enough. How you getting home?" Or, "Hey Sam, this is the third night this week that you've been in here this hammered."

Tim Fulton 34:19Right.

Josh Rice 34:19"Let me get my barback, John, to walk you down the street to your house and make sure you get home."

Tim Fulton 34:23Right.

Josh Rice 34:23And it, it's different with regular customers.

Joe Peppercorn 34:25It's usually not... You, you very rarely have a situation where you're cutting someone off and it turns into something. It do-

Josh Rice 34:31Yes.

Joe Peppercorn 34:31That does happen.

Josh Rice 34:31Yes.

Tim Fulton 34:32Right.

Joe Peppercorn 34:32But most of the time, you have to remember, when people are very intoxicated, they lose track of time very easily.

Josh Rice 34:37Mm-hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 34:37And the easiest thing to do is when they order a drink to just say, "I'm gonna serve you water." And they just forget that they ordered a drink-

Josh Rice 34:43Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 34:44... like 90% of the time.

Josh Rice 34:45Yep.

Tim Fulton 34:45Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 34:45And then they'll or- order again five minutes later, and you say, "You know, I think, I think that water's gonna be good for you for right now."

Josh Rice 34:50Yeah.

Tim Fulton 34:51Right.

Joe Peppercorn 34:51And you know, if, if you say to someone, "I'm cutting you off," which sometimes you have no choice but to say that, usually the response is not, is going to feel-

Tim Fulton 34:58Be negative

Joe Peppercorn 34:59... embarrassment-

Josh Rice 34:59Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 34:59... and shame, and they... That's when things can get kind of messy.

Tim Fulton 35:03Right.

Joe Peppercorn 35:04If you, you know, gently s- tell someone, "Ah, I don't know," you know, like what he was saying, do it in a, in a sense of camaraderie and, and, and, and, uh, you know, that you care about them and not that you're, you know, "Well, I'm, I'm, I'm your boss." You know, you don't, you don't wanna be using authority too much on them.

Tim Fulton 35:19Right.

Joe Peppercorn 35:20But you know, it's also-

Tim Fulton 35:20Well, and it's not that like, "Hey, I'm not cutting you off because I don't like you."

Josh Rice 35:24Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 35:24It's, "I'm cutting you off for your own good."

Joe Peppercorn 35:26Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 35:27Um-

Joe Peppercorn 35:28Right. But you know, I think a, a lot of bartending also is just man- crowd management, and you just have a lot of these situ- And that's what I, I guess I was alluding to earlier when I was talking about you, you should lear- you should work in neighborhood bars. We should work in a shot and beer place where you can learn those skills of how to manage people.

Tim Fulton 35:44Right.

Joe Peppercorn 35:44Um, strangers, and how to, you know, learn how they change when they drink, because dealing with drunk people is, is something that you have to kinda learn how to do.

Tim Fulton 35:54Right.

Joe Peppercorn 35:54Or, or if not drunk, then you know, b- ... people who've had a couple drinks, like buzzed people.

Tim Fulton 35:59Right.

Josh Rice 35:59Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 35:59Um-

Tim Fulton 35:59Well, 'cause from, you know, in 20 minutes somebody's gonna go from, you know, just a normal guy sitting there watching TV to being more boisterous, to being sad, to being, you know-

Josh Rice 36:10To being the creepy guy at the bar.

Tim Fulton 36:11To being the creepy guy. It's a weird time of year. You know, we just had a crazy election.

Josh Rice 36:16Yeah.

Tim Fulton 36:16And also, uh, it's the holidays.

Josh Rice 36:19Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 36:19Yeah.

Tim Fulton 36:19You know, people are going to drink more, and there is, uh, a heightened emotion in the air.

Joe Peppercorn 36:25Well, and I also need to point out that w- w- one, the bane of a bar- bartender's existence in Columbus is, are these stupid Buckeye games.

Josh Rice 36:32Oh, God.

Joe Peppercorn 36:32I mean, you, you know, it tests the limits of how much you can s- rally, like, be a fan. 'Cause I, I like watching the games with my family. I enjoy it.

Tim Fulton 36:41Right.

Joe Peppercorn 36:42But dealing with people after these games is just an absolute nightmare.

Josh Rice 36:45We call them zombies.

Joe Peppercorn 36:46It's, it's... And it's, it, it's really disgraceful and shameful, honestly. Like, you-

Tim Fulton 36:51Is it because the amount they've drunk, had to drink?

Josh Rice 36:53Yes.

Joe Peppercorn 36:53It's, it's because, yeah, people feel like for some reason, specifically in Columbus, I don't see it a lot with other teams. Obviously, there's going to be drinking. You know, you go to a Crew game, you go to the Browns.

Josh Rice 37:03Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 37:04The, the, especially, like, you know, you go to a Cleveland Indians game, there's going to be rowdiness. I mean, that, that's built into these, uh-

Josh Rice 37:10Sports

Joe Peppercorn 37:10... sports culture.

Josh Rice 37:11Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 37:11But this OSU thing is a different, different level, you know?

Tim Fulton 37:15It's the entire city. Well-

Joe Peppercorn 37:16It's the entire city loses its mind, and beyond that, they think it's okay.

Tim Fulton 37:20Right.

Josh Rice 37:21Mm-hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 37:21That, that they're acting-

Tim Fulton 37:22Well, there is no other city in the country, I don't think, where, unless it's, like, literally a college town, where it's better to go grocery shopping during a game because literally no one will be there.

Josh Rice 37:33No one will be there.

Joe Peppercorn 37:33They'll play a game of golf.

Josh Rice 37:34Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 37:35Like, it's awesome, that, that aspect. But, you know, we- we'll go the whole year without a fight in the bar. You know, whole year. N- very, you know, little incidents here and there, someone's angry, yells at the bartender, whatever. Then the first game, there's two fights, every bath- all the toilets are th- thrown up in.

Josh Rice 37:52Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 37:52Everything's trashed.

Josh Rice 37:53Throw up.

Joe Peppercorn 37:53You didn't make a lot of money because everybody showed up d- really drunk and-

Tim Fulton 37:57So they're not drinking anymore

Joe Peppercorn 37:58... they're just drinking water. They're not tipping. I mean, they're just... It brings out the worst in people. I mean, I, I, I, sorry to-

Tim Fulton 38:05Well, what's-

Joe Peppercorn 38:05... go on a rant about the Buckeyes, but I mean, it's just-

Josh Rice 38:07No, I-

Tim Fulton 38:08No, no

Joe Peppercorn 38:08... it's a real thing. It's-

Tim Fulton 38:08Well, what's interesting is, like, it's not confined to campus.

Josh Rice 38:11Oh, no.

Tim Fulton 38:11And it's not, it's-

Josh Rice 38:12It's citywide

Joe Peppercorn 38:13... everywhere.

Josh Rice 38:13Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 38:14You can go out, and it w- it's, it makes our jobs nightmares those day, because, because we don't, we make so much less money. You know, working in a restaurant, you make, they, they do all these night games now. You, you, it decimates business.

Tim Fulton 38:26Right.

Joe Peppercorn 38:26And then, then you're, you're there later anyway because people show up afterwards acting like idiots, you know? It's, it's awful. I, I wish... Yeah, and you can't really d- I don't know if there's anything anyone could do, but, uh, the, it's this, this mentality that I, you know, people can just behave any way they want-

Tim Fulton 38:46Right

Joe Peppercorn 38:46... because the OH- highest, because a bunch of kids played football today. Like, I'm going to lose my mind over, you know, kids playing football and go terrorize these bartenders.

Josh Rice 38:56Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 38:56And it's like pl- you know, you just, you j- it's, it's so baffling that it's, it's okay. You know, you have these people getting angry about the protests after the election. They're like, "Oh, man, this is, this is terrible. There, there were three incidents of broken windows." I'm like, that is every single OSU game. They, every single game. Like, I don't think people realize, like, all throughout the city, that restaurants are getting windows smashed, properties getting damaged, people are passing out in, in alleys. Like, all this stuff is happening all in one day in a city.

Tim Fulton 39:26It's New Year-

Joe Peppercorn 39:26And we never talk about-

Tim Fulton 39:27It's New Year's Eve every Saturday.

Josh Rice 39:30Every Saturday in the fall.

Joe Peppercorn 39:31Every Saturday.

Josh Rice 39:31Yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 39:31Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Like, it's...

Josh Rice 39:33And it's, it, it doesn't matter if it's a home game or an away game. Doesn't matter what time of day it is. Some days are better than others. Uh, I will say that on one positive note, if you are somebody who enjoys fine food and drink, every Saturday in the fall, you can walk into any of the better restaurants in town and get a table.

Joe Peppercorn 39:50Yep.

Josh Rice 39:50And people will love that you're there, and they will love taking care of you because you are the only person there. Uh, but yet-

Joe Peppercorn 39:56I give, I give great service. Don't worry about that. I mean, like, "Hey, you're here."

Josh Rice 40:02I know in the Short North, and even when I was working in German Village and on Bexley, we, we tried our best to corral fans, especially rowdy fans. Like I said, we call them zombies as they're walking back from the stadium. Uh-

Tim Fulton 40:12Into one section?

Josh Rice 40:13Not necessarily into one section, but just try to keep them a little more calm.

Tim Fulton 40:16Uh-huh.

Josh Rice 40:16Uh, we don't encourage them to be as boisterous as possible. They might get ignored when they order a round of shots, that type of thing.

Tim Fulton 40:24Right.

Josh Rice 40:24Uh, just try and keep the level down a little bit and try and make sure that they have a good time.

Tim Fulton 40:30Right.

Josh Rice 40:30Uh, one thing I wanna add, Joe's mentioned a couple times that how to start in bartending, and I just thought about this, uh, at a neighborhood bar, a dive bar. I actually did the opposite. I started in chain restaurants.

Tim Fulton 40:41Okay.

Josh Rice 40:41Uh, but I also, I also went through the entire management training program in a chain restaurant, so that has helped immensely in working in a 2:00 AM bar now, and even working in a, a cocktail bar that was open till midnight or 1:00 AM. Just, and you're learning how procedures run, learning how to, to, to judge people, learning how to talk to people, learning how to-

Tim Fulton 41:00Well, and s-

Josh Rice 41:00... take care of problems

Tim Fulton 41:01... and even knowing what everybody's role is.

Josh Rice 41:04Correct. Correct.

Tim Fulton 41:04And knowing when, like, if there, if it's a manager/bartender situation, knowing what the manager's role is and what yours is, and frankly, if the manager's not doing their job, you know when you need to step in.

Josh Rice 41:16Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Tim Fulton 41:17Anything about how the Short North is now becoming simply a strip of bars?

Josh Rice 41:23The Short North is different now than it was. Uh, when I started at Bodega ... a little over four years ago. Marcus Meechum was in the kitchen.

Tim Fulton 41:29Mm-hmm.

Josh Rice 41:30Collin and Sang still own the place. It was more of a neighborhood restaurant, craft beer bar-

Tim Fulton 41:35Mm-hmm

Josh Rice 41:35... until about-

Tim Fulton 41:36And let's go through those names real quick. Marcus, uh, currently the, the chef/owner/operator of Steam at Little Rock Bar.

Josh Rice 41:42Mm.

Tim Fulton 41:43Uh, Sang went on to open The Table-

Josh Rice 41:45The Table

Tim Fulton 41:45... on Fifth Avenue, and then Collin has his hands in a couple of different things, but primarily, uh, Seventh Son Brewing-

Josh Rice 41:51Seventh Son

Tim Fulton 41:52... Brewing on-

Josh Rice 41:52And then Barrel & Bottle at the North Market.

Tim Fulton 41:54Yeah.

Josh Rice 41:54Awesome bottle shop.

Tim Fulton 41:54Yeah.

Josh Rice 41:55Great wine selection.

Tim Fulton 41:55And so at that time it was sort... You guys were sort of almost sort of the north end of things.

Josh Rice 42:00Oh, absolutely, the north end of things. Yeah, Third Avenue was the far north end-

Tim Fulton 42:04Right

Josh Rice 42:04... of, of the Short North.

Tim Fulton 42:04I mean, Scully's was up there.

Josh Rice 42:06Yeah.

Tim Fulton 42:06It's... Well, and it's funny-

Josh Rice 42:07Yeah

Tim Fulton 42:07... because 10 years ago Scully was actually a, a client of mine-

Josh Rice 42:11Okay

Tim Fulton 42:11... advertising client, and he said, "Oh, I'm just sitting on it waiting for the Short North to catch up."

Josh Rice 42:16To creep up.

Tim Fulton 42:17And I was literally like, "That's never going to happen." At the time there were so many condos being built-

Josh Rice 42:24Yes, yes

Tim Fulton 42:24... that has now become apartments being built. But I was like, "There's no- there is- you are always going to be on an island."

Josh Rice 42:31Hmm.

Tim Fulton 42:32And I was totally wrong.

Josh Rice 42:33Yeah.

Tim Fulton 42:34Because slowly but surely... I mean, this was when Little Brothers was still in existence.

Josh Rice 42:38Oh, wow. Okay.

Tim Fulton 42:39Uh, and so Little Brothers, which is now Standard Hall-

Josh Rice 42:43Standard Hall

Tim Fulton 42:43... and that whole strip is just more and more-

Josh Rice 42:46Yeah

Tim Fulton 42:47... frankly bro bars.

Josh Rice 42:49Yeah.

Tim Fulton 42:49Uh-

Josh Rice 42:49It is and it isn't

Tim Fulton 42:50... which is fine. You know, it's, it, it's for a certain kind of patron, but frankly the, the turning point was the sale of the Park Street bars to-

Josh Rice 43:00Oh, yeah

Tim Fulton 43:00... Jimmy Woodlands.

Josh Rice 43:01Jimmy Woodlands, yeah.

Tim Fulton 43:02And then the opening of-

Josh Rice 43:04Pint House

Tim Fulton 43:05... Pint House.

Josh Rice 43:05Pint House, yeah.

Tim Fulton 43:05And then the opening of Pint House.

Josh Rice 43:06Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 43:06Where sort of... And everybody... And, you know, a certain population bemoaned it, but there w- you know, it was, okay, the Park Street, Park Street is now invading High Street, and then it slowly sort of proliferates north.

Josh Rice 43:19Yeah, yeah. And I, I personally-

Tim Fulton 43:21But it-

Josh Rice 43:21... have enjoyed it. It's, uh, I don't necessarily frequent all of those bars that you just talked about, but-

Tim Fulton 43:26Right

Josh Rice 43:27... there are young professionals, mid-30s and even early 40s, late 40s, older professional married people who come down the Short North that never would before.

Tim Fulton 43:37Right.

Josh Rice 43:37Uh, I'll take your money. Um, you know, and, and they're, they're nice people. Uh, some of them get out of hand sometimes, but-

Tim Fulton 43:44Right

Josh Rice 43:44... they, they know what they want. They have plenty of money to spend.

Tim Fulton 43:47Mm-hmm.

Josh Rice 43:47And they spend it freely. Uh, I've, I've really liked having Standard Hall there because frankly we get the overflow .

Tim Fulton 43:54Right, at Bodega.

Josh Rice 43:55Uh, and it's, it was the same thing with Pint House. Pint House, when it fills up, people get overflow at all the other bars and restaurants up and down the strip.

Tim Fulton 44:02Right.

Josh Rice 44:02Uh, but I will say that, like, the chain commercialization of the Short North has been kind of, kinda sad.

Tim Fulton 44:08Well, thankfully it's not... These are for the most part local guys.

Josh Rice 44:13Correct.

Tim Fulton 44:13Uh-

Josh Rice 44:13Correct

Tim Fulton 44:13... you know, there is the Corso, Gallicchio, Swanson.

Josh Rice 44:16Yeah. Now Swanson has his own and-

Tim Fulton 44:18Right. The, and then the other people like, what, Melt, Bakersfield, and The Eagle, they're still Ohio.

Josh Rice 44:24Yeah, yeah. Melt's Cleveland.

Tim Fulton 44:25Right.

Josh Rice 44:26Uh, Matt Fish, I met him. He's a great guy. Bakersfield and, and Eagle are what they call Thunderdome, uh, group.

Tim Fulton 44:32Okay.

Josh Rice 44:33And they've, they've got a, a number of concepts based in Cincinnati, but they've been really good about expanding. Uh, I really like The Eagle. Their food is awesome. Their fried chicken is delicious.

Tim Fulton 44:41It's just weird that they're called The Eagle and they're not a leather gay bar.

Josh Rice 44:45Yes, yes. It is weird. It is weird. I remember we had that conversation. Yeah, it is weird.

Joe Peppercorn 44:49I, I... See, I'm on the o- opposite opinion. Well, I, like, I, I lament the demise of the Short North because I remember when I was 16, one of my first jobs was delivering bagels to a lot of the spots there for Sammy's Bagels.

Josh Rice 45:00Okay.

Tim Fulton 45:00Okay.

Joe Peppercorn 45:01And, like, I remember going in these places and there'd be, like, naked pictures on the wall. I mean, these places were, like, they were edgy.

Tim Fulton 45:06Right.

Joe Peppercorn 45:06It, it was like dangerous there.

Josh Rice 45:07You're talking about, like, the galleries?

Joe Peppercorn 45:08Gay people everywhere. Like, and it w- uh, like for, for me being from the suburbs, I, I was like, "Oh my, oh my God."

Josh Rice 45:13Nice young Catholic boy.

Joe Peppercorn 45:14I mean, there was all this art on the... Every place had art on the walls. There w- I mean, all the shops were... You know, there was, The Open Book was there. You had Coffee Table, which was, you know, that was just like-

Tim Fulton 45:24Oh, yeah

Joe Peppercorn 45:25... like a ga- a gay, a coffee house.

Tim Fulton 45:27Mm-hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 45:27And, like, it was-

Tim Fulton 45:27That's where Bakersfield is now.

Joe Peppercorn 45:29Yeah. It, it just... It was, it was a m-

Tim Fulton 45:31Hmm

Joe Peppercorn 45:31... it was amazing. Like, I remember just being a kid and being like, "Oh." And it was kinda dangerous, and there was, there was a witchcraft shop, and then there was, like, you know, there was a church in the middle of it. It was just this weird amalgamation of all these very interesting and, and edgy, and, and, and artistic things. I remember being, feeling very inspired and, and frightened by it.

Tim Fulton 45:49Right.

Joe Peppercorn 45:49And overwhelmed with this sense of like, "Wow, this is, this is right down the street from me, and all this cool stuff is happening. You know, life isn't entirely, you know, w- what I get in the suburbs. This is, this is so cool." And then, you know, of course then I went to Little Brothers.

Tim Fulton 46:01It was the hub of counterculture.

Joe Peppercorn 46:02Yeah.

Josh Rice 46:03Yeah, yeah.

Joe Peppercorn 46:03And when I-

Tim Fulton 46:03Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 46:03... I went to Little Brothers when I was 17 and saw these, you know, amazing bands. Like, you know, they, they didn't care that I wasn't 18. They let me into the show. Uh, they just, you know, made me pay $5 extra or whatever.

Tim Fulton 46:12Right.

Joe Peppercorn 46:12And I would see these Columbus bands, and they... I mean, they were so edgy, and it was like nothing I'd ever heard on the radio. You know, there was no internet at the time, so this was, you know, for me it was... Like, that, the Short North was where I really, really g- um, learned, I think learned to be an artist and learned what it meant. And I, you know, like, I consider myself an artist, and it f- helped shape me. And I see it now, and I, on the one hand, like Josh is saying, like, people bringing money in, and a lot of our friends are making money serving-

Josh Rice 46:39Yeah

Joe Peppercorn 46:39... and bartending there, and then we, if, if something happens with us with our job, we have the option of going and there's all these jobs now.

Tim Fulton 46:45Right.

Joe Peppercorn 46:46But I really, really miss having that edginess and that, and that artistic side. And I, I see, I see it... It, it would, it would be, I think, a little less sad if, uh, if it were not happening everywhere. It's just ubiquitous, this commercialization of everything, where everything has just become this money grab. Uh, whereas b- you know, before, the Short North, yeah, yeah, these were businesses making money, but it was ar- it was mostly, uh, for ar- art's sake.

Tim Fulton 47:09Right.

Joe Peppercorn 47:09And then they're like, "Oh, we can make a few bucks off this." And, like, I see a place like Standard Hall, which, I mean, it's f- I, I'm not criticizing the restaurant, but f- for, like, that, that building was sacred to me. I, I released two albums there. I played these really important shows.

Josh Rice 47:22Hmm.

Joe Peppercorn 47:22I turned 21 there seeing Guided by Voices. I'd, I opened up for n- you know, great national acts. I, I met some of my, like, rock and roll heroes there, and I, I played so many important shows. And to see it, like, to go in there is just, like, this, this, uh... I don't know. Part of me, part of me inside just becomes very mournful wh- when I-

Tim Fulton 47:43Go buy it now.

Tim Fulton 47:44Right.

Tim Fulton 47:44I mean, I guess that's the nature of things. They have to change and progress and all that, but I, I, I wish there were a way to have more art and, and f- and, and l- not everything be totally commerce, but that's just my rant, you know?

Tim Fulton 47:56Well, and I think a lot of it has to do with sort of the, the rising rents of-

Tim Fulton 48:01Oh, yeah, absolutely

Tim Fulton 48:02... of that's why an art gallery can't afford to be there.

Tim Fulton 48:05Right. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:06Um, and so they have to be somewhere else. They go to, uh, Old Town East. They go to Milo Grogan even.

Tim Fulton 48:13Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:13Um, and that's sort of how artistic communities evolve.

Tim Fulton 48:18Yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:18And so-

Tim Fulton 48:19Yeah, Franklinton and King-Lincoln District-

Tim Fulton 48:20Yep

Tim Fulton 48:21... and all that.

Tim Fulton 48:22Yeah, but that's the nature of things.

Tim Fulton 48:23Yeah.

Tim Fulton 48:24So anything else you wanted to touch on, Joe?

Tim Fulton 48:26Nope.

Tim Fulton 48:27Anything else you wanted to touch on, Josh?

Tim Fulton 48:28Just be nice to each other, have fun, tip your bartenders and servers, know what you want.

Tim Fulton 48:34Do you know when it's nice to be nice, Josh?

Tim Fulton 48:36What's that?

Tim Fulton 48:37All the time.

Tim Fulton 48:38All the time. All the time.

Tim Fulton 48:41All right, gentlemen, thank you so much for your time, and, uh, have a good holiday.

Tim Fulton 48:45Thank you. You as well.

Tim Fulton 48:46Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, contacts, enemies, your local bartender. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, you can get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.