400 West Rich
The terrible fire in Oakland, California sparked discussions in Columbus about the safety of our artist communities. Chris Sherman, the development director for the largest of those communities, 400 West Rich, sat down to talk about the history of the building, how they keep their tenants and guests safe, and why it’s important to keep having these conversations.
Shownotes:
- 400 West Rich
- The fire at Ghost Ship in Oakland, CA
- Strongwater
- Robert Eickholt
- Franklinton Arts District
- Junctionview Studios
- Tacocat Cooperative
- Blockfort
- Ohio Art League
- Besa
- OSU STEAM Factory
Big thank you to our sponsor this week, Art Makes Columbus Columbus Makes Art.
Read the transcript
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are taking a piece of national news and looking for the local perspective on it. On December 2nd this year, uh, at approximately 11:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, a fire broke out in a warehouse known as Ghost Ship that was converted into an artist collective and into unpermitted dwelling units in the Fruitvale neighborhood of Oakland, California. At the time of the fire, the warehouse was hosting a concert without a permit. A total of 36 people were killed in the fire. It was the deadliest in the history of Oakland and the deadliest in California since the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. With that terrible and unfortunate event in mind, I sat down for a conversation with Chris Sherman, uh, the Director of Development of Columbus' largest artist studio collective, 400 West Rich. We, uh, talk about the history of the building, the uses of the building now, how they keep their tenants and their guests safe, the importance of that safety and the importance of having an ongoing conversation about this. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by Art Makes Columbus, Columbus Makes Art, featuring stories about our city's incredible artists, stories full of inspiration, challenge, passion and success. For videos, articles, an up-to-the-minute calendar of events and an artist directory, visit columbusmakesart.com, the resource for all things arts and culture in the capital city. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Chris Sherman, the Director of Development for 400 West Rich, the artist studio and event space in Franklinton. We're here on an, a negative occasion, recording this the week after the fire at the Ghost Ship in Oakland, California. Just sort of want to address the concerns of the community regarding artist communities and whether- Mm-hmm ... they are safe. First, as an introduction to the space, Chris, can you tell us what, what is 400 West Rich? 400 West Rich is, uh, essentially a, a 95,000 square foot building that, uh, houses many different uses and disciplines under one roof. Um, we have, I believe, I have to ask my leasing manager about this, I believe we have 107 art studios. Uh, uh, we also have, uh, another 17 units on the second floor which are used for artists, uh, some, some, some folks in technology. Uh, we have an open workspace on the second floor as well, which has a whole host of tenants. Uh-
That's a shared co-working space basically. Uh, essentially, yes. And, uh, and on the first floor, uh, in the front of the building, we have Strong Water Food & Spirits, which is a, after the recent addition this summer, uh, it's, uh, an 18,000 square foot event space restaurant facility. So full service. Somebody can walk in off the street and go and get a drink and have dinner. There is also an event space where I know you guys have hosted a myriad of weddings and corporate events, fashion shows, presentations, I think a couple of roasts. Couple of roasts. Uh, we used to do monthly dance parties, uh, but the, the parties, uh, essentially outgrew the space. Primarily our focus is, uh, vendor shows, craft shows, weddings, uh, corporate parties, holiday parties.
What is the capacity for that event space? Uh, the main event space holds 300. Okay. We, we have an additional event space that was just completed over the summer, which, uh, has another, uh, maximum occupancy of 150. We have a patio that we also, uh, officially, uh, license as part of the event space, uh, which, uh, also holds another 150. And then the front restaurant, uh, has an occupancy of 150 as well.
Just in the way that you're talking, it's fair to say that you guys do this correctly. You gu- It is, uh, you know the occupancy of the spa- or the- Sure ... appropriate licensed occupancy of the space. You have fire suppression systems. It is, it is a quote unquote safe space. It is. Um, we, uh, actually had the fire department there today.
How convenient for you. How, how convenient. Um, but you know, everything, everything, you know, obviously checked out. Uh, they're going around, uh, checking on all the spaces in town apparently. But, uh, so when you, when you say correctly, um, sure. Uh, yeah, you could say that we obviously operate, uh, in a code compliant, uh, uh, you know, manner and we obviously treat all of our, uh, situations there as such. But you know, we were fortunate enough that, you know, the building obviously had a lot of existing systems in it that al- that allowed us to do what, what we do. What was the building before it was 400 West Rich? It, it was a manufacturing facility. It was originally built as a sanitary manufacturing factory, uh, early 20th century. Uh-
Like toilets or? Uh, porcelain casting. Uh, uh- ... casting toilets, tubs, sinks. Okay. Things of that nature. Water fountains. And then, you know, the, the area was a hub for refrigeration, ice houses. Uh, the, uh, Spaghetti Warehouse was a large ice house here in town. And, uh, we, uh, well I shouldn't say we, but, uh, David Ebinger who was the, uh, who had the porcelain casting facility realized that small commercial and residential refrigeration was becoming more accessible in terms of technology. So he ended up switching over and they had a huge R&D department and they developed the electric dehumidifier, the electric cooled, uh, water fountain, the water cooler.
Okay. Um, they, they had, uh, a- They didn't invent them They did
Okay Those were all developed and invented... Well, the refrigerated- Versions, versions of them ... ver- versions of those-
Right ... were developed within the building. They quickly outgrew the space by 1950. Uh, became Ebco Manufacturing. One of their product lines was Oasis, which is a common sort of household name in terms of drinking fountains. Right Uh, they, uh, they ended up moving out to Whitehall. They were off Hamilton Road. They had a large facility out there basically on the s- southeast corner of the airport. And then in the early 2000s, they shipped the plant off to Mexico and they ended up... They're no longer here in Columbus. So, uh, after the 1950s, because it was set up for refrigeration, it became a perfect opportunity for Harvey Swensen, who invented the soft serve ice cream, uh, equipment to have a more, uh, Midwest located, uh, factory, uh, to produce his soft serve ice cream equipment. And they were in that building until 1980.
Okay. Uh, they were called Sweden Freezer. And, uh, and the owner was q- a quite interesting man. He was a diplomat from the US to China during the 1970s for Richard Nixon. Uh, he also invented a lot of the equipment and mechanics that were used in the, uh, di- in, in, in the kidney dialysis machine. So yeah, so that, that, that was pretty interesting there. So the building certainly has a, a rich history. It, it, it does. It was purchased in 1985 by Robert Eichholz, who, uh, who we had purchased the building from, uh, in 2010. Uh, Robert Eichholz is an internationally known glassblower. Uh, he's kinda slowed down over the years in terms of his production.
Just 'cause he's getting older. Uh, yeah, getting older and, and, and whatnot. But he, uh, uh, had his studio in the building for, you know, 30 years and he, uh- He stayed there after you purchased it too, right? He... Yeah, he did. He was, he was a tenant essentially of ours, uh, up until 2014, uh, when, when he decided to open up another, uh, s- space over by the airport. And it was, it was kind of a combination of what we're talking about. I mean, his studio was old.
Mm-hmm. And he has 12 furnaces in there and employees, and he hadn't upgraded anything in decades. And I was just like, "And the roof's leaking," and I can't... I could never work on the roof because of the ventilation that's constantly running, and it was just a, a, a big hassle. And I- Mm-hmm ... you know, here I am collecting water on the floor upstairs so it doesn't rain in, into the restaurant, you know? And, and the fire department, you know, was started asking me questions about him, and I said, "Uh, sure, you know, let me, let me see what I can do." And that, and that's when he made the decision to go ahead and purchase another building and build a brand new facility for himself. And he has, he has the means to do that, uh, which is, you know, which is, which is another part of the conversation. But-
Okay ... um, but at any rate, at, in a, in a nutshell, that's sort of the history of the space. So- And so who owns it now? Uh, Lance Robbins, uh, who is the, uh, principal of his real estate development company. Uh, Brick Investment Corporation, um, is, is an interesting guy. I, I've been in the neighborhood since 2004. I have a small shop.
He's an investor and leaves you to sort of run things, correct? Sure. I mean, you know, the man owns a lot of property in Venice Beach, Hollywood, Silver Lake, Koreatown. Had purchased this property in Los Angeles back in the '70s and the '80s. A lot of those neighborhoods have changed. He's sort of pseudo-retired, but he decided to s- to, to do some commercial redevelopment stuff in other cities. And, and he first set his sights on Providence, Rhode Island, Pawtucket specifically, uh, where he has a, a half a million square foot mill there called Hope Artisan Village. And he's got a, a, a bunch of galleries and mostly commercial space. Uh, some restaurants, a large music venue there, uh, rents from, from him as well. Okay. And he has a bunch of apartments there. He, he, he converted a, a, another mill into 250 units. Uh, and, uh-
So he had done this before. He had done this in the early 2000s. Okay. Uh, and then his daughter was at Antioch out in Yellow Springs, and she said, "Hey," you know, she was coming to Columbus to take photographs of the buildings. Uh, ruin porn, as I like to call it. And, uh, she said, "Hey, Dad, you should take a look at this stuff. Columbus, its market is fantastic. You know, it's a great place." So he did. He came and, uh, introduced himself, and I got to know the guy basically 'cause my shop kind of sits in the middle of his sort of target area in terms of what he was looking to purchase.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, we got to know each other over the years. Uh, at the time, myself, Jim Sweeney, Sarah Weinstock, Nikos Rutkowski, several others were doing, uh, art events in the neighborhood through a nonprofit we had started called the Franklinton Arts District, or FAD for short. Mm-hmm. And we, uh... He was a big sponsor of that. He, he donated, uh, an, an old church, uh, which is currently the Vanderelli Room, um, for our use. He would donate money for Urban Scrawl, Go West events, things of that nature. So when he finally closed on the property at 401 West Town or 400 West Rich, I said, "What are you doing with it?" And he said, "I don't know." And I said, "Well, we should do studios 'cause there's a huge demand for that here in town." And-
Right. Well, and remind me what was sort of available at the time. Well, you had Milo, you had, you had Junction View. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, there were, there were things going on over at Millworks. Um-
But not sort of to the scale that you're talking about. No. Right. No, no. And, uh, and, you know, basically, you know, uh, with, with being involved with folks over at Junction View, and folks at Junction View were involved with FAD, and I'd gotten to know a lot of those people over the years. We essentially used that as a model to sort of c- uh, create the, the, the affordable studio space, uh, in Franklinton. Uh, it was, it was announced, uh, shortly after, uh, we were looking to start our project that, uh, Nationwide Realty was, was going to be basically demolishing Junction View.
Mm-hmm. And that, that helped sort of initially fill some of our space. Um- Okay ... uh, out of the ashes rose, I guess, 400 West Rich.
Well, because Junction View... So Junction View closed, and Junction View was a huge space. And then Adam Burlett took a s- like, basically a subsection of those artists and started Taco Cat. Mm-hmm. Now he's opening Block Fort in downtown. But- Which is open. Yeah
... so you, so you guys did get some of those, the leftover artists, basically. Yeah, there were, there were folks that were looking to move, uh, preemptively prior to the... You know, they, they didn't wanna be in a rush. Uh- Right ... uh, obviously. I mean, they had, they... I believe they had 44 s- uh, units, and Taco Cat was maybe 15 or something.
Right. So it was a much smaller, uh, cooperative space. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, we were able to You know, essentially sort of rehouse a lot of people, and a lot of those tenants are still with us today, so. Talk about s- what amenities you guys have there at the space for artists. Well, I mean, you know, in terms of a, of, of a basic studio space, uh, you know, your rent includes, you know, the electricity, the heat, uh, the use of the Wi-Fi. You're included in any kind of show or event that we do.
Mm-hmm. Uh, you're included in the promotion, the marketing. Um, we also have, you know, uh, lots of open, uh, areas and corridors which we use as, uh, sort of art gallery space. There's opportunities for artists to do shows, and just essentially participate in, uh, in, in everything that we do. Um- What's the cost on a, as you say, basic studio? A basic studio start at anywhere from 90 cents a square foot per month, and if you want something that's, uh, large or if you want something that has, uh, maybe full-height walls, you know, our d- most of the walls only go up about eight feet. Um-
Okay ... but if you wanna be in a more private area, uh, a lot of those units have, uh, central air. They've got, uh, centralized HVAC, a much more robust internet service. The, the entire building features fiber optic, uh, which has been fantastic. But, uh, so I mean, there are different levels, you know, and then of course some of those units can go up to a dollar fifty, dollar sixty-five a square foot per month. And for those that aren't familiar with that pricing, what does that mean per month? I mean, you know, if... Well, for a unit that's, uh, you know, 500 square feet, you know, do the math. You know, it's 7, 750 a month, you know.
Okay. But that's a, that's a pretty large space. Absolutely. And that includes all of the, uh, you know, like, again, uh, the electric, the gas, the heat, the Wi-Fi, the whole nine. So for a lot of folks it's been... You know, that's why we stay full, because if you look at other options, whether it's downtown or, or, you know, other spaces, it's, uh, it's pretty affordable. And at the same time, you're, you're also connected to everybody else in the building, you know?
Right. There's a tremendous amount of, of, you know- It's a network ... of networking and, you know, in- inclusion that, you know, that has been generated.
And we should be, because we, of the reason that we're here, the occasion that we're here, we should explicitly state no one lives at 400 West Rich. Oh, yeah, no. The, the, uh, residential use is strictly, uh, prohibited. But the tenants do come and go as- They have, they have 24-hour access, you know, and, and, and I, I certainly keep my eyes, you know, uh, you know, I, I see what, what cars are there at night-
Right ... you know, things of that nature. So there are ways for me- And you go and make sure to, that the- Yeah, and there's-
... the lights are on there ... yeah, and there's, yeah, there's, there's ways for me to, you know, track activity and things of that nature. I also try not to be like a, you know, a, a, a burden or some sort of strict, you know, crazy- You're... No ... helicopter manager, you know?
Right. It's not your job to be an authority figure there. Yeah. And, and, and we don't, and it's... W- we rarely have any, you know, issues regarding any of that stuff. So it's... Yeah. We've, we've had no issues in terms of any of, of that. So there are certainly art studios in Columbus that are not up to code in terms of, you know, first of all, what goes on there in terms of having- Well, you have various different levels, I mean, but, you know, any kind of occupancy permit that, that is, uh, you know, geared towards assembly is, is, is a much stricter... You know, you're, you're, you're gonna have to adhere to much more strict, uh, building and, and code compliance than you would for maybe a, a, an, an artist manufacturing use group, uh-
Mm-hmm ... you know. So one of the things that, you know... And like I said before, you know, we were very fortunate that the building had an existing sprinkler system. I mean, that was a big... I mean, now we've spent a lot of money modifying it, fixing it- Right ... uh, updating it, things of that nature. Uh, but it, it, you know, it, it, it... We were very fortunate for that. And, you know, and when you mention other spaces, most of the spaces that I'm familiar with aren't really dangerous in terms of building or safety. It, it's, it's, it, it all kinda boils down to a zoning and paperwork issue.
Okay. And that's where I think a lot of people need to get their stuff in order, and I've been con- and I've helped various other collectives in town over the course of the last couple of years, sort of helped guide them through that process, because I've gone through this myself. Right. And, and I-
Well, and it's one of those things that if you're setting out to... It, first of all, uh, it's a gigantic undertaking to do- Mm-hmm ... something like that. And also, when you set out to do it, you don't, I imagine, know what the hurdles are going to be. No, you don't, and that's why you have to hire professionals like architects and engineers to help, uh, create the plan and decipher the code and, and, and decipher the, you know, the OBC, you know, the, the Ohio Revised Building Code. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it could be very daunting. It could be brain damage at times. I mean, it's just, you know, you just, you just wanna run to the bar, you know-
Right ... when you, when you're done with the day. And, uh, and it's a process that we were able to do in small phases. You know, we didn't build the entire building out at one time for various reasons. A, we don't have that kind of money, and, and, and B, it, it was... You know, as we start to occupy the building in phases, it creates more revenue, which helps work on the rest of the building. Right. And then, then we decided to do the restaurant, which created a lot of revenue to continue to work on the building. And, and, and, uh, that's where it's really been key is sort of creating activities there that create capital for you to continue to build out the rest of the space. Um, the other part of it too is, is, you know, I don't really... I, I'm a, I'm a firm believer in sort of listening to the market and letting the market tell me what it wants. And, and to build the entire building out at one time and essentially try to inject people into it is, is not really the right way to go. You know, you end up backtracking. You end up tearing things out or making modifications based on, you know, the trends or the changes in the market or, or just based on the demand that you, that, that you are seeking or, you know, getting. So it, it's been... You know, that's, that's typically how we've always tried to take things, and it's been a very smart approach.
Are you done with your plan at this point? 400 West Rich, the, the, the property there is, is, is all built out. Okay. That's, that's 100% complete. We have another studio space that's, uh, currently under construction- A little further down on Rich Street, about half a block away, and I have, uh, sort of paid tribute to the old manufacturing, uh, facility that was there. Uh, Chrome Edge was a brand that was, uh, that created, uh, sink rings, and l- laminate countertop trims, and stair nosing, and stair railings, and, you know, uh, carpet and flooring transition strips. It was an aluminum extrusion facility built during World War II, uh, and operated until the early 1980s.
Okay. Uh, it was, uh, it did business all over the country. Um, after doing some, some, some research and finding things online, working with a historical, uh, uh, consultant here in town, uh, you know, we were able to sort of come up with a w- with a, a brand and an identity for that, for those, those u- th- those units called Chrome Edge Studios, and, um, we're looking to bring those online some- sometime in February. Great. Um, but that's been, again, a big... You know, converting these old factories into these new v- new uses poses lots of challenges. You know, uh, chopping the area up into smaller, smaller fire areas, you know?
Right. You know, that way the building is, you know, becomes safer and you, and you could, you know, avoid having to do costly things like, you know, adding a suppression system where maybe one didn't exist. Mm-hmm. So you, you know, that, that building is a true, I believe, 2B in terms of a construction-type facility where it has a steel roof, concrete walls, and a concrete floor. There's really nothing in there that can burn, um, except for content.
Right. So it's, it's, uh, so that's been a very interesting project. What challenges at 400 do you guys still have in terms of just daily operations or in terms of perception of how you guys operate? Well-
I mean, you are a for-profit business. Oh, yeah. I think that's important to point out. Yeah, it's... Oh, I still call it, I still like to ca- like to call us a non-profit. Guess there's just been no profit, but, uh- At any rate, that's 'cause, well, we just reinvest. You know, we just sort of, you know, pour everything back into the building, and that's great. You know, it's, it's, it's certainly... There is profit. It's just reinvested. So, but, uh, at any rate, the, uh, yeah, we're not like a registered non-profit. Uh, so we, we, we don't utilize, uh, grants or, or any kind of, uh, uh, assistance in that, in, in that fashion. And, and, and that's, and that's good because it, it leaves opportunities for other people in town to utilize those, those, those kind of programs and resources.
Right. So- And you do house a couple of non-profits. We do. We, we have the Ohio Art League, which is the oldest arts, uh, organization, I believe, in the state of Ohio.
Mm-hmm. Uh, BESA, uh, Matthew Goldstein operates his, uh, his, his program out of the building. Uh, we have a few other tenants as well. The OSU Steam Factory on the second floor, basically a interdisciplinary group of, uh, professors and, uh, students that, that get together and create projects and, and do research and things. So it... So, you know, in, in terms of our operation and perception, yeah, we're not a non-profit. You know, we get that kind of stuff all the time. You know, we're not... You know, there's a lot of different scenes in town, you know? And, and that's something to kinda talk about, too, and it kinda rolls into perception. Mm-hmm. Particularly since this very tragic, unfortunate fire in, in Oakland at, at Ghost Ship was... You know, I, I started kind of... I, I got, you know, several different types of messages. It was hysteria.
Okay. It was... Some folks were, you know, concerned about the, the facilities. Uh, I had tenants that, you know, "Well, I hope we have sprinklers." And then, you know, some people, "All you gotta do is look up." And I'm like, "Well, some people don't know these things," you know? So- Right ... so, you know, so, so there... You know, I was getting all kinds of messages and, uh, you know. And then, then o- one of the messages I got on a Facebook post I made was I was essentially sort of being, you know, attacked for the, you know, type of facility that we operate. And there's, there, there seems to be a, you know... You know, artists can be artists and, you know, we all have our little personality quirks, but there, you know, there, you know, there are, there are several different scenes. And I think when you, when you look at, you know, the different scenes within the arts community as a whole, we could be viewed by younger, more f- you know, DIY or fringe art- art kids as, like, sort of the commercialized space.
Okay. You know? And, and, you know, and that's fine. You know, I don't necess- Well, 'cause it does cost money to be there. I... Yeah.
You have a- Yeah ... a lease. You have an actual agreement. Yeah, and I don't have an issue with that, you know. And I believe that, you know, and in terms of, terms of the DIY arts movement and culture, you know, it needs to be respected, you know? And I've, and I'm no stranger to, back in the '90s, you know, those, those places and those parties and that, and that, and that atmosphere.
Mm-hmm. I, I, I thrived and, you know, lived in that as well. So it, it, you know, and, and, and it needs to be respected, but at the same time, you know, where do you draw the line with fire life safety and where do these organizations get the resources t- to do these improvements, you know? And that- Right ... and that, and that's a conversation that I think needs to happen, and these are, you know, and, and, and these are resources that need to be made available. You know, it doesn't mean that... A space just might need some exit lights. It might need a fire alarm. You know, it might need some fire doors, you know?
Right. We're not talking about major things. A lot of this stuff has to do with paperwork. Right. A lot of it has to do with, you know, filling out the, the, the proper applications and being able to navigate that stuff. Well, well, guess what? A lot of people can't, so they hire architects. Well, that costs money.
That costs a lot of money. You know? And it, and it- Well, and so what is the best way for, other than reaching out to you directly- Yeah
... what's the best way for an organization to sort of navigate that? Well, currently it's been people like myself or, you know, others that are f- familiar with these processes, whether that's in the architecture or the construction industry, to sort of reach out the contacts that we have at the city, try to make introductions, and try to, you know, be proactive about it. You know, a lot of times what ends up, what ends up happening is, you know, they throw a party or- Somebody gets, you know, shitty or whatever, and they end up, uh, you know, there's a complaint or somebody wants to, you know- Sue somebody ... whatever the case is. And so next thing you know, you got a, you got the fire department or you got, you know, code enforcement showing up. And a lot of people don't know how to navigate that process, and it's scary. You know?
Right. A lot of people don't wanna deal with it. Well, 'cause that guy shows up, and you automatically assume, "Oh, they're gonna shut us down." Oh, I still get-
Which, and that's not their goal. Their goal is to make sure- My stomach still turns to knots when they show up. Right. And I, and I know we don't have much to worry about, but still, yeah.
Right. Could be, it, it could be a very intimidating process, but, you know, hiding and avoiding the process is, is essentially what ended up happening in Oakland. You know, it was reported that, that, that, you know, Ion had, Derek I believe his name is, you know, had, had multiple, you know, violations and was ignoring things and, you know, I... And the story quite hasn't come out yet, but that's the wrong approach. I've certainly utilized the go ahead and do it and beg for forgiveness later- Right ... you know, approach, and that, and that certainly, you know, works.
But that's in terms of getting a permit. That's not- Sure. Yeah ... you're certainly not trying to, you're not trying to do anything wrong. You're just- Yeah
... trying to avoid going through the entire process. Or it's, you know, or some people that's, it creates a lot of anxiety. Okay. There's a lot of things like that in society, you know? Any kind of compliance. I mean, it could be income taxes. It could be running a business. I mean, you know, I'm sure you and I have known many people over the years that have tried to, you know, start something up, and then, you know, it, it may be popular or successful, but they end up with all sorts of back-end issues, you know, accounting or taxes or things of that nature, and all of these things can be very-
Well, and sometimes you don't- ... stressful ... I know as a business owner, I found out six months into opening a place, oh, there's this entire tax I was unaware that I had- Sure
... to pay. Oh, yeah. Thank God I had an accountant to, like, guide me through that process. Oh, yeah.
But there's a point, I think, in any young person's life that isn't receiving a whole lot of financial support from their parents or from whomever, where you get bills and you just don't open them. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. And, and that's sort of- 'Cause I'm still guilty of that, but yeah.
That's what you're talking about in terms of all the permitting and, you know- Yeah ... going through all the, the regulations. I mean, how many staff members do you guys have? Well, I've got, uh, I've got three office staff. We have a, we have a full-time accountant. We have a leasing manager, and then we have an office assistant/events, uh, art, uh, coordinator who also does the, the Facebook and the, the marketing-
Mm-hmm ... and, and coordinating the, the shows and that sort of thing. So that's, you know- And that's not even including the maintenance guys that you guys- Yeah. We, we have a construction staff of about a dozen, and-
Full-time ... full-time, and then the restaurant employs probably 45 people. That's a crazy big operation. Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah.
Yeah. Not everybody needs to strive for that or, or anything like that, and I think, you know, and, and going back to sort of respecting the different cultures, you know, within the arts community, you know, a lot of people don't want that stuff, you know? And a lot of people, you know- Don't want what stuff? Well, well, they don't want the big staffs or they don't want the, uh, you know, they don't want the size of the operation and the, and the headaches that can come with that. So-
Right ... which I, which I completely understand. Uh, you know, part of the other thing too that's sort of prevalent within, within some of these, some of these other, uh, cultures, I guess, within the, within the arts community is there, there could be a sense of re- you know, resistance to wanting to conform to those things. And, and that, and I could certainly understand that and I could respect that, um- Not wanting to operate within the quote unquote system, you mean? Sure.
Okay. You know, and, and, you know, the, and, and I think that, you know, there's, there's, there's a trend there with that as well, but like Oakland, you know, there needs to be, you know, there just has to be, you know, you just can't operate a space that isn't safe, you know? And that- Right ... and that was an example of that. So where does, how does that, how does, how do those two things meet? I don't know. You know? But I think that they're, you know, part of the, you know, I think what, what could happen immediately to keep spaces from, from at least being shut down or closing-
Mm-hmm ... particularly here in Columbus, and I'm not saying that, that anyone's in danger of that. I, I, I, I haven't spoken with anybody or know of any or have any of that kind of information, but if there are issues, you know, how do we get these people compliant? How do we get these spaces compliant? You know, the minimum that at least would be required, and that, that's something that I'm, I'm certainly interested in trying to pursue and, you know, keep that conversation rolling. Is there a larger group... Uh, obviously everybody sort of talks to each other. You know Adam. I know Adam. You know, we're aware of all the, the spaces and the people that live or work there, and, you know, is there, though, a formal group of people having a conversation about this? Because I know that, you know, the fire department at this point is going around and sort of- Oh, that came out today. Yeah.
Right. They're going around and they're saying, "Hey, we see that this event is happening," or, "Hey, we know that you guys exist." Mm-hmm. Uh, and are trying to sort of be proactive about it, which I think is a great thing that they should be doing, but is there a formal, should there be a formal group that sort of guides people through this process of being code compliant and, and ha- and doing sort of the minimum to- Sure
... to one, be compliant, and two, more importantly, be safe? Yeah, I think there... I, I'm not aware of any group per se that exists, but I think that there should be a sort of a collective of, of people that, you know, I mean, if folks are interested, you know, I think that would be fantastic. Uh, you know, but it also falls on the hands of the space. I mean, they have to be willing to, to do these things. To participate in that process. You know? You know, and whether it's, whether it's, you know... I mean, you know, let's say some space needs $5,000 worth of exit signs, emergency lighting, and panic bars on their doors, you know.
Mm-hmm. Where are they gonna get the resources for that, you know? Right. And I think that, you know, if there's, if there's grant opportunities, you know, there's various organizations in town that, you know, that are already providing financial resources for artists and also collectives. So, you know, maybe something like that is, is- You know, could be an opportunity to at least in the meantime, you know, guide folks through, get the zoning right, get the bare bone fire light safety stuff addressed and continue to operate and stay open and not be the financial burden that these things can be. I mean, we've spent probably six, seven hundred thousand dollars on these things at four hundred over the years, you know, and it's-
But it's also, that's a testament to the size of the space and to- Oh, of course. Of course, yeah ... and to the use of the space as well. Yeah, yeah. It's very, you know, in terms of its intensity, but it- it- it's, but it's not cheap, you know? And, and I think that, uh, you know, they're, they're, you know, this is, this is a, you know, this is an opportunity for spaces to, to try to at le- you know, because it's, you know, the, as I like to call it, you know, it's, it's unfortunate what's happened and I'm not trying to minimize anything, but you know, the, the hysteria is, is, is, is, is started, you know?
Yeah. And it's within these, within these spaces and, and, uh, it's, you know, it's about time maybe that some of this stuff was addressed as well, so. Right. Are there things that the city can do to make it easier for these spaces? Sure. They, they have been, the city of Columbus has been a huge help for not only four hundred West Rich, but for multiple other organizations in town, not just in Franklinton, but all over the city and, and there are folks that are willing to help any way they can t- to streamline the process and to be rational about these things and to, and to, you know, make rational decisions. Building Services has been, you know, tremendous in terms of, you know, over the years they've been very supportive in what we do and sure, did I, did I run and hide from a lot of those people for years? Of course I did, you know, but-
Well, because you didn't know what the nature of that relationship was gonna be. Yeah, it was... Yeah, I mean, I've, you know, I mean, I've, I've been doing construction for, for years all over the city and, you know, it was, it was always kind of, you always wanted to hide from that stuff but, but it's really not anything you really have to hide from. You know? As long as you talk to these folks and you're trying to make an honest effort and you're not trying to hide anything- Mm-hmm ... it, it really does... Y- you would be surprised how, how easy it is.
Well frankly, they are there to assist. They are not, I, I mean- Oh yeah ... they're not there to throw up roadblocks. They're just there to make sure everything is done correctly. Oh yeah, yeah. That's, that's true. And you know, and they have, you know, and, and there is a lot of discretion. You know? It's if, if they come into a space and see that you have lighting and some fire extinguishers and you know, things of that nature, you know, they're not gonna really bust your balls about a lot of this stuff and that's, that's-
They're gonna say, "Hey, maybe you wanna mount that fire extinguisher on the wall." But that's it. Yeah or, you know, whatever the case is. Uh, yeah, it's, it's, you know, I think that, you know, speaking with the fire department this morning, you know, they're not, they're not looking to go around and, and shut anybody down. They're just trying to make sure that everybody's safe and I, and I can, I have nothing but respect for that, so. Chris, thank you so much for your time. Uh, have a good holiday. Thank you, Tim, and, and hopefully these, these type of conversations can continue and maybe spark some interest in trying to assist some of the other collectives in town.
Yeah. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, your contacts, your enemies, your favorite artist. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.
Transcript7,012 words
Tim Fulton Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are taking a piece of national news and looking for the local perspective on it. On December 2nd this year, uh, at approximately 11:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, a fire broke out in a warehouse known as Ghost Ship that was converted into an artist collective and into unpermitted dwelling units in the Fruitvale neighborhood of Oakland, California. At the time of the fire, the warehouse was hosting a concert without a permit. A total of 36 people were killed in the fire. It was the deadliest in the history of Oakland and the deadliest in California since the 1906 San Francisco earthquake. With that terrible and unfortunate event in mind, I sat down for a conversation with Chris Sherman, uh, the Director of Development of Columbus' largest artist studio collective, 400 West Rich. We, uh, talk about the history of the building, the uses of the building now, how they keep their tenants and their guests safe, the importance of that safety and the importance of having an ongoing conversation about this. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by Art Makes Columbus, Columbus Makes Art, featuring stories about our city's incredible artists, stories full of inspiration, challenge, passion and success. For videos, articles, an up-to-the-minute calendar of events and an artist directory, visit columbusmakesart.com, the resource for all things arts and culture in the capital city. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Chris Sherman, the Director of Development for 400 West Rich, the artist studio and event space in Franklinton. We're here on an, a negative occasion, recording this the week after the fire at the Ghost Ship in Oakland, California. Just sort of want to address the concerns of the community regarding artist communities and whether-
Chris Sherman Mm-hmm
Tim Fulton ... they are safe. First, as an introduction to the space, Chris, can you tell us what, what is 400 West Rich?
Chris Sherman 400 West Rich is, uh, essentially a, a 95,000 square foot building that, uh, houses many different uses and disciplines under one roof. Um, we have, I believe, I have to ask my leasing manager about this, I believe we have 107 art studios. Uh, uh, we also have, uh, another 17 units on the second floor which are used for artists, uh, some, some, some folks in technology. Uh, we have an open workspace on the second floor as well, which has a whole host of tenants. Uh-
Tim Fulton That's a shared co-working space basically.
Chris Sherman Uh, essentially, yes. And, uh, and on the first floor, uh, in the front of the building, we have Strong Water Food & Spirits, which is a, after the recent addition this summer, uh, it's, uh, an 18,000 square foot event space restaurant facility. So full service.
Tim Fulton Somebody can walk in off the street and go and get a drink and have dinner. There is also an event space where I know you guys have hosted a myriad of weddings and corporate events, fashion shows, presentations, I think a couple of roasts.
Chris Sherman Couple of roasts. Uh, we used to do monthly dance parties, uh, but the, the parties, uh, essentially outgrew the space. Primarily our focus is, uh, vendor shows, craft shows, weddings, uh, corporate parties, holiday parties.
Tim Fulton What is the capacity for that event space?
Chris Sherman Uh, the main event space holds 300.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman We, we have an additional event space that was just completed over the summer, which, uh, has another, uh, maximum occupancy of 150. We have a patio that we also, uh, officially, uh, license as part of the event space, uh, which, uh, also holds another 150. And then the front restaurant, uh, has an occupancy of 150 as well.
Tim Fulton Just in the way that you're talking, it's fair to say that you guys do this correctly. You gu- It is, uh, you know the occupancy of the spa- or the-
Chris Sherman Sure
Tim Fulton ... appropriate licensed occupancy of the space. You have fire suppression systems. It is, it is a quote unquote safe space.
Chris Sherman It is. Um, we, uh, actually had the fire department there today.
Tim Fulton How convenient for you.
Chris Sherman How, how convenient. Um, but you know, everything, everything, you know, obviously checked out. Uh, they're going around, uh, checking on all the spaces in town apparently. But, uh, so when you, when you say correctly, um, sure. Uh, yeah, you could say that we obviously operate, uh, in a code compliant, uh, uh, you know, manner and we obviously treat all of our, uh, situations there as such. But you know, we were fortunate enough that, you know, the building obviously had a lot of existing systems in it that al- that allowed us to do what, what we do.
Tim Fulton What was the building before it was 400 West Rich?
Chris Sherman It, it was a manufacturing facility. It was originally built as a sanitary manufacturing factory, uh, early 20th century. Uh-
Tim Fulton Like toilets or?
Chris Sherman Uh, porcelain casting. Uh, uh- ... casting toilets, tubs, sinks.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman Things of that nature. Water fountains. And then, you know, the, the area was a hub for refrigeration, ice houses. Uh, the, uh, Spaghetti Warehouse was a large ice house here in town. And, uh, we, uh, well I shouldn't say we, but, uh, David Ebinger who was the, uh, who had the porcelain casting facility realized that small commercial and residential refrigeration was becoming more accessible in terms of technology. So he ended up switching over and they had a huge R&D department and they developed the electric dehumidifier, the electric cooled, uh, water fountain, the water cooler.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman Um, they, they had, uh, a-
Tim Fulton They didn't invent them
Chris Sherman They did
Tim Fulton Okay
Chris Sherman Those were all developed and invented... Well, the refrigerated-
Tim Fulton Versions, versions of them
Chris Sherman ... ver- versions of those-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... were developed within the building. They quickly outgrew the space by 1950. Uh, became Ebco Manufacturing. One of their product lines was Oasis, which is a common sort of household name in terms of drinking fountains.
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman Uh, they, uh, they ended up moving out to Whitehall. They were off Hamilton Road. They had a large facility out there basically on the s- southeast corner of the airport. And then in the early 2000s, they shipped the plant off to Mexico and they ended up... They're no longer here in Columbus. So, uh, after the 1950s, because it was set up for refrigeration, it became a perfect opportunity for Harvey Swensen, who invented the soft serve ice cream, uh, equipment to have a more, uh, Midwest located, uh, factory, uh, to produce his soft serve ice cream equipment. And they were in that building until 1980.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman Uh, they were called Sweden Freezer. And, uh, and the owner was q- a quite interesting man. He was a diplomat from the US to China during the 1970s for Richard Nixon. Uh, he also invented a lot of the equipment and mechanics that were used in the, uh, di- in, in, in the kidney dialysis machine. So yeah, so that, that, that was pretty interesting there.
Tim Fulton So the building certainly has a, a rich history.
Chris Sherman It, it, it does. It was purchased in 1985 by Robert Eichholz, who, uh, who we had purchased the building from, uh, in 2010. Uh, Robert Eichholz is an internationally known glassblower. Uh, he's kinda slowed down over the years in terms of his production.
Tim Fulton Just 'cause he's getting older.
Chris Sherman Uh, yeah, getting older and, and, and whatnot. But he, uh, uh, had his studio in the building for, you know, 30 years and he, uh-
Tim Fulton He stayed there after you purchased it too, right?
Chris Sherman He... Yeah, he did. He was, he was a tenant essentially of ours, uh, up until 2014, uh, when, when he decided to open up another, uh, s- space over by the airport. And it was, it was kind of a combination of what we're talking about. I mean, his studio was old.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman And he has 12 furnaces in there and employees, and he hadn't upgraded anything in decades. And I was just like, "And the roof's leaking," and I can't... I could never work on the roof because of the ventilation that's constantly running, and it was just a, a, a big hassle. And I-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Chris Sherman ... you know, here I am collecting water on the floor upstairs so it doesn't rain in, into the restaurant, you know? And, and the fire department, you know, was started asking me questions about him, and I said, "Uh, sure, you know, let me, let me see what I can do." And that, and that's when he made the decision to go ahead and purchase another building and build a brand new facility for himself. And he has, he has the means to do that, uh, which is, you know, which is, which is another part of the conversation. But-
Tim Fulton Okay
Chris Sherman ... um, but at any rate, at, in a, in a nutshell, that's sort of the history of the space. So-
Tim Fulton And so who owns it now?
Chris Sherman Uh, Lance Robbins, uh, who is the, uh, principal of his real estate development company. Uh, Brick Investment Corporation, um, is, is an interesting guy. I, I've been in the neighborhood since 2004. I have a small shop.
Tim Fulton He's an investor and leaves you to sort of run things, correct?
Chris Sherman Sure. I mean, you know, the man owns a lot of property in Venice Beach, Hollywood, Silver Lake, Koreatown. Had purchased this property in Los Angeles back in the '70s and the '80s. A lot of those neighborhoods have changed. He's sort of pseudo-retired, but he decided to s- to, to do some commercial redevelopment stuff in other cities. And, and he first set his sights on Providence, Rhode Island, Pawtucket specifically, uh, where he has a, a half a million square foot mill there called Hope Artisan Village. And he's got a, a, a bunch of galleries and mostly commercial space. Uh, some restaurants, a large music venue there, uh, rents from, from him as well.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman And he has a bunch of apartments there. He, he, he converted a, a, another mill into 250 units. Uh, and, uh-
Tim Fulton So he had done this before.
Chris Sherman He had done this in the early 2000s.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman Uh, and then his daughter was at Antioch out in Yellow Springs, and she said, "Hey," you know, she was coming to Columbus to take photographs of the buildings. Uh, ruin porn, as I like to call it. And, uh, she said, "Hey, Dad, you should take a look at this stuff. Columbus, its market is fantastic. You know, it's a great place." So he did. He came and, uh, introduced himself, and I got to know the guy basically 'cause my shop kind of sits in the middle of his sort of target area in terms of what he was looking to purchase.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman And, uh, we got to know each other over the years. Uh, at the time, myself, Jim Sweeney, Sarah Weinstock, Nikos Rutkowski, several others were doing, uh, art events in the neighborhood through a nonprofit we had started called the Franklinton Arts District, or FAD for short.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman And we, uh... He was a big sponsor of that. He, he donated, uh, an, an old church, uh, which is currently the Vanderelli Room, um, for our use. He would donate money for Urban Scrawl, Go West events, things of that nature. So when he finally closed on the property at 401 West Town or 400 West Rich, I said, "What are you doing with it?" And he said, "I don't know." And I said, "Well, we should do studios 'cause there's a huge demand for that here in town." And-
Tim Fulton Right. Well, and remind me what was sort of available at the time.
Chris Sherman Well, you had Milo, you had, you had Junction View.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman Um, you know, there were, there were things going on over at Millworks. Um-
Tim Fulton But not sort of to the scale that you're talking about.
Chris Sherman No.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman No, no. And, uh, and, you know, basically, you know, uh, with, with being involved with folks over at Junction View, and folks at Junction View were involved with FAD, and I'd gotten to know a lot of those people over the years. We essentially used that as a model to sort of c- uh, create the, the, the affordable studio space, uh, in Franklinton. Uh, it was, it was announced, uh, shortly after, uh, we were looking to start our project that, uh, Nationwide Realty was, was going to be basically demolishing Junction View.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman And that, that helped sort of initially fill some of our space. Um-
Tim Fulton Okay
Chris Sherman ... uh, out of the ashes rose, I guess, 400 West Rich.
Tim Fulton Well, because Junction View... So Junction View closed, and Junction View was a huge space. And then Adam Burlett took a s- like, basically a subsection of those artists and started Taco Cat.
Chris Sherman Mm-hmm.
Tim Fulton Now he's opening Block Fort in downtown. But-
Chris Sherman Which is open. Yeah
Tim Fulton ... so you, so you guys did get some of those, the leftover artists, basically.
Chris Sherman Yeah, there were, there were folks that were looking to move, uh, preemptively prior to the... You know, they, they didn't wanna be in a rush. Uh-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... uh, obviously. I mean, they had, they... I believe they had 44 s- uh, units, and Taco Cat was maybe 15 or something.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman So it was a much smaller, uh, cooperative space. And, uh, so yeah, I mean, we were able to You know, essentially sort of rehouse a lot of people, and a lot of those tenants are still with us today, so.
Tim Fulton Talk about s- what amenities you guys have there at the space for artists.
Chris Sherman Well, I mean, you know, in terms of a, of, of a basic studio space, uh, you know, your rent includes, you know, the electricity, the heat, uh, the use of the Wi-Fi. You're included in any kind of show or event that we do.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman Uh, you're included in the promotion, the marketing. Um, we also have, you know, uh, lots of open, uh, areas and corridors which we use as, uh, sort of art gallery space. There's opportunities for artists to do shows, and just essentially participate in, uh, in, in everything that we do. Um-
Tim Fulton What's the cost on a, as you say, basic studio?
Chris Sherman A basic studio start at anywhere from 90 cents a square foot per month, and if you want something that's, uh, large or if you want something that has, uh, maybe full-height walls, you know, our d- most of the walls only go up about eight feet. Um-
Tim Fulton Okay
Chris Sherman ... but if you wanna be in a more private area, uh, a lot of those units have, uh, central air. They've got, uh, centralized HVAC, a much more robust internet service. The, the entire building features fiber optic, uh, which has been fantastic. But, uh, so I mean, there are different levels, you know, and then of course some of those units can go up to a dollar fifty, dollar sixty-five a square foot per month.
Tim Fulton And for those that aren't familiar with that pricing, what does that mean per month?
Chris Sherman I mean, you know, if... Well, for a unit that's, uh, you know, 500 square feet, you know, do the math. You know, it's 7, 750 a month, you know.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman But that's a, that's a pretty large space.
Tim Fulton Absolutely.
Chris Sherman And that includes all of the, uh, you know, like, again, uh, the electric, the gas, the heat, the Wi-Fi, the whole nine. So for a lot of folks it's been... You know, that's why we stay full, because if you look at other options, whether it's downtown or, or, you know, other spaces, it's, uh, it's pretty affordable. And at the same time, you're, you're also connected to everybody else in the building, you know?
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman There's a tremendous amount of, of, you know-
Tim Fulton It's a network
Chris Sherman ... of networking and, you know, in- inclusion that, you know, that has been generated.
Tim Fulton And we should be, because we, of the reason that we're here, the occasion that we're here, we should explicitly state no one lives at 400 West Rich.
Chris Sherman Oh, yeah, no. The, the, uh, residential use is strictly, uh, prohibited.
Tim Fulton But the tenants do come and go as-
Chris Sherman They have, they have 24-hour access, you know, and, and, and I, I certainly keep my eyes, you know, uh, you know, I, I see what, what cars are there at night-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... you know, things of that nature. So there are ways for me-
Tim Fulton And you go and make sure to, that the-
Chris Sherman Yeah, and there's-
Tim Fulton ... the lights are on there
Chris Sherman ... yeah, and there's, yeah, there's, there's ways for me to, you know, track activity and things of that nature. I also try not to be like a, you know, a, a, a burden or some sort of strict, you know, crazy-
Tim Fulton You're... No
Chris Sherman ... helicopter manager, you know?
Tim Fulton Right. It's not your job to be an authority figure there.
Chris Sherman Yeah. And, and, and we don't, and it's... W- we rarely have any, you know, issues regarding any of that stuff. So it's... Yeah. We've, we've had no issues in terms of any of, of that.
Tim Fulton So there are certainly art studios in Columbus that are not up to code in terms of, you know, first of all, what goes on there in terms of having-
Chris Sherman Well, you have various different levels, I mean, but, you know, any kind of occupancy permit that, that is, uh, you know, geared towards assembly is, is, is a much stricter... You know, you're, you're, you're gonna have to adhere to much more strict, uh, building and, and code compliance than you would for maybe a, a, an, an artist manufacturing use group, uh-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Chris Sherman ... you know. So one of the things that, you know... And like I said before, you know, we were very fortunate that the building had an existing sprinkler system. I mean, that was a big... I mean, now we've spent a lot of money modifying it, fixing it-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... uh, updating it, things of that nature. Uh, but it, it, you know, it, it, it... We were very fortunate for that. And, you know, and when you mention other spaces, most of the spaces that I'm familiar with aren't really dangerous in terms of building or safety. It, it's, it's, it, it all kinda boils down to a zoning and paperwork issue.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman And that's where I think a lot of people need to get their stuff in order, and I've been con- and I've helped various other collectives in town over the course of the last couple of years, sort of helped guide them through that process, because I've gone through this myself.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman And, and I-
Tim Fulton Well, and it's one of those things that if you're setting out to... It, first of all, uh, it's a gigantic undertaking to do-
Chris Sherman Mm-hmm
Tim Fulton ... something like that. And also, when you set out to do it, you don't, I imagine, know what the hurdles are going to be.
Chris Sherman No, you don't, and that's why you have to hire professionals like architects and engineers to help, uh, create the plan and decipher the code and, and, and decipher the, you know, the OBC, you know, the, the Ohio Revised Building Code. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's, it could be very daunting. It could be brain damage at times. I mean, it's just, you know, you just, you just wanna run to the bar, you know-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... when you, when you're done with the day. And, uh, and it's a process that we were able to do in small phases. You know, we didn't build the entire building out at one time for various reasons. A, we don't have that kind of money, and, and, and B, it, it was... You know, as we start to occupy the building in phases, it creates more revenue, which helps work on the rest of the building.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman And then, then we decided to do the restaurant, which created a lot of revenue to continue to work on the building. And, and, and, uh, that's where it's really been key is sort of creating activities there that create capital for you to continue to build out the rest of the space. Um, the other part of it too is, is, you know, I don't really... I, I'm a, I'm a firm believer in sort of listening to the market and letting the market tell me what it wants. And, and to build the entire building out at one time and essentially try to inject people into it is, is not really the right way to go. You know, you end up backtracking. You end up tearing things out or making modifications based on, you know, the trends or the changes in the market or, or just based on the demand that you, that, that you are seeking or, you know, getting. So it, it's been... You know, that's, that's typically how we've always tried to take things, and it's been a very smart approach.
Tim Fulton Are you done with your plan at this point?
Chris Sherman 400 West Rich, the, the, the property there is, is, is all built out.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman That's, that's 100% complete. We have another studio space that's, uh, currently under construction- A little further down on Rich Street, about half a block away, and I have, uh, sort of paid tribute to the old manufacturing, uh, facility that was there. Uh, Chrome Edge was a brand that was, uh, that created, uh, sink rings, and l- laminate countertop trims, and stair nosing, and stair railings, and, you know, uh, carpet and flooring transition strips. It was an aluminum extrusion facility built during World War II, uh, and operated until the early 1980s.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman Uh, it was, uh, it did business all over the country. Um, after doing some, some, some research and finding things online, working with a historical, uh, uh, consultant here in town, uh, you know, we were able to sort of come up with a w- with a, a brand and an identity for that, for those, those u- th- those units called Chrome Edge Studios, and, um, we're looking to bring those online some- sometime in February.
Tim Fulton Great.
Chris Sherman Um, but that's been, again, a big... You know, converting these old factories into these new v- new uses poses lots of challenges. You know, uh, chopping the area up into smaller, smaller fire areas, you know?
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman You know, that way the building is, you know, becomes safer and you, and you could, you know, avoid having to do costly things like, you know, adding a suppression system where maybe one didn't exist.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman So you, you know, that, that building is a true, I believe, 2B in terms of a construction-type facility where it has a steel roof, concrete walls, and a concrete floor. There's really nothing in there that can burn, um, except for content.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman So it's, it's, uh, so that's been a very interesting project.
Tim Fulton What challenges at 400 do you guys still have in terms of just daily operations or in terms of perception of how you guys operate?
Chris Sherman Well-
Tim Fulton I mean, you are a for-profit business.
Chris Sherman Oh, yeah.
Tim Fulton I think that's important to point out.
Chris Sherman Yeah, it's... Oh, I still call it, I still like to ca- like to call us a non-profit. Guess there's just been no profit, but, uh- At any rate, that's 'cause, well, we just reinvest. You know, we just sort of, you know, pour everything back into the building, and that's great. You know, it's, it's, it's certainly... There is profit. It's just reinvested. So, but, uh, at any rate, the, uh, yeah, we're not like a registered non-profit. Uh, so we, we, we don't utilize, uh, grants or, or any kind of, uh, uh, assistance in that, in, in that fashion. And, and, and that's, and that's good because it, it leaves opportunities for other people in town to utilize those, those, those kind of programs and resources.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman So-
Tim Fulton And you do house a couple of non-profits.
Chris Sherman We do. We, we have the Ohio Art League, which is the oldest arts, uh, organization, I believe, in the state of Ohio.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman Uh, BESA, uh, Matthew Goldstein operates his, uh, his, his program out of the building. Uh, we have a few other tenants as well. The OSU Steam Factory on the second floor, basically a interdisciplinary group of, uh, professors and, uh, students that, that get together and create projects and, and do research and things. So it... So, you know, in, in terms of our operation and perception, yeah, we're not a non-profit. You know, we get that kind of stuff all the time. You know, we're not... You know, there's a lot of different scenes in town, you know? And, and that's something to kinda talk about, too, and it kinda rolls into perception.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman Particularly since this very tragic, unfortunate fire in, in Oakland at, at Ghost Ship was... You know, I, I started kind of... I, I got, you know, several different types of messages. It was hysteria.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman It was... Some folks were, you know, concerned about the, the facilities. Uh, I had tenants that, you know, "Well, I hope we have sprinklers." And then, you know, some people, "All you gotta do is look up." And I'm like, "Well, some people don't know these things," you know? So-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... so, you know, so, so there... You know, I was getting all kinds of messages and, uh, you know. And then, then o- one of the messages I got on a Facebook post I made was I was essentially sort of being, you know, attacked for the, you know, type of facility that we operate. And there's, there, there seems to be a, you know... You know, artists can be artists and, you know, we all have our little personality quirks, but there, you know, there, you know, there are, there are several different scenes. And I think when you, when you look at, you know, the different scenes within the arts community as a whole, we could be viewed by younger, more f- you know, DIY or fringe art- art kids as, like, sort of the commercialized space.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman You know? And, and, you know, and that's fine. You know, I don't necess-
Tim Fulton Well, 'cause it does cost money to be there.
Chris Sherman I... Yeah.
Tim Fulton You have a-
Chris Sherman Yeah
Tim Fulton ... a lease. You have an actual agreement.
Chris Sherman Yeah, and I don't have an issue with that, you know. And I believe that, you know, and in terms of, terms of the DIY arts movement and culture, you know, it needs to be respected, you know? And I've, and I'm no stranger to, back in the '90s, you know, those, those places and those parties and that, and that, and that atmosphere.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman I, I, I thrived and, you know, lived in that as well. So it, it, you know, and, and, and it needs to be respected, but at the same time, you know, where do you draw the line with fire life safety and where do these organizations get the resources t- to do these improvements, you know? And that-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... and that, and that's a conversation that I think needs to happen, and these are, you know, and, and, and these are resources that need to be made available. You know, it doesn't mean that... A space just might need some exit lights. It might need a fire alarm. You know, it might need some fire doors, you know?
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman We're not talking about major things. A lot of this stuff has to do with paperwork.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman A lot of it has to do with, you know, filling out the, the, the proper applications and being able to navigate that stuff. Well, well, guess what? A lot of people can't, so they hire architects. Well, that costs money.
Tim Fulton That costs a lot of money.
Chris Sherman You know? And it, and it-
Tim Fulton Well, and so what is the best way for, other than reaching out to you directly-
Chris Sherman Yeah
Tim Fulton ... what's the best way for an organization to sort of navigate that?
Chris Sherman Well, currently it's been people like myself or, you know, others that are f- familiar with these processes, whether that's in the architecture or the construction industry, to sort of reach out the contacts that we have at the city, try to make introductions, and try to, you know, be proactive about it. You know, a lot of times what ends up, what ends up happening is, you know, they throw a party or- Somebody gets, you know, shitty or whatever, and they end up, uh, you know, there's a complaint or somebody wants to, you know-
Tim Fulton Sue somebody
Chris Sherman ... whatever the case is. And so next thing you know, you got a, you got the fire department or you got, you know, code enforcement showing up. And a lot of people don't know how to navigate that process, and it's scary. You know?
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman A lot of people don't wanna deal with it.
Tim Fulton Well, 'cause that guy shows up, and you automatically assume, "Oh, they're gonna shut us down."
Chris Sherman Oh, I still get-
Tim Fulton Which, and that's not their goal. Their goal is to make sure-
Chris Sherman My stomach still turns to knots when they show up.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman And I, and I know we don't have much to worry about, but still, yeah.
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman Could be, it, it could be a very intimidating process, but, you know, hiding and avoiding the process is, is essentially what ended up happening in Oakland. You know, it was reported that, that, that, you know, Ion had, Derek I believe his name is, you know, had, had multiple, you know, violations and was ignoring things and, you know, I... And the story quite hasn't come out yet, but that's the wrong approach. I've certainly utilized the go ahead and do it and beg for forgiveness later-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... you know, approach, and that, and that certainly, you know, works.
Tim Fulton But that's in terms of getting a permit. That's not-
Chris Sherman Sure. Yeah
Tim Fulton ... you're certainly not trying to, you're not trying to do anything wrong. You're just-
Chris Sherman Yeah
Tim Fulton ... trying to avoid going through the entire process.
Chris Sherman Or it's, you know, or some people that's, it creates a lot of anxiety.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman There's a lot of things like that in society, you know? Any kind of compliance. I mean, it could be income taxes. It could be running a business. I mean, you know, I'm sure you and I have known many people over the years that have tried to, you know, start something up, and then, you know, it, it may be popular or successful, but they end up with all sorts of back-end issues, you know, accounting or taxes or things of that nature, and all of these things can be very-
Tim Fulton Well, and sometimes you don't-
Chris Sherman ... stressful
Tim Fulton ... I know as a business owner, I found out six months into opening a place, oh, there's this entire tax I was unaware that I had-
Chris Sherman Sure
Tim Fulton ... to pay.
Chris Sherman Oh, yeah.
Tim Fulton Thank God I had an accountant to, like, guide me through that process.
Chris Sherman Oh, yeah.
Tim Fulton But there's a point, I think, in any young person's life that isn't receiving a whole lot of financial support from their parents or from whomever, where you get bills and you just don't open them.
Chris Sherman Oh, yeah. Well, yeah.
Tim Fulton And, and that's sort of-
Chris Sherman 'Cause I'm still guilty of that, but yeah.
Tim Fulton That's what you're talking about in terms of all the permitting and, you know-
Chris Sherman Yeah
Tim Fulton ... going through all the, the regulations. I mean, how many staff members do you guys have?
Chris Sherman Well, I've got, uh, I've got three office staff. We have a, we have a full-time accountant. We have a leasing manager, and then we have an office assistant/events, uh, art, uh, coordinator who also does the, the Facebook and the, the marketing-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Chris Sherman ... and, and coordinating the, the shows and that sort of thing. So that's, you know-
Tim Fulton And that's not even including the maintenance guys that you guys-
Chris Sherman Yeah. We, we have a construction staff of about a dozen, and-
Tim Fulton Full-time
Chris Sherman ... full-time, and then the restaurant employs probably 45 people.
Tim Fulton That's a crazy big operation.
Chris Sherman Yeah, yeah. It's, yeah.
Tim Fulton Yeah.
Chris Sherman Not everybody needs to strive for that or, or anything like that, and I think, you know, and, and going back to sort of respecting the different cultures, you know, within the arts community, you know, a lot of people don't want that stuff, you know? And a lot of people, you know-
Tim Fulton Don't want what stuff?
Chris Sherman Well, well, they don't want the big staffs or they don't want the, uh, you know, they don't want the size of the operation and the, and the headaches that can come with that. So-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... which I, which I completely understand. Uh, you know, part of the other thing too that's sort of prevalent within, within some of these, some of these other, uh, cultures, I guess, within the, within the arts community is there, there could be a sense of re- you know, resistance to wanting to conform to those things. And, and that, and I could certainly understand that and I could respect that, um-
Tim Fulton Not wanting to operate within the quote unquote system, you mean?
Chris Sherman Sure.
Tim Fulton Okay.
Chris Sherman You know, and, and, you know, the, and, and I think that, you know, there's, there's, there's a trend there with that as well, but like Oakland, you know, there needs to be, you know, there just has to be, you know, you just can't operate a space that isn't safe, you know? And that-
Tim Fulton Right
Chris Sherman ... and that was an example of that. So where does, how does that, how does, how do those two things meet? I don't know. You know? But I think that they're, you know, part of the, you know, I think what, what could happen immediately to keep spaces from, from at least being shut down or closing-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Chris Sherman ... particularly here in Columbus, and I'm not saying that, that anyone's in danger of that. I, I, I, I haven't spoken with anybody or know of any or have any of that kind of information, but if there are issues, you know, how do we get these people compliant? How do we get these spaces compliant? You know, the minimum that at least would be required, and that, that's something that I'm, I'm certainly interested in trying to pursue and, you know, keep that conversation rolling.
Tim Fulton Is there a larger group... Uh, obviously everybody sort of talks to each other. You know Adam. I know Adam. You know, we're aware of all the, the spaces and the people that live or work there, and, you know, is there, though, a formal group of people having a conversation about this? Because I know that, you know, the fire department at this point is going around and sort of-
Chris Sherman Oh, that came out today. Yeah.
Tim Fulton Right. They're going around and they're saying, "Hey, we see that this event is happening," or, "Hey, we know that you guys exist."
Chris Sherman Mm-hmm.
Tim Fulton Uh, and are trying to sort of be proactive about it, which I think is a great thing that they should be doing, but is there a formal, should there be a formal group that sort of guides people through this process of being code compliant and, and ha- and doing sort of the minimum to-
Chris Sherman Sure
Tim Fulton ... to one, be compliant, and two, more importantly, be safe?
Chris Sherman Yeah, I think there... I, I'm not aware of any group per se that exists, but I think that there should be a sort of a collective of, of people that, you know, I mean, if folks are interested, you know, I think that would be fantastic. Uh, you know, but it also falls on the hands of the space. I mean, they have to be willing to, to do these things.
Tim Fulton To participate in that process.
Chris Sherman You know? You know, and whether it's, whether it's, you know... I mean, you know, let's say some space needs $5,000 worth of exit signs, emergency lighting, and panic bars on their doors, you know.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Chris Sherman Where are they gonna get the resources for that, you know?
Tim Fulton Right.
Chris Sherman And I think that, you know, if there's, if there's grant opportunities, you know, there's various organizations in town that, you know, that are already providing financial resources for artists and also collectives. So, you know, maybe something like that is, is- You know, could be an opportunity to at least in the meantime, you know, guide folks through, get the zoning right, get the bare bone fire light safety stuff addressed and continue to operate and stay open and not be the financial burden that these things can be. I mean, we've spent probably six, seven hundred thousand dollars on these things at four hundred over the years, you know, and it's-
Tim Fulton But it's also, that's a testament to the size of the space and to-
Chris Sherman Oh, of course. Of course, yeah
Tim Fulton ... and to the use of the space as well.
Chris Sherman Yeah, yeah. It's very, you know, in terms of its intensity, but it- it- it's, but it's not cheap, you know? And, and I think that, uh, you know, they're, they're, you know, this is, this is a, you know, this is an opportunity for spaces to, to try to at le- you know, because it's, you know, the, as I like to call it, you know, it's, it's unfortunate what's happened and I'm not trying to minimize anything, but you know, the, the hysteria is, is, is, is, is started, you know?
Tim Fulton Yeah.
Chris Sherman And it's within these, within these spaces and, and, uh, it's, you know, it's about time maybe that some of this stuff was addressed as well, so.
Tim Fulton Right. Are there things that the city can do to make it easier for these spaces?
Chris Sherman Sure. They, they have been, the city of Columbus has been a huge help for not only four hundred West Rich, but for multiple other organizations in town, not just in Franklinton, but all over the city and, and there are folks that are willing to help any way they can t- to streamline the process and to be rational about these things and to, and to, you know, make rational decisions. Building Services has been, you know, tremendous in terms of, you know, over the years they've been very supportive in what we do and sure, did I, did I run and hide from a lot of those people for years? Of course I did, you know, but-
Tim Fulton Well, because you didn't know what the nature of that relationship was gonna be.
Chris Sherman Yeah, it was... Yeah, I mean, I've, you know, I mean, I've, I've been doing construction for, for years all over the city and, you know, it was, it was always kind of, you always wanted to hide from that stuff but, but it's really not anything you really have to hide from. You know? As long as you talk to these folks and you're trying to make an honest effort and you're not trying to hide anything-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Chris Sherman ... it, it really does... Y- you would be surprised how, how easy it is.
Tim Fulton Well frankly, they are there to assist. They are not, I, I mean-
Chris Sherman Oh yeah
Tim Fulton ... they're not there to throw up roadblocks. They're just there to make sure everything is done correctly.
Chris Sherman Oh yeah, yeah. That's, that's true. And you know, and they have, you know, and, and there is a lot of discretion. You know? It's if, if they come into a space and see that you have lighting and some fire extinguishers and you know, things of that nature, you know, they're not gonna really bust your balls about a lot of this stuff and that's, that's-
Tim Fulton They're gonna say, "Hey, maybe you wanna mount that fire extinguisher on the wall." But that's it.
Chris Sherman Yeah or, you know, whatever the case is. Uh, yeah, it's, it's, you know, I think that, you know, speaking with the fire department this morning, you know, they're not, they're not looking to go around and, and shut anybody down. They're just trying to make sure that everybody's safe and I, and I can, I have nothing but respect for that, so.
Tim Fulton Chris, thank you so much for your time. Uh, have a good holiday.
Chris Sherman Thank you, Tim, and, and hopefully these, these type of conversations can continue and maybe spark some interest in trying to assist some of the other collectives in town.
Tim Fulton Yeah. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, your contacts, your enemies, your favorite artist. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.