Ohio Capital Journal

Tim Fulton 0:12Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, in a special live event, I sat down with David DeWitt, the editor of the newly formed Ohio Capital Journal. We discussed this new outlet, the nonprofit news model, how they're trying to prove their value, the importance of nonpartisan news but allowing for partisan commentary, what success is gonna look like for them, and the importance of journalists and journalism supporting each other. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with David DeWitt, the editor of the Ohio Capital Journal. David, how are you?

David DeWitt 1:23I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.

Tim Fulton 1:25No, absolutely. So tell us about the Ohio Capital Journal.

David DeWitt 1:28Uh, so the Ohio Capital Journal is a newly launched nonprofit, uh, state government news outlet, and what we're doing is we're connecting Ohioans to their state government by reporting on politics and policy. We've got three reporters in the state house, and we're offering all of our content. It's free of advertising. It's free to readers. It's free of paywalls, free of surveys, and it's also free to republish by other publications-

Tim Fulton 1:55Okay

David DeWitt 1:55... that want to use our content. And so the idea is that as state house news bureaus have dwindled, as newspapers have consolidated over the years, we wanna put experienced journalists back into the state capital covering the government, reporting for the people, showing how government impacts people's lives.

Tim Fulton 2:11And it's only been around for, like, six months or so, right?

David DeWitt 2:14Actually only two months.

Tim Fulton 2:15Two months.

David DeWitt 2:15I was hired six months ago, and then I had to dream this whole thing up.

Tim Fulton 2:18Okay.

David DeWitt 2:19Um, based on a model, we're part of States Newsroom, which is a 501[c][3] nonprofit. It's got a network of these news outlets. Uh, we're up in about 15 states. Um, North Carolina's the flagship, but also Virginia, Florida, Georgia, uh, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Colorado, et cetera.

Tim Fulton 2:41Got it. And so where does the, the funding actually come from then? Like-

David DeWitt 2:44So we're a 501[c][3] nonprofit, which means that we're funded through a coalition of donors, um, as well as grants, partnerships with other media, partnerships with media-supporting organizations. It's basically like a public model, a public journalism model-

Tim Fulton 3:01Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 3:01... without the public money.

Tim Fulton 3:02I guess, uh, the thing that was curious to me is y- you guys are very, uh, forthright in that you are a nonprofit organization, but there's no donate button either. There's no like, "Hey, if you wanna continue seeing this," like how Wikipedia every now and then for a week puts up a, "Hey, do, do you like that this exists? You should give money," or how, you know, there's a, a, a fund drive on NPR stations.

David DeWitt 3:27Right.

Tim Fulton 3:28Is that something that will come in the future, that soliciting?

David DeWitt 3:30Yeah. W- well, it will eventually. We, eventually we want to prove ourselves to our readers, our value, and, uh, and we will ask, uh, if they like what we do and they want us to continue to do it, um, we'll ask for donations, but we're not ever going to put our content behind a paywall. We're never going to make people subscribe or even fill out surveys. We're always going to be free, uh, to our audience and free for republication because another big part of what we're doing is we, and especially with the independence that I've been given to create the Ohio Capital Journal and m- my vision-

Tim Fulton 4:04Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 4:04... I'm really interested in supporting journalism, community journalism, alternative journalism, all of journalism. I think it's incredibly important right now to support journalists doing good stuff, holding government accountable, uh, giving people the knowledge and the power that knowledge gives to make informed decisions. That's how small D democracy is supposed to work. So I really want to lift up journalists and journalism, highlight good stuff being done by other people, share our journalism freely in the traditional model where, you know, there are some budget issues, um, and, you know, really support other journalists and the good work that they're doing.

Tim Fulton 4:42How do you feel like you've been received from both the general public and the folks that you're covering, from the, the politicians i- in the state house?

David DeWitt 4:52Um, the, uh, the other journalists, uh, a lot of them I've worked with before. I know them pretty well, and they've been very, uh, kind and receptive and generous, uh, in, um, wel- welcoming my reporters to the state house. I, uh, I see our role not as to, um, I see our role as complementing and expanding on the work that they already do.

Tim Fulton 5:16Mm-hmm.

David DeWitt 5:16So they're all doing the stuff that they have to do, um, to, to get their jobs done, and they're focused on newspapers and, and other priorities. Um, we want to expand on their work. We wanna dive deeper into doing investigative work, data journalism, diving into campaign finance reports.

Tim Fulton 5:34Mm-hmm.

David DeWitt 5:35Um, we just did an interesting one about expensive, wi- weird expenses that people had. Um-

Tim Fulton 5:40So when-

David DeWitt 5:40A lot of people don't have the time to do that. We can, you know? And they can-

Tim Fulton 5:43Yeah. Someone, someone bought-

David DeWitt 5:44And they can, they can use the stuff

Tim Fulton 5:44... 100 jars of honey.

David DeWitt 5:46100 jars of honey, yes.

Tim Fulton 5:48Uh, a- and, uh, expensed their campaign.

David DeWitt 5:49Hair combs and, um, buying livestock at state fairs is super popular among pol- politicians. Um-

Tim Fulton 5:57Do they eat the livestock?

David DeWitt 5:58Yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:58Okay.

David DeWitt 5:58It's like the, the 4H club stuff.

Tim Fulton 6:00Got it.

David DeWitt 6:01You know? Um-

Tim Fulton 6:01I just don't know what they're doing with the livestock and what... how that's related to their campaign.

David DeWitt 6:06But yeah, but no- nobody else would spend the time to do that. We can do that, and then, you know, other people republish it, and it's great to see.

Tim Fulton 6:13Yeah.

David DeWitt 6:13That's what we get excited about.

Tim Fulton 6:14So do you see folks republishing it? I know that Columbus Underground-

David DeWitt 6:18Yeah

Tim Fulton 6:18... has republished some of your work.

David DeWitt 6:19And I'm so grateful to Columbus Underground for republishing it because, as I said, that's what we get excited about. We want to have, uh, reach and impact and get these stories out to people, um, because we're focused on doing the best journalism possible. So when we get republished, it's great. So Columbus Underground has been republishing, as well as a wide variety of others, uh, the BG Independent, the Hamilton Journal-News, Patch has been republishing a lot, The Athens Messenger, The Athens News, and, uh, just yesterday, the story that we're talking about with the jars of honey, uh, Cleveland.com.

Tim Fulton 6:50That's awesome. And so what about the folks who you're covering, like the politicians-

David DeWitt 6:54Oh, the politicians, right. The second part of your question that I didn't get to. Um, yes. Uh, the politicians actually they've been really good with the, uh, reporters. They've been very receptive. Uh, they've been open. They've been willing to talk, and I think that that's a testament to the quality of the reporters that we have. They're good journalists doing good journalism, and they're being fair, but they're also holding people accountable. Um, and I think, you know, the, the reception has been good from the politicians that we've been talking to about the bills that they're sponsoring and whatnot, so...

Tim Fulton 7:27And to follow up with that, do you feel like you have any trouble pr- given that you're a brand-new organization, your backing is from a, a, a third party basically, do you feel like you've had to do anything in order to prove your legitimacy in the space?

David DeWitt 7:42Well, I think, I mean, people are always going to be skeptical. There's always gonna be cynics, and I think that what you have to do is just prove yourself with hard work and doing the best work that you can do. So I'm... I've been a journalist a long enough time that I'm used to being attacked. I'm used to people saying all sorts of things and accusing, uh, journalists of all sorts of things, and you really have to let that go and just focus on doing the best job that you can do and following what you know to be your own, um, guiding compass, uh, moral compass and what you know to be the right way to do journalism in a responsible and effective mat- manner, you know?

Tim Fulton 8:24Would, would you say that you guys have a... You, you... Full disclosure, you have a, a, um, previously employed by, uh, is it Plunderbund? Is that what it's called?

David DeWitt 8:34Yeah. I worked for... I w- so previous to this, um, in journalism, I worked for the... I started my career at the National Journal in Washington, and I worked for the New York Observer covering the 2008 election, and then I worked for the Athens News for a long time, and while I was at the Athens News, I was also serving as, uh, managing editor of Plunderbund for a number of years.

Tim Fulton 8:55And so Plunderbund, for those that don't know, is a very left-leaning-

David DeWitt 8:59It's a... Yeah.

Tim Fulton 9:00It, it's-

David DeWitt 9:00It's a very left-leaning liberal blog, yeah.

Tim Fulton 9:02Yeah. So do you believe that your outlet at, at large has a, a bent to it? And do you think that your... And if it doesn't, does your background hinder that perception?

David DeWitt 9:15So there are a couple ways to look at it. It... We run openly progressive commentary.

Tim Fulton 9:21Okay.

David DeWitt 9:21I'm openly progressive. I've always been op- my opinions have never been secret. I wrote openly for Plunderbund when I was in Athens. I've, um... Yeah. So obviously, I'm progressive. I'm very open about that. My commentaries are very progressive, and I invite progressive commentary from a wide spectrum of people.

Tim Fulton 9:39Okay.

David DeWitt 9:40But, um, the journalism itself is... And my reporters know this. I expect them to do straight down the line, responsible, traditional, what you would call in journalism school Walter Lippmann objectivity journalism.

Tim Fulton 9:51Okay.

David DeWitt 9:52Right? So that's what they're expected to do, and I give them an enormous... Because I've been given an enormous amount of independence in this project, I give them an enormous amount of independence in their story selection and what they want to do. Um, so maybe, um, people might argue that our story selection would be left-leaning, but you could argue that in any way. I don't believe that that's true.

Tim Fulton 10:16Okay.

David DeWitt 10:16I think that we've, we've been highlighting a lot of bipartisan stuff. Um, I think that my reporters are doing a really good job of just being in the state house every day and looking at what's going on and then turning around and telling the people of Ohio, "Hey, this is what's going on."

Tim Fulton 10:32Mm-hmm. And I, uh, so I've, I, I've looked at the site a couple of times since you started and seen you're certainly churning out content, and it's a lot of it. You're doing, uh, um, th- that's a testament to having four full-time people there and available-

David DeWitt 10:46Right

Tim Fulton 10:46... to you, which is great. How much do you... What's the end goal, do you think, of like this is how I've proven, or maybe you do actually know, what's the... where do you need to be in six months to consider yourself successful? Where do you need to be in a year or two years in order to... Is it... Are you gauging success by number of clicks? Are you gauging success by legitimacy in the space, by people picking it back up? Um, w- what does success look like for you?

David DeWitt 11:19So what we get excited about, what success looks like to me, and I don't have timelines on it-

Tim Fulton 11:24Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 11:24... as far as I w- I want to continue to build The Ohio Capital Journal, um, and ho- hire more journalists to do more good content, but what we get excited about is being republished, um, having an impact by spreading the word and getting our work out there in front of as many eyes as possible. We get excited about leading coverage on stories. So for instance, uh, when the Lordstown plant shut down-

Tim Fulton 11:50Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 11:51... in Youngstown in the Mahoning Valley, there was a, a big question about what happens next, and we were one of the first to get in that, into that story and say, you know, "These are the things that the leaders, the elected leaders and officials and businesspeople are doing here, and that's what happens next." So we like to lead the coverage. We like to have an impact. We really want to reach as many Ohioans as possible because we really want to show people how state government and what they do or what they don't do actually impacts their lives, and we think that when you give people information like that, when they have good solidly reported information, and they see what their state government's doing and how it impacts them, then they can in turn make informed electoral decisions, and that's kind of the whole, you know, ideal of journalism and the fourth estate in general is that we're here to inform the people. You know, the old James Madison quote that, uh, "A people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives," and reporters are here to give that knowledge and the power of knowledge.

Tim Fulton 13:01Can you speak to your model and, uh, the fact that it, it seems as though it needs to exist, that a nonprofit journalism outlet model needs to exist, and that, that whether that's a good thing because it's not accountable to advertisers and, and subscribers, um, or whether it's, uh, an indication of, uh, things have gotten this bad.

David DeWitt 13:29Yeah, I d- I don't know why exactly the for- or what the forces are motivating the rise of nonprofit journalism right now. Um, but you see this dynamic happening, right? Like, the Salt Lake City Tribune was the first traditional legacy paper in the country to go full nonprofit. You see other legacy papers, like the Charleston Gazette Mail, doing partnerships with Report for America, a nonprofit-

Tim Fulton 13:53Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 13:53... and it's kind of underwriting their operation. You see the Associated Press now, uh, cooperating with Report for America, and they're adding state house press recorders in I don't know how many states. But you see these partnerships between nonprofits and the traditional model, and I think that that's mutually beneficial because I think that the journalism industry is in, you know... We're all trying to figure it out. With Facebook and Google Hoovering up all of the advertising rev-

Tim Fulton 14:23Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 14:23... revenue, you know? Like, everyone's trying to figure it out, and so there's a lot of ways where I see where nonprofit journalism and traditional journalism can work together and s- just support the idea and goal and dream of journalism and what it's supposed to be.

Tim Fulton 14:40And so do you believe that that's good, that basically we, you have found a new model and hence journalism is allowed to endure?

David DeWitt 14:49I, I... Anything, I think, that helps journalism sustain and endure and give and arm people with the power of knowledge, I think is a good thing. I think that there are... Just like the traditional model has, you know, certain publications or advert- you know, the ad- advertisers and how that works, and you have to be wary of nonprofits too. There are some ill-

Tim Fulton 15:12Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 15:12... motivated nonprofit journalism outlets, just like there are ill-motivated traditional model outlets. The reader, reader beware, right? Judge the model on the quality of their content and what they're doing.

Tim Fulton 15:23Yeah. And so talk about sort of how you... What's your background? How did you get to where you are now?

David DeWitt 15:31So, um, my biography is that I, I grew up in Ashtabula, Ohio, on the lake. I, um, went to OU. I graduated from there in '07. I got a job at the National Journal in DC. I worked there for a little bit less than a year, then I worked for the New York Observer. They launched a 2008 politicker website in Ohio, so that was my first politics base. This is more policy with the Ohio Capital Journal, um, website. Then I went to the Athens News. I was the associate editor there for about nine years, and I did the Plunderbund thing too. Uh, the thing with working as a small town community journalist is that you... In your 20s and you're making that low journalism salary and-

Tim Fulton 16:15Yes

David DeWitt 16:15... you're living in a college town, you can make it work for a little while. But to be honest, um, you don't make that many journalism connections. It's really hard to break out, right?

Tim Fulton 16:24Yeah.

David DeWitt 16:24So, uh, I spent about four years trying to find a job at a legacy paper somewhere in DC or LA or New York, where most of the journalism jobs are, or even here in Columbus.

Tim Fulton 16:35Mm-hmm.

David DeWitt 16:35I couldn't get a call back from anybody. Um-

Tim Fulton 16:38Okay

David DeWitt 16:39... so that was tough. I eventually got an opportunity. Um, I interviewed for a job in communications because I knew the 2018... My friend Zach Space was running for auditor, and we had talked a lot about how gerrymandering poisons democracy-

Tim Fulton 16:55Okay

David DeWitt 16:55... in general. And, um, he was running for auditor in 2018, and there was a spot open at the Ohio Democratic Party in communications. And so I figured, hey, if this gets me to Columbus and gives me opportunities and I can make a salary better than, um, the traditional community journalism salary. I took that opportunity and I... You know, we, we obviously got swept in 2018, except for the two Ohio Supreme Court races and Sherrod Brown. But, um, we did pass redistricting reform-

Tim Fulton 17:27Mm-hmm

David DeWitt 17:27... which was my big goal anyway because I think with gerrymandering, if you topple that domino, you see a lot of other dominoes fall. That and campaign finance.

Tim Fulton 17:36Yeah, absolutely. Any questions from the house? Yes, Walker.

Walker Evans 17:41So you, you mentioned, uh, Facebook and Google, the big duopoly, uh, sucking up all the advertising dollars, uh, which hurts all kinds of journalism, from legacy to digital. The other side of the equation, particularly with Facebook and Twitter, is that in sort of post-web 2.0, consumers expect information to come to them. They don't go to websites to read news anymore. They want the information coming to them, and a lot of times that's through platforms like Facebook or Twitter. They think, "I can follow Ohio Capital Journal on Facebook, and I'll get the information." Um, but all businesses, whether you're a newspaper or a restaurant or any kind of business using a social platform, uh, your reach is limited unless you're paying for it. So if I have 1,000 followers and I push out a news update, it gets to maybe 2 to 5% of them, unless you're paying to get it to them. So it's kind of a, a one-two gut punch. "Hey, we're taking away your ad dollars, and now we're making you pay to reach your own followers that you're using our platform for." Uh, is there any hope to getting past that, uh, gatekeeper model with these social platforms? Do, do you think Facebook will ever legitimately open up its doors and say, "Hey, journalism, you're an exception to the rule. You can actually get information to people because it's important"?

David DeWitt 18:52Um, that's a great question, and I, I don't know the answer to it. I guess my suggestion would be that... I've been talking about the importance of journalists and journalism self-supporting, promoting each other. That seems to me like a situation where we all need to get together in some way, you know, to be able to have the power honestly to lobby to affect change and whatever that, however that power looks like. I mean, what can you do? You can refuse. You almost have to take a stand with Facebook, right? Refuse to let them use news content, but you all have to be united, and whether that's possible is a huge thing. It's the hardest thing in politics is coalition building. Coalition building with a bunch of journalists, different companies, nonprofits, but eventually those big companies are going to have to exert some pressure, the big companies in the traditional model, and they're consolid- y- we just saw GateHouse and Gannett consolidate. You know, they're getting more power. What they do with it or how they address that is gonna be interesting to watch, for sure.

Tim Fulton 20:01And I will add in, I think, I, I personally believe that it's an economies of scale issue where somebody may see content from you, and you hope to God that they're gonna start following you or, uh, s- God bless them, start checking your website a couple times a week. As you validate yourself and continue to put out content and continue to prove that there's value to coming back, that there's four or five new articles every day, that that's the thing that sort of, um, you get to skip it, right? But at the same time, while you may be looking at clicks, 'cause you do have stakeholders regardless of whether there's advertisers or not, the biggest thing is getting folks to come back and getting folks to come back on their own volition, so.

David DeWitt 20:46Right, and actually this reminds me of one thing that we're priorit- or I've chosen to prioritize, uh, in that climate that Walker's describing, is my newsletter. People do want things directly.

Tim Fulton 21:00Mm-hmm.

David DeWitt 21:00I can reach them directly with a newsletter. I just need to figure out ways to get people to sign up for it, right? So sign up for our Ohio Capital Journal newsletter.

Tim Fulton 21:11That's all you're asked to do tonight.

David DeWitt 21:13But, um, you know, honestly, like I talked to that about my, with my digital people, that was something that I brought up to them early is that I want the newsletter to be a thing because I'm getting people directly in their inbox there.

Tim Fulton 21:27Yes, the thing that by default they have to check.

David DeWitt 21:29Right.

Tim Fulton 21:30Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Any other...?

David DeWitt 21:33Yes, sir.

Tim Fulton 21:34I'll just repeat the question if it's short. So the question from the audience was is what, there are certainly some difficult comments that a, uh, that the general public put up, whether that be on your story or on Facebook or on Twitter. How much do journalists and the folks who are managing them have to deal with that as well?

David DeWitt 21:59All right. Yeah, so this is the, my least favorite part of my job.

Tim Fulton 22:03No. No, it's-

David DeWitt 22:04It's a great question.

Tim Fulton 22:05Yeah.

David DeWitt 22:05Because I would love to talk candidly about this. Uh, comment sections in general are where my faith in humanity goes to die. I hate, I loathe comment sections. It brings out the worst in people. It brings out the worst instincts in people. It's kinda like when people are in their cars, and because they're not, like, walking down the sidewalk, they start, you know, and we've all done this, you start, you know, throwing F-bombs at people. Would not, like, if you bumped into somebody on the sidewalk, you wouldn't do that, right? Comment sections have that, that removed aspect where people just unload in the worst ways. I hate dealing with it because I, I mean, I try to live a life of great positivity, and that stuff is just insane. I do believe in freedom of expression to a large degree, um, so, and free speech. So I don't moderate... If there's vulgarity, if there's n- crossing lines with name comment, uh, with name-calling, if there's something that's just too egregious, I'll hide those comments. Um, but typically, I just let them do whatever they're gonna do. I don't like people spamming our comment sections either, but it is literally the least favorite part of my job. I hate having to go to the comment sections to babysit.

Tim Fulton 23:26And do you feel, I mean, do you, you do feel like you have to, though, like that it's because you have a responsibility to sort of keep this forum clean to an extent and also not allow people to devolve into basic name-calling of each other?

David DeWitt 23:44Yeah, I, and mostly I do it quietly. One time, the f- this week, for the first time, I put in a note, an editor's note, because I published a story that featured an 11-year-old girl talking about being trans and talking about the Ohio Fairness Act and what it mattered to her.

Tim Fulton 24:03Hmm.

David DeWitt 24:03And she, or the, her quote was literally, like, "Adults bully me," or something along those lines. And so I knew that when I posted that story that I could bring any, you know, any number of comments out of just the worst nature because I've been dealing with comment sections for so long. So I left an editor's note, and I said, "Hey, we will not allow any more bullying of this 11-year-old on our page, and if you try it, I'm gonna delete it."

Tim Fulton 24:33And that was proactive. That was before-

David DeWitt 24:35Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:35Good.

David DeWitt 24:36Yeah. Uh, no, I posted the story, and I posted that comment right away.

Tim Fulton 24:39Got it.

David DeWitt 24:40Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:40Good.

David DeWitt 24:41And, and it's, it's that type of stuff where I, I guess it's... You talk to journalists, and everybody has different strategies. Some people try to head comments off at the pass by hiding them early. Some people are very strict and delete things, a lot of things. Other people just let people have at it and do whatever.

Tim Fulton 24:59Mm-hmm.

David DeWitt 24:59I think all of us as journalists, we have our individual strategies.

Tim Fulton 25:03Hmm.

David DeWitt 25:03That was one of mine.

Tim Fulton 25:05Good. Any other questions? Okay. Well, David, thank you so much for your time. Anything else you'd like to say?

David DeWitt 25:13No, Tim, this has been great. I really appreciate the opportunity. I really appreciate Columbus Underground for reprinting our articles and just everything that you've done. A big fan, and, uh, thank you so much.

Tim Fulton 25:23Cool. Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of The Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite journalist. If you're interested in sponsoring The Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Special thanks this week to William Mount. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.