Real Estate at Ohio State

Tim Fulton 0:13Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we learn about The Ohio State University's history of and philosophy behind what and how they build on campus. Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren spoke with Ohio State's Vice President of Planning, Architecture, and Real Estate, Keith Myers, to discuss the overall Ohio State framework plan, the importance of connecting Ohio State to the larger university community, how the COVID-19 crisis is affecting their plans, how Ohio State has evolved over time, and why consistent leadership and vision are needed for productive change. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview.

Brent Warren 1:57Keith Myers, thanks for talking with me today. Keith is the Vice President of Planning, Architecture, and Real Estate at Ohio State, and you've been in that position since 2013. Is that, is that correct, Keith?

Keith Myers 2:09Yes, it is.

Brent Warren 2:11Um, and I know before that you are the founder or one of the founders of the planning and landscape architecture firm MKSK, and you guys worked on a lot of really significant projects in Columbus, and that's something I'd love to talk about some of those if we have time. But I, I did wanna start sort of with your role at Ohio State and maybe give us a little bit of, uh, of your own background and sort of, uh, how do you describe your role at Ohio State? What, what do you do there?

Keith Myers 2:40Well, as much as anything else, I think, you know, I'm pretty fortunate to lead a pretty talented group here in the Office of Planning, Architecture, and Real Estate. So we have the university architect, university landscape architect. Um, we manage, um, Campus Partners, um, and we also manage another, um, 501c3 for the university called SciTech, which is involved out on West Campus. Um, and really I think as much as anything else, what, um, I do is, um, connect some really talented people with projects that need to be done and, um, just kinda shepherd, um, shepherd them through the process. It's, you know, as you can imagine with a big institution, everything here is, is a bit of a process and, and there's never a straight line to a solution, any solution. So, um, I just help try and navigate it as best I can.

Brent Warren 3:36Mm-hmm. Um, I know you've worked on, on some big projects that people are familiar with. Um, you mentioned Campus Partners, so there's the, the whole 15th and High project and the Arts District, which is under construction now, I believe, kind of-

Keith Myers 3:53Yeah

Brent Warren 3:53... across the street from that on the campus side of High Street. Any other big ones that people may not be aware of? I mean, the big one I wanna talk about is West Campus, but -

Keith Myers 4:03Okay

Brent Warren 4:04... we don't have to start there. I know there's, there's lots of other things your office has been working on.

Keith Myers 4:09Yeah, I think there's, you know, we've been working quite a bit, as you can imagine, we'll talk about it in a minute I suppose, West Campus. But the, um, 15th and High has been a big effort. Um, it's, um, really, um, been a labor of love here in the univers- in, in the office. And I, and, um, I think a big potential change for the university as we try and connect the University District neighborhood back to, uh, the university with that project. We were, um, successful in assembling, um, about nine acres, um, directly across from the main entrance of the university on 15th. And, um, that project is, um, under construction now and, um, with a couple of, um, buildings, um, an office building for our development office. Um, we've rerouted 15th. We've opened up 14th and 16th to full intersections b- on High Street again. And, um, uh, and we're building the home for WOSU, so that's an exciting project.

Brent Warren 5:14Mm-hmm.

Keith Myers 5:14N- multiple projects within one.

Brent Warren 5:16I wasn't really planning on talking too much about 15th and High, but I, I feel like I need to ask. A lot of people, I think when they, when they hear Campus Partners, they think about all of the big changes on High Street, some of which you guys are involved with, some of which you're not. And they think about, like, sort of their ideal, basically when they went to Ohio State and what High Street looked like then, and how it doesn't look anything like that. And there's... Y- you know, we have lost a lot of the local businesses that were on that stretch. What do you say to people in terms of, like, what is that stretch of High Street gonna look like? What's your vision for that moving forward, and what do we have to look forward to in the next decade or so there?

Keith Myers 5:57I can't speak for all of High Street. I mean, we're, um, we've focused really on, um- Th- three pulse points, um, that were identified in our framework plan, um, the first framework plan back in 2010. But one was at Lane and High when, and that emerged, I think, quite successfully with, um, the, uh, when we redid the north dorms, and then private development sort of filled in the other corners. Um, a, a second has been and remains The Gateway, um, and, uh, at the south end of High Street. And the third is, is what we're, um, developing now, which is, you know, the main entrance to the university there at 15th and High. Um, when people ask me about the local businesses, um, that's, um, a pretty sensitive topic. I mean, we're trying hard to be as, as sensitive to that as we can. But, um, you know, there's, um... You know, I went to Ohio State, you know, longer ago than you wanna know, and gee, I miss all the businesses that were there. I wish they were there, but, um, uh, I didn't go to them anymore, you know? Um, and most alumni don't, you know? Um, it's a little awkward being, you know, 40 years old or 50 years old and going down on campus and hanging out, you know, at a campus bar. Um, so, you know, businesses, particularly retail businesses, evolve, and streets evolve, and cities evolve. And, um, this is just another part of, um, of that evolution. And, um, I, I think it's, um, it's been the way of cities really since the dawn of time, and it's no different here.

Brent Warren 7:39Mm-hmm. Well, I know you guys have, as campus partners, have made an effort to get local businesses into The Gateway, and there, there have been throughout, and there are now. There's local businesses there. Is that gonna be a focus with the 15th and High in terms of retail and, uh, just sort of, is that something that's a goal of the project?

Keith Myers 8:00It's always a focus, everything that we do here. It's, um... We very much want the projects to have a kind of personality, and oftentimes that, what we have to, you know, do as a landlord is, um, you know, be as, as interested in the business of our tenants as they are. And, um, you know, n- nowhere was that tested more than in this whole COVID crisis. Um, so, um, we, uh, very much believe that, um, uh, we're partners with our tenants. Um, we work hard, um, es- to the degree we can, we work hard to help them, um, every step of the way, pandemic or no pandemic. And, um, and that's what you have to do for local businesses, and we're pretty committed to that. I mean, that's not to say we're not gonna have some credit-worthy tenants and things in from time to time, because, uh, in order to be able to do that with the local tenants, you need to have a foundation, a financial foundation, um, to, to work, to work with. So there'll be a mix, but yes, we're pretty committed, um, to local tenants.

Brent Warren 9:07In terms of the outlook for that project at 15th and High-

Keith Myers 9:10Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 9:11... has it been set back a little bit by the COVID-19 pandemic, or is it... I mean, I know construction work is still ongoing. Uh, but there's a lot of elements to that. I mean, there's a big hotel plan for it.

Keith Myers 9:24Yeah.

Brent Warren 9:24Um, is some of that gonna be stalled?

Keith Myers 9:27Yeah. Without question it's, it's had an impact. Um, it's, um, for the moment we've, um, paused the second building, um, to the south of the square on the south side of 15th. Um, we're gonna reevaluate that in a month. The, the hotel negotiations, um, continue. Uh, I'm hopeful that we'll be able to, um, come to terms, um, with the hotel in the next, you know, six weeks sometime. But, uh, yeah, without question, you know, the pandemic's had an impact.

Brent Warren 9:58Before we move on, um, the more we talk about 15th and High, the more questions I have-

Keith Myers 10:03Yeah. Sorry

Brent Warren 10:03... 'cause I mean, I've been following it. I live in the u- I, I own a house in the University District, and I've been-

Keith Myers 10:08Yeah

Brent Warren 10:08... following it the whole time, you know, through, through my reporting. Can you talk a little bit about the, the... 'Cause I know o- one of your big focuses is on the public space and, like, that main plaza. I don't think people have a sense of what that's gonna be like. When you think about what was there before, it was a little bit of a kind of, there's a corner there, and there was some open space, but it was sort of, a lot of it was, uh, like, a private patio for, like, for a bar. And then there was some other stuff there. Um, what's the vision? What's that gonna look like when this project is all done?

Keith Myers 10:44Well, one of the, um, I think, advantages of us, um, uh, developing 15th, and I should say that there were private development interests looking to develop 15th and High before we got started. Um, so, you know, part of that was gonna change one way or the other. But we are able, um, fortunately, to make, um, a pretty significant commitment to public space. Um, that's a very expensive proposition to do when you look what the acquisition costs of the real estate are. Um, so, um, I think that's, um, something that, um, we're committed to. We're pretty proud we've been able to do. Now, the design of that public space, um, has been, uh, pretty important. I mean, all the public spaces, the sidewalks, the alleys. Um, what, what we hope is that, um, we, we create, you know, one of the most comfortable, um, civic rooms that we can. That, that people, um, are comfortable gathering there for celebrations, for, um, events. Um, but equally just on a day-to-day basis, they're completely comfortable just hanging out, you know, in the square. Um, and, um, we've tried to design it- Uh, so can accommodate all those things, um, but most importantly the latter. We really want it to be a place where the neighborhood is as comfortable as the university, um, and it's becomes a connection point, um, between the university district and the university, which have been, you know, tied together really since the founding of the university in 1870. So, um, that square, uh, we hope is, um, gonna become the catalyst for that.

Brent Warren 12:33Okay. Now I kinda wanna turn to West Campus, if that's okay.

Keith Myers 12:38Sure.

Brent Warren 12:39What strikes me about this project is the scale of it. Um, but let's just talk a little bit about, this is, we're talking about kind of south of Lane Avenue, west of, uh, Kenny Road. Is that right?

Keith Myers 12:51Yes. Yes.

Brent Warren 12:52And this is where people, if they're familiar with that area, there's a lot of, uh, like, athletic fields there.

Keith Myers 12:58Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 12:59There's parking lots , there's, there's a few academic buildings, but it's, it's pretty open now, right?

Keith Myers 13:06Yeah, it is.

Brent Warren 13:07And I, I'll, I'll just sort of the summary that the, the last time I wrote about this, I think it said based on what you guys have said at OSU, that that whole area could eventually be filled, th- there, there'll be a new street grid, uh, potentially dozens of new mid-rise buildings and apartments for as many as 4,000 residents. Is that, first of all, is that still the realm of what you're looking at for that space?

Keith Myers 13:36Well, I think in terms of residents and things, I, you know, that's, that's to be seen. But the, in terms of the scale of the development, yes. Um, it's about 270 acres, the, uh, area. It's, it's, it's large. But, but you have to go back and sort of understand what West Campus is today, okay? I mean, you know, I, I jokingly refer to West Campus as sort of the junk drawer of the university, okay? So, you know, s- it's been there for a long time and, you know, over the decades people get an idea and, you know, they don't know what to do with it, so they stick it out on West Campus. So as a result, it's the repository of all kinds of things, okay? So you go out there and there's, you know, um, satellite arrays, there's, um, uh, you know, a failed idea for a freshman campus, you know, that has been, you know, cobbled together now as research buildings and there's, you know, um-

Brent Warren 14:31I didn't know that, some of those buildings that was originally gonna be a freshman campus?

Keith Myers 14:35Yeah. The idea was that freshmen were too vulnerable to be placed on Main Campus with everybody else, so they, you know, created University College and, um, all of the, uh, freshmen were assigned out there until the freshmen figured out they could get the same classes on Main Campus and they said, "Forget this," you know? And so that, that just failed, you know? And, um, you know, the buildings were designed in the la- one of the last major c- crises this country faced, which was the energy crisis, so, you know, at that time architects overreacted and designed bu- you know, they were gonna save energy so they designed a bunch of buildings without windows, you know? That was a great idea. And, you know, so, you know, they're out there and, and that's sort of what we ha- you know, turns out those, you know, without, you know, buildings without windows work okay for research buildings, but, you know, nobody wants to, you know, go to school there, you know? It just, the thing was just kind of a bad idea. So, I mean, that's-

Brent Warren 15:32Well, they probably wouldn't enjoy doing research in them either, right?

Keith Myers 15:35Well, you know, I, you know, we're so short research space, I think people are glad to have the, um, square footage, so. A- a- and there's some amazing research, I should say, out there. If anybody's ever interested, the Byrd Polar Institute is just incredible and, um, they do offer tours occasionally and, um, the work that that group is doing and has been doing for a long time on climate change is just fascinating, so I would encourage anybody to go out there and look and see. They've done and they made use of, of those old, uh, former academic buildings. But West Campus has been this, you know, this hodgepodge of, like, stuff, and the predominant use on West Campus today is parking. Okay? That's its primary function for the university, and it, it, it's got 40 to 50 acres of parking out there.

Brent Warren 16:25Wow.

Keith Myers 16:25Almost 4,500, close to 5,000 cars. Okay? So that's, um, uh, that's kind of what it is. And I think, um, as we began to look at it, I mean, one of the things that occurred to us is, hey, this thing's at a tipping point. Okay? Like, one more bad idea and it's gone, okay? So, um, you know, we got pretty, um, focused on, on, um, creating a master plan for it and, um, you know, trying to, you know, pull it back from the edge and, and that's really, um, what you see, um, today. The first phase of that is under construction. You know, oddly enough it's a parking lot and a road. But, um, but we need it to, um, uh, that sort of checker boarding that, of, um, parking that you have to do in order to develop sites are underway. And we hope to begin, um, construction on, um, the first major research building here in a few weeks, and you'll start to see it, um, phase one of that emerge. Um-

Brent Warren 17:31And th- those early buildings are right on Kenny? Is that right?

Keith Myers 17:35Yes, they are. Um, we have the Energy Innovation Center, um, the Interdisciplinary Research Building, and the West Campus Ambulatory Building will all be along, um, Kenny Road. So it's pretty significant when you look at sort of, you know, investment and, um, these are big buildings. I mean, the research building's, like, 300,000 square feet, so that is a big building. You know, you'll, you can start to get a sense, I think, from those buildings of what we expect the balance of the West Campus development, um, to be.

Brent Warren 18:03And how, how does that work moving forward? 'Cause the- Vision is for not just Ohio State buildings, right? I mean, uh-

Keith Myers 18:11Yes

Brent Warren 18:12... are there private buildings mixed in?

Keith Myers 18:14Absolutely. I mean-

Brent Warren 18:15Are there private developers building those? How does the whole thing work?

Keith Myers 18:18Well, we're going, um, to probably identify a development partner or two, um, to work with. Um, unlike 15th and High where Campus Partners, you know, developed couple of buildings, we're not gonna do the hotel. Um, we're not gonna do that. West Campus is way too big. Um, so we'll be looking, um, to bring in development partners. We've begun to try and identify, um, people that would be capable of that. And, um, you know, we were well into that process when COVID hit and just kind of, um, shut us down for a period of time. Uh, but we hope, you know, as, um, hopefully the pandemic eases its grip, um, in a, um, in the not too distant future and we can get started up on that again. Uh, but yes, and, and we do hope that there's, you know, I mean, our expectation frankly is that there will be, um, a fair amount of, um, private development out there.

Brent Warren 19:15Mm-hmm. And you think there's sort of in Columbus in general and in that area specifically, there's the demand for like a development of this scale. I mean, people see, people always ask me, they see these developments going in like Bridge Park and Scioto Peninsula- ... and they're like, "How many more of these can Columbus take?" And this, this West Campus thing is like a lot bigger than a lot of these other ones. I mean-

Keith Myers 19:47Yeah. It is. It's a lot different. Uh, I mean, it's very, very different than some of those. And, and that's, um, I think that's its distinction. Um, as far as how many of these Columbus can, um, can absorb, I think, um, the answer is a lot more, you know. Um, you know, one of the things I think we have to do is, I mean, one, and what we, uh, guard against here is, um, making an assessment of the market or anything else in the depths of a, of a worldwide pandemic, okay? It's probably, you're probably not gonna get the best view right now. And you have to look at where things were when we went into this and, and, you know, what you might expect, you know, coming out. Um, and I, I believe that Columbus was on a, um, pretty serious growth trajectory going into the pandemic, and I fully believe it'll be on that again when it comes out. Um, so I think the answer to, to that is, you know, we can absorb all of it, the Scioto Peninsula, all of it. Um, in terms of West Campus, of course, it's quite different because it's focused on, um, research and, um, you know, there are different, um, uh, uh, different focus areas within that. There's, um, you know, biomed, there's, you know, advanced materials. There's, there's a number of research clusters that, uh, the university is, um, a leader in, and I think, you know, that will attract, um, companies and potential partners and things to, um, to come in and help, um, develop it. I, I, I should say I don't think West Campus is gonna develop overnight. It's too big.

Brent Warren 21:28Right.

Keith Myers 21:28Okay? I was reminded that the Arena District is just building out the last sites of our original master plan, which we did incidentally in 1997.

Brent Warren 21:39Mm-hmm.

Keith Myers 21:39Okay? So, um, and that is, you know, our original, um, the, the original Arena District as it was defined back then is about 45 acres. Okay. Which is, we have 270.

Brent Warren 21:51Right.

Keith Myers 21:51Okay. So, you know, it's gonna be a while.

Brent Warren 21:54And people think of, people think of the Arena District as a pretty fast, uh-

Keith Myers 21:59It was

Brent Warren 22:00... kind of thing. Yeah

Keith Myers 22:00It was very fast.

Brent Warren 22:02Right.

Keith Myers 22:02If you'd told me in '97 that it'd be building out the last sites, you know, 20 some years later, I wouldn't have believed it. And, and the same's gonna be true at West Campus. It'll go faster than, than we think, but it's still gonna be measured, um, the, the full build out of it will be measured in, in decades, not years.

Brent Warren 22:19Mm-hmm. In terms of that process and how that works moving forward, I just from the perspective, uh, of a, a, of a reporter-

Keith Myers 22:29Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 22:29... who's trying to cover this stuff. The things that you guys do at Ohio State, especially when you are building on your own land-

Keith Myers 22:36Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 22:36... that happens in a way that is different than private development-

Keith Myers 22:42Yes

Brent Warren 22:42... the stuff that I write about. I mean, that stuff, it goes through kind of a, a ver- a much more public process it seems to me. I mean, I know you guys have a long process that you're working through, but in terms of people who aren't, uh, connected directly to Ohio State, how do they, like, what is the process for that, these big developments moving forward that people can sort of know what's gonna happen and have a chance to weigh in on it before-

Keith Myers 23:09Mm

Brent Warren 23:09... it's already decided and about to be built?

Keith Myers 23:14Well, 15th and High, of course, was a very public process because, you know, Campus Partners is just that, a partner with the community. And-

Brent Warren 23:21Mm-hmm

Keith Myers 23:21... um, that went through all of the normal hoops that any other project does. We heard from the University District Commission, um, many, many times. Um, so-

Brent Warren 23:31Yeah, I was, I was there.

Keith Myers 23:33Yeah. I'll bet. Um, now in terms of, um, when we're building like in, on land that we own out in West Campus, um, you know, we've, we've got a little different situation, uh, anywhere on campus. I mean, if we go to build the Arts District, okay, that's, um, that's internal to campus. Um, and, um, we still have, there's a process that we go through with respect to, you know, connecting to public utilities, making sure the roads all work, and all that kind of thing. Um, but we don't go through a public approval process in the same way. Um, and, and, um, I- We do, however, go through, um, an approval process here at the university. Uh, and that includes, um, getting the projects approved at the board of trustees, um, which is of course public in public, uh, meetings. And I think if one follows, um, the reporting on the trustees and the trustees meetings and things, they'll have a really good idea of, of, um, what's on tap and what we're thinking about. We take to the trustees not just the, um, projects once, you know, they're designing. Uh, but we take planning studies to the trustees. You know, we go through them-

Tim Fulton 24:41Right

Keith Myers 24:41... in public session, and so-

Tim Fulton 24:43Right, so they're, they're approving money for even just the planning, like very early in the process for these bigger projects.

Keith Myers 24:49Yeah, and we keep them informed. So the whole framework plan went through the trustees in public session. The, um, and any other little studies that we do, transportation plan, those kinds of things, um, we generally brief the, um, trustees in public session.

Tim Fulton 25:05The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit MORPC.org. So I wanted to switch gears a little bit, and I know you've been involved with the Urban Land Institute, and one of the projects of the Urban Land Institute, uh, in the last year or so has been the Rapid5 project.

Keith Myers 25:51Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 25:51Um, I looked this up. We, we wrote about it in December of last year, which feels like a decade ago, but, um, that's when I think you guys released a video that sort of gave an overview of, of what it was. And, uh, maybe you could, you could just start and tell us what this project is and what the idea behind it is.

Keith Myers 26:12So it's, um, yeah, it's, um, become increasingly interesting of course that the pandemic has, um, both, um, illustrated the need for it and, um, sadly enough slowed down our process, um, a little bit in terms of advancing it. But, um, you know, the Urban Land Institute works with partners and, you know, one of the, um, ideas that has emerged is, um... And I'm, I can't say it's necessarily a new idea. It's just, you know, we've been trying to, um, breathe some life into it and maybe package it in a way that's like, uh, that's very understandable for the public. The Urban Land Institute is, um, we think has a, has a role in helping, um, foster, um, broader communication around, um... Or po- gathering more public support and input for bigger ideas. So, you know, the corridor study was that, and, um, the 2050 plan, um, was part of that. But this is an exercise to try and understand, we have five major waterways, um, that move through Franklin County, um, north to south. Um, the Darby, you know, the Olentangy, um, Sutter River, Alum Creek, Blacklick Creek, and the, you know, there's... And you could add Big Walnut to that as well, probably six. But these major waterways moving, um, north, south through the region. An interesting thing about them is they're fairly evenly dispersed across the county, okay? So, um, if you could imagine, you know, a, a single system, suspend disbelief for a moment about, you know, what jurisdictions manage what, okay? Because I, uh, we're not trying to create, you know... But, uh, but think of those waterways as a system of public parks and greenways, okay? Through the county. Um, it's a pretty interesting concept, you know, that, you know, you think about, um, some of the great park systems the, the Olmsteads designed, you know, in the early part of the 20th century. The, the Emerald Necklace around Cleveland is a classic example of a really strong interconnected, um, greenway and parkway system. And you look at this and you think, "Holy cow, there's like five of these just evenly distributed across the county." Um, well, what's interesting about that is, um, if you're able to stitch them together into one single cohesive vision, then, um, you would have a major parks system, um, throughout this county and several others that would in effect, um, be within a, a mile and a half for two miles of every resident in Franklin County. Okay? Um, and it, and then you look at it and, and you know, we have, and then say, "Well, you know, that's a lot of land. You got the, the..." 80% of both banks of all those waterways is already in public ownership. It's astounding. Um, so it's a really, it's a very real opportunity that exists out there if we can create a vision for it, and that's really what Rapid5, um, is intended to try and do. It's, it's not a master plan so much as it is, you know, the start of a civic conversation about, you know, what kind of potential is this? Fast-forward to the pandemic, which of course, uh, one of the things that we have to do in order to, to do this is raise money, and that's really hard to do today, okay? So, um, unfortunately we've had to slow it down from where we thought we'd be. Um, but as we emerge from the pandemic, we fully intend to get, um, started back up again. And, and but what the pandemic has done and has illustrated, um, in a very real way is the need for this kind of space. I- if you talk to, um, Metroparks, to Tim or to, um, uh, any of the planners at Metropark, and, and you talk about how heavily used they have been in this pandemic, um- It's astounding. Okay? And, you know, people have learned new things. They've gone to new metro parks, say, "Hey, this is pretty nice. You know, who knew where Sharon Woods was? But, you know, now that I do, and I'm only two miles away, you know, it's pretty cool." And that kind of, um, awakening, I think, is what makes this idea, um, so interesting. Um, it's, it's really an opportunity that's been there for a long time. What, what we're trying to do is just say, "Hey, look, why not?" You know, because really that's the role of, uh, you know, the ULI and other organizations within the community. It's not, uh, it's not so much to say what is, um, but really to ask the question of what can be.

Brent Warren 31:15Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm always trying to drill down into specifics.

Keith Myers 31:19Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 31:19I understand that this is a, like, 10,000-foot kind of grand vision and more of a, like, raising awareness of the potential. But in terms of, like, people say they hear this concept and they say, "Oh, well, we already have, uh, you know, O- we have the Greenways, we have the Olentangy Trail. I mean, what else, what would this bring us that we don't already have or we aren't already working on in, in Central Ohio?"

Keith Myers 31:43It would be, it would be more, um ... Potentially you would expand it, okay, the parks system along it, um, over a period of years. You would connect existing parks and things to it, okay? And most importantly, what you would do is directly connect neighborhoods to it. I mean, well-executed, um, there's great neighborhood, uh, portals into this system that may have their own little individualized parks attached, um, to the entrances into this that identify with that particular neighborhood and are a reflection of that neighborhood. Um, so, you know, I think there's a lot to be gained from, from this kind of a system. I, I, I don't know if you know Cleveland well. I grew up there. But, you know, when you get into the metro park in, in Rocky River, okay, and you get down on Valley Parkway, y- you can get on a bike or a car or anything and you can drive that thing forever, you know, all the way around the, uh, west side around to the south side of Cleveland and, you know, never come out. And it's w- it's wonderful.

Brent Warren 32:50Mm-hmm.

Keith Myers 32:50And there's a million things along the way to, um, stop, see, do, all of that.

Brent Warren 32:56Mm-hmm. So what should we expect next from that project? What's, what's in, what's in the-

Keith Myers 33:03Well, I-

Brent Warren 33:05... plans for that?

Keith Myers 33:05Yeah. Sadly, I mean, it, you know, it's just what I hope is that as we emerge from the pandemic and people can again turn their attention to, you know, from, you know, what am I gonna do to kinda survive this, which is, which is, you know, been increasingly important economically and everything else, uh, we'll be able to quickly raise the funding for it and, um, uh, bring on some, um, teams to help create a vision for all of the waterways and, and to work with the, um, neighborhoods to, um, come up with a, um, you know, a, a, a vision, which is all we're trying to get to. But we have to raise money for that, and, and that's obviously a very difficult thing to do right now as, you know, we have to, we have to unfortunately be a little more patient than I like being, but- But it's ... I've been told to be patient, so I'm being patient. So it's just not a strong suit. So.

Brent Warren 34:01Okay. I wanted to ... You mentioned it earlier, and this is on my list of things to talk about, which is the Arena District, which as you mentioned, this was, like, you know, over 20 years ago that that plan help- kinda came together and you were a big player in that, in sort of in that vision and coming up with the plan which led to the Arena District that we know today being built. And I, I think it's interesting 'cause I know a lot of people who follow development today in Columbus who maybe weren't around at that time, they didn't live here, or they were too young to, to sort of notice. They look at the Arena District now and they see, okay, this is a, it's a, it's built around an arena. It's a mixed-use development. You have retail and restaurants. You have a nice pedestrian path going through it. You have a mix of office and apartments. That's, like, what we see built everywhere now, basically. But at that time, my impression is this was something pretty new for Columbus, and there was skepticism, my understanding, from just the idea of, like, y- that you're gonna get people to live there. Is that right?

Keith Myers 35:09Yeah.

Brent Warren 35:09I'm just ... I'm, I kinda wanna go back in time and, and-

Keith Myers 35:12Sure

Brent Warren 35:12... hear from you what it was like getting, making that happen.

Keith Myers 35:16Well, um, you know, you gotta remember in, in 1997, um, nobody wanted to be in cities. Okay? E- everything was happening out in the burbs. Okay. So the idea of, um, you know, taking a penitentiary, okay, and knocking it down and, you know, building a place where people are gonna live was pretty radical. Okay? And, and to be fair, I mean, honestly, um, uh, it was, um, Brian Allison, Nationwide, who, you know, believed in it, okay, and Nationwide Insurance who had made a commitment to the city decades before when they built the, um, their, their headquarters at the north end of downtown, which was desolate at the time. And for a long time, that building was surrounded by gravel parking lots.

Brent Warren 36:14Mm-hmm.

Keith Myers 36:15Um, and, um, but they had had a choice. They owned land up on 23 in Delaware County, which was their other choice for a headquarters. Okay?

Brent Warren 36:24Oh, that's interesting.

Keith Myers 36:25And they chose to stay in Columbus, and in downtown Columbus. And they did that in the '70s when, you know, let me tell you, in the '70s, cities were not good places. Um, you know, we, we love them now, and, and some of us have always loved them, but, you know, you could go back and look at the garbage strike in New York, or look at the pictures, go see what cities were like. They were not great. Nationwide committed to it and they, and they doubled down, um, with the Arena District, um, and the arena. So it was, um, it was a desolate site. It was primarily gravel parking, um, and a, and a penitentiary. Um, it was difficult to imagine what it might be. Um, the first, you know, uh, when I first, um, sat down to work on the master plan, I had visions of, you know, this amazing little tight, little urban, you know, neighborhood and this is just gonna be amazing. And, you know, I cr- quickly realized that, um, you know, what was gonna shape that as much as anything else was parking, as much as I hated it, you know. And, um, we had to figure out how we were gonna manage the parking, both the background parking that was already there on the site that needed to ... needed a place to live and, and the new parking. Um, so once we, we settled on that and, you know, committed to sort of burying the parking, you know, behind the buildings, um, the plan began to emerge. And I'll say this, the, the original sketch that I did, which I later gave to Brian , um, really doesn't look that different from what it is today. You know, the park was there. You know, the squares were there. The, you know, s- the extension of, um, Nationwide Boulevard was there. And, you know, for where, you know, it ... The master plan was good. It was, it was a good master plan. Um, it's played out obviously. That's how you can tell whether a master plan's good or not. It's not an evaluation by, you know, learned architects and planners. You know, it's did it work is the, um, is the true evaluation of any plan. But it wasn't rocket science. You know, as I got into it, um, I realized that, um, in order for this to work, um, any good urban design plan or any master plan is just about creating connections. Okay? We had to create connections on multiple levels. We had to connect to the neighborhoods, we had to connect back to downtown, we had to connect the streets, we had to connect pedestrian ways, and we had to connect the river back up into, um, the district, which is what the park was. The McPherson Park was an effort to try and accomplish that. And after that, you know, it just sort of fell into place. You know, it ... But i- which makes it sound easy, and it's not. I was trying to explain to somebody the other day that these things take a long time. It's taken two decades, two and a half decades, and it takes consistent leadership and vision at the top to get that done. And, you know, I often think if Brian Ellis had been 56 when we started that instead of 36-

Brent Warren 39:39Mm

Keith Myers 39:39... I have no idea what the Arena District would be, but it wouldn't be as good as it is.

Brent Warren 39:44Yeah, 'cause Brian Ellis is still there today-

Keith Myers 39:46Yes

Brent Warren 39:47... working on that. Yeah.

Keith Myers 39:48And it, it takes that kind of leadership and consistency of vision to make a project of that magnitude come together.

Brent Warren 39:57And I think that's really interesting how Nationwide early on made the decision to build their office building there, and they could have gone in a whole different direction. With that arena plan, I've always wondered what was sort of the other vision? Like, what was the other plan on the table? Was it about building an arena with parking next to it? Or what did that look like?

Keith Myers 40:18Yeah, you can find it. Um, the Hines plan, it's out there if you look. Um, the Hines plan for the arena had, um, uh, an arena kinda stuck in, um, a sea of asphalt parking. That was, that was the plan.

Brent Warren 40:32Okay.

Keith Myers 40:33And, and I remember early on in a meeting, um, with Brian Ellis and, and Diamond McPherson, um, where, you know, it was made clear to me that they didn't want a development. They wanted this to be an extension of downtown. Okay? So they didn't want, like, gates and you'd come through and you're ... I mean, they really wanted it to be ... Now, it could be different, which it is, but, you know, the roads connect, you know, there'd be as seamless a connection to downtown as possible, and, um, that was, um ... In 1997, that was interesting direction. And by the way, I welcomed it.

Brent Warren 41:11Mm-hmm.

Keith Myers 41:11So.

Brent Warren 41:11I'm just thinking generally in all the other projects you've worked on since that Arena District plan, are there other things that, um ... or are there things now that you think this is an idea that is maybe ahead of its time for Columbus right now, but in 20 years we'll look back and say, "Oh, I can't believe that was a challenge to convince people to, I don't know, build, build better mass transit or do something el-" Are there other things that you think fit into that category?

Keith Myers 41:39Yeah. I don't know. You mentioned transit. I think that's clearly one, but, um, you know, I ... What, what ... There's probably a lot that I don't even know of, you know, um, 'cause I've been cloistered here at the university for the past few years and, you know, I'm not quite as abreast of everything as I, as I used to be. But I think Columbus is a, is a, um, place ... What, what I've always relished about it is, um, it's, it's a place where, um, ideas can live. Okay? Um, I practiced in Cincinnati for a while. I grew up in Cleveland. Uh, you know, I decided to open a business here, um, because, you know, Cincinnati is, um, well, it's, it's Cincinnati. It's a beautiful place, but, you know, you have to, you have to live and work there for a while to truly understand it. And Cleveland, I just don't wanna go back to. But Columbus was more like the Wild West, you know, where I thought you might be able to get a chance here. I didn't know anybody when I opened a business here, you know? Just, um, chose to come here. And that's been true, you know, and I think it's still true for this city. When we proposed taking a dam out of the river in downtown, okay- And we suggested that, you know, we- we're gonna totally remake a river and return it to its original channel right through the m- right through the middle of a major urban American city, okay? Now, that was a little bit of a crazy idea, okay? But it got done, and that's what I have always admired about the city, you know? I mean, you can... I mean, they don't all happen and, and some thankfully they don't. One time there was ideas of putting monorails through downtown Columbus. That would've been a disaster, you know? I'm really glad that didn't happen. But, you know, the river turned out okay. The arena district turned out okay. There's, you know, um, I think the Set of Peninsula's gonna turn out okay. The work that Guy Worley's doing with the CDDC is amazing. Um, I just, I think, you know, things can happen here that just can't happen elsewhere.

Tim Fulton 43:43Great. I think that's appropriate spot to end the interview. Thanks for talking with me today, Keith. I really-

Keith Myers 43:48Sure. Happy to do it

Tim Fulton 43:49... appreciate it.

Keith Myers 43:50Yeah.

Tim Fulton 44:00Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite educator. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.