The Dick & Jane Project

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, I sat down with Ben Shinabery, the executive director of the Dick and Jane Project. It's an organization that's stated mission is empowering students through songwriting. We talk about how the organization works, how it got started, and what it's like running a nonprofit in Columbus. Dick and Jane Week, the organization's annual fundraiser, is coming up October 1st through 9th, with shows every night at various venues around town. Today during the show, we play some selections from bands that will be performing at Dick and Jane Week. A portion of the proceeds for each show that week will be donated to the organization. You can get more information on the Dick and Jane project, the bands whose music we featured here today, and all the shows that are part of Dick and Jane Week in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Ben Shinabery, the executive director of the Dick and Jane Project on the occasion of their upcoming Dick and Jane Week occurring October 1st through 9th at venues throughout Columbus. Ben, how are you?

Ben Shinabery 1:30I'm great. Thanks for having me.

Tim Fulton 1:31You're very welcome. First of all, just for those that are unaware, what is the Dick and Jane Project?

Ben Shinabery 1:36The Dick and Jane Project, um, our mission statement is to empower students through songwriting.

Tim Fulton 1:41Okay.

Ben Shinabery 1:42So, uh, the philosophy of the Dick and Jane Project is pretty simple. Uh, we believe that young people, uh, specifically middle school students, are the best lyricists in the world. Uh, and this is because-

Tim Fulton 1:55Lyricists for, for songs?

Ben Shinabery 1:57For songs.

Tim Fulton 1:57Okay.

Ben Shinabery 1:58Uh, and this is because most singer-songwriters, uh, when they're trying to write a song are looking for some unique perspective, some new idea, um, and really middle school students and young people are living that every day. They're curious about the world, they're, they're learning new things, they're, they're bringing this all together to, you know, to form their realities. Um, and because of that, you know, if we're able to pull, uh, those ideas out of their heads into songs as lyrics, you know, it's going to be impactful for both them, um, and it's gonna impact us as listeners. The problem is that middle school students typically are not the best musicians and music producers. So, uh, to counter that, we connect them with the best musicians and the best producers in Columbus to form the best songwriting groups possible. We have the best lyricists working with the best musicians and the best producers to create songs.

Tim Fulton 2:51And not to be glib about it, but sort of what, what's the point?

Ben Shinabery 2:56There's many points. Um, ultimately, you know, uh, the biggest takeaway for the students when they're participating in Dick and Jane, um, is that they're, they know on day one of the song, of a songwriting process, they're creating a song that thousands of people are going to listen to. And we can tell students that with confidence because of our radio partnership with WCBE, who plays every song that we create, um, on their station. And so that in itself really empowers the, the students that are writing, uh, to, you know, to take it very seriously and to know that other people in the world are going to take their writing seriously. And that sets off a whole course of events where they have never experienced writing for that kind of real purpose.

Tim Fulton 3:45So is it fair to say that at its heart it's a literacy project?

Ben Shinabery 3:49Uh, yes, absolutely. And, um, within our curriculum, we, you know, we follow a lot of the Common Core standards and we align with a lot of the state standards that typically they're, they're asked to follow in their English Language Arts class. Um-

Tim Fulton 4:01So does this replace that for some of them?

Ben Shinabery 4:04Absolutely. There's been, uh, many times where we've gone into a school, uh, for two weeks and taken over an English Language Arts class. Uh, and, you know, and went in every day for, go in every day for an hour, uh, to work with those kids, and the schools and the teachers treat it just as any other typical writing class that they would have.

Tim Fulton 4:23Shortly, I wanna get into an example of a song from Dick and Jane Project, but before we do that, can you sort of talk about the production that happens?

Ben Shinabery 4:31Sure.

Tim Fulton 4:32I'm sure... Is it, is it slightly different each time, or?

Ben Shinabery 4:35Slightly different, 'cause, you know, every song that's made has a different process behind it. Um-

Tim Fulton 4:41Just given different students and different producers that you're-

Ben Shinabery 4:44Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 4:44Okay.

Ben Shinabery 4:44Absolutely. And even, I mean, any song outside of the Dick and Jane Project. I mean, Taylor Swift, Justin Bieber, anybody that makes a song goes through a different process.

Tim Fulton 4:51Okay.

Ben Shinabery 4:52Um, but kind of the confines to our process, um, is, uh, is the two weeks, uh, where the producers are meeting with the students, um, on a daily basis. And so, uh, the easiest way to kinda break that down is, is into the, the first week and the second week. So the first week, basically the students and the producers are meeting together to build the rock of the song. So they, you know, to get a theme, to get the lyrics, to get the idea of what they want their song to sound like. So-

Tim Fulton 5:18And is it truly just sitting down with the kids and saying, "What do you care about?" Or?

Ben Shinabery 5:23Pretty much, yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:23Okay.

Ben Shinabery 5:24Um, and that gets the students talking. That gets them to open up. That gets them, um, you know, really thinking hard about the song. T- on the first day, um, of the workshop, the producers come in and sit down with the students, and basically they just listen to YouTube videos all day. Uh, the producer asks them, "What kind of music do you like? What," you know, "what's your favorite song?" And this acts as, one, as a, as an icebreaker just for the students to feel comfortable with the producers.

Tim Fulton 5:47Right.

Ben Shinabery 5:48Um, but it also gives those producers, um, a chance to understand what kind of song these students are going to be making. Um, and rather... You know, we found over the course of the, of the 77 songs that we've made, it's much easier to ask a student what song they like rather than, you know, "What kind," you know, "what kind of song do you want to make?" It's a very complex, uh, question for a student, but if we know, oh, they like, they like, you know, this song and this song and this song, let's talk about the elements within those songs and what you like. Do you like the drum beat? Do you like the fast pace? You know, we kinda break down the songs to-

Tim Fulton 6:21Do you care about the bridge?

Ben Shinabery 6:22Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 6:23Right.

Ben Shinabery 6:23Like, what's a bridge, you know, to them.

Tim Fulton 6:25Right. Well, and so I think anybody can identify with bonding over music.

Ben Shinabery 6:30Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 6:31Um, and certainly that then breaks down barriers and, and, and- Like your mission statement says sort of, you know, empowers the student to sort of say, "Okay, I'm empowered with this person who literally has the ability to make this music, and they're truly asking me what I wanna make." And so sort of as that process keeps rolling, they become more comfortable.

Ben Shinabery 6:53Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 6:54We're gonna take a listen to the most recent song that the Dick and Jane Project produced, uh, Beauty is Attitude. Who's the producer of this song?

Ben Shinabery 7:02Uh, this was a kind of a unique, uh, song in that we actually brought four of our producers on board, uh, to all collaborate. So we've got Nick D'Andrea, uh, Corey Montgomery, Rashad Thomas, and Glen Davis all working together, uh, to create this song.

Tim Fulton 7:17Great. And the school?

Ben Shinabery 7:18Uh, the school was, uh, Berwick, uh, Alternative K through eight. It's a Columbus City School.

Tim Fulton 7:23Great. Let's take a listen to Beauty is Attitude. Don't worry. Take baby steps. We, we, we've all got our flaws. Don't have to hide them from the rest. No matter what they say, you, you, you belong. You don't have to hide your scars. They make you who you are. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. I'm always with you. I'm holding on. You always have my shoulder when everything goes wrong. Follow your heart. Don't let them bring you down. Nobody is perfect. Lift your head up off the ground. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. You better work. You better shout. You better let the you inside of you get out. You better work. You better shout. You better let the you inside of you get out. You better work. You better shout. You better let the you inside of you get out. You better work. You better shout. You better let the you inside of you get out. Beauty is attitude, babe. Beauty is attitude, babe. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Beauty is everything you do, babe. It's attitude, beauty is attitude. Beauty is attitude. Again, that was Beauty is Attitude produced by the Dick and Jane Project and students from Berwick Elementary. There is actually a mini documentary on the Dick and Jane Project site, dickandjaneproject.org, that you can check out about the production of that song and seeing some of the kids go through the process. Again, we're here with Ben Shinaberry from the Dick and Jane Project on the occasion of Dick and Jane Week coming up October 1st through 9th. Ben, before we talk a little bit more about the shows coming up, how did you start the Dick and Jane Project?

Ben Shinabery 10:55It's kind of a funny story, and the most commonly asked question. Uh, so-

Tim Fulton 10:59Why, why are you doing this?

Ben Shinabery 11:02Uh, so really the Dick and Jane Project started in 2010. Um, and originally it started with, uh, with me taking... I don't know if you remember the old, uh, Read with Dick and Jane books. Uh-

Tim Fulton 11:18Yeah

Ben Shinabery 11:19... I was, you know, when-

Tim Fulton 11:20I mean, they, they, they are frankly too old for either of us-

Ben Shinabery 11:23Right

Tim Fulton 11:24... to, to have actually used-

Ben Shinabery 11:25Right

Tim Fulton 11:25... but we're aware of them in popular culture.

Ben Shinabery 11:27There you go. And, um, so I was working-- At the time I was working in a, uh, in a, a childcare center. Um, and a parent had donated a Read with Dick and Jane book to the center. Um, and I thought it was funny because one, these kids aren't learning to read, and that's what those books are meant for. And two, w- you know, no three-year-old is gonna be captivated by, you know, "See Jane run. Run, Jane, run." Uh, and so I took the book home with me. Uh-

Tim Fulton 11:54You stole it.

Ben Shinabery 11:55I stole the book, yeah. And, uh, and randomly one day I was playing my guitar. Uh, I was learn- you know, I was just kind of a beginner. Um, and I started singing the lyrics of the Dick and Jane book, uh, to the chords that I was playing. And it was kinda fun to really put, you know, some, some emotional emphasis on pretty bland words. Um, and it was really fun, and a couple other of my friends who also played music, uh, thought it was pretty cool. And we actually went around at a few open mics, um, and performed, uh, songs that are based off of these Dick and Jane books. Um, and so we called ourselves the Dick and Jane Project.

Tim Fulton 12:34Okay.

Ben Shinabery 12:35Um, and then from that, you know, I kinda piqued my curiosity about, about taking- Simple words and even words that weren't necessarily written for a song and putting them into the song. Somehow I ran across, uh, some old writings that some students had made for me when I was working in an elementary school afterschool program, and I got curious and, and put those to, those words to song. And again, it was, it was super powerful for me to bring those words to life, uh, and to sing them and to be connected to them. Um-

Tim Fulton 13:08Well, you got the pleasure of being, like, a songwriter for the first time.

Ben Shinabery 13:11Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 13:11And like re- like, music in my head, I, I am not a musician. I'm- it's just something I've never, I guess, pursued. I would like to say I'm just not good at it. Let's just call it that. Um, but there is sort of this, "Oh, I could never do that," to me. I could learn to play a Tom Petty song on the guitar, but I could never learn to, like, choose some chords, put them together, find out what sounds good, and then on top of that have words and an additional, uh-

Ben Shinabery 13:40The melody or the-

Tim Fulton 13:41Yeah

Ben Shinabery 13:41... yeah.

Tim Fulton 13:41And then put together-

Ben Shinabery 13:42You make this sound really complex and difficult

Tim Fulton 13:44... put together a, put together an additional melody. It is-

Ben Shinabery 13:47Yeah

Tim Fulton 13:47... in my head, it is-

Ben Shinabery 13:48Yeah

Tim Fulton 13:48... difficult.

Ben Shinabery 13:49Yeah. Well, that's interesting 'cause with, you know, when a student's done writing a song with Dick and Jane, I mean, really I, we can tell them, "Okay, like, you've, you've gone through this process. You've written lyrics that are song-worthy. All you d- all you need, really need to do now is, is learn some chords on the guitar and you are a singer-songwriter." Um, and again, to, to kinda break it down and, and for them to see that process, uh, step by step and to understand it-

Tim Fulton 14:16And demystify it, basically.

Ben Shinabery 14:17Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 14:18So what- so how did you actually then transition from you and your friends going to open mic nights into-

Ben Shinabery 14:24Sure

Tim Fulton 14:24... this organization, this, by the way, nonprofit organization?

Ben Shinabery 14:27So once I started working with writings that, that students had written, um, at the time I, you know, I was... I went to, to school-

Tim Fulton 14:35How did that happen? I'm sorry. That you were working with writings that students-

Ben Shinabery 14:39I had just, I, I had just found... Actually, I had a, I knew a bunch of, uh, just friends that had kids that were elementary school, middle school age, um, and I just asked them. I said, "Hey, do you have any writings that your kids have done? I've got this idea. I've got this concept." Um, so I received, you know, a dozen or so writings, uh, that again, we were able to explore with. Um-

Tim Fulton 15:01And this was still a personal artistic exercise-

Ben Shinabery 15:03Ab- yeah

Tim Fulton 15:04... for you?

Ben Shinabery 15:04Yeah.

Tim Fulton 15:04Okay.

Ben Shinabery 15:05Um, so kind of at, at this time, uh, well, couple years earlier I had graduated from Ohio State, um, with a degree in human development, and basically at the t- uh, that was a pre-req, a pre-req to go into the teaching program at Ohio State, and I just wasn't feeling going in... Like, I wanted to be an educator, but I didn't really want to be the typical classroom teacher-

Tim Fulton 15:26Okay

Ben Shinabery 15:27... um, for various reasons. Um, but I w- it, it, I was still look- you know, I really wanted to have an impact in education and education reform. It seemed really clear that there were a lot of changes that need to happen. Um, and so I kinda saw this as, as an opportunity to offer a new experience to students in education. Um-

Tim Fulton 15:46And just as a side note, you are a full-time development person for a charter school here in Columbus-

Ben Shinabery 15:51Absolutely

Tim Fulton 15:51... The Arts and College Preparatory Academy. I think we've talked about it on that podcast here specifically with, um, uh, Counterfeit Madison when we've spoken. She's also, she also works there.

Ben Shinabery 16:02Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 16:03So that being said, sort of how did this go from an artistic endeavor into becoming an organization?

Ben Shinabery 16:09I started to, I started to realize and understand the educational impact that this could have on students. You know, when we first started doing it, it was just a really cool musical project. Uh, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized, "Wow," like, "This could, you know, this could be something." Um, and really it was, it, it started to turn when I started to have conversations with, uh, folks outside the music community and, um, really in the, in the nonprofit world. And I was fortunate enough, uh, through my work at the childcare center to know some, some parents and, that were active in a scene that I was completely, you know... I had no idea what a nonprofit was. I had no, you know, I really had no business ex- you know, experience. I just had this idea. Um, but I was encouraged heavily by some great people that said that, "You know, you should run with this. Uh, you should go with this." Um, and I did. And a couple of them, uh, you know, kind of were my mentors in a way in, in helping me set up the, you know, the Dick and Jane Project as a nonprofit and a 501[c][3], um, even sitting on my board. Um-

Tim Fulton 17:15Well, and I will say as... Excuse me. Here is the part of the episode where I feel like I consistently say, "Full disclosure, I do actually sit on the Dick and Jane Project board."

Ben Shinabery 17:24Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 17:25Um, what was interesting to me when I first got involved was how sort of all the legitimate parts of it, all the incorporation, the receiving approval at, as a 501[c][3] organization with the IRS, doing the financial paperwork, all that stuff was already happening when I came on board maybe, like, three or four years ago. So the organization was only, like, three or four-

Ben Shinabery 17:49Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 17:50... years old at that point. But the sort of programming had just gotten going.

Ben Shinabery 17:54Yeah.

Tim Fulton 17:55Um, in my experience with nonprofits in the past, it's always sort of like, "Okay, what can we do?" And then as soon as you hit that roadblock of like, "Oh, we can't accept a grant because we're not legit. Let's become legit." Or as soon as someone says, "Hey, you can't really accept money from people without being incorporated," you, 'cause, you know, you can't cash a check that says-

Ben Shinabery 18:18Right

Tim Fulton 18:18... you know, the name of an organization if you don't have a bank account for it.

Ben Shinabery 18:22Yeah.

Tim Fulton 18:22Um, we've talked about that on, on the podcast with a couple of, with, specifically with Independence Day, about how sort of it's like, I sort of wanna use the phrase you, you fake it until you make it. Um, but it's sort of like you, you do it until you formalize it.

Ben Shinabery 18:36Yeah. And I think it was, it was different in our case 'cause I think that I had the vision Um, it was a blurry vision of what ultimately the Dick and Jane Project is now. And I think what, what drove me to, to put all of those, um, I don't know how you wanna group all of it, like, the legal aspects-

Tim Fulton 18:54Right

Ben Shinabery 18:54... of, of Dick and Jane in order-

Tim Fulton 18:55Just the formal, like, you know-

Ben Shinabery 18:57Yeah. I knew I wanted to be ready when that vision was realized, 'cause I, you know, I, I knew how long it, you know, it takes nine months for your application to be a 501[c][3] nonprofit, you know-

Tim Fulton 19:10Right

Ben Shinabery 19:10... just to be, to have it be looked at.

Tim Fulton 19:11Right. And that is, that is the, that's sort of the beginning of being able to actually accept money-

Ben Shinabery 19:16Absolutely

Tim Fulton 19:17... that's not, like, you know-

Ben Shinabery 19:19Right

Tim Fulton 19:20... just a person who's donating five bucks.

Ben Shinabery 19:22Right. We weren't a nonprofit that had a very simple and easy to understand mission, you know? We weren't, we weren't saving puppies, you know? We were-

Tim Fulton 19:30Right. Well, and I remember at one point, the IRS, or, or you told me the story of the IRS coming back to you after you submitted the 501[c][3] application, and they said, "Okay, great. So what happens with the songs?"

Ben Shinabery 19:41Right.

Tim Fulton 19:41And literally, you were like, "W- w- what do you mean? They're just songs." They're like, "No, no, no." "That's a copyrighted piece of material-

Ben Shinabery 19:48Right

Tim Fulton 19:49... that you're generating. What happens to it?"

Ben Shinabery 19:51Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 19:51And so it's interesting to me sort of when you get into the nuts and bolts, like, what do you have to think about when you do stuff like that? I wanna take a quick break. Again, we are here on the occasion of Dick and Jane Week happening, uh, October 1st through 9th. Dick and Jane Week is sort of just a collection of shows throughout the city in which a portion of the proceeds will be donated to Dick and Jane Project. Those funds will go directly to producing Dick and Jane Project songs. The first song we're gonna play is by Mazablaska. They are playing Dick and Jane Week on Thursday, October 6th, at Little Rock Bar in Italian Village. Their song is White Curtain.

Mazablaska (musical performance) 20:48My, oh my. My, oh my. Through the slit of the white curtain I could see you were a soldier of the summer heat. You were a soldier from the valley beneath. I'm watching you without being seen. Want to, want to know your attitude toward the living, toward the dead. And if it's all right, I will take my time to figure out what to do. Would you choose to be true to where you came from? What to do. Would he choose to be true? Pass right through you. Oh. Oh no. These walls will fall. Oh no. Everything you say, the words just repeat. What to do. Would you choose to be true to where you came from? What to do. What to do with this life? Would you choose- Everything that you have been through... to be true? Pass right through you. Watching in the dark. Peek through the white curtain. He's coming.

Tim Fulton 24:23That, again, was Mazablaska's White Curtain. They will be performing Dick and Jane Week on Thursday, October 6th, at Little Rock Bar in Italian Village. So you've got everything set up with Dick and Jane Project. You've received approval from the IRS, you're incorporated, you've got some bank accounts, you've discovered sort of the ins and outs of what you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do, and most importantly, frankly, you have a board to help sort of contribute ideas, uh, hopefully contribute- help contribute money or resources. Um, what's- what have you discovered in that process? I don't wanna talk about the songwriting process again just yet, but sort of what's it like running a non-profit part-time?

Ben Shinabery 25:09The biggest thing I've learned is patience. I think with... Again, I, I talked about kinda having the vision of what Dick and Jane could be, and I still have a vision for what Dick and Jane could be in five years, 10 years, 20 years.

Tim Fulton 25:22Okay.

Ben Shinabery 25:23You know, when I talk about patience, it's, you know, when you- when I have this passion and I have this vision and, and sometimes I just, I just feel like, you know, "How could you not understand this? How could you not see the value in this?" Um, and kind of taking a step back-

Tim Fulton 25:36Because the b- the one thing about, like, having a vision and having a non-profit, like, you have to run those, like, even, even if, like, those people came on board knowing your vision, you still have to run ideas past them.

Ben Shinabery 25:48Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 25:49They have to approve the budget. They have to approve what is actually happening. To an extent, you're handing over your vision.

Ben Shinabery 25:55Yes. And, and ultimately, my, my responsibility is to prove that the vision exists, and it, it is a possibility. I mean, it's, it's kind of funny that the reason why I didn't go into being a typical classroom teacher is because the data and the testing and all of the numbers frustrated me. I, you know, I didn't think that, that that was an important part of education. And so now here I am where the most-

Tim Fulton 26:24So instead, you just tried to- y- you decided all the data-

Ben Shinabery 26:27Right.

Tim Fulton 26:28... and all the, you know-

Ben Shinabery 26:29Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:29... actually running the books and making sure that-

Ben Shinabery 26:31Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:31... like, you know, the debits equal the credits or-

Ben Shinabery 26:34Right

Tim Fulton 26:35... whatever it is.

Ben Shinabery 26:36Yep.

Tim Fulton 26:37Huh. Uh-

Ben Shinabery 26:38And even, and even, uh, you know, proving through data that students' test scores go up if they participate in the Dick and Jane Project, or their attendance rates.

Tim Fulton 26:48Have you been able to prove that?

Ben Shinabery 26:50We're working on... You know, I mean, it takes... And again, working with schools and getting that data is, um, another element in itself. Uh-

Tim Fulton 26:57Right

Ben Shinabery 26:58... but the data that we've, that we've gotten so far is, is, um, you know, studying confidence level, self-esteem, um, and even simple questions. The one I'm most proud of is that students, uh, respond positively to the question, uh, "Because of the Dick and Jane Project, uh, I value the importance of revising writing." You know, typically when students, middle school students write a piece of, you know, write anything-

Tim Fulton 27:23Write anything

Ben Shinabery 27:23... it's, it's perfect. It's done. I can't change it. Um, and the songwriting process naturally-

Tim Fulton 27:30Demands revision

Ben Shinabery 27:30... demands that, that they, that they follow that rev- rev- revision process without even thinking about it.

Tim Fulton 27:36Right.

Ben Shinabery 27:36Um, and so it's those, you know, types of, you know... That's, that's the data we're getting right now. Um, it's gonna take a couple years to really get that, you know, solid data that sh- you know, with attendance rates and, and graduation rates even. And again, as, as every year goes by, we get closer and closer to, to getting that kind of data.

Tim Fulton 27:55Can you give me an example of sort of a s- success story with a student or with a group of students?

Ben Shinabery 28:02The first one that always comes to mind is back in 2012, uh, we were working-

Tim Fulton 28:10And the organization had just been getting going.

Ben Shinabery 28:11We... Yeah, I mean, this was, this was very, very early on. Um, and we were working in a school, and a girl was... I could tell that she was upset or bothered by, you know, by something within the songwriting process, and I pulled her aside and, and she told me that, that she wanted to write, uh, you know, a sad song. She wanted to write s- a song about how, how sad she was and... But she, you know, she didn't want people to know that. And she's like, "I, you know, I, I'm, I'm..." It was almost as if she was embarrassed to, to, to want to write a sad song.

Tim Fulton 28:44Okay.

Ben Shinabery 28:45Um, and I told her, I said, "Well, you don't, you don't have to write a lyric, 'I'm sad.' You don't have to, you know, you don't have to be so blunt about it. You can, you can hide your feelings within the words, and you can find other ways to describe it." And she just thought that was, like, the coolest thing, and we were talking, you know, about ways that she could do that. And at the end of it, I said, "Do you know we just talked about metaphors?" And she said, "Oh, wow, metaphors are pretty cool." I'm like, "Yeah." And so as... You know, that was real- That, that was one of the moments where I really realized that this has power in terms of education.

Tim Fulton 29:22Let's take a quick break. We want- We're gonna hear from another artist that's performing Dick and Jane Week. Again, October 1st through 9th at venues throughout the city. This is Dee Dee performing their song Dee Dee. They will be performing Dick and Jane Week October 7th at Ace of Cups.

Mazablaska (musical performance) 29:56Stray thoughts interrogate the mind. Exposing empowering lies. Transposing vows. Into your sleeping mind. Finally I see Wake up, wake up. At the touch of my soul, dissolving. Our stomachs oozing and spinning. Wake up, wake up. Pushing, pulling, we're racing. Flying. I'm a weak man, admiring. Wake up, wake up. Wake up, wake up. Please like me, please like me. Please like me, please like me.

Tim Fulton 32:17Again, that was Dee Dee performing "Dee Dee." They will be performing Dick and Jane Week on October 7th at Ace of Cups. S- Again, sitting down here with Ben Shenabery, the executive director of The Dick and Jane Project. We've talked about the process with students a little bit. Uh, they come in the first week, uh, explore what sort of song they would want to write. They do some writing exercises with the producer. What happens then? What does the producer do with the product that they've got?

Ben Shinabery 32:44Sure. So basically, the, the product that they've got, uh, at the end of the day on Friday of the first week, um... Again, I like to call it the rock of the song. So-

Tim Fulton 32:53Okay

Ben Shinabery 32:54... um, you've got, in a perfect world, a, a bunch of lyrics, a bunch of ideas, um, a whole bunch of songs that are inspiration for what this final song is gonna sound like, and then it's the producer's job over the weekend to basically chisel that rock into m- a more formed song. Uh-

Tim Fulton 33:12Okay. Just the lyrics of it?

Ben Shinabery 33:13Uh, no. So they basically, they take it into the studio and they create a demo. Um, and so that demo is basically going to give the students the first idea of what their song is going to sound like. The producers bring that, that so- or that demo, um, in on Monday, play it for the students, and the students are encouraged... Uh, typically, the students think it's the best thing they've ever heard in their life, you know-

Tim Fulton 33:37Okay

Ben Shinabery 33:37... and they're so proud of it, and they're high-fiving. Really, it's a challenge oftentimes to get them to really, you know, to, to criticize the song, and that's, that's something that, that we really, we, we get on 'em about, uh-

Tim Fulton 33:48Okay

Ben Shinabery 33:49... to say, you know, um, "Really, really tell us everything that you want to change within this." Um, and for the producers too, I mean, early on, uh, in the, in the, in the project's history, uh, producers would spend 10, 20, 30 hours over the weekend trying to make the perfect demo for the students. And we got into some awkward situations where they would, the producers would bring the song, and the students would say, you know... W- it would not match what the students wanted. Um, and there was this awkward tension of, like, the students being scared to say what they felt.

Tim Fulton 34:22Right.

Ben Shinabery 34:23And also the producers being like, "Come on, guys. I worked 30 hours on this."

Tim Fulton 34:25I already... Right. "I already did a whole lot of work."

Ben Shinabery 34:27And... Yeah.

Tim Fulton 34:27Well, what's interesting is, is given... Because these are semi-professional musicians, right? These are people who are gigging. These are people who have recorded music-

Ben Shinabery 34:35Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 34:35... and are able to produce music, but frankly, haven't really worked on teams-

Ben Shinabery 34:40Right

Tim Fulton 34:40... to produce music in the past.

Ben Shinabery 34:41Right.

Tim Fulton 34:41And so that's an education factor for them a little bit.

Ben Shinabery 34:45Oh, absolutely. It's, it's just as much an experience for the producers as it is for the students 'cause really, this is, again, in, in my view, a, a legitimate songwriting team.

Tim Fulton 34:55Right.

Ben Shinabery 34:55Uh, just like any other, you know... And I, I use pop musicians a lot just because, as examples because students relate mostly with pop musicians.

Tim Fulton 35:04Right.

Ben Shinabery 35:04Um, and so-

Tim Fulton 35:05Well, and we're sort of-

Ben Shinabery 35:06And we-

Tim Fulton 35:06Through, through music journalism, we're sort of aware of their process.

Ben Shinabery 35:10Right. So I talk about Taylor Swift a lot, uh, in terms of, you know, Taylor Swift is the face of the song and she is the, the vocalist. Uh, but there's 10, 20, 30 people that, you know, do all of the other stuff, the guitars, the drums, the recording. And that's nothing against Taylor Swift. It's, that's just the modern songwriting.

Tim Fulton 35:30She certainly does contribute to her own songwriting-

Ben Shinabery 35:32And, yeah

Tim Fulton 35:32... which is why she's a good example.

Ben Shinabery 35:34Yeah, absolutely. Uh-

Tim Fulton 35:36She ain't no Kesha.

Ben Shinabery 35:38And so the... And yeah, so the students, you know, they are a part of that, and the producers realize that.

Tim Fulton 35:44Right.

Ben Shinabery 35:44They know that. Uh, and they-

Tim Fulton 35:46Well, and we should point out, the, the producer are paid. They are paid a living wage for the time that they're doing this.

Ben Shinabery 35:52Yes.

Tim Fulton 35:53Um, they're not paid exorbitantly, but they're paid, you know, fairly for their time.

Ben Shinabery 35:57Sure.

Tim Fulton 35:57What happens during that week, then? You sort of, y- you dial down on individual points of the song.

Ben Shinabery 36:02Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 36:02I imagine at this point you've sort of come up with a checklist of, like, "Does the tone of the song work? Are you okay with all the wording? Is..." You know, "Is there more that you'd like to see?"

Ben Shinabery 36:11Yeah. And really, on that Monday, I mean, it could take a, a million different courses.

Tim Fulton 36:16Mm-hmm.

Ben Shinabery 36:17Um, a lot of times, you know, the song does match what the students want, and they're just, you know, really fine-tuning, you know, a lyric. I mean, they could spend an entire day just working on one line.

Tim Fulton 36:26Okay.

Ben Shinabery 36:26And, and that's really, that's a really cool process to... 'Cause in the real world, I mean, a lot of times those intricacies are the most important pieces of, of a product and something that most businesses and business people focus on. And so to give You know, to have something that's 99% done, but to know that, man, like, we just gotta g- if we get this 1%-

Tim Fulton 36:46Right

Ben Shinabery 36:46... perfect, you know, that we're gonna be super proud of that. Um-

Tim Fulton 36:49Well, and that's it. There's an educational benefit to that as well, right?

Ben Shinabery 36:53Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 36:53Just teaching sort of like, "Hey," y- you said that revision is important, but sort of, you know, that, like, last little bit, that long tail of perfection, of, hey, you gotta spend a little bit of extra time just to get that last percentage right.

Ben Shinabery 37:08Mm-hmm. I mean, and that's, I don't think it's been proven yet, but I think that there's certainly something going on with young people in this gen- in their generation where they don't pay attention to those details, where it's a struggle for them to, to really dive into something like that. And again, I think that art in general is the, is the best way that I've observed to get students to really care about those, those specific things, whether it's music, whether it's dance, whether it, you know, all, uh, especially dance. I mean, like, you know-

Tim Fulton 37:41You gotta get it right

Ben Shinabery 37:42... the movement, you know.

Tim Fulton 37:43Right.

Ben Shinabery 37:43And if you don't have it perfect, it'll still look good, but it's not gonna, it's not gonna match what you as a performer vi- envision it to be.

Tim Fulton 37:50Or could do, and it's not gonna knock anybody's socks off.

Ben Shinabery 37:53Right.

Tim Fulton 37:54I wanna get to just one last song from an artist that's performing Dick And Jane Week. Uh, this is Betsy Ross performing Dead Wild. They will be performing Dick And Jane Week on October 7th at Ace of Cups.

Betsy Ross (musical performance) 38:24You look so good with your ripped pantyhose on. Not the kind of thing that I would typically go on. There's just something about tonight. There's just something about tonight. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh. Sitting in the back, seen a movie last night. Then after some drinks, I asked you to come home with me tonight. And after you politely said no, I'm still stuck and you know it 'cause I wanna go, yeah. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh. You look so good with your ripped pantyhose on. Not the kind of thing that I would typically go on. There's just something about tonight, yeah. There's just something about the way that you fit right by my side. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh. Whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh, oh. Whoa, oh.

Tim Fulton 40:35Again, that was Betsy Ross performing their song Dead Wild. They will be performing Dick And Jane Week on Friday, October 7th at Ace of Cups. We are here sitting down with Ben Shinabery, the executive director of Dick And Jane Project, on the occasion of Dick And Jane Week coming up on October 1st through 9th at venues throughout the city. All those shows, if you attend them, a portion of the proceeds will be donated to Dick And Jane Week for production of songs with middle school students. Ben, we've sort of walked through how it got started, what are the nuls- nuts and bolts of running a nonprofit, how the song production process goes with middle school students. You guys have produced 77 songs at this point with middle school students all over Central Ohio. Where do you sort of envision Dick And Jane Project going at this point?

Ben Shinabery 41:27Mm-hmm. So there was a, a couple months ago, there was a, a grant released, uh, from the MacArthur Foundation that was, uh, it was one recipient gets $100 million. Uh-

Tim Fulton 41:39Oh.

Ben Shinabery 41:40And-

Tim Fulton 41:40You just want, that's all you want?

Ben Shinabery 41:42Well, I, y- yes, that'd be great. Uh, um, what it did allow me to do is to, to dream f- I allowed my- myself to dream for a day.

Tim Fulton 41:51I'm sorry, what were the parameters of the grant?

Ben Shinabery 41:53The grant was to make, uh, it, it was really simple. I think it was to m- to make massive change within the world. There were no, you know, it was not confined to education, your environment, or anything like that. It was, it was really open. I think they wanted to just get some, some really interesting and broad ideas. Back in 2010, 2011, when I first started the organization, I spent most of my days dreaming and thinking about what Dick And Jane could be. And so in the last five years, you know, I, I haven't allowed my brain to do that. I said, "You know what? I'm gonna get down to it. Like, I know what I need to do. You know, I know the nuts and bolts. Let's do it."

Tim Fulton 42:30And again, this is a part-time endeavor for you.

Ben Shinabery 42:32Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 42:33Right.

Ben Shinabery 42:33But when this grant came out, I, I allowed myself a day to dream. And I- You know, and not only to dream, but, but to crunch some numbers and do some math. And I asked myself, "What could, what could that money do for the Dick and Jane Project?" And I realized that if we, if we , if we were to, to get that grant, we could give e- every single seventh-grade student in the Columbus City School District their own Dick and Jane song, and we could do that for six years. Um, and what that would do is not only empower every single one of those students, but it would also employ every, uh, musician and producer who's worthy of being employed by the Dick and Jane Project a job, and would also bring in, you know, 100 or 200 other musicians and producers from around the country to Columbus, uh, to, you know, not only be a part of this project, not only, uh, contribute to student success, but contribute to the art scene here, to contribute... you know, to really grow what we've got going here.

Tim Fulton 43:28Right.

Ben Shinabery 43:28Um, and so it was fun to dream like that, and it... But really, that is a vision of mine. I mean, I s- you know, my vision is, you know, a student goes to school. First period, algebra. Second period, you know, science. Third period, Dick and Jane Project. I think that as we go forward, I think that we can prove that there is so much value to this experience that it should be a no-brainer for schools to include it within their annual budgets.

Tim Fulton 43:54Have you figured out sort of... Again, it's only been a short period of time. Like, what, four years that it's actually been incorporated-

Ben Shinabery 44:01Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 44:01... and, and-

Ben Shinabery 44:02Five, yeah

Tim Fulton 44:02... an approved 501[c][3] organization. Have you been sort of able to formalize the process that you go through enough so that it can be replicated?

Ben Shinabery 44:11Yes.

Tim Fulton 44:12And does it, would it bother you if someone in Atlanta Public Schools just sort of like picked it up?

Ben Shinabery 44:17Uh, no, it would not bother me. And so we have a, a full curriculum guide, um, again, that, that walks through, you know, step by step and day by day, and we generalized it enough to be open to, you know, different styles of songwriting and, you know, where it's not a script of how to write a song-

Tim Fulton 44:33Right

Ben Shinabery 44:33... but it's certainly a, um, a nice guide. Um, and so here a- a- in, in Columbus, uh, a year ago we brought on a couple of new producers to the project. Um, and it's not as simple as, "Oh, you're a good songwriter. Yeah, you should come be a, you know, a part of Dick and Jane." It's, you know, we make them shadow an entire experience. I have a lot of conversations with them, uh, to test, you know, how much they care about, you know, the mission of Dick and Jane.

Tim Fulton 45:01Right.

Ben Shinabery 45:02Um, and so I was at a conference, uh, just last week where this super passionate group of, of folks wanted to do what we're doing in San Diego. I mean, one, who am I to say, "No, you can't do this"?

Tim Fulton 45:13Right.

Ben Shinabery 45:14Uh, but ultimately I, I think that, you know, the Dick and Jane franchise, if you will, uh, you know, if, if, if schools and, you know, and, and organizations want to, to follow our process, uh, by all means, yes. And I would love to, if, you know, if they're following, you know, the same guide that we follow and are, you know, and, and, uh, follow our mission and, and if those organ- if those organizations are, are committed to working with us, then yeah, we are completely open, uh, to that. And that's, it's kinda ni- I mean, it's, the whole, the whole process is, is built into society already. If a city has musicians and a city has young people, they can do this.

Tim Fulton 45:54Okay. Again, we're here on the occasion of Dick and Jane Week. If people want to help, uh, obviously attending Dick and Jane Week, donate , you can just straight up give your money at dickandjaneproject.org. What if there are parents and/or educators that want to have Dick and Jane Project come to their school?

Ben Shinabery 46:11Sure. Um, I am always open to meet with parents a- and educators that, that wanna bring Dick and Jane to the school. Um, and so really it's as simple as emailing me.

Tim Fulton 46:21Okay.

Ben Shinabery 46:22Um, ben@thedickandjaneproject.org. Um, and I'd love to-

Tim Fulton 46:27Does that, is that process sort of formalized in terms of, obviously you have to get permission from the school. There is a cost associated with it, but to the best of your ability, you guys utilize donations and grant dollars in order to defer that cost from the schools.

Ben Shinabery 46:45Correct. And so really that first meeting, that first meeting entails a lot of figuring out what the Dick and Jane songwriting ec- songwriting experience would look like in that school.

Tim Fulton 46:55'Cause it's different each time.

Ben Shinabery 46:56It's different every time.

Tim Fulton 46:57Right.

Ben Shinabery 46:58And, and really what that always comes down to is funding. And so oftentimes we talk about ways that the school is able to fundraise, uh, to bring us there, or ways that we can partner to write a grant or way, you know, or ways that we can use funds that we get, for example, from Dick and Jane Week, uh, to support, uh, songwriting experiences at the school. And so really it's, it's, uh, it's formalized in the sense of once we figure out how to fund it, like, we're ready to go.

Tim Fulton 47:24Great.

Ben Shinabery 47:25Yeah.

Tim Fulton 47:25Great. Ben, thank you so much for your time today. Again, Dick and Jane Week is occurring October 1st through 9th at venues throughout the city. You can get more information and the full schedule at dickandjaneproject.org. We are gonna close out the show with probably one of the best known, best enjoyed Dick and Jane Project songs, "Makes Us Happy." Uh, again, Ben, thank you so much for your time today, and good luck with Dick and Jane Week.

Ben Shinabery 47:49Thank you so much.

Musical performance ("Makes Us Happy") 47:53Flashin' lights, cool nights Glow sticks and fireworks I can still remember All the music This is how it should be Just being with my friends And the hot summer night begins We were talking and laughing Like it was meant to be Smoke in the air Feel the ash on my face, yeah Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh We're singing and dancing Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh And we don't really care 'cause it makes us happy Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh Listen to the rain tapping on the windows like it was an old friend. When I'm alone, I can be me. People think it's strange, but I think it's beautiful. I never want it to end, only to keep coming. It's hard to explain, but I think it's beautiful. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We're singing and dancing. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We're singing and dancing. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy. Yeah! We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy. Flowers bloom in the spring. Angela and me walking in the waterfall like music. This is how it should be. Lying on the grass like it was meant to be. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We're singing and dancing. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We're singing and dancing. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We're singing and dancing. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. Oh-oh, oh-oh, oh. We don't really care 'cause it makes us happy.

Tim Fulton 51:43Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on the Dick and Jane Project and Dick and Jane Week in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, your contacts, your enemies, your favorite musician. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, you can get in touch with us at info@theconfluencecast.com. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.