Coffee Talk

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we're gonna do a little bit of coffee talk. We talk to two of the original roasters in town about the coffee scene in Columbus, fair trade, how you can get your cup of coffee, how you shouldn't get your cup of coffee, how globalization and communication has affected the marketplace, and we talk a little bit about running a small business in Columbus. First up, a conversation with Brandon Burr, the coffee sourcing and the education manager for Crimson Cup, then a chat with Jeff Davis, the owner of Brioso Coffee, which now has two locations in downtown Columbus. You can get more information on the roasters and more things that we discuss today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. This week, the Confluence Cast is sponsored by Crimson Cup Coffee and Tea, Roast Magazine's 2016 Roaster of the Year in North America. They travel the globe to buy awesome coffee directly from farmers, then carefully hand roast each bean in small batches here in Columbus. Sip on their award-winning coffees, nitro-infused cold brews, and coffee cocktails served up at their coffee houses in Clintonville and Upper Arlington. Learn more at crimsoncup.com. Enjoy the interviews. Sitting down here with Brandon Burr, the coffee sourcing and education manager for Crimson Cup Coffee. Brandon, how are you today?

Brandon Burr 1:49Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Tim Fulton 1:50Good. Thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for bringing coffee. Uh, my office is actually out today, and so this is a, a pleasant surprise. Tell us, first of all, about Crimson Cup and how it got its beginnings.

Brandon Burr 2:02So Crimson Cup has been around, we just celebrated our 25th anniversary, uh, this year, and, uh, we, we started off 1991 doing a little bit of office, uh, coffee supply, and then we just, uh, started getting into the coffee house scene and started supplying independent coffee houses, and now, um, we've grown to a point where we're providing over 150 full line customers in around 32 states and also Bangladesh.

Tim Fulton 2:33Why that market specifically?

Brandon Burr 2:35Uh, so one of our largest clients is OSU, and so, uh, some students there fall in love with the idea of our coffee and, um, the idea of having a coffee house, and they go back home and they miss it, and so that's the case here where someone missed it and wanted to take it back to the people of Bangladesh.

Tim Fulton 2:53There you go. Hopefully more international students latch onto the coffee.

Brandon Burr 2:57Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 2:57Good. How long have you been there?

Brandon Burr 2:59So I've been with Crimson Cup for a little over six and a half years.

Tim Fulton 3:03Okay. And you have, you are, per the website, you are a cupper there at Crimson Cup. You-

Brandon Burr 3:09I cup coffee.

Tim Fulton 3:10What is a cupper?

Brandon Burr 3:11So a cupper is someone that analyzes, uh, flavors and, uh, aromas and just, uh, quality of, of a cup of coffee. And there's, there's certain protocol for that, and there's, there's standards, regulations, procedures, and, uh, I'm-

Tim Fulton 3:27Is there, is there an overseeing body that-

Brandon Burr 3:29There is. So, like, we use the SCAA, which is Specialty Coffee Association of America.

Tim Fulton 3:35Okay.

Brandon Burr 3:35We use their protocol, and that's kinda like the, the gold standard.

Tim Fulton 3:38You can get more information on the SCAA in the show notes for this episode.

Brandon Burr 3:43Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 3:43So but you specifically are a little bit sort of higher up. While you are a cupper-

Brandon Burr 3:48Yes

Tim Fulton 3:49... you are also, what is the term for, for your certification?

Brandon Burr 3:52So I'm a, I'm a Q Grader, which is a, which is a certification kinda similar to, like, a sommelier. It's given out by the Coffee Quality Institute, which is a non-profit institute, uh, kind of funded by the SCAA.

Tim Fulton 4:03Okay. Walk me through your day or maybe a, a fiscal quarter of your job and sort of what, what it is that you do.

Brandon Burr 4:11So part of, part of what I do is I help run this location that we have down in Bexley. Uh, it's called the Innovation Lab. This is an area where we have a classroom and an application lab, a roasting lab, and a cupping lab, and we try to innovate new products, new drinks, new coffees. Uh, we also teach and train. So I'm typically running barista classes. There's, there's a gentleman there, Dave Eldridge, and he runs a roasting class. And, uh, soon enough in late October, we actually get inspected to become an SCAA certified lab, and that means that we can start giving out Barista Guild, um, certifications and Roaster Guild certifications, cupping certifications, so on and so forth. So then in addition to the education aspect, I also work with Dave closely, and we cup coffees. We cup existing coffees. We cup samples that come in from different countries, uh, from different travels that we take, just a, just a lot of that.

Tim Fulton 5:07Do you have a lab coat that you wear? Is that the sort of environment that you're working in, or-

Brandon Burr 5:12Mm, I, I currently... I would love a lab coat, um, but I currently w-

Tim Fulton 5:16I think you should demand a lab coat.

Brandon Burr 5:18I currently wear a, some aprons.

Tim Fulton 5:21Okay.

Brandon Burr 5:21Different aprons. I kinda collect aprons, tell you the truth.

Tim Fulton 5:24Okay, so it is sort of a, not a sterile environment, but a formal environment for cupping this coffee and, and creating it and sampling it.

Brandon Burr 5:31Absolutely. The r- the room is, there again, there's guidelines and procedure, and that's not just with the actions of cupping. There's, there's rules that you have to have, you know, white, you try to have white walls, and you can't have any distinguishable smells inside the room or facility, and there's certain things that you have to, you have to have in the, in the lab, and it has to be quiet, and everyone has to focus, and no one can talk during the cupping, and-

Tim Fulton 5:54Is that true?

Brandon Burr 5:55Yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:55O-

Brandon Burr 5:55Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 5:56Okay. Okay. Crimson Cup is, while it does have two physical-... locations here in Columbus, two rather consumer locations.

Brandon Burr 6:03Yep.

Tim Fulton 6:03You also have the facility in Bexley.

Brandon Burr 6:06Yep.

Tim Fulton 6:06It is primarily a supplier of coffee to third-party coffee shops.

Brandon Burr 6:12Absolutely. So th- the majority of our business is in the wholesale end, where we roast, I don't know, we roast over a half a million pounds right now, and that goes out to colleges and universities, it goes out to independent coffee houses, specialty retailers. We have a really good relationship with a lot of guys in town, like The Hills and Wyland's. Um, again, I said OSU and several other colleges and universities. But, uh, also some consumer, direct-to-consumer from our roastery.

Tim Fulton 6:39And so what's unique, I think, though, is that you do offer training to those individual coffee shops. Let's say I was interested in getting a coffee shop going in a, in a small location.

Brandon Burr 6:49Right.

Tim Fulton 6:50I could come to you and say, "Hey, I'm vaguely interested in using your coffee, but I also actually just need help in learning how to start a coffee shop."

Brandon Burr 6:57For sure. So that's, you know, Greg, the owner of the company, ha- had written a, a book several years back, it's called Seven Steps to Success, and, uh, that's something that we encourage our clients to use and to read before they actually think about getting into the coffee industry, make sure they're really serious about it. That's, that's just one aspect of it. And then, you know, when they do say, "Yes, we wanna open up the coffee house," we kinda offer them marketing and training and, and things to that effect.

Tim Fulton 7:23Is that part of what happens at the location in Bexley?

Brandon Burr 7:26Absolutely. So that's, like, our... That's the training, training area as well as, uh, the innovation area.

Tim Fulton 7:33So you brought in some coffee today, again.

Brandon Burr 7:35I did.

Tim Fulton 7:35And thank you for that. Talk about where this comes from, 'cause I think it gives a good illustration of sort of how you guys work and how you acquire your coffee.

Brandon Burr 7:44Absolutely. So this is an Ethiopian Kosa Kabina. It's a coffee that, uh, we found in Ethiopia. I was there in January with several other roasters this, this trip. We went there to make a relationship with an existing place that, a farm that we buy coffee from, and it just didn't work out. We, we still gotta make that relationship, but, uh, this, this coffee kinda fell into our laps and we really, really liked it, and we brought it back home and roasted it and found out that it was pretty spectacular.

Tim Fulton 8:14So it is similar to a wine rep or a wine buyer going out to California specifically for, like, one vineyard, and then taking a day and touring around and then discovering something totally new and something they didn't necessarily expect.

Brandon Burr 8:30Absolutely. So we, we went, and this, this was just kind of, we fell into it. The person that took us, the, the company that took us, had been purchasing coffee from a, a specific co-op, and so we found a neighboring, uh-

Tim Fulton 8:43And this is a co-op of farms?

Brandon Burr 8:44Yes.

Tim Fulton 8:44Okay.

Brandon Burr 8:45And the neighboring farm had a lot separation, so they, they kinda separated the certain coffee from the rest of the coffees, and I said, "Hey, man, I wanna try that." And so I got a sample in, and sure as heck, it was really, really good.

Tim Fulton 8:57And so what happens then in terms of logistics? You then make an agreement for a purchase-

Brandon Burr 9:02Yep

Tim Fulton 9:03... and you get it here.

Brandon Burr 9:05So it's, it's, it's kind of a really complicated process, 'cause a lot of things can happen from point A to point B.

Tim Fulton 9:10Well, you're talking about international shipping, too, right?

Brandon Burr 9:12Right, and you're talking about a grain that has a, you know, moisture content of 11 to 13%, so-

Tim Fulton 9:17Okay

Brandon Burr 9:17... there's a lot of things that can happen within the container, within the bag, that, that can alter the flavor of the coffee, and coffee is really good at doing some crazy things during shipping. So we get a sample when it lands in, like, let's say we get our coffee in New Jersey.

Tim Fulton 9:32Okay.

Brandon Burr 9:32So we get a sample, we approve it, and we say, "Yes, this is good." If something were to happen, there's insurance, obviously, from point A to point B, and, um, that all gets very complicated, and there's, like, over eight government agencies that you have to talk to to get a container of coffee into the United States.

Tim Fulton 9:48And I assume you've got guys that sort of handle that. Y- you are not necessarily the guy on the ground handling that sort of thing.

Brandon Burr 9:53That, that typically, that typically is the case. We, we typically have a, an agent help us out with that.

Tim Fulton 9:59Okay. And so once it gets here, once all that is handled, then sort of the roasting process happens.

Brandon Burr 10:05Yep. So then we take it to that innovation lab, and, uh, we roast it several different ways. We try it in different methods, and then we say, "Okay, this is the way we wanna do it." We come up with a curve, and we talk to our production roasters and say, "Hey, guys, let's, you know, let's do this curve." And they try it, and they say, "Yeah, I agree. This is good." So there's a long process from getting it into the building to getting it to the consumer, 'cause we've gotta figure out where we wanna put it and how we wanna roast it.

Tim Fulton 10:33How long is that process, then?

Brandon Burr 10:34It's anywhere from maybe two weeks to, I don't know, a month if, if, if we're really slammed with new coffees.

Tim Fulton 10:43Okay. And what's, I mean, what's the shelf life, then? Like, what's the... I'm getting into the nuts and bolts, 'cause it's the-

Brandon Burr 10:48No, I love it

Tim Fulton 10:48... it's the thing I'm interested in. You know, you have some risk of it going, quote-unquote, "bad," right?

Brandon Burr 10:54Right. So there's so many different variables in that mix. Well, the thing that I think consumers don't, don't really typically understand is that there's a resting period for the coffee. So when we, when we pick the coffee off the tree, we process it, and there's, there's a lot that goes into that, and there's a lot of hands that touch it there. But then after it's been dried to that 11 to 13% moisture, we want to let it rest. Because if we were to just take it and roast it as is, it'd be very, um, green flavored, so very vegetal-

Tim Fulton 11:25Okay

Brandon Burr 11:25... uh, because it's very, very fresh. So we want it to rest, and we want s- some of the chemicals inside to change a little bit. Having it two months after it's actually been picked is a good thing, and then even maybe an additional month of rest when it gets to the United States is a really great thing. And that coffee, depending on what its Like stored in, if it's stored in like a jute bag or if it's stored in a GrainPro, which is like a plastic pretty much like a Ziploc bag.

Tim Fulton 11:50Okay.

Brandon Burr 11:50If it's stored in one of those, it can last a lot longer than if it's just stored with open air.

Tim Fulton 11:55Where's the production facility?

Brandon Burr 11:57Our production facility happens to be about a mile and a half down Alum Creek towards Bexley.

Tim Fulton 12:02Does it smell good down there?

Brandon Burr 12:04It does, but roasting coffee smells different than roasted coffee. It just has... I mean, you can always, traveling through Chicago neighborhoods, you can always tell when you're close to a roastery because of the s- the smell in the air. But, uh-

Tim Fulton 12:15Do you like that smell?

Brandon Burr 12:17I do, actually.

Tim Fulton 12:18I don't.

Brandon Burr 12:18No, I, I know-

Tim Fulton 12:19And a lot of-

Brandon Burr 12:19... people that don't

Tim Fulton 12:20... 'cause it sme- I mean, I like the smell of coffee, absolutely.

Brandon Burr 12:23Right

Tim Fulton 12:23But it smells a little, you know, it smells like something is wrong.

Brandon Burr 12:26Right.

Tim Fulton 12:26It smells like, it smells like burning a bit.

Brandon Burr 12:29Right.

Tim Fulton 12:29At the Innovation Lab in Bexley, you guys offer consumer courses as well.

Brandon Burr 12:34We do.

Tim Fulton 12:35What happens in that consumer course? What, what can people learn?

Brandon Burr 12:38So there's, there's several different consumer courses that we have, and we're just gonna, we're gonna continue to expand them. You know, we just opened that facility January 15th, so-

Tim Fulton 12:47Oh, okay

Brandon Burr 12:47... uh, we're trying to get this, this certification process done, and then we'll offer even more consumer classes. But right now, we have a Coffee 101 class, where it talks about, you know, processing coffee, the history of coffee, how coffee gets from point A to point B.

Tim Fulton 13:02Okay

Brandon Burr 13:02So from there to here to you. And then we also have a roasting class for home roasters, and that's just a, a really basic, like, this is how you-

Tim Fulton 13:11Here's the thing-

Brandon Burr 13:12... get a roast curve

Tim Fulton 13:12... thing you buy.

Brandon Burr 13:13Right

Tim Fulton 13:14Here, here are the different th- ways that you can use it.

Brandon Burr 13:17Right.

Tim Fulton 13:17Okay.

Brandon Burr 13:17And then we also have a brewing class. Um, we're gonna be offering a barista class for consumers. So if someone's like a, you know, they have a small espresso machine at home and they wanna know how to use it a, a little better at least-

Tim Fulton 13:31Right

Brandon Burr 13:31... then they can come in, and we can give them some tips and tricks.

Tim Fulton 13:34Do you imagine that scaling and sort of seeing that as an ongoing revenue stream? Or is it sort of like a, an affinity-building exercise with consumers?

Brandon Burr 13:43That's pretty much what it... I mean, we're not, we're not there to, to make a ton of money off of our consumers, and I, I think that the education is... Everyone, everyone in a Columbus Coffee has the same goal, and that's to educate consumers and to bring awareness to the supply chain or, like, what I like to call it, the value chain.

Tim Fulton 14:01Okay.

Brandon Burr 14:01So the, we wanna make sure that they know that there's, uh, 25 million people that touch their coffee before it actually gets to them. So-

Tim Fulton 14:08Gross

Brandon Burr 14:08... there's a... Yeah. But there's, there's a lot of people that are, that are involved and that depend, you know, their livelihood depends on, on coffee, and it's just not something that's just made automatically, you know?

Tim Fulton 14:19Right

Brandon Burr 14:20There's a lot of, there's a lot of attention and detail that goes into it. And so the, these consumer courses are to bring more awareness to that, increase the quality of the cup, hopefully change people's minds about, you know, it's just not, it's not bean juice. It's something a little bit more special.

Tim Fulton 14:34Right, and we've talked on this podcast with people in the past about sort of being in... It is a commodity.

Brandon Burr 14:40Right.

Tim Fulton 14:40It is truly a commodity-

Brandon Burr 14:41Yep

Tim Fulton 14:41... and that's not, unless you're going to a very specific kind of coffee shop, it's going to continue to be a commodity for people.

Brandon Burr 14:49Right.

Tim Fulton 14:49Can you give me sort of a, a brief rundown of what a customer who maybe drinks Folgers, what can you know about c- coffee? For instance, what's the difference between light and dark roast coffee?

Brandon Burr 15:02So light and dark roast, uh, can be several things. I can, I can... A lot of people equate it to time.

Tim Fulton 15:09Okay.

Brandon Burr 15:09But I, I don't think that's a good way to, to say it. It's, it's more of a temperature thing. So if I light roast a coffee, I can light roast a coffee, and I can have light roasted coffee that's roasted for 20 minutes. I don't want it to be 20-minute long roast 'cause you're gonna bake it, and it's not gonna have any acidity, and it's gonna just taste bland.

Tim Fulton 15:26Okay.

Brandon Burr 15:27So dark roasted coffee can be roasted in five minutes if you just crank up the heat high enough. It's about light... The difference between light roasted and dark roasted coffee is just the way that you caramelize the sugars and the, the way that you, when you dump it, at what temperature. Typically, you dump light roasted coffee at 4:00 to 4:15 or something like that.

Tim Fulton 15:45And so what's the difference for the customer, then?

Brandon Burr 15:48For the customer, I'd say it's just flavor. So people light roast coffee to highlight the true flavor of the coffee, whereas people dark roast coffee to kinda disguise. This isn't always necessarily the, you know, the way that it is, but for us, you might dark roast a coffee if there's some imperfections in the bean. You might dark roast a coffee because that's the way that you like to drink it. So I'm not gonna say that light roasted coffee is better than dark roasted coffee.

Tim Fulton 16:14But you're saying that light roasted coffee-

Brandon Burr 16:16But if-

Tim Fulton 16:16... is better than dark roasted coffee

Brandon Burr 16:17... if I, if I have a 90-plus point coffee, I'm not gonna dark roast the flavor out of it-

Tim Fulton 16:22Right

Brandon Burr 16:22... because it's just been, there's t- been too much attention paid to that, you know, that bean to get it to that point, and I don't, I don't wanna get rid of those flavors.

Tim Fulton 16:30But I imagine that there are some beans that lend themselves a little bit more to dark roasting.

Brandon Burr 16:35Ab- absolutely. Like, I like dark roasted Guatemalan coffees, like really high-grown Guatemalan coffees because they're typically really chocolatey, and they have a lot of lemon acidity to them, so there's a lot of citric acid that's formed and malic acids that's formed. And so it's usually really, really bright if you light roast it. If you take it just a little bit further, you, you can kind of tame that acidity, and, uh, you can do that light roasted as well, but I like that chocolatey note, that dark chocolate note that you get out of it.

Tim Fulton 17:01You referenced a 93-point coffee.

Brandon Burr 17:03Yeah.

Tim Fulton 17:03What do you mean by that?

Brandon Burr 17:05So coffee, um, specialty coffee is anything over 80 points, and we have this scale. And so that cupping, the cupping protocol and procedure, we use a form, and it, it puts a, a number value to each aspect of the coffee, like acidity and, and sweetness and body and so on and so forth.

Tim Fulton 17:23But this is not a, it's not like the Olympics-

Brandon Burr 17:25No

Tim Fulton 17:25... where there's a judge in the corner. It's literally you guys are g- given the standards that you're aware of-

Brandon Burr 17:31Yep

Tim Fulton 17:31... you guys rank the coffee.

Brandon Burr 17:33Absolutely, and that's part of this, you know, this Q Grader thing, the, that I, the certification that I have, is to make sure that everyone's talking the same language, that everyone's calibrated enough that they can say this- ... is a 93-point coffee, and you got a bunch of people that can agree upon that so that we can talk the same language. We wanna make sure that when I rate something a 91-point coffee, someone's not gonna rate it a 99 or a, a 79, you know, that we're all around the same, same number.

Tim Fulton 18:00But that score, the higher it is, it is truly, quote-unquote, better coffee.

Brandon Burr 18:04Absolutely. Anything over 90 is outstanding.

Tim Fulton 18:07Okay. What rank are the coffees that are served at the two customer-facing locations in Columbus?

Brandon Burr 18:13So we have anywhere from 86-point blend to, um, a 95, rated 95-point coffee.

Tim Fulton 18:21Okay.

Brandon Burr 18:22So it just de- it de- just depends on what you want, you know? Uh, our espresso just-

Tim Fulton 18:26Well, why wouldn't someone want the higher ranked coffee?

Brandon Burr 18:29Because typically you wanna pay a little bit more attention to the brewing variables when you're, when you're brewing a 93-point coffee rather than an 87-point coffee or, you know, something like that. I, I just think that if someone wants something very good, very fast, good things come with time. So if, if you wait five minutes, I can brew you a fantastic cup of 87-point coffee or a fantastic cup of 93-point coffee. I think that it just is what the consumer wants, so the c- consumer demands speed, efficiency-

Tim Fulton 19:00Right

Brandon Burr 19:01... so, uh, it's really hard to deliver-

Tim Fulton 19:02'Cause there's a difference between you guys brewing it back there with like a pour-over-

Brandon Burr 19:06Right

Tim Fulton 19:06... and you guys handing over a cup and letting them go to the corner and pour it for themselves.

Brandon Burr 19:11Right.

Tim Fulton 19:11Talk about sort of the different, what are the different options for the ways that somebody can brew it for you there at the coffee shop?

Brandon Burr 19:19So we have, we have so many different methods. I mean, we, uh, w- well, let's-

Tim Fulton 19:24What are the, what are the call-outs that a customer can do?

Brandon Burr 19:27So if, if you want it in a Chemex, you can get it in a Chemex. If you want it-

Tim Fulton 19:31What's a Chemex?

Brandon Burr 19:31A Chemex is a, it's a, a glass vessel and it has a very, very fine paper filter. I mean, it's been around forever. I think it got its patent in like 1941.

Tim Fulton 19:41Okay.

Brandon Burr 19:42And, uh, they used to actually blow the glass here in the United States, and now that's outsourced, but they're still made in Pennsylvania. It's just a really pretty, um, piece of coffee equipment. It's actually in the Museum of Modern, Modern Art.

Tim Fulton 19:55Okay.

Brandon Burr 19:55But it produces a fantastic cup of coffee. So it's just a, it's a cone pour-over, so you just have a cone shape on the top. You pour water over the top of the coffee in a very specific way, and y- the resulting beverage is delicious. So then we have a clever coffee dripper, which is like, it uses the same principle as a home maker. Like, it has the, has the same kind of filter, like a number two, number four filter, and it's just a steep and release. So the coffee sits in there with hot water, and then you put it on top of a cup and it releases, and I really like that way. It's like a cleaned-up French press-

Tim Fulton 20:30Okay

Brandon Burr 20:30... essentially. And then we have the French press. There's great versions of that, and there's okay versions of that. I'm not a huge fan of it because there's not a lot of purity in the cup, but again, like, if you're a dark roast person, French press just adds to that sensation. You know, gives you more body and gives you more of that carbonic flavor if you're into it. In addition to that, we have, uh, Hario V60, which is another cone. It's, uh, the filter isn't as fine as like a Chemex, so you get a lot of flavor notes out of it. A lot of like, a lot of the solubles come through that filter, so there's a lot of flavor highlights. So y- if you put a really not so great coffee into that kind of method, you would be highlighting some of those not so great flavors.

Tim Fulton 21:12Gotcha.

Brandon Burr 21:12So you need to have a good coffee for that method in my eyes.

Tim Fulton 21:15How would you recommend someone sort of discovering their favorite cup of coffee?

Brandon Burr 21:21I think that just, just being open-minded and trying as many things as you possibly can. You don't know if you like something until you try it.

Tim Fulton 21:29Absolutely.

Brandon Burr 21:29So if, uh, if you wanna try something, if you wanna come to our shops and try something and, uh, you're really confused on what to get or, just ask a barista and they should be able to guide you through the process and give you a good idea of what you might like-

Tim Fulton 21:45Or even s-

Brandon Burr 21:45... according to what you already do like.

Tim Fulton 21:46Or y- yeah, i- indeed, just walk up to them and say, "This is the kind of coffee I normally have."

Brandon Burr 21:51Right.

Tim Fulton 21:51How much do you judge people that, like, pour a ton of sugar in their coffee?

Brandon Burr 21:55No judgment. I mean, everyone's palate's-

Tim Fulton 21:57Great

Brandon Burr 21:57... everyone's palate's different.

Tim Fulton 21:59Okay.

Brandon Burr 21:59So I've seen people take, like, I saw someone take a 90, a mid-90 point coffee and put pumpkin syrup in it. And that just recently happened, and it hurt my heart a little bit.

Tim Fulton 22:11Right.

Brandon Burr 22:12But at the same time, if that person doesn't enjoy that cup of coffee and they had to put a little sugar in there to make it, uh, more-

Tim Fulton 22:18Palatable-

Brandon Burr 22:19Yeah

Tim Fulton 22:19... for them

Brandon Burr 22:20... abs- absolutely, then you know what? That's them, you know? There's, there's no judgment passed on those people. I-

Tim Fulton 22:25But it still hurts your heart a little bit.

Brandon Burr 22:26It does, 'cause I just know the hard work that went into it to put that pumpkin syrup into the coffee. So it's okay.

Tim Fulton 22:32Can you speak to the coffee scene in Columbus and sort of how you've seen it evolve and sort of what you like in cert- in terms of trends that are happening?

Brandon Burr 22:41Yeah. Absolutely. So I've been in coffee for over 10 years now, and when I first got into coffee, there was several-

Tim Fulton 22:47How did you get started in coffee? Just working as, as a barista, or-

Brandon Burr 22:51So yeah. So I kinda fell into it. I, I went to culinary school for a little bit and fell into a management job at a local coffee company and then just worked my way up and started getting into it a little bit more, and then found my way to Crimson Cup.

Tim Fulton 23:04Can I ask where that was?

Brandon Burr 23:05It was at Nordstrom Espresso Bar.

Tim Fulton 23:08Ah.

Brandon Burr 23:08Yes.

Tim Fulton 23:09Ah.

Brandon Burr 23:09So I, I, uh, it was a lot of fun. So yeah, it just, it just led me to Crimson Cup, which really made me evolve as a coffee professional. But Columbus in general has just become o- one of the best places for coffee in the United States. I think that we're super underrated, and people don't realize that-

Tim Fulton 23:26Well, under-recognized

Brandon Burr 23:27... under-recognized-

Tim Fulton 23:28Right

Brandon Burr 23:28... for sure, because people, people I think from Pittsburgh, from Dayton, from Cincinnati, I mean, even those, tho- all those places, Indianapolis, all those places have great roasters. I think that Columbus has a really good concentration of really high-end roasters. I mean, there's so many, so many good people in town doing a lot of, doing a lot of in- innovation, and that's the thing. If you want something different, you can come to Columbus and try what... I think we're, we're leading the pack, and they can try something that is new and exciting.

Tim Fulton 23:57Is there sort of any recognition for Columbus? You know, you see all these, you know, number six best place for young professionals-

Brandon Burr 24:04Right

Tim Fulton 24:05... and is Columbus sort of receiving accolades like that for its coffee?

Brandon Burr 24:08I think there's been a few articles here and there about it. We won, uh, Roaster of the Year. Through Roast Magazine and-

Tim Fulton 24:15Crimson Cup did

Brandon Burr 24:16... Crimson Cup did. Though that is about us, at the same time, I think things like that can only bring attention to the Columbus coffee market. You know, I had several roasters reach out to me and say, "Hey, man, congrats. Thanks for doing, you know, for pushing this through and, you know, doing a press release about this," because this is kind of a big deal for Columbus, and it brings more attention to everyone within the market, within the industry. More things like that can only help. And, you know, you got the guys down at OneLine going to competitions and stuff, getting a lot of accolades for that. You know, the guys at Briosso and Mission doing awesome things, Fox In The Snow, all these, all these different cafes that are doing some, some great things. And, uh, I think as we continue to grow as a community, and we get closer and closer and closer, and we start, start doing more events, the more recognition we're gonna get.

Tim Fulton 25:04Are there Columbus-centric events that people can check out to sample the different roastings, learn more, not just from... While I'm sure your experience from customer education is fantastic, if somebody wanted to sort of sample what Columbus has to offer, are those things available?

Brandon Burr 25:21Well, last weekend we had the, the Columbus Coffee Cr- Caffeine Crawl. That's a, that's an annual event, and that's something where this, this company out of Kansas City, Missouri, they, they do this in different cities around the United States, and they picked us up last year.

Tim Fulton 25:37Okay.

Brandon Burr 25:37And this year w- I think was a, a great success again. They had two days of tours, so a lot of people grabbed onto that and got to experience different, different coffee companies in, in Columbus. In addition to that, there's the Coffee Trail.

Tim Fulton 25:52Mm-hmm.

Brandon Burr 25:52You know, the, the, the Columbus Coffee Experience as well. I think as we grow, there's gonna have to be an event that highlights all of us roasters and all, all of the shops, 'cause, I mean, there's, there's a, I think there's a demand for it within the market.

Tim Fulton 26:07Great. Talk about sort of what guides your work in terms of sustainability, in terms of fair trade, and I know that b- given that it's a commodity, it's something that people talk about a lot.

Brandon Burr 26:20Right. So I think something that, that we are super passionate about is our own direct trade program. We call it Friend of Farmer, and it's, we have criteria for it, and we're actually developing it a little bit further and, and holding ourselves... We r- really wanna hold ourselves accountable for what we're saying we're doing, and we want people to be able to, um, see the traceability, 100% traceability to, to the process and to the product. We work within several different countries like Guatemala and Honduras and, you know, I was just in Peru for my third year down there, and we're doing some projects with these people, and we work with agronomists in those areas, and we, we really try to increase the quality of the cup, 'cause I personally think that that's part of sustainability, is-

Tim Fulton 27:06Mm-hmm

Brandon Burr 27:06... you know, consumers want higher, better graded coffee. We wanna provide that, and farmers need education, and, and bringing in agronomists from the local area into those farms to help, you know, educate is a, is a huge part of that.

Tim Fulton 27:20And I'm sorry, for those that don't know, what's an agronomist?

Brandon Burr 27:22An agronomist is someone that, uh, is familiar with agriculture. So-

Tim Fulton 27:26Okay

Brandon Burr 27:27... like, just, just production, cultivation of crops, and understanding botany, and I think that it's, it has to be area specific-

Tim Fulton 27:35Okay

Brandon Burr 27:35... 'cause, you know, soil is different in every area.

Tim Fulton 27:36It's different every- all around the world, right.

Brandon Burr 27:38Absolutely, and different varietals and, you know, different farming methods and cultures as well. I mean, you gotta, you gotta really understand the culture that, that is within that coffee-growing country. So I think that's something that we're super passionate about, is, is bringing that story to the consumers, again, bringing that transparency to the consumer so that they understand this is a person behind this cup, and there's, there's a lot of people that depend on you enjoying this cup of coffee, you know, and, uh, appreciating that it's, it's not just a small commodity product. It's, it's something greater. It's someone's livelihood.

Tim Fulton 28:10I just wanna turn it on its head just a little bit-

Brandon Burr 28:12Yeah

Tim Fulton 28:13... and say are there, what do you roll your eyes at, and, you know, what are the bad things that are happening? Gas station coffee.

Brandon Burr 28:20Right.

Tim Fulton 28:20Uh, Starbucks. Is there... Everybody's trying to provide a, a, this commodity-

Brandon Burr 28:26Right

Tim Fulton 28:26... a cup of coffee to people. What are the, quote-unquote, "bad ways" that that's happening?

Brandon Burr 28:31For me personally, I hate when we talk about origin-specific coffee at, like, really big, really big places, that they're just saying it because it's, it's sexy, or, you know, it, it-

Tim Fulton 28:42Because people like saying the word Guatemala?

Brandon Burr 28:44Yeah, Guatemala or Brazil, Brazilian coffee. And the, the reality behind a lot of those places is that, you know, they're buying commercial grade coffee.

Tim Fulton 28:54These are factory farms.

Brandon Burr 28:56Yes.

Tim Fulton 28:56Right.

Brandon Burr 28:56So, uh, factory farms are, these are farms that are, y- you know, these are collectors getting coffee from small farms that, you know, aren't being paid what they need to be paid or not being-

Tim Fulton 29:06Because there's a middleman-

Brandon Burr 29:07Absolutely

Tim Fulton 29:08... sort of acquiring things that simply go into a silo.

Brandon Burr 29:10Absolutely. There's good and bad in any industry, and people take advantage of other people, uh, especially when there's a lack of communication, but that's the great thing about the, the evolution of our world, the globalization. You know, I think that with, with the access to internet in the middle of nowhere, which is just insane to be-

Tim Fulton 29:28Right

Brandon Burr 29:28... in the middle of a, a jungle and have internet. I think that with that, farmers are being educated, and they're starting to understand what, what they need to know to sell their coffee, to sell their product. As, you know, the more they know about their product, the more, the more money they can get for it or the better they can represent it. And I think that, you know, there's just a lot of companies out there that push the, the sexy side of coffee when the reality of the situation is it's someone's livelihood, and it, it, you know, we've, we've gotta treat it like that.

Tim Fulton 29:56While I'm sure you guys aren't the cheapest coffee supplier-

Brandon Burr 29:59Right

Tim Fulton 30:00... can you speak to the economics and sort of the financial end of it, and how are you able to, while selling this commodity, where you need to keep the margins as tight as you can-

Brandon Burr 30:08Right

Tim Fulton 30:09... able to invest the time in, one, doing those travels, making relationships with farmers, having an innovation lab where you're truly sort of linking up the coffee that you discover and then finding the best way to roast it in order to gain the ranking that, that it can, that a cup-

Brandon Burr 30:27Right

Tim Fulton 30:27... of coffee can. Because I imagine some beans can't be a 96.

Brandon Burr 30:31Right.

Tim Fulton 30:31So-

Brandon Burr 30:32No, that's the case for sure

Tim Fulton 30:33... is it simply sort of that's your goal, and so that's why you do it that way?

Brandon Burr 30:37I mean, yes. I mean, that's, that's such a great question. I, I think-

Tim Fulton 30:42How do you do it?

Brandon Burr 30:43How do we do it? Open communication relationships. So it's, it's funny, like, going from a corporate setting to going to a small business setting, usually you find it to be a little bit more lax in the small business, and it's not... You know, there's not as many, like, things that are black and white. There's a lot of gray.

Tim Fulton 30:59Mm-hmm.

Brandon Burr 31:00I think that, um, it's even greater in the coffee industry, you know, going from corporate coffee to, to regular, like, to o- like, a small business like us. We... There's a lot of gray. There's a lot of feelings, and in business, you know, that might not necessarily be the best way to, to look at things. But at the same time, we're all people, and, uh, it doesn't matter if you're in, in the jungles of, you know, Papua New Guinea, or if you're in New York City, we should all be treated the same, and we should all, we should all have open relationships with ether- w- with each other, and open communication and understanding. And so I think that us just being completely honest and saying, "Hey, we need to make this mutually beneficial. I wanna help you, but at the same time, I have those cost of goods that I have to worry about."

Tim Fulton 31:47Right.

Brandon Burr 31:47"I'm a business, and I... And, and, you know, uh..." Greg has to think about it all the time, like, you know, "I've gotta support these 50 employees," or whatever. And so there's, there's numbers that go into it, but at the same time, there's feelings, and there's, there's relationships, and I think that a solid foundation, a, a good relationship will get you further in the future. It's, it's long-term investment, and again, it's sustainability rather than instant gratification.

Tim Fulton 32:12Great. Brandon, thank you so much for your time.

Brandon Burr 32:14No, thank you, man.

Tim Fulton 32:15Yeah.

Brandon Burr 32:16Really appreciate it.

Tim Fulton 32:19This week, the Confluence Cast is sponsored by Destination Donuts. Their unique, decadent donuts use quality ingredients. They never put any preservatives, additives, or other fake stuff in their goodies, and they strive to use locally sourced ingredients whenever possible. Swing by their locations in the North Market and select coffee shops throughout Columbus to take care of your donut fix. You'll be glad you did. Check out their flavors and locations at destinationdonuts.com. Sitting down here with Jeff Davis, owner of Cafe Brioso, celebrating round about 15 years in business on East Gay Street. Just this year, is that right, opened the Long Street location?

Jeff Davis 33:04January 4th.

Tim Fulton 33:05Great, great. And how's Long Street going?

Jeff Davis 33:07It's going very well. You know, the point of that expansion was to expand our coffee brand and our production ability, so that was number one, nailing down all that, working with now a satellite location in two locations, ironing out how the coffee flows.

Tim Fulton 33:19Mm.

Jeff Davis 33:19That's gone very well. Uh, we're starting to see a lot more cup traffic 'cause we have a coffee bar there as well-

Tim Fulton 33:25Okay

Jeff Davis 33:26... uh, with the students of CCAD and Columbus State coming back, and-

Tim Fulton 33:29Yeah

Jeff Davis 33:29... having, you know, nine months of business in, we're, we're now starting to see some very good cup traffic, so.

Tim Fulton 33:35Well, that, um, kinda sucks that it had to wait so long for that sort of traffic to increase, right?

Jeff Davis 33:41We knew it was gonna be a long wait when we signed the lease. So we knew we had, you know, a year plus before the landlord was gonna work on the space and, and we would be in there. And then of course there were delays on top of that.

Tim Fulton 33:53Right.

Jeff Davis 33:54Uh, you know, so the goal had been to open before school started up in the fall-

Tim Fulton 33:58Okay

Jeff Davis 33:59... of 2015.

Tim Fulton 34:00Okay.

Jeff Davis 34:00And then we got open in January. You know, it's winter. The students were gone for a while. The residential neighborhood is being built all around us.

Tim Fulton 34:09Yeah.

Jeff Davis 34:09So that's a... You know, people moving in all the time, but everything is still being built.

Tim Fulton 34:14Right. Let's, uh, let's go back 15 years.

Jeff Davis 34:16Okay.

Tim Fulton 34:17How did you start Brioso?

Jeff Davis 34:19Well, I started in the coffee business in 1995. I was fortunate enough to get a job at Stauf's Coffee Roasters, which was really, you know, pretty much the only game in town. Uh, Crimson Cup obviously existed back then, too, but they... I see Stauf's as really what started the specialty coffee movement in Columbus.

Tim Fulton 34:36Mm-hmm.

Jeff Davis 34:36You know, going back as late, early as 1988, I think they opened. Uh, so I was lucky to pursue a job and, and get a job in the production space at Stauf's, and, you know, I worked my butt off every day, uh, until I got an opportunity to train to roast, uh, become-

Tim Fulton 34:52'Cause you were doing, like, delivery work at that time.

Jeff Davis 34:54Yeah, I started as a delivery driver, the person that, uh, added the flavoring to the flavor-added coffee.

Tim Fulton 35:00Okay. Is that just dumping a bag of sugar-

Jeff Davis 35:03So that's just, you know-

Tim Fulton 35:03... into something, or?

Jeff Davis 35:04Uh, there, there are specific, uh, flavor oils they're called-

Tim Fulton 35:07Okay

Jeff Davis 35:07... where you would apply them to the beans as a percentage by weight.

Tim Fulton 35:11Oh, okay. So this is not, like, pouring-

Jeff Davis 35:13So all, all post-roast

Tim Fulton 35:13... in the sugary syrup into-

Jeff Davis 35:15Right.

Tim Fulton 35:15Okay. And you came to Columbus to be a student at, uh, Capital.

Jeff Davis 35:19I went to school at Capital, yes.

Tim Fulton 35:20And what'd you study there?

Jeff Davis 35:21Political science.

Tim Fulton 35:22And how does that translate into coffee?

Jeff Davis 35:24It does not.

Tim Fulton 35:25Okay.

Jeff Davis 35:26Uh, I g- I learned enough about political science to learn that I don't think that's the world for me.

Tim Fulton 35:31Okay. That's fair. That's fair.

Jeff Davis 35:33You know, I'm kind of a blue collar guy. I like, I like hands-on work. You know, obviously politics still interests me greatly, but, uh, coffee is my passion.

Tim Fulton 35:41Okay. Talk to me about how Brioso actually got started.

Jeff Davis 35:44Well, I'd gotten a little burned out at Stauf's and, and left, but I had really developed my skills specifically to cupping, tasting coffee, and roasting coffee.

Tim Fulton 35:54And can you sort of define cupping?

Jeff Davis 35:56Uh, cupping is just the process of evaluating green coffee for purchase-

Tim Fulton 36:01Okay

Jeff Davis 36:01... really is how I use it. It's the language that producers, exporters, importers, roasters would all use to communicate about the qualities of coffee.

Tim Fulton 36:10Gotcha. And so you'd gained some expertise and said, "I don't necessarily want another job. I don't necessarily wanna work for another person."

Jeff Davis 36:19I sought out the coffee business and getting a job at Stauf's because I needed to wake up every day and go to work to do something that I love to do and was passionate about, regardless of how much money I was making or any other circumstances other than I cannot wait to get to work.

Tim Fulton 36:35Okay.

Jeff Davis 36:35So that's really what drew me to the coffee business. I guess I'd always been kind of an entrepreneurial-minded person, you know, without ha-Having a clear idea of what I wanted to do, always wanted to have my own business. Then when I had the skill and was able to develop the skill of, of roasting coffee, I thought it was time to kinda take the plunge. I wasn't really actively working on another business when I left Stauf's, but my mom called me one day and said, you know, knew it was a dream to own my own business. I had talked about opening a coffee place. She calls me and says, "Hey, we have a little bit of seed money. I want you to get started on this full-time." That was, that was the call that got it, you know, and then really the next morning, you know, that's my full-time job.

Tim Fulton 37:11And so that's when you start looking for spaces, when you start figuring out, you know-

Jeff Davis 37:16Yeah, I hired a com- I hired a business consultant first.

Tim Fulton 37:18Okay, smart.

Jeff Davis 37:18You know, had definitely done a lot of reading.

Tim Fulton 37:20What was that process like? For tho- for those that are thinking about starting their own business, that's obviously a way to do it. What was it like working with a business consultant, getting it all going?

Jeff Davis 37:30Uh, I think that he kinda just took worrying about the whole big thing away from me, and then fed me weekly, you know, we would have a weekly meeting, and then each week he would feed me the next step and give me a list of homework.

Tim Fulton 37:41Okay.

Jeff Davis 37:42I don't think that I could have done it nearly as well without a business consultant. It was-

Tim Fulton 37:46Certainly not as efficiently

Jeff Davis 37:47... a little bit of an investment, but it wasn't a reach-

Tim Fulton 37:50Right

Jeff Davis 37:50... at all, and I thought that was, you know, maybe the best money that I had spent on the whole project-

Tim Fulton 37:55Right

Jeff Davis 37:55... right from the get-go.

Tim Fulton 37:56Is it sort of a process where the first week they're like, "Okay, now you get incorporated. Now you set up a bank account. Now you look for a location."

Jeff Davis 38:03Yes.

Tim Fulton 38:03"Now you price out the cost of build-out. Now you price out the cost of equipment." You then go and do the homework, bring it back to them, and they may even say, "Uh, this doesn't seem reasonable."

Jeff Davis 38:15Right.

Tim Fulton 38:15Okay.

Jeff Davis 38:16Yes.

Tim Fulton 38:16Were there points like that where you were like, "I want the biggest roaster so that I can go into..." 'Cause you weren't in wholesale, you guys were just doing, you were just roasting for yourselves at that point.

Jeff Davis 38:25Yeah, I was only, as far as the, the roaster was concerned, was only focused on roasting coffee for us.

Tim Fulton 38:31Right. Do you guys roast at the Gay Street location anymore?

Jeff Davis 38:33No.

Tim Fulton 38:34Okay.

Jeff Davis 38:34There'll be bigger and better things to come for that location.

Tim Fulton 38:38Why is that?

Jeff Davis 38:38Well, one, just the practical, you know, it, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I wasn't really sure when we opened the roastery how I was gonna handle that, just because it was part of the neighborhood, and, and me being there, and the roaster being there, you know, sells a lot of beans, brings people into the store. It's just been part of, of that corner for 15 years, and-

Tim Fulton 38:57Right

Jeff Davis 38:57... I wasn't sure what was gonna happen with that. Mainly at this point, you know, the neighborhood is evolving and changing, and there's big investment going on surrounding our location, and, you know, we need to kind of reinvest and, and renovate the store to match that, and match what the neighborhood-

Tim Fulton 39:12Yeah, so what you're saying is getting more seats in there, being able to sort of serve more people, because that's the primary business of that location.

Jeff Davis 39:19Yeah, kind of fixing some of the mistakes that I made in the 15 years ago on the design.

Tim Fulton 39:23Okay.

Jeff Davis 39:24Uh, being a little bit more high volume, uh, being able to improve our kitchen, mainly with the space and equipment and facilities which will allow us to do more and more interesting food, potentially stuff on the weekends like brunch.

Tim Fulton 39:36What other mistakes do you think that you made at the time that you opened, or what other sort of mistakes did you make in the past-

Jeff Davis 39:43I mean, the-

Tim Fulton 39:43... 15 years?

Jeff Davis 39:44... the location, finding the space was very difficult. You know-

Tim Fulton 39:47Okay

Jeff Davis 39:47... we had done our homework on all the neighborhoods that were good neighborhoods. Most of them were either... Most of them were connected to downtown, so they were centrally located, but it wasn't downtown. All the neighborhoods connecting, Clintonville was a-

Tim Fulton 39:58Appealing

Jeff Davis 39:58... probably the-

Tim Fulton 39:59Yeah

Jeff Davis 39:59... the top choice at the time, and I just wasn't... was getting very discouraged, honestly, about finding the space. We had not looked at downtown, so I drove downtown, parked in the alley, and said, "I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna walk all these streets and see something that visually appeals to me. This is where I wanna come to work every day."

Tim Fulton 40:16Well, and for those that don't know, Gay Street was a lot different back then.

Jeff Davis 40:20Yeah, you know, downtown was, was rough. It wasn't very appealing, but Gay, Gay Street actually kind of stood out-

Tim Fulton 40:26Okay

Jeff Davis 40:26... with all the small buildings that were left. It had that charming appeal, especially to pedestrians.

Tim Fulton 40:31Still a walkable little strip.

Jeff Davis 40:33Still walkable. You know, all the changes that have been made since we've been there have, you know, really made it much more walkable.

Tim Fulton 40:38Fantastic. Fantastic.

Jeff Davis 40:39So I s- I saw that the, you know, the city and other business leaders had identified that corridor as a place that's gonna do well and help bring downtown up.

Tim Fulton 40:49When did you make the decision to basically expand, to move into the Long Street location?

Jeff Davis 40:54Well, I knew when it would get uncomfortable with the production of the coffee and the roasting that it would be time to get a bigger machine.

Tim Fulton 41:01Okay.

Jeff Davis 41:01So we had hit that point and been there for a couple years where, you know, that roaster is maxed out.

Tim Fulton 41:08Okay. You're literally roasting as much as you possibly can-

Jeff Davis 41:11Right

Tim Fulton 41:11... and still trying to keep up.

Jeff Davis 41:12So initially I looked at, you know, upgrading our production capabilities in the context of staying in the space, which just was not possible. A larger roaster was not gonna fit in there. Uh, other problems like getting green coffee delivered at the corner of High and Gay became very difficult.

Tim Fulton 41:28Okay.

Jeff Davis 41:29Uh-

Tim Fulton 41:29Well, I imagine some storage issues too, right?

Jeff Davis 41:31You know, we were storing coffee in the basement, so we would unload bags, sometimes possibly from High Street while sitting in the bus lane, move them one by one into the elevator, down to the basement, move them back up when you need to start using them. It was a lot of work and very inefficient.

Tim Fulton 41:46And that's not a great elevator, I have to say.

Jeff Davis 41:48No. So it was clear if we were going to do more with our production, we needed to do it somewhere else.

Tim Fulton 41:55Okay. And you chose to stay in downtown. It is a less sort of traveled, less pedestrian-friendly area of downtown, but it's certainly not, you know, a warehouse district or s- you know, something by the airport.

Jeff Davis 42:05Right. We had kinda looked at, at a warehouse first. We would've been able to get up and running a lot sooner. The very first thing I did was purchase the roaster-

Tim Fulton 42:13Okay

Jeff Davis 42:13... and then went to find a space. Uh-

Tim Fulton 42:15Was that cart before the horse a little bit?

Jeff Davis 42:17Uh, yeah, I guess looking back it, it turned out that way.

Tim Fulton 42:20Okay. Not to be critical at all.

Jeff Davis 42:21I, I, I don't... Well, it was a, a unique situation where the roaster was in the United States because it was at the annual coffee convention.

Tim Fulton 42:29Okay.

Jeff Davis 42:30So it had already been imported, there was a discount. It was an opportunity that needed to be jumped on right away.

Tim Fulton 42:35Is it fair to say that that was actually the impetus for going ahead and moving forward with the new space?

Jeff Davis 42:40Yeah.

Tim Fulton 42:40Okay, awesome.

Jeff Davis 42:41It, it had to happen, but something has to happen first, you know?

Tim Fulton 42:44Right.

Jeff Davis 42:44The first domino has to fall.

Tim Fulton 42:45Sometimes that's the way that stuff happens.

Jeff Davis 42:47So it turns out that that's the way that it was. We had looked at moving into a warehouse. I, I like being able to sell cups of coffee next to the roaster.

Tim Fulton 42:55Okay.

Jeff Davis 42:55I like the process being visible. I like people coming into the store. You know, I like interacting with customers.

Tim Fulton 43:01Well, and seeing the whole process. Now, where do you purchase most of your beans from?

Jeff Davis 43:07I use a couple bigger coffee importers-

Tim Fulton 43:09Okay

Jeff Davis 43:09... that actually own their own warehouses in the US. So they're the only two importers that own their warehouses.

Tim Fulton 43:15You know it's coming and when it's coming.

Jeff Davis 43:16Yes, they're, they're very good with getting the coffee to us on time. I've worked with both for a long time. One of them, I've worked with almost our entire history.

Tim Fulton 43:25Okay.

Jeff Davis 43:26And I work with a, a direct trade relationship with a coffee farmer in Colombia that I'm in contact with, you know, through text messaging, Facebook, other social media, email, on a regular basis.

Tim Fulton 43:37Uh-huh.

Jeff Davis 43:37And they've actually been to our shop numerous times. Another, what I would call a boutique importer, called 90+ Coffee. Really super high-end coffees, very limited, very small amounts.

Tim Fulton 43:47What is the name of the score? 90+ is a reference-

Jeff Davis 43:4990, yes, 90+ is a reference to the cupping score.

Tim Fulton 43:53Right.

Jeff Davis 43:53So their company was kinda based on the idea that we're only gonna bring in coffees that would score above a 90 out of 100 in the cupping score, with the goal of getting multiples of the market prices that farmers are paid for coffee, getting them multiples of that in return for cup quality.

Tim Fulton 44:10So in addition to trying to maintain sort of a fair trade business model, you've also done a little bit of endeavoring and moving towards endeavoring into social enterprise activities. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jeff Davis 44:22Yeah. Uh, we have a relationship with Starfish Alliance that serves the foster care community in central Ohio, all age groups. The specific program we're involved with is Link 22, serve foster kids who have turned 18 and were not adopted by their foster parents.

Tim Fulton 44:39They've aged out.

Jeff Davis 44:40They've aged out. Like, I was in college, and, and, and most of us, you have support system-

Tim Fulton 44:45Mm-hmm

Jeff Davis 44:46... of parents, family members, friends, places to crash, you know?

Tim Fulton 44:50Right.

Jeff Davis 44:50And if you need money, you're in a tough spot, you have somebody to go to to help you. These kids don't have that. They might not have the, the mentoring that you need in early adulthood to, to kinda find your way. So I, I thought that, that coffee and our training program would be a really good fit for those kids to kinda teach them communication, life skills, uh, you know, simple things like following recipes, working with other people.

Tim Fulton 45:15Right.

Jeff Davis 45:15Um-

Tim Fulton 45:15And while it is a pretty specific trade that l- you just outlined certainly a lot of skills that are applicable in a lot of different areas. So what, what is the nature of your partnership, then? Is it, is it simply the training and-

Jeff Davis 45:27Yeah, we had worked on a concept to open a very small coffee bar, and we would train them. Eventually, they would run the coffee bar, and there would be kind of a tiered training based on, based on success. So if you're successfully have become a barista, then, then next we're gonna start working on you being a manager.

Tim Fulton 45:45Okay.

Jeff Davis 45:45If you've successfully become a manager, then we're gonna train you to think like an entrepreneur and a business owner.

Tim Fulton 45:50Is this a project that's still in process, like-

Jeff Davis 45:52So the, the coffee bar-

Tim Fulton 45:54... still trying to make that happen?

Jeff Davis 45:54... the coffee bar idea is off the table for the moment.

Tim Fulton 45:57Okay.

Jeff Davis 45:57Uh, and so we're working on an internship with hopefully at least two interns that we will train regular baristas for our company, and they'll also have a... The enterprise piece would be the interns kinda developing their own coffee brand, maybe engaging in some markets that the Brioso Coffee doesn't and might be a better fit for them, like office coffee, fundraiser type of coffee, to pay for their internship.

Tim Fulton 46:21That's great.

Jeff Davis 46:22And then, and then all of the, the entire program, Link 22, that Starfish is doing, we will use the Brioso Coffee space for all. There's a number of other organizations and, and layers to the program that don't directly involve us.

Tim Fulton 46:35Gotcha. Let's turn a little bit. Since you've opened the Long Street location, you are doing wholesale now.

Jeff Davis 46:41Yes.

Tim Fulton 46:42How's that going in terms of business development, and what sort of main lines of work have you been in?

Jeff Davis 46:47You know, we were very confident in our product.

Tim Fulton 46:50Okay.

Jeff Davis 46:50But when we start looking at getting serious about, about wholesaling, there was just a lot of things due to the nature of the business at Cafe Brioso, how busy... You know, it's a high-volume cafe.

Tim Fulton 47:01Mm-hmm.

Jeff Davis 47:01You really are just kind of reactive to what happens every day, and-

Tim Fulton 47:05Right, you're putting out fires

Jeff Davis 47:06... not proactive.

Tim Fulton 47:06Right.

Jeff Davis 47:06So, you know, being in that space gave us some time to sit down and be more proactive about it, and, you know, we... At this point, we've kinda determined that we have a lot of work to do before we really wanna make a push to do a lot of wholesaling.

Tim Fulton 47:19It's fair to say you are literally in a time of transition-

Jeff Davis 47:22Yes

Tim Fulton 47:22... of like, you've gotten that Long Street location up-

Jeff Davis 47:24Yes

Tim Fulton 47:24... and, like, now you're sort of able to stand up, look over, you know, your domain, and say, "Okay, what do we do now?"

Jeff Davis 47:30And we, and we also have to, to manage a high-volume cafe-

Tim Fulton 47:34Right

Jeff Davis 47:34... from a, from almost another location. You know, I'm at both locations every day.

Tim Fulton 47:38Okay.

Jeff Davis 47:38But I'm trying to learn how to manage that place without me being there all the time, and I, I think that was a bit of an adjustment.

Tim Fulton 47:44Is that difficult for you-

Jeff Davis 47:45Yeah, we-

Tim Fulton 47:46... to sort of take your hands off a little bit more?

Jeff Davis 47:47You know, we, well, we took, we took strong people out of that location and put them into the new location, and then just the whole new thing of having two businesses.

Tim Fulton 47:55Right.

Jeff Davis 47:55It's entirely different.

Tim Fulton 47:56Yeah. Other than having two businesses and sort of the added just labor on you, what do you find is the most difficult part of owning a business? Is it sort of managing those people? Is it the business hoops that you have to jump through? Is it the budgeting? Is it the finance? What, what, what are the things that you not necessarily struggle with, but certainly take up a lot more time than you thought was going to?

Jeff Davis 48:17Day to day, it's, it's managing the people.

Tim Fulton 48:19Okay.

Jeff Davis 48:19Personally, I'd say I struggle more with the, the office type of work, you know, being a hands-on guy, being a coffee roaster.

Tim Fulton 48:26Because you don't wanna go to the back office-

Jeff Davis 48:28Right

Tim Fulton 48:28... and do it. Right.

Jeff Davis 48:30I, I'm in the office and I can hear what's going on, uh, in the cafe, and I would certainly much rather be there. You know, the finance, the numbers-

Tim Fulton 48:38Doing payroll sucks, man

Jeff Davis 48:39... staying on top of that, I do have some... My mom is a partner in the business, and she's-

Tim Fulton 48:43Okay

Jeff Davis 48:43... a fantastic help, coming down a couple days and really helping with the bulk of the office work. Now, technology has changed quite a bit since we've opened, and have definitely made all the numbers and dollars, made that much, much easier-

Tim Fulton 48:57You don't have a notebook anymore

Jeff Davis 48:58... to deal with and stay on top of it

Tim Fulton 48:58You have a laptop, right?

Jeff Davis 49:00Right.

Tim Fulton 49:00Because you are from Kenton, Ohio.

Jeff Davis 49:01Small town, northwest Ohio.

Tim Fulton 49:03And so your mom's still up there-

Jeff Davis 49:04Yes

Tim Fulton 49:04... and comes down?

Jeff Davis 49:05Comes down-

Tim Fulton 49:06Awesome

Jeff Davis 49:06... a couple days a week.

Tim Fulton 49:07Jeff, can you talk a little bit about sort of the experience at Briosso, what you see a customer experiencing, and also sort of what you wish a customer would know about coffee? I think that a vast majority of the population drinks it. I don't know that they know a whole lot about it.

Jeff Davis 49:22Yeah, I could probably talk for hours-

Tim Fulton 49:24Okay

Jeff Davis 49:24... on that question. Just to back up a little bit, we're coffee guys. We're kinda coffee nerds. Everyone is very passionate about what we do and, and has their own love story with coffee. Um-

Tim Fulton 49:35Okay. Do you... Uh, other than Stauf's, do you have a love story?

Jeff Davis 49:38I mean, my... You know, before I worked at Stauf's, that, my, what turned me on was going to Stauf's and buying single origin coffee, uh, not putting cream and sugar in it, you know, in the context of the '90s, preparing it well-

Tim Fulton 49:50Mm-hmm

Jeff Davis 49:50... and just being blown away at the flavors that are in the coffee.

Tim Fulton 49:55Well, and the diversity that's there, right?

Jeff Davis 49:57So I think that's always been in my mind. You know, we're, we're kinda purists. Our, our job is to buy really good green coffee. Then we process it by roasting it, and then we use water to extract flavors from it.

Tim Fulton 50:10Okay.

Jeff Davis 50:10And that's all that we do for every process that we have. So we, we try to keep it-

Tim Fulton 50:15But there is a lot that goes into that.

Jeff Davis 50:15Yeah, you know, but we try to keep it simple and, you know, to not get off-track on what we're doing.

Tim Fulton 50:21Okay.

Jeff Davis 50:21Half the quality in your cup of coffee, uh, half of that comes from the green coffee that was used. The other half of it's gonna come from the processing and the grinding and the extracting. So at the cafe, you know, my job is to source the coffee, uh, which would be a process of, of getting green coffee in, sample roasting it, cupping it. Uh, one thing that's changed with the new place is that will now involve more of the staff, instead of just really solely being my job, and-

Tim Fulton 50:47Well, 'cause you're able to in terms of space, right?

Jeff Davis 50:50Right.

Tim Fulton 50:50Right.

Jeff Davis 50:50So that, that's been something that's really cool, is to get everybody cupping and to have more input on the process of what coffee I'm buying. 'Cause then when we bring it in, those employees that participated in that have ownership of that already. They know that coffee already. They know what to expect.

Tim Fulton 51:05They can talk about it.

Jeff Davis 51:06They had a hand in bringing it here.

Tim Fulton 51:06They have a passion in selling it.

Jeff Davis 51:08And they're, they're making it their own when they're, they're selling it to people. You know, that's really, from the customer's standpoint, our experience is very one-on-one, and we rely on verbal communication to really provide the great experience. We don't have a lot of printed materials. We don't have a lot of stuff to read. You know, we train our people to be able to articulate our products and services to customers.

Tim Fulton 51:30Right.

Jeff Davis 51:31And, you know, you really, you kinda have to feel out each individual customer to find out where they're at in their coffee journey and the things that they like. The language sometimes gets confusing, 'cause people, coffee shops use different language, you know?

Tim Fulton 51:45Well, and it's a whole culture.

Jeff Davis 51:45The, the national chain has their own language-

Tim Fulton 51:48Right

Jeff Davis 51:49... that none of the rest of us use.

Tim Fulton 51:50So they just-

Jeff Davis 51:50It can get-

Tim Fulton 51:51... they just made up on their own

Jeff Davis 51:52... it can get confusing.

Tim Fulton 51:53Right. What are some of the basic things that you find that people don't know about coffee? Again, it's green, you roast it, you then use water to extract the flavors.

Jeff Davis 52:01I think one of the biggest things to, that's hard to understand unless you work with coffee every day, is how much it changes.

Tim Fulton 52:07Okay.

Jeff Davis 52:08It's never in a state of equilibrium, whether it's on the tree, whether it's in the green form or roasted form. Uh, it will change faster or slower at different points in that change. And, and at the higher end, you know, even if we've done everything well, it's gonna change from day to day. The same coffee is gonna change a little bit over time.

Tim Fulton 52:27What's an ideal amount of time from roast to brew?

Jeff Davis 52:30Uh, we like to work with everything within a couple weeks.

Tim Fulton 52:33Oh, okay.

Jeff Davis 52:34Uh, depending on, on where we're gonna plug it in, espresso can last a little bit longer. I definitely wouldn't want anyone buying, purchasing bean coffee or ground and taking it home that was beyond two weeks-

Tim Fulton 52:45Okay

Jeff Davis 52:46... assuming that they're gonna consume it in the next two weeks.

Tim Fulton 52:49How do you-

Jeff Davis 52:49So I, I would like everything to be consumed within a month of coming out of the roaster at worst.

Tim Fulton 52:53Okay. Talk to me a little bit about the Columbus coffee culture and sort of what you've seen over the past 15 years.

Jeff Davis 53:00Well, I guess, uh, when we opened the cafe in 2001, there were really two players in the market.

Tim Fulton 53:06Two games in town, right?

Jeff Davis 53:08Yeah, uh, Stauf's and, and Crimson Cup.

Tim Fulton 53:10Okay.

Jeff Davis 53:10Crimson Cup, I believe, did not have a storefront, was just a, a wholesale roasting facility at that point.

Tim Fulton 53:16Right.

Jeff Davis 53:16Uh, the, the third wave coffee is starting to take hold in other places, like San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, more West Coast happening first.

Tim Fulton 53:25What do you mean by third wave?

Jeff Davis 53:27Uh, sometimes we describe the industry in, in waves-

Tim Fulton 53:31Right

Jeff Davis 53:32... as far as, like, what its focus was. Uh, first wave, second wave, third wave.

Tim Fulton 53:36Right.

Jeff Davis 53:36You know, the, the market is just learning about specialty coffee. So there was a lot of focus on roast, large lattes with gobs of flavored syrups. You come into a coffee shop, and there's, there's 100 choices of syrups that you can add with whipped cream on top. So we're making, you know-

Tim Fulton 53:51Do you make that-

Jeff Davis 53:51... we're making milkshakes. Uh-

Tim Fulton 53:53It's not coffee.

Jeff Davis 53:54It's-

Tim Fulton 53:54Is that what you're saying?

Jeff Davis 53:55That's not... It's a milkshake.

Tim Fulton 53:56Okay. That's fair.

Jeff Davis 53:57But if that's your-

Tim Fulton 53:58That's absolutely fair

Jeff Davis 53:59... if, if that's your access point to coffee, like, I don't wanna be a coffee snob and, and sit here and say that that offends me, because that's bringing people into the market. Eventually, some of those people are gonna think, "Isn't there something more interesting or better for me to experience in the coffee world?"

Tim Fulton 54:12Right.

Jeff Davis 54:12And those people might go towards a shorter drink, like a cappuccino or a- Or black coffee.

Tim Fulton 54:18Right. Who else, again, when you got started, it, there were only a couple of games in town. Who else now is doing good work, whether they be a r- roaster or just a coffee shop?

Jeff Davis 54:27The thing I hate about this question is my fear of leaving somebody that's doing a good job out.

Tim Fulton 54:31Okay.

Jeff Davis 54:32And that's a, that's a good problem to have. You know, I kinda felt like we were on an island when we opened up in that we had to still sell the idea of specialty coffee to people. Now, having other coffee businesses in town, especially the roasters that we've seen in really the last, I guess, 10 years it's been happening, is we don't really have to push the idea of specialty coffee as much.

Tim Fulton 54:54Because people understand it?

Jeff Davis 54:54And it's just in general become more popular.

Tim Fulton 54:57Okay.

Jeff Davis 54:57So now we can focus on, like, our interpretation, our style, and the way that we like to do things.

Tim Fulton 55:03And so there's no sort of infighting among that community. It's much more like-

Jeff Davis 55:06Uh, well, I mean, you know, I, I think that part of the success, we're all of us working with each other. Uh, there's, there's still a website out there that exists from 2008, 2009, Columbus Coffee, I believe.

Tim Fulton 55:19Okay.

Jeff Davis 55:20So we started working together back then. Uh, Andy Luck from Luck Brothers was, was one of the initial people.

Tim Fulton 55:26Well, and now you guys are doing the coffee experience fr- through Experience Columbus.

Jeff Davis 55:31Yeah, so, you know, we, we definitely, uh, spent time with each other, uh, did events called Barista Jams-

Tim Fulton 55:36Okay

Jeff Davis 55:37... where we all get together and, and make coffee, have some fun little competitions, interact with each other. It's a networking event for-

Tim Fulton 55:43Right

Jeff Davis 55:44... for coffee nerds.

Tim Fulton 55:45Well, similar to, like, a cocktail competition-

Jeff Davis 55:47Right

Tim Fulton 55:47... or something like that.

Jeff Davis 55:48That really fostered a sense of community among the coffee people locally, so I, I think that's been a big part of our success. Uh, the Columbus, the coffee roast that was done at the North Market was one of the first times I remember everybody sitting in a room at the same time having a conversation. Uh, so that, that was a big event. Uh, whenever we go to the national events, we all support and hang out with each other.

Tim Fulton 56:11Right.

Jeff Davis 56:11Uh, we go to each other's shops. Uh, we're more than happy, you know, when you get, when you get a customer that you know is, is really turned on to specialty coffee, or they're from out of town, it's, "Hey, you need to go to this place, and this place, and this place."

Tim Fulton 56:24Right.

Jeff Davis 56:24So it's-

Tim Fulton 56:24Well, and it's great to sort of see that that sort of spirit of-

Jeff Davis 56:27You don't wanna be the only one.

Tim Fulton 56:29Right. Well, and it's good to see that spirit of collaboration, that it is also within the coffee community as well.

Jeff Davis 56:35So a- you know, with the success that's, that's come with that, it's gotten a little bit tougher, but I feel like we're all friends, and we all speak very well of each other. That's a big part of why Columbus has a scene to the point where somebody like Experience Columbus gravitates to it-

Tim Fulton 56:50And sees it, yeah

Jeff Davis 56:51... to use it for, for what their mission is.

Tim Fulton 56:53Great. Jeff, thank you so much for your time today, and best of luck with the wholesale business and the new location, and it sounds like everything's going gangbusters.

Jeff Davis 57:02Yes. Uh, thank you. Uh, pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Tim Fulton 57:05Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, your family, contacts, enemies, your local roaster. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.