Tech Elevator

Tim Fulton 0:10Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, I sat down with Anthony Hughes, the co-founder and CEO of Tech Elevator, a 14-week coding bootcamp that recently opened up shop here in Columbus. Anthony and I talked about what the program is like, who may be interested in programs like theirs. We also boiled down what a developer actually is. We talked about the difference between programming languages and touched upon a common theme on the Confluence Cast, the importance of mentoring. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is now on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by Kepri, a full-service web and mobile development company specializing in design and programming services. Defined through skills and innovation, Kepri works with their clients to create user-centric, technology-based products that innovate. Kepri provides complete technology solutions with a solid strategy to meet your goals and grow your brand. See examples of their work and explore what Kepri can do for you at kepri.com. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Anthony Hughes, the co-founder and CEO of Tech Elevator. We're actually recording today at Rev1 Ventures, the home of Tech Elevator. Anthony, how are you?

Anthony Hughes 1:58I'm very well, thank you.

Tim Fulton 1:59Where is that accent from?

Anthony Hughes 2:01Uh, this is an English accent.

Tim Fulton 2:03Excellent. And how long have you been stateside?

Anthony Hughes 2:06I've actually been here since 2004.

Tim Fulton 2:08Okay.

Anthony Hughes 2:08But I have a long affinity with the U.S. My mother is from Milwaukee-

Tim Fulton 2:12Okay

Anthony Hughes 2:12... Wisconsin, and I studied American studies in college.

Tim Fulton 2:15There you go. So that's why it's not so heavy of an accent.

Anthony Hughes 2:19No, it's been rounded.

Tim Fulton 2:20Good. Give us ... I'm gonna make hopefully the only pun that I make today. Give us the elevator speech for Tech Elevator.

Anthony Hughes 2:27Tech Elevator is an intensive, full-time software development program teaching novices with no professional experience in software development to become junior software developers to work in, uh, the growing tech sector in the communities we serve.

Tim Fulton 2:43Okay. And it is a 14-week program. You have offices both here and in Cleveland. Talk about the student experience. What does that, that bootcamp look like?

Anthony Hughes 2:54So, uh, the student experience is an intensive one. We, uh, liken it to the experience of drinking from a fire hose. So-

Tim Fulton 3:01Okay

Anthony Hughes 3:01... we have to do a, a very s- a very strong, uh, job at identifying the right people to come through the program i- in the first place. So, um, you know, software development is not for everybody to start with.

Tim Fulton 3:15Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 3:15Uh, it takes a certain cognitive ability to do it. Um, and, uh, the coding bootcamp process, the full-time intensive, uh, process is also not necessarily the perfect learning, um, path for everybody. And so finding the right people, uh, in the first place is absolutely critical.

Tim Fulton 3:33So it's like, this is probably a terrible analogy, but like pledging a fraternity or going through basic training in the military, it's certainly not for everybody. There are people that are gonna come in, they're gonna burn out. But hopefully you're identifying students that are a good fit before they even sit down.

Anthony Hughes 3:50Absolutely. I, I, I don't wanna take the money, the tuition from anybody who we don't genuinely believe can be successful in the program. Um, you know, we are a for-profit education company, and, you know, for-profit education companies are under fire right now for very good reasons, that they're more focused on securing the tuition revenue than they are on the outcomes. And for us to be able to generate the outcomes that we've been generating, uh, at the end of the day, we have to work with, uh, the raw materials, uh, that'll enable us, us and them to be successful.

Tim Fulton 4:21Okay. How long has Cleveland been around?

Anthony Hughes 4:23So we founded in July of 2015.

Tim Fulton 4:25Okay. So very recently.

Anthony Hughes 4:26Very recently.

Tim Fulton 4:27Can you speak at all to success rates?

Anthony Hughes 4:30Yeah. So, um, you know, the program has, uh, basically been successful from the outset. Uh, we're very proud of our outcomes. Um, our outcomes are the culmination of a, a ton of different components that go into building a successful model. Um, but, um, we have a 98% job placement rate within 120 days of graduation. Our students are working at, uh, top-tier technology companies like Hyland Software, Progressive Insurance. Uh, down here now in Columbus, JPMorgan Chase, H&B, Pillar, um, ICC, and we continue to grow the demand in the, uh, in the, uh, employer community for the talent that we're producing. So we've very much been validated in a very short period of time simply by the fact that companies are hiring students and they're turning around and they're asking for more

Tim Fulton 5:20And I wanna get back to what level of expertise someone has when they come out of the program, but let's talk first about what the day-to-day experience of a student is like in your program.

Anthony Hughes 5:31Sure. So, uh, it's a full-time program. Uh, students are expected... Or class starts at 9:00 AM in the morning. Um, the mornings are made up of lectures, uh, presented by experienced practitioners from industry. Um, and then in the afternoons, um, we give the students exercises to reinforce the new concepts that they've learnt in the morning, and those exercises will take place with other students in pair programming exercises, as well as on an individual basis. Um, you know, the, the formal part of the day is from 9:00 AM to 4:30 PM. Um, but a typical student will do on average, uh, two-plus hours of additional work every day. So it's a, it's a full-time, uh, program and, and as well as additional work on the weekends as well.

Tim Fulton 6:17Can you talk about what a good student, a good candidate is like? What, what are you looking for in a student?

Anthony Hughes 6:23Yeah. Well, so I'll, I'll start by, I'll start by saying that we've seen a very broad array of profiles for our students coming in. So the youngest student we've placed at a company is 19 years old and the oldest student is 62 year, 62 years old.

Tim Fulton 6:37Okay.

Anthony Hughes 6:38So a very broad range, but the typical range that we see, uh, is, you know, somewhere between 25 and 35. They have, uh... Typically we see them with college degrees coming to us. About 30% of the students don't have college degrees-

Tim Fulton 6:51Okay

Anthony Hughes 6:52... or have some college experience. Um, and, uh, they've had some work experience leading up to it.

Tim Fulton 6:58Okay.

Anthony Hughes 6:58So there's no sort of set profile. Um, the commonalities between the students are, you know, one, they have a passion for technology. They're interested in technology. They're exposed to technology in their day-to-day work. Uh, they may be tinkering on the side, um, messing around, you know, in a workshop or, you know, uh, getting involved in, um, you know, robotics or hacking, you know, uh, jailbreaking phones or whatever.

Tim Fulton 7:22Okay.

Anthony Hughes 7:22They're interested in technology.

Tim Fulton 7:23Or has purchased like a Raspberry Pi or something like that.

Anthony Hughes 7:25Messed around, yeah, a Raspberry Pi and various other things like that. So, you know, um, you know, they're, they're interested in technology. Equally, they may not be like that sort of techy or geeky, but you know, they, um, they may be exposed to technology in their work. So we see tons of people coming from, you know, marketing backgrounds where, you know, technology is having such a massive impact on marketing, uh, that not to be interested in technology and how it's done, um, you know, is, is gonna diminish their opportunities for advancement in their career. And as they've started to tinker, they've started to say, "Hey, this could be a really great career for me." And additionally, um, they may have messed around with, um, you know, online programs like, uh, FreeCodeCamp-

Tim Fulton 8:07Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 8:07... or W3 Schools or Udacity. They may have, you know, done some of those sort of things and ultimately recognized, um, that if they're going to break into a career in software development, they need to make more of a commitment.

Tim Fulton 8:19Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 8:19They really need to dig deep. Uh, and that's at the point that we're getting the students. You know, they're really looking for that effective on-ramp to careers in technology.

Tim Fulton 8:28Do you believe that it's something that they can be self-taught in, or do you think that schools like this are required for people?

Anthony Hughes 8:36So I mean, you know, I think there's just a practical reality that everyone has different ways of learning.

Tim Fulton 8:41Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 8:41You know, my personal learning, I, I love to read. I'm a voracious reader. Um, but you know, when it came to academics, you know, I needed pressure, I needed deadlines, I needed access to instructors personally. Um, I think that people can self-teach. You know, I think that once people are in the field and they have a foundational understanding, the field self-educates. Technology changes far faster than education can evolve, and you see a phenomenal community here in Columbus around tech life and various other meetups that really support that peer-to-peer learning and that advancement of understanding as technology changes. Breaking into the field though, you know, there's a, there's a really, um, a, a, a significant baseline of fundamentals that needs to be put in place.

Tim Fulton 9:26Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 9:26And that's what we offer people to get into the field.

Tim Fulton 9:29Because you can't really say to a potential employer, "Well, I've been doing this," and, "Oh, you're working in a different language, and I'm sure I could learn that." You're not gonna get a job by saying, "I'm sure I could learn that."

Anthony Hughes 9:43Well, I think you need to be able to show a baseline capability for an employer to be really excited. You know, um, you know, if somebody is self-motivated enough and can tap into the right resources-

Tim Fulton 9:55Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 9:55... um, it is entirely possible that they could learn on their own. You know, um, nothing that TechElevator teaches is proprietary material. These materials are publicly available online.

Tim Fulton 10:05Mm-hmm. How do you build your syllabus?

Anthony Hughes 10:07Um, so we've essentially, you know, our, our program has been created by practitioners from industry.

Tim Fulton 10:13Okay.

Anthony Hughes 10:13And the first question, David, uh, Wintrich, my co-founder, who came, uh, who was the senior architect of Pay.gov, which is a $150 billion application for the US Treasury-

Tim Fulton 10:24Okay

Anthony Hughes 10:24... you know, he was hiring junior developers and, you know, he asked himself a question, "What is the baseline competency that I need to see in a person who can be effective from day one?" And then essentially what we did is we engineered a curriculum backwards from that. So, you know, when you're engineering backwards, you've got to get to a point of, you know, a, a, a, an origination point, uh, of a, of a candidate profile that's going to be successful. So, you know, as we look at it, you know, we f- we fundamentally believe that in our workforce, in any of the regions and the communities that we're in, there, there are people who are way more intelligent than the, the work they're doing demands.

Tim Fulton 11:00Okay.

Anthony Hughes 11:01Their potential is completely under-realized and under-utilized, and they're frustrated because they're intelligent. They know they can make more of an impact. And so what we give them are a set of skills that allow them to align with significant opportunity in the market. I mean, the beauty of software development as a field is it's constantly evolving-

Tim Fulton 11:19Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 11:19... it's constantly changing, uh, and it very much welcomes, um, people who are hungry learners, uh, eager to advance, eager to learn new things, and it's a very meritocratic field. It's, it doesn't judge people by backgrounds.

Tim Fulton 11:33Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 11:33And so, you know, we essentially act as that on-ramp from very, very different and eclectic backgrounds.

Tim Fulton 11:39Is somebody coming out of your program maybe not equivalent to, but would you compare it to someone coming out with, like, a bachelor's in computer science or-

Anthony Hughes 11:48Yeah, I mean, certainly for the market, you know, for the employers, that's definitely the way that they're looking at Tech Elevator graduates.

Tim Fulton 11:54Okay.

Anthony Hughes 11:54So, you know, uh, we produce currently junior developers, so that's our product is a junior developer who's capable of entering into a, uh, a software developer role, uh, and will grow in that role over time. Um, you know, there are, there are, um, there are similarities and there are differences. I think some of the things that we hear from our employers that they really like about Tech Elevator grads-

Tim Fulton 12:16Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 12:17... is, um, the result of a very, a very practical, uh, hands-on curriculum. In other words, our students are doing a ton of, are getting a ton of practical experience of writing code. Um, one might argue that the practical experience that you're getting, uh, maybe in a CS degree is more extracurricular. You may be involved in a hacker club.

Tim Fulton 12:38Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 12:38You may be doing some, you know, some internships, but, you know, the, the, the, the predominance of the curriculum is, is theoretical as opposed to practical. We very much take the practical side of the equation. The other thing that employers really like about our graduates is that they've had exposure to other areas of business.

Tim Fulton 12:56Okay.

Anthony Hughes 12:56You know, on average, a Tech Elevator student has eight years of experience in their career already.

Tim Fulton 13:01Okay.

Anthony Hughes 13:01And so they may have exposure to the accounts- accounting department or the marketing department, or they may have been in a sales role.

Tim Fulton 13:07Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 13:08Uh, and so, uh, that additional perspective, uh, gives them a, a roundedness and a maturity that I think are, you know, that we're getting feedback from our employers that they really like.

Tim Fulton 13:18And possibly that outside perspective is able to then influence the work that they're doing, making it a better, in the end, product for whomever is using it, whether that be an internal program or something that's customer-facing.

Anthony Hughes 13:31Exactly. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, if you boil down what a software developer is in their simplest form-

Tim Fulton 13:37Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 13:37... you know, they're problem solvers who solve problems using technology.

Tim Fulton 13:41Okay.

Anthony Hughes 13:41So, you know, those might be business problems, they may be, you know, social problems, governmental issues, whatever, but essentially what they're doing is they're harnessing the resources that technology provides to build applications to solve problems. So if you're gonna be solving problems, it's, it's helpful if you, uh, have the ability to understand those problems, and, and the ability to understand those problems will come from some context as well. So if you have context from other components of the business-

Tim Fulton 14:08Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 14:08... and an understanding of those, you know, it gives you an advantage as you're trying to sort of dig into how best to solve the problems using the tech tools you have at your hands.

Tim Fulton 14:16I know that you guys do some training of your students for applying for jobs, and I ask this question simply because I have no idea, what does a technical job interview in the field like this look like?

Anthony Hughes 14:30Well, I mean, there's a whole, uh, there's a-

Tim Fulton 14:31Is it, is it one of those things where you walk in and they say, "Okay, write this piece of... Here's an assignment"? Or is there a portfolio you bring to the table? What do, what does that look like?

Anthony Hughes 14:41Sure. I mean, uh, it's, it varies, uh, completely across the board and across companies. But a typical kind of boilerplate, uh, interview, uh, might be, um, you know, a coding challenge.

Tim Fulton 14:52Okay.

Anthony Hughes 14:52Uh, you might be pair programming with a experienced developer and, and they're looking at how you're solving the problem and writing code. Uh, you may-

Tim Fulton 15:00Basically a working interview, if you will.

Anthony Hughes 15:01A working interview, yeah. Just proving that you can do it. You may never touch a computer in the course of your interview. You may whiteboard the entire thing. So you'll be sitting in a room, there'll be a whiteboard, and they'll say, "Here's the problem," you know, uh, "Write out the code that you would use to solve it." So, you know, um, but that, that actual component of the interview is usually taking place, you know, two, three steps down the line.

Tim Fulton 15:23Okay.

Anthony Hughes 15:23So, um, you know, what you typically would see is a, a, a phone screen, uh, coming from, you know, people in HR who may have some familiarity with software development as a field but no clear expertise and the ability to tell whether they have a quality technical talent or a low-quality technical talent in front of them.

Tim Fulton 15:40'Cause they're basically going to say, "Do you know this language? Because this is the information I was given from the hiring manager."

Anthony Hughes 15:46Exactly.

Tim Fulton 15:46Okay.

Anthony Hughes 15:46"I have a job req, it says all these things. I'm gonna make sure this person fits that, those parameters." And if they get through what essentially amounts to, you know, more of a cultural fit, you know, an understanding, a behavioral interview or a cultural fit, then they will be recommended as a, you know, for a next step. Um, so, you know, our process, you know, we, we have a, uh, sort of a career readiness program that runs in parallel. So, you know, uh, when we started Tech Elevator, we said, you know, look, at the end of the day, people aren't learning how to code for academic curiosity. They really want to pursue a career-

Tim Fulton 16:19Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 16:19... in software development. Why would we set them out into the world with one hand tied behind their back? Um, you know, in order to break into the field, there's a process through which they need to go. That is through the application process, that's through, you know, the first and second round interviews, and ultimately the technical interview. So, you know, we prepare them throughout that entire process. So we get them familiar with what they're gonna expect at various different stages. We give them practice from a technical interview standpoint. Um, you know, ultimately giving them the comfort and ultimately allowing their technical skills to shine because they've been able to make it through the various different phases of an interview process. But that's really not where it starts. So, you know, our process, you know, that's the, the tail end of the, the process.

Tim Fulton 17:02Okay.

Anthony Hughes 17:03Um, leading up to that, though, there's work that needs to be done to get a candidate ready. You know, I don't know about you, but my college experience, you know, I, uh, the career office, you know, was sort of a, a... No one ever went there, you know?

Tim Fulton 17:15Right.

Anthony Hughes 17:16If you opened the door and went in the career office, they were surprised to see you sometimes, you know? Um, and nobody ever introduced me to somebody from industry. Nobody ever talked to me about interview practice or, or the typical questions you might see, or even dress code or handshakes or body language or anything. And so, you know, our process, you know, is designed to prepare them for what to expect, and so that starts from day one. You know, we have a 14-week ... you know, technical training-

Tim Fulton 17:43Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 17:43... track, and then we layer on top of that what we call the Pathway Program, which is the career readiness program. And that starts by getting them comfortable, uh, telling the story about what they did before Tech Elevator, uh, and what that tie-in is to technology and a, and a, and a career in technology. Um, we get them comfortable with the potential different career tracks that they might go. You know, there are p- there are l- lots of different iterations around software development and roles around them that might be interesting. We work with them on LinkedIn, we work with them on resume workshops. I mean, we're doing all of that stuff to prepare them to represent themselves as best as possible to hiring managers in the market.

Tim Fulton 18:24And I'm sure even in the short time that you guys have been around, that has been tweaked a little bit because you're getting feedback from, you know, the world at large of this could be, you know, a little better, basically.

Anthony Hughes 18:35A- absolutely. I mean, I, you know, I say to my team at Tech Elevator, "There are no sacred cows in this business." Nothing is, nothing is unquestionable. Um, if there are better ways of doing it, let's do it. I mean, ultimately let's, you know, let's understand what our North Star is, and that's getting bright people the skills they need to have fulfilling careers in technology. So how can we do that efficiently, effectively, uh, and, you know, it's always up for debate as to whether we can do it in a better way.

Tim Fulton 19:02And let's give a brief overview of sort of what they learn in the boot camp. There are two tracks essentially, right? You're either learning Java or .NET. Those are programming languages. Can you talk about the difference between them?

Anthony Hughes 19:16Yeah. So I mean, you know, at our core, we are a demand-driven program, so we're very practical about what we teach. Um, we looked at the, the needs in the market. We looked at the, the, um, job postings in the market. Um, and we basically determined that, you know, Java and .NET were the predominant languages of demand in this marketplace.

Tim Fulton 19:37Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 19:37Now, there are companies like, uh, CoverMyMeds, which is a Ruby-

Tim Fulton 19:39Right

Anthony Hughes 19:39... shop, you know, but predominantly, you know, uh, the job openings are dominated by, uh, um, Java and, uh, .NET. And actually, that's, that's consistent nationally as well. So Java is the number one in demand-

Tim Fulton 19:50So you did identify, you know, Cleveland, Columbus/. Ohio, these are the needed languages.

Anthony Hughes 19:56Yes. Yes. I mean, you know, it, it... You know, you, you'll see boot camps on the coast that focus on Ruby or JavaScript, and those may be a little bit more, um, you know, in vogue, uh, uh, you know, in, in, you know, um, Massachusetts or in, uh, in, in California.

Tim Fulton 20:11Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 20:12But for this region, Java and .NET are the skills that, you know, folks are looking for. So that was the first thing, demand-driven. If we're gonna teach people how to become programmers, let's teach them in a language that matches up with the demands in the marketplace as well.

Tim Fulton 20:25For those that are not technically savvy and aren't familiar, what are the distinct differences between Java and .NET? Is it simply different command lines and different triggering words for the code, or how are they different?

Anthony Hughes 20:38So I mean, you know, Java and .NET is... It's just the syntax, um, you know, that programming is done in.

Tim Fulton 20:44Okay.

Anthony Hughes 20:44So it's just a different, you know, there's just... It's different ways of instructing the computer to do the things that you want it to do.

Tim Fulton 20:48They both can do essentially the same thing. One is probably better for another thing. And your website actually points out, look at the jobs that you're interested in down the line and see what they are asking for, what expertise they're looking for.

Anthony Hughes 21:02Yeah. I mean, we say to the students coming in, "You know, if you have a very strong affinity one way or another, then that's great." Um, we also tell them, "Look, it's not a high-stakes program." You know?

Tim Fulton 21:11Okay.

Anthony Hughes 21:11"This isn't like choosing to do computer science or medieval history," you know?

Tim Fulton 21:16Okay.

Anthony Hughes 21:17Your life is gonna go in two different directions. I mean, you know, at the end of the day, this is the first programming language that they're gonna learn. The first is the hardest. You know, once you've got the, you know, one syntax down, it's really just a question of learning new syntax as you adopt new languages. Um, you know, Java is, uh, open source. Um, uh, you know, tons of financial institutions in this area use it. You know, .NET's, you know, the Microsoft stack, so-

Tim Fulton 21:43Okay

Anthony Hughes 21:43... um, Microsoft language. So, um, you know, it, it, it's not a high-stakes decision because at the end of the day, the exercise of learning how to code, that's the hard thing. And if you look at a, a, a good developer, they're comfortable operating in, in, in different languages and, you know, if it's a question of learning a new language, you know, it's a couple weeks of them just getting familiar with the syntax. Um-

Tim Fulton 22:06That onboarding process is not difficult. It's almost like, this is also probably a poor analogy, it's the difference between choosing to learn Latin or Greek. All of it's got structure around it. You just need to know the words that are being used.

Anthony Hughes 22:20Sure.

Tim Fulton 22:21Got it.

Anthony Hughes 22:22Yeah. I mean, I would say it's more like the difference between learning Italian or Spanish. You know, uh, at the end of the day, they kind of, they, they all have the same sort of root language-

Tim Fulton 22:32Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 22:32... you know, which is Latin. Um, they've just taken different sort of interpretations. But once you understand the fundamentals of how the grammar works, how it, how it lays out, you know, you have the, the object-oriented fundamentals to be able to say, "Oh, okay, I see that is that in this language."

Tim Fulton 22:48Okay.

Anthony Hughes 22:48So a good example, we graduated a student from our .NET program. Uh, they were hired by CoverMyMeds, which is a Ruby shop.

Tim Fulton 22:55Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 22:55You know, they had a short training period to get up to speed on Ruby, and now they're writing code in Ruby. Um, you know, it would've been-

Tim Fulton 23:02And that seems to be okay with a lot of companies?

Anthony Hughes 23:05Yeah. I mean, you know, I think the easiest solution is-

Tim Fulton 23:08'Cause you're a programmer. You're not necessarily a .NET programmer or a Java programmer.

Anthony Hughes 23:11Yeah. And particularly at a junior level. You know, I think, I mean, the easiest solution for a company is that sort of obvious, "I'm a .NET shop, I'm gonna hire a .NET developer." But, you know, um, it's entirely possible for, you know, our students to, to, to pivot and learn a different language-

Tim Fulton 23:26Okay

Anthony Hughes 23:26... if that makes sense. I mean, the, you know, what's more remarkable or the hardest thing is actually learning the first language. So the fact that somebody has gone from no professional coding experience to a functional code-ready junior developer and has acquired that knowledge in 14 weeks-

Tim Fulton 23:43Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 23:44... that's the thing that impresses the, the, uh, the companies so much and the people that hire them. Because if somebody's capable of doing that, I mean, the sky's the limit on their growth orientation and their learning ability.

Tim Fulton 23:55Okay. Walk me through your background and w- how Tech Elevator came to be.

Anthony Hughes 24:01Sure. So, um, you know, my background, you know, came originally from... I was in, in marketing and sales-related roles.

Tim Fulton 24:07Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:08Um, I had been working in the UK in Formula 1 car racing and sponsorship.

Tim Fulton 24:13Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:13Uh, I came to, um, the States to work in television broadcast, but in advertising.

Tim Fulton 24:19Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:19Um-

Tim Fulton 24:20You were in New York or-

Anthony Hughes 24:21I was actually... No, I was in Cleveland.

Tim Fulton 24:22Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:23I had come through Cleveland. My intent was to go to Cleveland, which is a top 20 television market-

Tim Fulton 24:27Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 24:27... and move to New York, you know, Los Angeles, um, you know-

Tim Fulton 24:30You were gonna cut your teeth-

Anthony Hughes 24:31... Chicago

Tim Fulton 24:32... and then... Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:32And then move on, and, uh, I actually, I met and married a local girl.

Tim Fulton 24:36Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:36Um, but what was fascinating to me was this was at a time when, um, you know, there was a, just a, a ton of activity around, uh, entrepreneurship, around, you know, sort of the digital revolution and, um, you know, I, I was not... I felt like I was in a, in a, uh, an industry that had really sort of crested in broadcast television, and I really wanted to get into the digital space.

Tim Fulton 24:58Okay.

Anthony Hughes 24:58Um, I worked for a digital agency for a period of time, um, got to work side by side from a consultative standpoint with the developers, and just really admired what they could accomplish. I mean, it was just amazing to me, uh, the efficiencies that they could bring to businesses, the value that they could add through their work, and, uh, I just, I really enjoyed working with them. Uh, I had worked with a lot of startups. I really enjoyed working with startups. Uh, at that point in time, uh, I'd gotten to know, uh, a gentleman who's now living down here, uh, in, in Columbus by the name of Robert Hatter, who is a talent partner at Drive Capital, and Robert was at JumpStart, which is the analogous organization to Rev1.

Tim Fulton 25:38Okay.

Anthony Hughes 25:39Uh, and, uh, Robert had built a talent program there and recruited me to come in, uh, and found and lead a mentoring program for JumpStart. So, um, ended up, uh, doing a deal with MIT, who had a very successful mentoring program. We took their model, we adapted it to Northeast Ohio, and we built a program of 50 volunteer mentors who were coaching and advising up-and-coming startups, and I got an enormous amount of satisfaction out of that.

Tim Fulton 26:06Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 26:07I saw the power of mentoring, uh, to really move people forward from an entrepreneurial perspective. Um, it wasn't that, you know, Cleveland entrepreneurs weren't having ideas that were just as valid as the ideas that were ha- being had in Silicon Valley or-

Tim Fulton 26:22Right

Anthony Hughes 26:22... you know, in Boston. It, it's that we didn't have, uh, the critical mass of digital literacy in our region.

Tim Fulton 26:28Okay.

Anthony Hughes 26:29Uh, and so we found a lot of business founders, but not a lot of technical founders, and I saw the problem in Northeast Ohio as a digital literacy problem that was hurting the startup ecosystem.

Tim Fulton 26:41So-

Anthony Hughes 26:41And so that was my first sort of, kind of big sort of eye-opener, like, "Wow, we've got a problem on our hands if we don't change the dynamic in this market for digital literacy."

Tim Fulton 26:50And let me translate that a little bit. You have a startup, a guy who can do accounting, can get financing together, can get investors together, but literally doesn't have the talent to build it. Is that what you're saying?

Anthony Hughes 27:01Right. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 27:02Okay.

Anthony Hughes 27:02And they were having to basically outsource a core function of their business. They could build it. They could go to an agency. They could pay agency rates to build something, but who was gonna maintain it?

Tim Fulton 27:12Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 27:12You know, and the practical reality of a startup is whatever you start with, you are not gonna finish with. It is gonna change multiple times. It's gonna react to what you're seeing in the market, but you have to have an MVP. You have to have something that you can work with.

Tim Fulton 27:23Well, you have to be able to adapt to the market.

Anthony Hughes 27:25Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 27:26Right.

Anthony Hughes 27:26And if the clock is ticking at an agency rates at 150, 200 bucks an hour or whatever, you can bleed-

Tim Fulton 27:32Or more

Anthony Hughes 27:32... your startup dry.

Tim Fulton 27:33Right.

Anthony Hughes 27:33So we needed these technical founders, and we didn't have them. So that was my first, you know, understanding of what I, what I believe is a crisis that's facing not only the nation in terms of tech talent shortage, but also the regions that we're in. I mean, if you think about it, you know, we're at a point right now in our economy where we're basically going into a fourth industrial revolution.

Tim Fulton 27:53Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 27:53The world is turning over. The world is being rebuilt in code. You know, I grew up in London where black cabs were everywhere. Well, that's an industry that you never thought would go away, but it's on its knees because of some smart kids in California who created Uber.

Tim Fulton 28:07Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 28:07You know, the world is being disrupted right now, and it's being done by the minority, a very small number of people in this world who know how to code. And so, uh, I'd seen it from the startup standpoint, but I'd also started to hear it increasingly from the company standpoint. When you look at the simple fact that it's not just technology companies that need software developers, increasingly it's the Fortune 500s who are digitizing. Sherwin-Williams up in Cleveland, you know, 60,000 employees worldwide. They're a paint company. They're a manufacturer. Who needs software developers? Well-

Tim Fulton 28:42They do

Anthony Hughes 28:42... you know, it's a giant logistics company. Logistics is, you know, needs a lot of software dev- They've got 500 software developers on staff.

Tim Fulton 28:49Right.

Anthony Hughes 28:50You know, Progressive Insurance, 3,500, uh, folks in their IT department. So it's absolutely a need across the board, and government's using more and more technology. So I was looking at this and saying, "Wow, there's a really significant opportunity here."

Tim Fulton 29:02And now is probably a good time for me to give my full disclosure of the episode. My father, John Fulton, works for you, just started and got his Bachelor's of Computer Science in 1978. And so literally, you know, his final project was a stack of cards with holes in them. And so I think it speaks to what you've said about a programmer is a programmer is a programmer. It's all about learning to sort of think in that way and getting a syntax down and understanding it, but it's, it's the way that you think then.

Anthony Hughes 29:36S- And I should say, I mean, we're absolutely delighted to have John on board. John is... You know, being able to put somebody like John in front of the students to show them, you know, John, you know, John's had a ton of experience. He's one of our most experienced instructors.

Tim Fulton 29:49Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 29:49You know, most recently 17 years at Grange Insurance. But, you know, John wasn't the kind of person that would just do what needed to be done between 9:00 and 5:00.

Tim Fulton 29:57Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 29:57If he wasn't getting exposure to technology that he thought was interesting, he was going home, and he was teaching it himself, and that is the profile of the students that we look for because we're delivering students into the market with a set of skills that's a re- that's relevant today, but that set of skills is not gonna be a set of skills that they can cruise on for the rest of their lives. I'm not teaching them to operate a piece of machinery.

Tim Fulton 30:19Right.

Anthony Hughes 30:20I'm teaching them to be in a very fluid, uh, and dynamic, uh, field, and they need to have that hunger and that growth orientation. And so when we can put somebody in front of them that can demonstrate the longevity of the career if you're willing to continue to invest-

Tim Fulton 30:35Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 30:36... in your own growth, that's exactly the kind of person we wanna have as a, as a mentor to them and as an example of, of what a career in software development can look like.

Tim Fulton 30:45I think that certain people have been exposed to a myriad of advertisements for coding programs in Columbus. Can you talk about what you view as the difference between TechElevator and some of the other programs?

Anthony Hughes 30:58Sure. No, I'm happy to. Um, you know, I, I'll start by saying, you know, this is an industry that was founded really... The first boot camp grad started graduating out of programs in 2012.

Tim Fulton 31:08Okay.

Anthony Hughes 31:09Okay? So this is a relatively young-

Tim Fulton 31:10Nationwide

Anthony Hughes 31:10... industry. Nationwide.

Tim Fulton 31:12Okay.

Anthony Hughes 31:12And, and as you would expect, the innovation was happening on the coasts. Um, a- and what's fan- f- what's fascinating about it is software, um, development boot camps were started by software developers who basically said to buddies of theirs, you know, who weren't making, you know, ha- had- didn't have great careers, they were like, "You're smart. There's no reason you can't do this. I'll teach you."

Tim Fulton 31:31Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 31:31And they, and they taught them, and they got a job, and they were like, "Hang on a second. There's a business here."

Tim Fulton 31:35Right. And so is that, by the way, how TechElevator came along? You guys identified a need and then started the business? Is it purely entrepreneurial?

Anthony Hughes 31:43So, um, you know, it's entrepreneurial, uh, certainly. I mean, you know, launching any business, uh, is entrepreneurial. The beauty for us is in some ways, uh, you know, the playbook already existed.

Tim Fulton 31:54Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 31:54It existed on the coasts. Uh, it had been done successfully. These students were graduating and going out working at companies like Intel and Google. And so we knew that this alternative source of talent was being, um, validated by companies, and we knew that, um, the process could be effective. What we needed to do was adapt it for the realities of the Midwest. So, you know, shifting the language that we were, we were teaching, thinking about the different kinds of companies who might be more traditional about how they think about non-traditional, you know, students, uh, if you will.

Tim Fulton 32:25Given the market that you exist in.

Anthony Hughes 32:27Yeah.

Tim Fulton 32:27Right.

Anthony Hughes 32:27And so making those, making those, um, those shifts. But, um, you know, we took a model that was proven and brought it to the Midwest.

Tim Fulton 32:35Okay. And back to my original question, what makes you guys different?

Anthony Hughes 32:38Sure. Currently, there are 91 coding bootcamps in the US.

Tim Fulton 32:42Okay.

Anthony Hughes 32:42And that has gone from zero in 2011 to 91 today. So it is a, it is an industry that's seen some massive explosion. Um, the bootcamps last year were projected to graduate somewhere around, uh, 17,000 students, so still in a drop of, a drop in the bucket compared to the demand in the market-

Tim Fulton 33:00Yeah

Anthony Hughes 33:00... um, but they're starting to make an impact. So of those 91 coding bootcamps, there is a massive difference between the best and the worst. Uh, I was just in a, an Inc. article a few weeks back, um, that, that was basically reporting on somebody who had, uh, was teaching people online through Google Hangouts and was charging them $10,000 a pop and then disappeared, just disappeared out of, you know, uh, nowhere. They, they found him in Mexico.

Tim Fulton 33:27Okay.

Anthony Hughes 33:28Um, you know, so that's-

Tim Fulton 33:29Took the money and ran

Anthony Hughes 33:30So there is a risk here, and this is the risk of for-profit educators. TechElevator, you know, for us, we decided, "Look, when we're gonna, we're gonna get into this business, we're gonna do it right." There's too much, um, there's too much bad news around, you know, um, you know, private for-profit educators, and we can't risk that because-

Tim Fulton 33:47Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 33:47... what we're doing with the coding bootcamp movement, if it's done well and it's focused on quality, actually offers a really amazing opportunity for people to get a second chance at a new career. So our focus at TechElevator is absolutely on quality. So it's so critical for us. And, and frankly, you know, there's no longevity in the model if we don't have a quality product. So a good example of that is, um, you know, Progressive Insurance up in Cleveland, um, they hired one of our first graduates coming out of our first program.

Tim Fulton 34:20Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 34:21Um, you know, they had been traditionally looking for CS degree, uh, holders to be their, you know, entry level, uh, students.

Tim Fulton 34:27Computer science, right.

Anthony Hughes 34:29Um, we had to, uh, we had to, you know, persuade them to think, you know, a little bit more creatively and, and take a risk on a candidate-

Tim Fulton 34:35Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 34:35... which they did, to their credit. Um, that candidate-

Tim Fulton 34:38Well, but also they're able to, if they're hiring a junior developer, they're, they bring in a CS graduate and they bring in somebody from TechElevator, and theoretically they're able to do the same thing, at least in, in the interview.

Anthony Hughes 34:49Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've heard actually that our students are able to be, you know, uh, uh, actually able to code at a higher level than a CS graduate on average-

Tim Fulton 34:57Right

Anthony Hughes 34:58... um, because they've been doing more practical work, you know?

Tim Fulton 35:00And more recently.

Anthony Hughes 35:02Yeah.

Tim Fulton 35:02It's not spread out over-

Anthony Hughes 35:03Yeah

Tim Fulton 35:03... four years or whatever.

Anthony Hughes 35:04But in that example, you know, Progressive Insurance hired one in January. Um, uh, that individual did so well that they hired five in April.

Tim Fulton 35:13Okay.

Anthony Hughes 35:13Uh, and then another three, uh, in August. And so, you know, that is really the proof. And at the end of the day, for all the branding and advertising and marketing and everything that we can do, you know, our brand is embodied in the students that we graduate, and the students that graduate and are placed at companies, you know, they're the best advertisement for the f- the next wave of students.

Tim Fulton 35:36Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 35:36And so we have to be completely, completely obsessive about quality throughout the entire spectrum or the entire continuum of what we do, finding the, the, the right students to come into the program, doing a really good job of qualifying them-

Tim Fulton 35:52Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 35:52... finding phenomenal instructors who have great industry experience. Uh, the average experience for our instructors is 17 years of industry experience.

Tim Fulton 36:01Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 36:01Um, doing a really great job of building relationships with the hiring companies and educating them about what our product is and what they can expect, and ultimately placing those students.

Tim Fulton 36:11Right.

Anthony Hughes 36:11Um, so you know, that's something that I'm incredibly proud of is our people, because at every sort of fa- every phase of our, our continuum, we're, we're really working hard to make sure that we have the right people doing, you know, good work.

Tim Fulton 36:25Are there specific things that you can point to that make TechElevator different from the other, for lack of a better term, coding bootcamps?

Anthony Hughes 36:34Yeah. I mean, I would say there are really three areas that we pride ourselves on the differentiation. Um, those are, you know, the overall quality of the students, um, the quality of the instructors and the experience they bring to the table, and then the quality and the depth of the relationships that we have with the hiring companies. So, um, you know, I'll dig into those in order. So, you know, the first thing is, um, it really matters, um, the quality of the students that are side by side with you through this intensive 14-week program really matters because- Peer-to-peer learning is a critical function, and if we just let anybody into the program, really smart people who get the materials may turn to somebody next to them who has no comprehension, and that's just gonna drag the average of the class down.

Tim Fulton 37:23Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 37:23So, you know, about one in 10 students ultimately gets through our enrollment process, which means that the aggregate, uh, is a very strong group of people.

Tim Fulton 37:32Is that from, like, expressing interest on the website to-

Anthony Hughes 37:36Nope.

Tim Fulton 37:36Okay.

Anthony Hughes 37:36That's from passing the aptitude test.

Tim Fulton 37:38Wow.

Anthony Hughes 37:38So we have an aptitude test that basically says, you know, uh, this would be, you know, this is something that you would be good at. Let's go down the path together. So, you know, ultimately from passing the aptitude test, we only enroll one of 10 students coming through.

Tim Fulton 37:51Okay.

Anthony Hughes 37:51So a high quality of students. The next thing is the instructors. Look, you know, I liken learning how to code in 14 weeks to climbing up Everest or McKinley or K2, you know?

Tim Fulton 38:01Okay.

Anthony Hughes 38:01I mean, at the end of the day, it really matters who your trail guide is. You know, it really matters 'cause if you have somebody that's never hiked that mountain before or isn't very good, you're gonna freeze on the side of the mountain.

Tim Fulton 38:12Okay.

Anthony Hughes 38:12You know? Uh, so what we do is we recruit from industry people who have a minimum of 10 years experience. How that's actually averaged out is I think our average years of experience in the company is 17 years of experience.

Tim Fulton 38:24Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 38:24But these are people who have been in the field, they've done the work, they know the practical application of the theory, and they give those insights to our students. So by the time the students get into industry, they're familiar with modern, uh, methodologies, tools, all those sort of things, and we hear that from our employers. They love that. That's really valuable because these people are code ready from day one.

Tim Fulton 38:46Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 38:47The final component is those, you know, are those hiring relationships. We have a network of over 60 hiring companies here in Columbus, all the brands you would expect, but these aren't transactional relationships. These people are coming in to TechElevator and participating in the education of the students. Uh, they're coming in, they're doing interviews on site with the students that we set up, uh, and they're letting us know about job opportunities that are coming up way before they're even p- you know, advertised. So, you know, we're constantly working to build that hiring network.

Tim Fulton 39:18So you're dedicating resources to do that at w- as well? Like, you have an outreach person?

Anthony Hughes 39:23We have a full-time person who focuses on building-

Tim Fulton 39:26Okay

Anthony Hughes 39:26... the hiring network. Because most of our students are pretty introverted and, you know, setting themselves out to the world and-

Tim Fulton 39:31You're kidding. A code, a coder is i- introverted?

Anthony Hughes 39:35So that for them is a huge advantage. So a, a large portion of the students that come through this program are ultimately introduced to their future employer through relationships that TechElevator has initiated, and that's really important. I mean, at the end of the day, we're here to get people jobs, so we wanna play a role in that, and we know we can play, you know, a powerful incremental role to their own efforts.

Tim Fulton 39:56Great. Let's talk about the model a little bit. You place a student in a company and they don't work out, that simply damages your brand.

Anthony Hughes 40:05Yeah. You can get written off very quickly.

Tim Fulton 40:07Yeah. The cost for a student for the 14-week program, it's $12,000. It's not cheap-

Anthony Hughes 40:13Nope

Tim Fulton 40:13... to do this. Given that you are a for-profit educational entity, are there financing options available for students?

Anthony Hughes 40:20Yes. Um, so yeah, firstly, we recognize $12,000 is not couch change.

Tim Fulton 40:25Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 40:25Uh, I will say that, you know, our average incoming salary is around, uh, of those who are working, about 30% have come in unemployed or displaced, but-

Tim Fulton 40:34Okay

Anthony Hughes 40:34... of those who are working, um, the average incoming salary for our students is around 30,000, 35,000. The average outgoing salary is around 60,000.

Tim Fulton 40:44Okay.

Anthony Hughes 40:45So to be able to see a $25,000, um, uh, you know, pay bump-

Tim Fulton 40:51Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 40:51... uh, on the back of 14 weeks of education, you know, I challenge you to find an educational institution that can deliver that kind of ROI, right?

Tim Fulton 40:59Right.

Anthony Hughes 40:59I mean, I think it's a really great deal. So we're very proud of the value that we deliver. That being said, $12,000 is not couch change. It's not that everyone's got $12,000 sitting around, they're wondering what to do with it.

Tim Fulton 41:10Right.

Anthony Hughes 41:11You know, practically speaking, you know, uh, it's, it's a question of pulling together that money. So we've, we've worked with, um, a, a private lender. It's called Skills Fund.

Tim Fulton 41:20Okay.

Anthony Hughes 41:21Uh, and Skills Fund will loan students up to $16,000 actually, so $1,000 a month additional for the duration of the program to cover cost of living expenses.

Tim Fulton 41:29And that's simply 'cause you're not gonna be able to be working while you're in, or-

Anthony Hughes 41:32Yeah

Tim Fulton 41:32... you shouldn't have to work while you're in this program.

Anthony Hughes 41:34Yeah. It's a full-time consideration. We want our students to be focused on the task at hand, which is learning how to code. So, uh, that's certainly helped. Um, there are some, uh, some state county, uh, resources that are available on a case-by-case basis, so if anyone's interested, I'd encourage them to look into those things on a county-by-county basis.

Tim Fulton 41:53Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 41:53Um, you know, look, we don't want means to be, uh, you know, the ability to afford the program to be the reason that somebody can't come to TechElevator. You know, we want the, the reason that someone can't come to TechElevator to be because we've mutually decided that it's not a good fit-

Tim Fulton 42:07Right

Anthony Hughes 42:07... and they shouldn't waste their money on something that they're not qualified to do. So we're, we're-

Tim Fulton 42:11Well, and it's certainly not Trump University in that you're simply trying to get people in so that you can fill your coffers.

Anthony Hughes 42:19Yes. We, we deploy a lot of resources against our students, so, uh, you know, I, I, I think you can talk to any student, read our reviews. You know, I think, um, it's incredible value for money, and we're very proud of that.

Tim Fulton 42:30You are not a software developer in your background, correct?

Anthony Hughes 42:33No, that's correct. Um, I have huge admiration for software developers and I-

Tim Fulton 42:37Why don't you take your own- Why, why don't you go through TechElevator?

Anthony Hughes 42:39Eat your own dog food? Yeah. I would, I would absolutely love to freeze time and go through- ... my own program.

Tim Fulton 42:45Right.

Anthony Hughes 42:45Um, but, uh, you know, I have a function in this business and, uh, my function is to, uh, make sure the students get a job. So-

Tim Fulton 42:51Okay

Anthony Hughes 42:52... you know, one of the primary-

Tim Fulton 42:52And is that, do you, do you view that as your role? In addition to setting up the structure of the actual business, is that your role?

Anthony Hughes 43:00It's all of our role.

Tim Fulton 43:01Okay.

Anthony Hughes 43:01I mean, from the absolute beginning. So, you know, we shouldn't be accepting anybody that we don't genuinely believe can get a, a, a, you know, can learn the materials and get a job on the other side.

Tim Fulton 43:11Okay.

Anthony Hughes 43:12Um, it, you know, the, the ownership that our instructors take of their students, I mean, these are their children, you know? They're spending an intense amount of time working with them and, and just the, the, the pride that you can see on their face when the job offers start coming in-

Tim Fulton 43:26Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 43:27... uh, is incredible. And, you know, for me, you know, we have built a team of people that are just, uh, uh, laser focused on seeing that payoff happen, uh, and it covers all aspects of the business. I mean, at the end of the day- This is not for academic curiosity that people come through this program. This is-

Tim Fulton 43:43I mean, it can-

Anthony Hughes 43:43... to change their lives

Tim Fulton 43:44... it can be, right?

Anthony Hughes 43:45Yeah, it could be.

Tim Fulton 43:45Like, if you've got 12 grand sitting around, wanna spend 14 weeks doing this, you can do it.

Anthony Hughes 43:51You can if you-

Tim Fulton 43:52But that's not the purpose.

Anthony Hughes 43:53It's not, no.

Tim Fulton 43:53That's not what you set it up for.

Anthony Hughes 43:54No, these are career changes. These are people that have jobs, you know, they've been job hopping or, you know, and they're looking for a career. And, you know, it's our responsibility to architect a system that gives them the optimal chance of making that happen, and constantly ask, "Are we doing it as well as we could, or could we be doing it better?" That, to me, is critical, and, you know, having an, a, a team that's aligned towards those goals is, you know, just fundamental to us having a great business.

Tim Fulton 44:20Okay. Cleveland was the first one because you identified the need there. Can you talk about why you expanded to Columbus?

Anthony Hughes 44:27Yeah so, you know, we decided that we, we wanted to expand to Columbus or, or I, I should take a step back. We decided to evaluate whether Columbus was a good fit sometime around March of, uh, 2016.

Tim Fulton 44:39Okay.

Anthony Hughes 44:40Um, spent a lot of time down here-

Tim Fulton 44:41A year ago, literally.

Anthony Hughes 44:41Yeah, a year ago.

Tim Fulton 44:43Okay.

Anthony Hughes 44:43Um, I spent a lot of time down here. Um, you know, I, uh, had the great good fortune to get introduced with Ben Bland Cara from TechLife. Um, you know, have, uh, some folks in my network who are down here, obviously know the folks at Rev1.

Tim Fulton 44:57Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 44:57Uh, and my first trip down here was a discovery trip, you know? A- and what I was trying to work out was, you know, with the explosion of coding boot camps in the country, what was it about Columbus and the invisible force field, uh, that may, that meant that there were no coding boot camps in Columbus? Because if you look at this market, you know, from an IT strength standpoint-

Tim Fulton 45:17Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 45:17... particularly, you know, on a sort of a per capita basis, this is a hands-down IT town.

Tim Fulton 45:22Okay.

Anthony Hughes 45:23And then if you look at the output of the colleges, you know, um, Ohio State University is, uh, you know, 43-plus thousand undergrads. You know, they're graduating, you know, less than two and a half percent of the students coming out are graduating with a, um, with a, a bachelor's in computer science.

Tim Fulton 45:40Right.

Anthony Hughes 45:40So, you know, I think 220 graduated with a bachelor's of computer science last year. So-

Tim Fulton 45:45Okay

Anthony Hughes 45:45... you know, there's a staggering mismatch when you consider that in Franklin County last year, 7,500 software developer positions were advertised and 13,500, you know, uh, related roles, so software developer and related roles were advertised. So-

Tim Fulton 45:59Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 46:00... I looked at it and said, "This is just too good to be true." I mean, there's a major supply-demand mismat-match. We've got some really great, um, traction up in Cleveland. We feel comfortable that our curriculum is where it needs to be. The final component was can we find credible people to deliver this? And so-

Tim Fulton 46:16Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 46:16... you know, we were able to bring, uh, you know, Casey Borders, who was, you know, uh, big in the tech community, to come on board as an instructor, um, back when we got started, later, uh, John. Um, and, you know, the, the rest has been history. I mean, the, the appetite for tech talent in this market is voracious. You know, a case in point, um, JPMorgan Chase came in and hired five right out of the first class. You know, Nationwide and, and Huntington Bank and, you know, um, CoverMyMeds here that were, you know, welcome- welcoming us to come down and open up. So we're delighted to be here. It's been, you know, uh, it's been humbling and, and also incredibly exciting to be in this market.

Tim Fulton 46:56Do you think that the model will evolve a little bit? Companies have this need, and while there are now more than one coding boot camp in Columbus, it's obviously not fulfilling that total need. Do you think the model will flip a little bit in terms of a student paying for the tuition and the businesses investing more or being investors in companies like yours?

Anthony Hughes 47:18So I think that, you know... So it, it's interesting to watch the industry broadly. I mean, we've seen some big players come in and invest in the industry.

Tim Fulton 47:25Okay.

Anthony Hughes 47:26Kaplan bought DevBootCamp, Capella bought Hackbright and a, a, another, um, a program in Utah. The simple fact is, is, is this is a, this is a business that, um, can be a sustainable business.

Tim Fulton 47:39Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 47:40Um, this isn't a business where we're looking for a quick exit. I mean-

Tim Fulton 47:43Right

Anthony Hughes 47:43... you know, um, we're not making widgets and buying bigger machines to make more widgets faster. I mean, we're dealing with-

Tim Fulton 47:48This is education

Anthony Hughes 47:49... we're dealing with human beings.

Tim Fulton 47:51Right.

Anthony Hughes 47:51So, you know, you, you, you can't, you know, you can't, um, you know, do the sort of cheaper, faster, you know, sort of process-

Tim Fulton 47:58Right

Anthony Hughes 47:58... because you're gonna, you're gonna compromise the quality. So, um, you know, is there an exit strategy for TechElevator at some point in the future? I mean, I wouldn't rule it out, but what we've got, um, you know, what we've got in front of us is, uh, a really great opportunity to impact the communities that we're in.

Tim Fulton 48:13Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 48:13And that's, I think, what's really galvanizing the team together. That's what enables us to attract, you know, phenomenal instructors who are really committed. Um, that's more of the focus right now. I mean, as we look at it, we believe that there is a window of opportunity for the Midwest to capture its fair share of the role in this fourth industrial revolution. It's probably the best opportunity... I mean, you know, Columbus is certainly ahead in, ahead of Cleveland on the IT standpoint, but it's probably the best opportunity since 1914 in Cleveland to really see a great revival-

Tim Fulton 48:45Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 48:45... is in tech businesses, you know? And, um, we've seen some phenomenal successes in recent years, so that's what we're excited about. I mean, my background's in economic development. I'm passionate about the communities I'm in and I serve.

Tim Fulton 48:57Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 48:57And so what role can TechElevator play in catalyzing, uh, uh, that opportunity? What role can we play in breathing digital literacy into the regions that we're in? That's much more of the focus at this point in time. I, I will tell you that there is an enormous amount of activity in the marketplace. I mean-

Tim Fulton 49:14Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 49:14... you know, it's, it's, you know-

Tim Fulton 49:15Have you guys started looking at additional markets?

Anthony Hughes 49:18Um, we've been asked to expand into additional markets, that's for sure.

Tim Fulton 49:21Well, that's better than looking.

Anthony Hughes 49:22Yeah. So I mean, our reputation, um, has gained us a lot of credibility, um, certainly in sort of, you know, um, uh, county government, city government, that kind of things, because if a politician is gonna attach their name to a for-profit education provider, they really need to know that that person or that organization is legit, has a, a real track record of real results.

Tim Fulton 49:44Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 49:44And so, you know, I think that speaks to our focus on quality that we've been invited to expand into different markets. Um, for us, it comes down to, you know, can we credibly scale the program, uh, without compromising the core? Um- And can we find credible instructors in those markets? You know, we're very practical on that standpoint as well. So, you know, are there gonna be more markets for TechElevator? You know, watch this space, but, you know-

Tim Fulton 50:09Yeah

Anthony Hughes 50:09... there's certainly been interest expressed by companies, uh, or by, um, counties and cities for us to expand.

Tim Fulton 50:15And certainly there's, you know, a human capital cost. You don't have to build machinery in order to have a class.

Anthony Hughes 50:22No, we need a physical space-

Tim Fulton 50:24Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 50:24... a decent Wi-Fi connection. Uh, we provide all of our students with, you know, laptops for the duration of the program, so they're working on quality equipment.

Tim Fulton 50:32Right.

Anthony Hughes 50:32You know, that's a, that's a, you know, that's a pretty sizable line item for, you know, 16 MacBook Airs in a classroom, but-

Tim Fulton 50:37Right

Anthony Hughes 50:37... you know, no, our, our, our big expense is on people because this is a people business, you know?

Tim Fulton 50:41Right.

Anthony Hughes 50:42We're, we're recruiting our instructors from industry. We have to pay competitive salaries with industry.

Tim Fulton 50:47Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 50:48Um, and, you know, we're fishing for a kind of a rare breed of fish as well, somebody that really, really gets a, a major kick out of mentoring and coaching and, and helping people get better and, and get into the field.

Tim Fulton 51:00The last thing I wanted to touch on, which is only appropriate because we've been talking about such a specific industry, now that you have been in Columbus, spent a couple nights here, spent some time here, can you reflect on what you see in Columbus and it, it being different from the other places that you've been? You have been to o- over 40 countries- ... lived, lived in three or four of them, settled down in Cleveland. What's different about Columbus?

Anthony Hughes 51:27Um, you know, uh, every time I'm here, I dis-

Tim Fulton 51:29You better have a good answer

Anthony Hughes 51:30... I discover something new. No, I mean, I, you know, so, so, um, I think Columbus has an incredible energy about it right now. Um, you know, the smart city-

Tim Fulton 51:39Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 51:40... um, the, the critical mass around technology. Um, of course, you know, a monster exit like CoverMyMeds proving that these great companies can be built here. You know, I mean, I, I would say that this isn't a, a, a, this isn't a, a city on the cusp of making great things happen. This city is making great things happen. Uh, and there's so much more that's gonna reveal itself-

Tim Fulton 52:03Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 52:03... and that is the aggregate of smart people working on big problems. You know, to me, that's really exciting. Um, you know, the character of, uh, you know, Cleveland is a Rust Belt revival.

Tim Fulton 52:14Mm-hmm.

Anthony Hughes 52:14There's an edginess, a grittiness, a can-do attitude, but in both cities, you know, um, these are hardworking, creative, friendly, committed people who love their city-

Tim Fulton 52:27Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 52:28... love their state. You know, that's, that's a really exciting group of people to be around. I mean, every city has its characteristics, you know?

Tim Fulton 52:34Right.

Anthony Hughes 52:35London is one of the most popular cities where you can be a total stranger and completely alone in a city of t- 11, 12 million people.

Tim Fulton 52:43Yeah.

Anthony Hughes 52:43Um, you know, so this is a place where you can have, you know, you can bump into somebody and strike up a really warm conversation. I love that. I mean, I'm a people person, so that really, that really works for me. And Columbus is a very welcoming town, you know? There's not a lot of, um, you know, there's, there's a, there's a welcome... There's a, there's an attitude of, you know, "If you've got something, you know, exciting, like, bring it here. How can we plug you in?" And, and I've been-

Tim Fulton 53:08Mm-hmm

Anthony Hughes 53:08... you know, it's been great to see how people have said, "Well, you know, I'm gonna introduce you to so-and-so," or, "You should meet so-and-so," and it's been, it's been fantastic for TechElevator, and it's been, you know, I've, it's been very enjoyable. Now, I, I would say that, you know, um, if I'm gonna be critical about Columbus, I'd say, you know, your top- your topography is miserable. It's just-

Tim Fulton 53:27Yeah

Anthony Hughes 53:27... boring, but, you know.

Tim Fulton 53:28Columbus needs a mountain.

Anthony Hughes 53:30There's Hocking Hills. That's fun.

Tim Fulton 53:32Yeah.

Anthony Hughes 53:33So...

Tim Fulton 53:34Great. Anthony, thank you so much for your time.

Anthony Hughes 53:36You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Tim Fulton 53:45Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite developer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.