Magician Erik Tait

Tim Fulton 0:10Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, I sat down with magician and comedian, Eric Tate. Eric recently appeared on Penn and Teller's show, Fool Me. We talk about how he got started as a magician, his path, the magic industry as a whole, a bit of inside baseball on how magic works, intellectual property theft in the magic community, how and why magicians guard an empty vault, and the importance of the Columbus magic scene. An editorial note here, this interview was recorded about a month back, so there are some upcoming events referenced that have already happened. Sorry, Eric. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast this week is sponsored by Little Rock Bar. Little Rock Bar is located at 944 North Fourth Street in Italian Village. With 30 beers on tap, Little Rock Bar has happy hour from 4:00 to 8:00 PM every day. Every Tuesday, get $3 draft beer all night while you enjoy Rock Your Cock Off karaoke. Wednesdays is Everybody's a Comedian, hosted by Travis Haywisher. It's like trivia, but you prove your snark instead of smarts. Info, hours, and upcoming events at littlerockbar.net. Everyone's night should have a little rock. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Eric Tate, magician and comedian based in Columbus, Ohio, recently featured on Penn and Teller's show, Penn and Teller: Fool Us.

Erik Tait 2:08Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 2:08Eric, how are you?

Erik Tait 2:09Doing great, Tim. How are you?

Tim Fulton 2:11Good. Thank you so much for, uh, joining me in my home.

Erik Tait 2:14Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:15Uh, normal studio space is... I'm in transition- ... from a normal studio space, so welcome to my home.

Erik Tait 2:22This is great. Your house is amazing. I love the Phish poster. The, the, the animal, not the band.

Tim Fulton 2:27Yeah, it's not P-H, it's F-

Erik Tait 2:29Yeah

Tim Fulton 2:29... everyone. And it is an original piece of art, not just a poster.

Erik Tait 2:32Oh, and, oh, is it-

Tim Fulton 2:33So thank you.

Erik Tait 2:33Oh, that, that's even better.

Tim Fulton 2:34It's a painting.

Erik Tait 2:34I love that.

Tim Fulton 2:35It's a painting.

Erik Tait 2:35That's fantastic.

Tim Fulton 2:36I just got done watching your clip on Penn and Teller: Fool Us, uh, and I w- I don't wanna dive right into it yet.

Erik Tait 2:43Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:43Uh, I will say for the purpose of the listening audience, we will talk about it later in the episode, uh, but please do watch the, uh, segment. It's linked in the show notes for this episode. Eric, how did you start doing, uh... Are you from Columbus?

Erik Tait 2:58No, I, I moved here from Los Angeles.

Tim Fulton 3:01Okay.

Erik Tait 3:01Yeah.

Tim Fulton 3:01And how did you get here?

Erik Tait 3:03I got a job offer, uh, and Columbus seemed pretty cool.

Tim Fulton 3:07Okay.

Erik Tait 3:07Los Angeles was hot. It's, it's a weird thing to say, but, like, uh, 365 days of just nice weather is sort of irritating after a while.

Tim Fulton 3:15I enjoy the seasons, absolutely.

Erik Tait 3:17They're fan- Yeah, they're great. Uh-

Tim Fulton 3:18How d- how did you start doing, like, comedy/magic? You started in magic, right?

Erik Tait 3:23Uh, s- I started as a juggler, actually.

Tim Fulton 3:25Okay.

Erik Tait 3:26Uh, I was a... I learned to juggle in, like, middle school.

Tim Fulton 3:28Okay.

Erik Tait 3:28This, uh... I went to a, well, fancy hippie Montessori school.

Tim Fulton 3:32Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 3:32And there, there's a husband and wife juggling team who came and taught us to juggle, and they took me-

Tim Fulton 3:36Okay

Erik Tait 3:37... under their wing. They ended up getting me a job at a place called The Comedy Barn, uh, where I was a juggler, and the, all the cast would g- uh, sell souvenirs bef- be- like, during intermission in between shows.

Tim Fulton 3:48Okay.

Erik Tait 3:49So the, the owner said, "You're a juggler. You must know magic. Go sell magic behind that magic counter." And I didn't really know any magic at the time. I was, like, 19.

Tim Fulton 3:56Okay.

Erik Tait 3:56I'd done a couple of... I'd had magic kits as a kid, but didn't know a lot. And, uh, there was a ventriloquist back behind the counter, so the ventriloquist taught me my first card move.

Tim Fulton 4:04Okay.

Erik Tait 4:05So I sort of... And I, and right after that, I was pitching Svengali decks and mental photographys and cups and balls. I was, I literally became a professional magician on the day I learned magic.

Tim Fulton 4:15Right, because you had the ability to just do it for, do it for pay.

Erik Tait 4:18Yeah, exactly.

Tim Fulton 4:19If that's your definition of professional.

Erik Tait 4:21Depending, yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:21Yeah.

Erik Tait 4:21Yeah. Uh, so that, that was sort of how that started. Um, I sort of fell in love with card magic there.

Tim Fulton 4:27Okay.

Erik Tait 4:27And, uh, I've done a wide variety of other magic, but cards are my, my main love.

Tim Fulton 4:32So, and I'm sorry, how old are you?

Erik Tait 4:34I'm 33.

Tim Fulton 4:3533.

Erik Tait 4:35Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:35Okay. And how long have you been in Columbus?

Erik Tait 4:37Uh, about seven years now.

Tim Fulton 4:39And what's your professional background?

Erik Tait 4:40Uh-

Tim Fulton 4:41Like, what was the job that brought you here?

Erik Tait 4:43Marketing.

Tim Fulton 4:43Got it.

Erik Tait 4:44Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:44Okay.

Erik Tait 4:44I do marketing and copywriting.

Tim Fulton 4:46Got it.

Erik Tait 4:46So.

Tim Fulton 4:47You're a writer.

Erik Tait 4:47Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:48Comedy or-

Erik Tait 4:49Yeah

Tim Fulton 4:49... or business or otherwise.

Erik Tait 4:51Indeed.

Tim Fulton 4:51Got it.

Erik Tait 4:52And then in, uh, on the comedy side, I was on improv on the improv team in high school.

Tim Fulton 4:56Okay.

Erik Tait 4:57My, my, my high school had a fairly successful improv program where they would... We had coaches, and they brought in, uh, people to sort of drill us on stuff, and, and we'd give a monthly show that, that more often than not sold out. I think the improv team is still going-

Tim Fulton 5:10Okay

Erik Tait 5:10... at Farragut High School. And that sort of led me into, uh, the stand-up scene, which is where I sort of live as a comedian now.

Tim Fulton 5:17Okay.

Erik Tait 5:18Um, and, uh, doing stand-up in sort of high school and early college, I found out about this program called, uh, the Comedy Writing and Performance program at Humber College in Toronto-

Tim Fulton 5:27Okay

Erik Tait 5:27... which is where I went to go get my degree. So my degree is actually in comedy writing and performance.

Tim Fulton 5:31Which is pretty rare.

Erik Tait 5:33Yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:33There-

Erik Tait 5:33It's the only program I know of in the world.

Tim Fulton 5:35Okay.

Erik Tait 5:35There... Like, Eugene Mirman has a degree in comedy, but his, I believe, is more of a, uh, it's like a, like a self-guided-

Tim Fulton 5:42Like an Antioch, so you show up, you sort of define your own structure and-

Erik Tait 5:46Exactly.

Tim Fulton 5:47Okay.

Erik Tait 5:47Whereas m- the degree I have is a, like, specified degree program where you stu- you go to class and you study stand-up. You go to class and you study sketch. You go to class and you study clown and all the different aspects, you know, video production, all, all the different things. Um-

Tim Fulton 6:01Okay

Erik Tait 6:02To my knowledge, I'm the only magician with this degree, so I'm the, I'm the only, uh, sleight of hand artist in the world who can academically prove that he's hilarious.

Tim Fulton 6:08And and so that's what you meant in the show. And so juggling developed into magic. You had, you already had some background in improv.

Erik Tait 6:18Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 6:18You hadn't gotten to college yet.

Erik Tait 6:19Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 6:20Um, how did you continue to hone your, your magic skills? Was that all self- self-taught?

Erik Tait 6:25A lot of it is self-taught. There's, there's very few magi- there's very few magicians who are... like go through like a school or a program. Like, there are classes. Like I- I teach, I have students that I teach.

Tim Fulton 6:37Okay.

Erik Tait 6:38Like next, next week I have a student in Tokyo who I will, uh, we will s- we'll do a Skype lesson where we will sit down and do stuff. I've got le- uh, students here in Columbus who we sit down and, and learn stuff. Uh, but it's very much like all tailored to the student. It's not like a formal program.

Tim Fulton 6:53It's one-on... Basically, it's tutoring.

Erik Tait 6:55Yeah.

Tim Fulton 6:55Yeah.

Erik Tait 6:55It very much is. It's very s- similar to like a math tutor or an apprenticeship.

Tim Fulton 6:59Okay.

Erik Tait 6:59Uh, that is not terribly common. A lot of magicians are, are self-taught. I'm largely self-taught.

Tim Fulton 7:04Okay.

Erik Tait 7:04Uh, there's a tremendous industry in magic, uh, where you can buy books, videos, you know, downloads and learn d- uh, different people's tricks and theory. I actually, I released a trick this week on penguinmagic.com. It's the number one bestseller on their website right now. Very exciting.

Tim Fulton 7:19We will, uh, link it in the show notes as well.

Erik Tait 7:21Yeah.

Tim Fulton 7:21And that, that trick is not the same trick that you did on-

Erik Tait 7:24No

Tim Fulton 7:24... the Penn & Teller show.

Erik Tait 7:25No.

Tim Fulton 7:25Okay.

Erik Tait 7:25No. The, the trick I did on the Penn & Teller show is in my show, Please Shuffle The Cards, and it is the same trick that I took to the International Brotherhood of Magicians convention-

Tim Fulton 7:35Okay

Erik Tait 7:35... and won, uh, a title. I'm, I'm an international champion of magic now.

Tim Fulton 7:39Wow.

Erik Tait 7:39Uh, the-

Tim Fulton 7:40I can't say that.

Erik Tait 7:41It's, it's a weird thing to say. I'm still having trouble processing winning that award, 'cause I never thought that I would be the kinda guy who would win an award like that.

Tim Fulton 7:49What do you physically get? Like a plaque or a-

Erik Tait 7:51It's like a trophy.

Tim Fulton 7:52Okay.

Erik Tait 7:53It's like, it's a big trophy and a substantial cash prize, and, um-

Tim Fulton 7:56Oh, wow

Erik Tait 7:56... and bragging rights-

Tim Fulton 7:57Okay

Erik Tait 7:58... for a long time. Uh-

Tim Fulton 7:58And is it one of those trophies with a g- like a bowling trophy, so there's a guy bowling on the top, but yours is just a guy with like, holding a top hat and a rabbit?

Erik Tait 8:05Kind of, yeah.

Tim Fulton 8:06Okay.

Erik Tait 8:07Yeah. It's, it's uh, yeah, it's a, it's like a, it's just like a guy on a big giant block of wood. Uh, but it's, it's like one of the most prestigious awards in close-up magic-

Tim Fulton 8:18Okay

Erik Tait 8:18... as far as competition goes.

Tim Fulton 8:19Okay.

Erik Tait 8:19Not a lot of people have won it, and it's-

Tim Fulton 8:21And you have won it.

Erik Tait 8:22Yeah. Uh, it was, it was pretty exciting. Uh...

Tim Fulton 8:25And you, so you've been doing this for, let's say roughly 15 years.

Erik Tait 8:28Yeah.

Tim Fulton 8:29Um, you do, I, I've seen, and I apologize, I haven't been to any of them.

Erik Tait 8:32Yeah.

Tim Fulton 8:32You do do produced shows here in Columbus.

Erik Tait 8:35Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 8:35Do you tour those shows?

Erik Tait 8:37Uh, I would like to tour them.

Tim Fulton 8:39Okay.

Erik Tait 8:39Uh, I will take them and do like sort of one-off... Like Please Shuffle has been to, uh, a couple of small theaters, and then we did a run at the Cincinnati Fringe Festival this year.

Tim Fulton 8:49Okay.

Erik Tait 8:49It was pretty well received. We got some nice, uh, some nice, uh, write-ups in newspapers. Uh, and then I've got corporate clients who will book-

Tim Fulton 8:56That show

Erik Tait 8:56... uh, that show.

Tim Fulton 8:57Okay.

Erik Tait 8:58'Cause they know what it is and they're, and so they'll, they'll, we'll decide, "Oh, I wanna bring this in 'cause this is really cool. This is unusual." Uh, and I'll do like a, like an employee event, or they'll just-

Tim Fulton 9:07Right

Erik Tait 9:07... have like a night where they'll like just say, "Hey, everyone come see the show."

Tim Fulton 9:10Right. Well, it's very, I mean, it's similar to... Part of my background is I started a trivia business, and so I could, you know, I don't really host that much anymore.

Erik Tait 9:19Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 9:19But I do like corporate events and stuff like that. So I imagine you're charging a bit more than I am. So are you able at this point, this is what you do, or do you still have like a day job as well?

Erik Tait 9:29I still have a day job.

Tim Fulton 9:30Okay.

Erik Tait 9:30Uh, I do, I do some analyst... Uh, I, I'm an analyst for a company. Uh, and I do a lot of the PR work and the, and the writing. Uh, professionally, I make sure to separate what I do at night and what I'm doing here from that company.

Tim Fulton 9:42Right.

Erik Tait 9:42Uh, like I d- I've had companies approach me and say, "Hey, we'd really like you to come work the Christmas party." But, you know, I say, "I'm sorry, I can't do that 'cause you work for my day job company."

Tim Fulton 9:52Oh, okay.

Erik Tait 9:52I, I don't, I don't want those two ever to mix. Uh-

Tim Fulton 9:54And you don't wanna double dip and-

Erik Tait 9:56Yeah

Tim Fulton 9:56... or, or have any-

Erik Tait 9:57Any sort of conflict

Tim Fulton 9:57... any optics of impropriety.

Erik Tait 9:59Exactly.

Tim Fulton 9:59Right.

Erik Tait 9:59So I, I'm very careful to separate those two things. Uh, I'm doing really well at that company, and I'm also doing really well in magic.

Tim Fulton 10:06Okay.

Erik Tait 10:06Uh, and so it's, uh, it's a pretty good work-life balance.

Tim Fulton 10:09The success is great.

Erik Tait 10:11Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 10:11Do you have a goal of doing this full time? I'm very interested when I talk to folks like you who it's not like you're just gigging.

Erik Tait 10:19Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 10:19It's like you have to like be planful.

Erik Tait 10:22Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 10:22Um, and, and map out a show and produce it. And I imagine you're basically just trying to make, to not lose money on doing something like that.

Erik Tait 10:31Yeah. It's... Uh, don't get me wrong, I would love to do magic full time. But at the end of the day, uh, in this type of industry-

Tim Fulton 10:39Right

Erik Tait 10:40... your fate is very often in the hands of people that you don't know-

Tim Fulton 10:42Right

Erik Tait 10:43... and that you can't control. So I would, I, uh, you know, I'm a big fan of having health insurance and a retirement plan.

Tim Fulton 10:49Right.

Erik Tait 10:50And I would really like to not default on the mortgage to my house. Uh, so, uh, un- you know, until such a time as, uh, th- this became something, something that was like, uh, like really huge, like if I got like on a major break tomorrow-

Tim Fulton 11:04Right

Erik Tait 11:04... I'm gonna continue to have a day job and be faithful to that day job and do my very best with them. Uh-

Tim Fulton 11:09But if somebody came out, if like Penn a- Penn and/or Teller-

Erik Tait 11:12Yeah

Tim Fulton 11:12... called you, 'cause both of them speak-

Erik Tait 11:14Yeah

Tim Fulton 11:14... by the way, and said like, "Hey, do you wanna come out and be our, my, be our apprentice?"

Erik Tait 11:22Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 11:22You would probably say no. But if they came out and were like-

Erik Tait 11:25Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 11:25... "Hey, we want you to do this show."

Erik Tait 11:27Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 11:27Or c- would you, are you interested in putting together a show or doing a, you know, close-up sleight of hand-

Erik Tait 11:32Oh, yeah

Tim Fulton 11:32... type show? You'd be like, "Fuck yeah, I'll come and do that."

Erik Tait 11:35Yeah, absolutely.

Tim Fulton 11:36Okay.

Erik Tait 11:36You know, th- that, that kinda happens a lot, and one of the things that-

Tim Fulton 11:39And I'm sorry, what happens a lot?

Erik Tait 11:41Oh.

Tim Fulton 11:41Not, not to you.

Erik Tait 11:42Oh. So very frequently in magic, someone will call you up and be like, "Hey, we wanna do this show. We wanna have you."

Tim Fulton 11:48Okay.

Erik Tait 11:48And so I'll say-

Tim Fulton 11:49That is a big break. That's how that works.

Erik Tait 11:51Yeah. Uh-

Tim Fulton 11:52Okay

Erik Tait 11:52... d- some- somewhat, yes. Like sometimes a producer will pick you up or there'll be like a tour. Like, uh, my friend Kayla is on the, uh, the Champions of Magic Tour right now.

Tim Fulton 12:00Okay.

Erik Tait 12:01And, you know, that's like, that's what she does, you know, right now. Uh, she's, you know, out there touring with the Champions of Magic. S- if someone came to me and was like, you know, "We want you to be a part of The Illusionists tour," I'd go to my company and say, "Ah, let's figure out how I can continue to work and contribute while also doing this really cool thing." And the company I work for-

Tim Fulton 12:17Or take a slight hiatus.

Erik Tait 12:19Yeah.

Tim Fulton 12:19Right?

Erik Tait 12:19They're really cool with, with doing this kinda stuff. So like, w- as soon as I got the offer to be on Penn & Teller, I went in and was like, "Hey, guys, I have to disappear for a week to go do this television show." Are you guys cool with that? And they were very supportive and just, and, and made it happen. Uh, you know, right after I won the award, I got booked for three different magic conventions next year.

Tim Fulton 12:40Okay.

Erik Tait 12:41And so I've, like, worked into my vacation schedule, I'm gonna go to North Carolina and lecture, I'm gonna go down to Pigeon Forge and lecture. Uh, I'm gonna be... Actually, there's a big magic convention here in, uh, Columbus called Magi-Fest.

Tim Fulton 12:53Okay.

Erik Tait 12:54And right after I won the award, uh, I got booked to be on the show. So my, my award act and my Fool Us act is going to be in Magi-Fest, which is like-

Tim Fulton 13:03That's awesome

Erik Tait 13:04... pretty big deal. Uh, and all of that sort of ends up leading back towards my sort of, like, little slight magic releases and things like that. So it's all good passive income, helps, helps to, to, like, keep you-

Tim Fulton 13:14Right. Well, and I imagine you... It sounds like you're managing all this yourself. You don't have an-

Erik Tait 13:17Yeah

Tim Fulton 13:17... agent that is sort of fielding these requests and knows what you want, or knows your schedule, and...

Erik Tait 13:23Uh, I have a... Ryan Francis and I have a very tentative, like, hand-shaky agreement in that he's, like, my manager, quote-unquote.

Tim Fulton 13:30Okay.

Erik Tait 13:30Uh, which largely consists of sometimes he gets me on, uh, like, a local news program, and then I buy him a beer afterwards.

Tim Fulton 13:37That's nice.

Erik Tait 13:38Yeah.

Tim Fulton 13:38That's a nice arrangement.

Erik Tait 13:39Yeah. It's an, it's a very, you know, mutually beneficial, uh, good times. And Ryan's a great guy, so.

Tim Fulton 13:44Talk about putting together a show like Please Shuffle the Cards, and what that, what that process is like.

Erik Tait 13:51Yeah.

Tim Fulton 13:51From lining up a series of jokes.

Erik Tait 13:54Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 13:54I listened to some... I'm thinking specifically of, uh, I listened to a podcast a couple of weeks ago where Penn and Teller were talking about how they put together a whole show.

Erik Tait 14:04Yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:04And, and, and, you know, you can talk about sort of the development of individual tricks, but I'm more interested in, like, just the structure of a show and how, how that works.

Erik Tait 14:14Uh, so Please Shuffle the Cards was kind of interesting because that all started around an idea I had for an effect.

Tim Fulton 14:21Okay.

Erik Tait 14:21Uh, the... For those of you who haven't seen the show, uh, it begins with the audience coming in and seeing a deck of cards on stage on a table, and they're invited to shuffle the cards, examine them, check them out, make sure they're real.

Tim Fulton 14:35Okay.

Erik Tait 14:36Uh, and then, uh, we proceed to do an hour of card magic that, uh, that all leads up to a finale that I, I, I don't wanna give away.

Tim Fulton 14:46Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 14:46Uh, but, uh, th- that is a real mind bender. And it, it sort of came-

Tim Fulton 14:50It's sort of fan... I haven't seen it either-

Erik Tait 14:52Yeah. Yeah

Tim Fulton 14:52... but it's sort of like a fantastical ending, right?

Erik Tait 14:56Yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:56Or is it... It's not just like, "And we're..." It's the card from the very beginning of the show.

Erik Tait 15:00Yeah, no.

Tim Fulton 15:00It's not that, right?

Erik Tait 15:01It's, you know, it's, it's something that's, uh, uh... Let's just say that there's a massive coincidence that happens-

Tim Fulton 15:08Got it

Erik Tait 15:08... that the audience is involved in-

Tim Fulton 15:10Okay

Erik Tait 15:10... uh, from the very beginning of the show to the very end of the show, and it, and that deck sort of acts like a through line.

Tim Fulton 15:16Got it.

Erik Tait 15:16And my favorite part of the show is when I do reveal that, uh, reveal what it is. People, uh, people audibly swear, uh, whenever it happens.

Tim Fulton 15:25Okay.

Erik Tait 15:25It's, it's really, really a lot of fun. Uh-

Tim Fulton 15:27Cool

Erik Tait 15:28... and magicians who know kind of what to expect 'cause they've heard about the show will come and haven't figured the trick out. Uh, because the method and the construction, uh, of the way it all works-

Tim Fulton 15:41Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 15:41... was, was all sort of went back to this like, "I wish I could do a trick like this, but the only way the trick works and the only way I can use this method is if I build, like, a full-on hour show around it."

Tim Fulton 15:51Okay.

Erik Tait 15:52'Cause I, I, I-

Tim Fulton 15:52'Cause otherwise a, immediate payoff wouldn't work.

Erik Tait 15:55No.

Tim Fulton 15:55Got it.

Erik Tait 15:55The s- the only way this works is if, is if I can bui- if I can have an hour show build up to this moment, and then when it happens, everyone goes, "Oh my God, I was a part of this from the very beginning." And it all sort of-

Tim Fulton 16:06And I didn't know.

Erik Tait 16:07Yeah, and I didn't realize. And I went to Nikki Winkelmann, who's my scorekeeper on The Quiz Box and my co-producer there.

Tim Fulton 16:13Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 16:13And I said, "Here's, here's a trick. I wanna do this." And she was like, "Great, when can we put it in the Backstage Bistro?" And I was like, "Uh, as soon as I write the rest of the show." So we, so I put it together. We, we set a deadline, and then I sort of worked backwards and went-

Tim Fulton 16:26But you ended up doing it at the Garden, right?

Erik Tait 16:28Yeah.

Tim Fulton 16:28Okay.

Erik Tait 16:28I did it at the Garden. Uh, we did a two-week run at the Garden after we d- debuted it at... 'Cause I wasn't intending to do it more than just, like, once at The Shadowbox.

Tim Fulton 16:35Oh, it was at Backstage Bistro as well?

Erik Tait 16:37Yeah, it opened at the Backstage Bistro.

Tim Fulton 16:39Got it.

Erik Tait 16:39And then when it got booked at the Garden, uh, uh, that... When the Garden and I spoke about putting it in there, that was when I was like, "Oh, other theaters might want this."

Tim Fulton 16:47Right.

Erik Tait 16:47"This isn't just, like, a fun thing that me and Nikki thought was a great idea."

Tim Fulton 16:50Right.

Erik Tait 16:50"Other people like it too." And now it's getting praise from magicians and, uh, editors and-

Tim Fulton 16:55You took it to the Fringe Festival

Erik Tait 16:57... competitors.

Tim Fulton 16:57Right. That's great.

Erik Tait 16:58It's really great. Uh, and, and when I put it in the Garden, I actually hired Nikki to direct it.

Tim Fulton 17:02Okay.

Erik Tait 17:02Nikki dramatically changed the show because she doesn't know anything about magic.

Tim Fulton 17:06Right.

Erik Tait 17:06So she looked at a bunch of things-

Tim Fulton 17:07She knows it from an audience perspective-

Erik Tait 17:09Yeah

Tim Fulton 17:09... and from a performer perspective.

Erik Tait 17:11Yeah.

Tim Fulton 17:11Right.

Erik Tait 17:11She's a tremendously smart writer, and so she looked at big sections of the show and said, "Why are you doing this? This doesn't make any sense."

Tim Fulton 17:17Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 17:17And when I explained it, she was like, "You're just being a dumb magician. Like, only the magicians will care."

Tim Fulton 17:21This is not important to the audience.

Erik Tait 17:23Yeah.

Tim Fulton 17:23Right.

Erik Tait 17:23We're, we're not selling, we're not selling $15 tickets to magicians in town. We're selling $15 tickets to anyone who will come sit in a seat.

Tim Fulton 17:30Right.

Erik Tait 17:31Uh, and so that was, that was a major changing point for the show. And everything else was just working backwards and going, "Well, what kind of effects do I wanna do?" The, the one thing I wanted to stay away from was pick a card tricks, because whenever I work for a, a corporate event... Like, I, I worked for Honda last year.

Tim Fulton 17:47Okay.

Erik Tait 17:48And I walked up to a table and said, "Hi, I'm gonna... My name's Eric. I'm your entertainer this evening. I'm a magician." And I pulled a deck of cards out, and the first thing out of this woman's mouth was, "Oh, I hate card tricks."

Tim Fulton 17:58Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 17:58Well, she doesn't hate card tricks. She hates the card tricks that have been shown to her before-

Tim Fulton 18:02Mm-hmm. Right

Erik Tait 18:03... because most card tricks are terrible.

Tim Fulton 18:05Right.

Erik Tait 18:05'Cause almost every card trick that a magician shows you is, "Here, please take a card. Now put it back in the deck. Oh my God, I don't know where it is."

Tim Fulton 18:11I'm gonna do all this shuffling, and here's your card.

Erik Tait 18:14And here's your card. Exactly.

Tim Fulton 18:14Right.

Erik Tait 18:14And so I, when I was putting together Please Shuffle, I spent a long time making sure that that never occurred.

Tim Fulton 18:21Okay.

Erik Tait 18:22So there's, cards, uh, appear, they disappear, uh, they transport from one area to another, uh, the colors in the deck separate. Uh, I do a gambling demonstration where I demonstrate a cheating technique that's over 100 years old and extraordinarily difficult.

Tim Fulton 18:35Okay.

Erik Tait 18:36There's mind reading. Uh, there's a whole variety of stuff. And, and the f- and the show, as I was building it, I, I realized... And that was, building that show Brought me to my current approach to magic, which is I'm not crazy, my audience isn't six. Everyone in the room knows this isn't real, so, and that's fine.

Tim Fulton 18:55Right.

Erik Tait 18:55So I don't really think of myself as performing magic. I think of myself as someone who demonstrates a skill for which the audience has no explanation.

Tim Fulton 19:03Got it.

Erik Tait 19:03And that's a fine distinction from magic because it's-

Tim Fulton 19:07Magic is fantastical, right?

Erik Tait 19:09Yeah. And what I do isn't fantastical. I was at Magifest last year and I was sitting with, uh, these magicians. These names are gonna be nothing to you, but they are upper echelon, hardcore card guys that are known in the magic community-

Tim Fulton 19:20Okay

Erik Tait 19:20... for how good they do. But I'm sitting there with Tom Gagnon, Jason Ladain, Patrick Redford, Robbie Morlin, and a few other guys, and we're all just trading ideas and tricks and slights, and it occurred to me that this is a group of people who can move a portion of their body a fraction of an inch-

Tim Fulton 19:34Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 19:35... and convince other people that reality is plastic, and that's a powerful thing.

Tim Fulton 19:39Right.

Erik Tait 19:39Th- th- that... They don't even have to move their entire body or use an apparatus. It's just 52 pieces of paper-

Tim Fulton 19:46Right

Erik Tait 19:46... uh, that they treat as, as objects to, to warp somebody's reality. And knowing how they were doing it made it that much more interesting. And just because we know how-

Tim Fulton 19:57So do you do it that way? That it's a reveal? That it's like, "Here's how I did this," or-

Erik Tait 20:02Sometimes, yeah.

Tim Fulton 20:02Okay.

Erik Tait 20:02There are effects that I do where I go, "This is what I'm doing. Watch me do it."

Tim Fulton 20:06Right.

Erik Tait 20:07And the audience... And it changed the, the presentation of the effect-

Tim Fulton 20:11Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 20:11... so that even though it is a little bit of an exposure of magic, the audience likes it that much more, and there's still some twists and turns to-

Tim Fulton 20:18Well, because it's a skill that they don't have and can't quite explain how. Like, even-

Erik Tait 20:22Yeah

Tim Fulton 20:22... if you directly say, "All I'm doing is moving this from this," you know?

Erik Tait 20:25Yeah.

Tim Fulton 20:26Or, "Putting it in my lap," or, you know.

Erik Tait 20:28I mean, yeah, when you show them what, what it is. You know, there's some stuff that like, oh, it's really disappointing. Uh, there's a, there's... The illusion designer for David Copperfield is a guy named Jim Steinmeyer, and he says magicians guard an empty vault. Um-

Tim Fulton 20:41What does that mean?

Erik Tait 20:42'Cause, uh, you think that all the secrets are so amazing and so impressive, and that's why we hide them away in this-

Tim Fulton 20:47Right

Erik Tait 20:47... safe that we can't tell you. But then when you find out how we vanish the elephant, it's actually really disappointing because-

Tim Fulton 20:52Right

Erik Tait 20:52... the, the secret is there's no, n- there's nothing to it, and most magic tricks are that way. Uh, the new show on August 28th at, uh, at The Shadow Box is called Suspicious Wizard.

Tim Fulton 21:02Okay.

Erik Tait 21:03That is a very different show. That is a magic show in every sense of the word, in that I'm gonna do magic tricks. Uh, some of them are classics in magic, which I think are really dumb.

Tim Fulton 21:13Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 21:14Uh, but I've tried to find a way to make it funny or interesting or some way that I'm intensely attracted to it.

Tim Fulton 21:19Okay.

Erik Tait 21:20Uh-

Tim Fulton 21:20So they're not all just card tricks, like-

Erik Tait 21:22They're... This new show, no. It's very much a sort of classic style cabaret act of-

Tim Fulton 21:26Okay. So you're, like, cutting a lady in half or...?

Erik Tait 21:29Uh, no, I... It's still just, like, me with a mic stand. Uh-

Tim Fulton 21:31Okay

Erik Tait 21:32... I'm not doing any big illusions. This is more similar to, like, what you would see in, like, an old school burlesque show-

Tim Fulton 21:38Okay

Erik Tait 21:38... or like a, like a cabaret in a-

Tim Fulton 21:40But a long format.

Erik Tait 21:41But still, yeah, still a long format. But instead of having the camera on my hands like Please Shuffle and doing all kinds of difficult, fiddly, you know, card slights, here I'm doing, like... I do a, a trick called Silk to Egg, which is a really dumb thing where a silk transforms into an egg.

Tim Fulton 21:56Okay.

Erik Tait 21:56And the... But I've tried to find a new way to make it interesting and change it so that it's fun for an audience.

Tim Fulton 22:03Is this the classic shove into your fist and then it's something else when you open your hand?

Erik Tait 22:06Exactly.

Tim Fulton 22:07Okay.

Erik Tait 22:07Uh, but finding a new way to present that. Um-

Tim Fulton 22:09Okay

Erik Tait 22:10... there's a weird stunt at the end involving a straitjacket, um, that I'm not escaping from it, uh, but it does involve a straitjacket, so I've tried to, like, take classic stuff and really modernize it and, and make it funny.

Tim Fulton 22:22Okay.

Erik Tait 22:23'Cause, 'cause magic and comedy, like, actually don't work together.

Tim Fulton 22:26Okay.

Erik Tait 22:27Uh, David Acker said, uh, "Comedy is fundamentally about telling a truth. Magic is fundamentally about telling a lie."

Tim Fulton 22:33Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 22:33It's very difficult to do those two things at once. So the show is more about creating situations that are funny using magic rather than trying to make the magic funny.

Tim Fulton 22:43Right. Well, and it's not like pratfalls and stuff like that.

Erik Tait 22:46No.

Tim Fulton 22:46Like, you're literally... It's funny.

Erik Tait 22:49Y- y- yes.

Tim Fulton 22:49Right.

Erik Tait 22:50And some of the magic in this show is some of the strongest magic that I've ever created.

Tim Fulton 22:54Okay.

Erik Tait 22:54Uh, but it's not, it's not as... It's not the stuff that I really love doing, which is the skill-based. This is a very different thing that I'm attracted to here.

Tim Fulton 23:02Okay.

Erik Tait 23:02Where I'm trying to, I'm trying to transition my magic from a close-up format into a stage format.

Tim Fulton 23:08Got it.

Erik Tait 23:08And it's something I've never done before. It's gonna be a great experiment, and we'll see how it goes.

Tim Fulton 23:11And what you had to do with Please Shuffle the Cards was, 'cause it's a card trick in a theater-

Erik Tait 23:16Yeah

Tim Fulton 23:17... you, you had, I assume, like, an overhead camera and-

Erik Tait 23:19Yeah

Tim Fulton 23:19... projection, and that's how you sort of, like-

Erik Tait 23:21Yeah

Tim Fulton 23:21... read it out. Does that format work well? Like, does the audience respond well to that?

Erik Tait 23:25It does, and it's kind of interesting because in Please Shuffle, you can't watch the entire show.

Tim Fulton 23:30Okay.

Erik Tait 23:31Your system of perception is not set up to do that because, uh, throughout the show you have to make a decision to watch the screen or watch the stage.

Tim Fulton 23:37Okay.

Erik Tait 23:38And if... And y- your eyes bounce back and forth and, and I constructed the sh- There's magic in that show that I can't do anywhere else because I constructed it in such a way that people's eyes are gonna be bouncing around, and I kind of know when that's gonna happen, and I can do much more bold and open sleight of hand-

Tim Fulton 23:54Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 23:54... that would not be normally capable-

Tim Fulton 23:57Right

Erik Tait 23:57... of, Cole, if you and I were sitting across from one another.

Tim Fulton 23:58Somebody would quote unquote catch you.

Erik Tait 23:59Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:00Right.

Erik Tait 24:00But, uh, so but now I'm, I'm sort of abusing the way your brain and intention works, uh, by setting up that screen.

Tim Fulton 24:07Well, that's a lot of what magic is, right? Is sort of that, um-

Erik Tait 24:11It, it's software abuse, uh, of the brain.

Tim Fulton 24:14Yeah.

Erik Tait 24:14Yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:15That's a good way of putting it.

Erik Tait 24:16Where- whereas Suspicious Wizard is much more about, like, you can't trust what I'm telling you because we are acknowledging that everything that is going on is a lie.

Tim Fulton 24:26Okay.

Erik Tait 24:27And so he-

Tim Fulton 24:28'Cause it's a magic show.

Erik Tait 24:29Yeah. It, so I'm, I'm trying to be as honest about my dishonesty as I can. Uh, so if that makes any sense.

Tim Fulton 24:35Yeah. So when you're developing a show like that, is... And you, you talked about you're sort of taking old tricks-

Erik Tait 24:42Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 24:42... cla- you know, classics, if you will-

Erik Tait 24:44Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 24:44... and augmenting them. Is that something then that you That's not something that you would, like, write a short book and, and sell that or anything like that. Would you... How does that-

Erik Tait 24:55Yeah, I think-

Tim Fulton 24:56How does that translate to the magician community, then?

Erik Tait 24:59I think I w- I think I would. So some of the stuff in that show I already lecture on.

Tim Fulton 25:03Okay.

Erik Tait 25:03Like, it, it comes out of my sort of corporate stage act, my, my normal stuff.

Tim Fulton 25:08Okay.

Erik Tait 25:08Uh, and when I... Like, so I'm gonna... September 5th, I'm gonna be in Cleveland, uh, lecturing for a magic club up there.

Tim Fulton 25:16Okay.

Erik Tait 25:16And some of the tricks in Suspicious Wizard are things that I reveal to magicians when I do these sort of magic lectures.

Tim Fulton 25:21Okay.

Erik Tait 25:22Uh, I think the... Updating a classic, changing the way the, the way the method works, changing the rationale for doing the trick is something that magicians can talk about until they are blue in the face.

Tim Fulton 25:32And they want to.

Erik Tait 25:33They, yeah.

Tim Fulton 25:34Right

Erik Tait 25:34And they want to. It's no different than f- uh, a bunch of photographers getting together and discussing the reasons that they made light ch- uh, lighting choices-

Tim Fulton 25:41Right

Erik Tait 25:42... or lens, uh, lens choices to get a specific, uh, image, or artists talking about, uh, the composition-

Tim Fulton 25:48Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 25:48... of still life.

Tim Fulton 25:49Yeah.

Erik Tait 25:49Magicians just sort of look at... Uh, we're just looking at different things and discussing a different way of setting something all up together.

Tim Fulton 25:57Hmm.

Erik Tait 25:58If that, if that makes sense.

Tim Fulton 25:58Yeah, absolutely. So d- there's a s- a lot... it sounds like a lot of sharing that goes on in that community.

Erik Tait 26:04Oh, yeah.

Tim Fulton 26:04How much of it becomes guarded in that, "Oh, I don't want you to sort of steal what I do"?

Erik Tait 26:10So magic... And so theft, intellectual property theft in magic is actually a really big problem.

Tim Fulton 26:14Okay.

Erik Tait 26:15Um, I sort of started in the world of comedians, and I consider intellectual property sacred.

Tim Fulton 26:22Right.

Erik Tait 26:22And in my very-

Tim Fulton 26:23Well, it's something that c-

Erik Tait 26:24Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:24... like, we, especially in the age of Twitter-

Erik Tait 26:25Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:25... people talk about a lot, that like, you know, somebody, people stealing jokes.

Erik Tait 26:29Oh, yeah.

Tim Fulton 26:30Right?

Erik Tait 26:30Oh, great... One of my favorite, uh, Twitter accounts is that one that just goes around and, and calls out people who are stealing other people's viral tweets.

Tim Fulton 26:37Oh, I haven't seen that.

Erik Tait 26:38Oh, it's so good.

Tim Fulton 26:38Okay.

Erik Tait 26:39Uh, there's, I mean, there's a whole thing going on right now with, I think it's Zach Hanson.

Tim Fulton 26:42Okay.

Erik Tait 26:43Who... He, like, uh-

Tim Fulton 26:44Oh, yeah

Erik Tait 26:44... he, like, traces-

Tim Fulton 26:45He sketched the local kid and dad thing-

Erik Tait 26:48Yeah

Tim Fulton 26:48... with the spaceship. We'll link to that in the show notes, yeah.

Erik Tait 26:51Yeah. It's, yeah, it's kinda crazy. But in, in magic, most magicians learn by imitation.

Tim Fulton 26:57Okay.

Erik Tait 26:58Right? So you buy a book or you buy a video, you learn the trick, and then when you're buying this book or video, one thing that you are inherently buying, unless it is expressly stated otherwise, is you're buying the routine.

Tim Fulton 27:09Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 27:09And so very often when you see a magician performing something, it's not original to that magician, it's something that they bought, learned, and are performing rote.

Tim Fulton 27:16Right.

Erik Tait 27:17And the, and the best magicians create new magic and new routines, and then, and, uh, and present that to an audience.

Tim Fulton 27:23Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 27:24And, and there is... Th- there's, there's nothing... It's not like a musician when you go to, when you go see somebody play a cover of, like, a Styx song.

Tim Fulton 27:33Right.

Erik Tait 27:34Right? You know that that's Styx and that you're seeing a cover. With magic, most of the time you're seeing a cover of the or- of an original performance, but there's, there's nothing to the untrained eye that tells you that you're doing-

Tim Fulton 27:46Well, and there's certainly no liner notes, and obviously, you know, unless somebody's-

Erik Tait 27:49Yeah

Tim Fulton 27:49... like, crazy about going to con- consume magic-

Erik Tait 27:53Yeah

Tim Fulton 27:53... they're not going to know where it originally came from.

Erik Tait 27:56One of the most commercially successful tricks right now in magic is an effect called Tiny Plunger.

Tim Fulton 28:01Okay.

Erik Tait 28:01Tiny Plunger was created by a very good friend of mine named John Armstrong. He sells it. He sells the routine. You're buying the per- the performance rights when you do that. Um, I'll tell everyone, I do Tiny Plunger.

Tim Fulton 28:12Okay.

Erik Tait 28:12It's really strong. Whenever I do it at, uh, one of my walk-around events, uh, when I'm performing at a cocktail hour-

Tim Fulton 28:18Mm

Erik Tait 28:18... I do Tiny Plunger, no one wants to see anything else. They wanna see the plunger, and I hate how good it is. It's-

Tim Fulton 28:22What's Tiny Plun- Can you... Is it easy to describe?

Erik Tait 28:24Yeah. There's, uh, it's a... Tiny Plunger, uh, somebody selects a card, the card is lost in the deck. Uh, the plun- u- the plunger, uh, can find the card in the deck. Uh-

Tim Fulton 28:32Okay

Erik Tait 28:33... it, uh, John was on Fool Us with it, and I think he's gonna be on America's Got Talent, um-

Tim Fulton 28:37Wow.

Erik Tait 28:37Uh, but he, he just, like, he presses the plunger on the back of the deck, and then he moves it, and he turns over the card, and there it is. Someone thinks of a card, he, uh, he uses the plunger to cut the deck, and it cuts straight to the card people are thinking of.

Tim Fulton 28:49Cool.

Erik Tait 28:49It's an amazing effect, and it's, it's lovable and likable and it works for everyone. Whether you're two or 102, people just love watching it.

Tim Fulton 28:58Right.

Erik Tait 28:59And it's this weird little, tiny, like... It, it's, it's bas- You remember that, uh, that plunger you would shove on the back of your phone to, like, prop it up?

Tim Fulton 29:06Yeah.

Erik Tait 29:06Yeah. That's all it is.

Tim Fulton 29:08Okay.

Erik Tait 29:08It's a great effect. Um-

Tim Fulton 29:09And so what... So he's selling... He's not selling a physical thing, right?

Erik Tait 29:13Yeah, he is.

Tim Fulton 29:13Okay.

Erik Tait 29:13So-

Tim Fulton 29:14So he sells a physical thing.

Erik Tait 29:15Yes.

Tim Fulton 29:15He sells the here's how you do it.

Erik Tait 29:17Yep.

Tim Fulton 29:17Um-

Erik Tait 29:18And then he sells the routine.

Tim Fulton 29:19Okay.

Erik Tait 29:20So the whole, all the lines, all of the construction of it, everything that you're doing, all of the s-

Tim Fulton 29:23What you say. Y- and you can change that because-

Erik Tait 29:26Yeah

Tim Fulton 29:26... it's you, you're a person.

Erik Tait 29:27Yeah.

Tim Fulton 29:27Um, so what's he char- so, like, what-

Erik Tait 29:29The-

Tim Fulton 29:29... does that cost?

Erik Tait 29:30Uh, I think he's charging... It's between $30 and $40. I can't remember.

Tim Fulton 29:34Okay.

Erik Tait 29:34It's been a while since I bought it, but, you know.

Tim Fulton 29:35And so somebody then can... They're gonna take that, and they're gonna use it and-

Erik Tait 29:39Oh, yeah

Tim Fulton 29:40... make a couple hundred bucks off of it after-

Erik Tait 29:41And that's perfectly fine.

Tim Fulton 29:43Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 29:43They're well within their rights. What is wrong, and what magicians do a lot, and there's a, there's a big fight in the magic community right now over this, uh, is people will watch an effect on Fool Us-

Tim Fulton 29:54Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 29:54... and they'll go back and watch it on YouTube, uh, 20, 30 times and figure out how it works-

Tim Fulton 29:59Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 29:59... because most magic, if you watch it enough, you can figure it out.

Tim Fulton 30:02And if you've done it, like, if you do magic, that's why Fool Us-

Erik Tait 30:06Yeah

Tim Fulton 30:06... exists.

Erik Tait 30:06Yeah.

Tim Fulton 30:06Because it is them a little too inside baseball, I believe.

Erik Tait 30:11Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 30:11Just basically saying, "Okay, you're using this metho- method, this method, and a little bit of your personality drawn in."

Erik Tait 30:17Yeah.

Tim Fulton 30:17"That's great. You did not fool us."

Erik Tait 30:19And if you... But if you're at home on your couch and... or with your laptop on your desk, you can-

Tim Fulton 30:23Right

Erik Tait 30:24... you can do that over and over again and figure it out. And then what they will do is once they figure it out, they'll practice it up, they'll start doing the routine and performing it for other people. Now, that's not okay.

Tim Fulton 30:33Right.

Erik Tait 30:33Because you didn't bu- uh, you didn't pay the creator for it, you're, uh, you're not paying him any royalties on it, you didn't have permission. You're f- you're stealing that, and a lot of magicians say, "Well, I'm borrowing this line." No, borrowing is stealing.

Tim Fulton 30:45Right.

Erik Tait 30:45That's, that's what it is.

Tim Fulton 30:46So but is any trick set up in a sort of, um- You know, I-

Erik Tait 30:52Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 30:52... Tim, no, no magician background, I can go and buy card tricks.

Erik Tait 30:56Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 30:56I can go to a magic store. Um, are any of these tricks set up in a royalty sort of way where, like-

Erik Tait 31:03There are some

Tim Fulton 31:04... "Hey, you've seen this trick."

Erik Tait 31:06Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 31:07"Do you want it?"

Erik Tait 31:08Yeah.

Tim Fulton 31:09"If you want it, we're gonna have a super loose contract, and you're gonna get to use it as much as you want, but every fiscal quarter, you're gonna pay me 100 bucks."

Erik Tait 31:18There are a few tricks that are set up that way.

Tim Fulton 31:20Okay.

Erik Tait 31:20But there are-

Tim Fulton 31:20But those are the bigger ones, I imagine

Erik Tait 31:22... Yeah, they're really fooling, they're really complex, they're, uh, they're very special. Uh, I, I can think of a few off the top of my head, um, that, that are that way. I know David Copperfield has licensed stuff or will outright buy effects from performers, and when he buys the, the rights to it, he buys all the performance rights so no one else can do it. Uh, there's a, there's a very interesting trick that's sort of a through line in his show-

Tim Fulton 31:45Okay

Erik Tait 31:45... that ends up that people leave with a souvenir, uh, that was originally on the market. Copperfield thought it was so good, he bought it, and-

Tim Fulton 31:51Wow

Erik Tait 31:51... he bought all the performance rights so no one can do it anymore.

Tim Fulton 31:54Okay.

Erik Tait 31:55Uh-

Tim Fulton 31:55But it's similar to, like, I was referencing the, you know, cut a woman in half.

Erik Tait 31:59Yeah.

Tim Fulton 31:59You gotta buy that thing.

Erik Tait 32:01Yeah.

Tim Fulton 32:01You c- don't... Nobody... I guess you could build it, but it's not easy to build it.

Erik Tait 32:06Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 32:06You... It needs to be manufactured, and so when you buy it, you're buying the trick.

Erik Tait 32:10I'll give you an example of, of something of mine that's gotten stolen by magicians.

Tim Fulton 32:13Okay.

Erik Tait 32:13Uh, which is, uh, I have a trick where I bring someone up on stage and I get them to call somebody else, and then they give me a number, and then I deal down a-

Tim Fulton 32:22Call on the phone.

Erik Tait 32:23Yeah, call on the phone.

Tim Fulton 32:24Okay.

Erik Tait 32:24The person on the phone, uh, there's some comedy byplay, and meanwhile, the person whose phone I'm borrowing is shuffling the cards. The person on the phone gives me a number, I take the fully shuffled deck, I deal down to a number that the person on the phone gives me.

Tim Fulton 32:37Okay.

Erik Tait 32:38And that card matches a prediction that appears elsewhere in the show.

Tim Fulton 32:41Okay.

Erik Tait 32:41Right before, uh, I make the reveal, I hang up on the person on the phone, but the, the... And the hang-up is, like, a pitch, uh, to come see the show, and it's a big h- it's a big funny moment, and the audience is sort of shocked that I did this sort of dick move.

Tim Fulton 32:54Uh-huh.

Erik Tait 32:55Uh, but it, it's always a big laugh, especially when the person calls back and we hang up on them again and put the phone away. So I did that trick o- on a number of occasions, and like two weeks later, I saw someone doing the exact same routine with my lines, my pitch, all the way through. And so I had to talk to that person and be like, "You don't have permission. That's mine."

Tim Fulton 33:14Right.

Erik Tait 33:14They didn't get that it wasn't okay to take it because th- because they-

Tim Fulton 33:18Well, that is so specifically... If I assume that every magi-

Erik Tait 33:22Yeah

Tim Fulton 33:22... every sleight of hand magician has the ability to reveal a card-

Erik Tait 33:27Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 33:27... in whatever, and there's eight m-

Erik Tait 33:29Mm

Tim Fulton 33:29... millions of ways to do that. There's a plunger.

Erik Tait 33:32Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 33:32There's a pick a card, put it back in the deck, shuffle it, here's your card again. If a, if a magician has the inherent ability to do that-

Erik Tait 33:40Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 33:40... it's really... The intellectual property is literally what you're saying, how you do it, what else you're involving, whether there's a person that comes up-

Erik Tait 33:48Yeah

Tim Fulton 33:48... whether they, you know, how, how you have them do it.

Erik Tait 33:51It, it gets, it does get a little sticky because the, some of the sleights and some of the moves have, have been around for hundreds if not a thousand years.

Tim Fulton 33:59Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 34:00So it's, it's, it is diff- Y- y- so you, y- y- it's, you c- like you can't copyright... It's hard to copyright a method unless it's something that's truly unique, and there's-

Tim Fulton 34:07Right

Erik Tait 34:07... not a lot of stuff that's, like, brand new. But the theft, where theft comes in, in magic, is that a lot of people don't reali- it's-

Tim Fulton 34:14Well, it goes right back to the comedy thing of-

Erik Tait 34:15Yeah

Tim Fulton 34:15... people stealing jokes.

Erik Tait 34:17Yes.

Tim Fulton 34:17Right.

Erik Tait 34:17And it's that same thing and, and because magicians tend to learn by imitating other people because they're buying and they don't realize that they're buying performance rights to a routine-

Tim Fulton 34:26Right

Erik Tait 34:26... it's a very small leap for them to go, "Oh, I saw that on television. Look how good a reaction he got from that. I want that reaction. I'm gonna do those lines." And a lot of magicians don't understand that that's wrong.

Tim Fulton 34:37Right.

Erik Tait 34:37When I was at the IBM convention, right after, uh, you compete in three rooms, uh, uh, to do... You do your routine three times for the judges, but there's also a lot of other people in the room.

Tim Fulton 34:45And I'm sorry, IBM, International-

Erik Tait 34:47International

Tim Fulton 34:47... Brotherhood of Mugi- Magicians

Erik Tait 34:49... of Magicians, yeah.

Tim Fulton 34:49Oh, I just guessed it. Good.

Erik Tait 34:50Y- yeah, yeah. That is it. It's the largest magic organization in the world.

Tim Fulton 34:53Okay, got it.

Erik Tait 34:54Uh, so I'm competing in this, in these rooms, and there's other people who are watching it other than the judges. You know, it's a, it's a big competition, it's a big event, so there's hundreds of people who are watching this.

Tim Fulton 35:02Right.

Erik Tait 35:02Later on that day after my performance, at least four different guys came up to me and said, "Man, that line is really funny. I can't wait to use it."

Tim Fulton 35:10And y-

Erik Tait 35:10And I would say, "You don't have my permission to do that. That's my line. If you would like to buy the rights to that line, I'd love to talk to you about that later, but please don't use it."

Tim Fulton 35:18So do you have, like, a, a contract sitting on your computer that you can just reformat and be like, "Yes, you can use this, and here's how much it costs"?

Erik Tait 35:25No.

Tim Fulton 35:26No, okay.

Erik Tait 35:26'Cause no other m- no magician has ever walked up to me and said, "I want that line." What they have said, and these are pros, is, "I think you're really funny. Please look at this routine. I want you to punch it up and write original material for me," which-

Tim Fulton 35:39And I'll pay you for that.

Erik Tait 35:40Yes.

Tim Fulton 35:40Right, okay.

Erik Tait 35:41But, but very... But no one has ever followed through and said, "Oh, yeah, I do want, uh, the joke about Sands Mines," or, "I, I do want that joke about Bitcoin."

Tim Fulton 35:50Got it.

Erik Tait 35:50Th- they never follow up because they, they just-

Tim Fulton 35:53They're just gonna go and use it

Erik Tait 35:54... they're just gonna go and use it.

Tim Fulton 35:54Or they're gonna be so ashamed that they said, "I can't wait to use it" that hopefully-

Erik Tait 35:59Yeah

Tim Fulton 35:59... they don't steal it.

Erik Tait 36:00And, I mean, in the grand scheme of things, is it, you know, is it gonna affect me financially? Is it gonna affect me artistically? Not really.

Tim Fulton 36:08Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 36:08Most of these guys are amateurs. And this is gonna sound like I'm, like, uh, uh-

Tim Fulton 36:14I don't think really, I mean-

Erik Tait 36:15This is gonna sound like-

Tim Fulton 36:15But it makes sense, yeah

Erik Tait 36:15... this is gonna sound arrogant, but, like, they're, they're amateurs who are only gonna perform for maybe six or seven people.

Tim Fulton 36:21Right.

Erik Tait 36:22And, you know, those six or seven people, if they ever see me on a television program or hear me on a podcast or something like that, or, you know, see a li- one of my live performances-

Tim Fulton 36:30Right

Erik Tait 36:30... when I do come to a city, th- they may go, "Oh, that's funny. That's the same line my friend said."

Tim Fulton 36:35But you're also probably gonna do it better, I would hope.

Erik Tait 36:37Yeah, 'cause it's-

Tim Fulton 36:38Yeah

Erik Tait 36:38... for me, for my voice.

Tim Fulton 36:40Right.

Erik Tait 36:40You, you can't... You know, I come from a very specific point of view and a very specific background that has led me to write material in this way.

Tim Fulton 36:47Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 36:47You know, Nikki says that I'm kind of a dick on stage and- ... and people like it when I'm a dick to them.

Tim Fulton 36:52Yeah.

Erik Tait 36:53Uh, I don't necessarily think that, but maybe she's right.

Tim Fulton 36:55Well, you're frank and, you know.

Erik Tait 36:56Yeah. And, and, but that- ... it all leads into the way I approach these people.

Tim Fulton 37:00Right.

Erik Tait 37:00And so if you just take the line, it means nothing And you're just, you're just getting a cheap reaction. So it's-

Tim Fulton 37:07You're actually saying there that you care, but you don't care because-

Erik Tait 37:10I, yeah, I, I'm not gonna go to the, the legal mat every time.

Tim Fulton 37:13Right.

Erik Tait 37:13It, it'd be one thing if I found out Copperfield was doing it, and then I'd be like, you know, "Get that sweet payday." Uh-

Tim Fulton 37:18Right.

Erik Tait 37:18But, you know, but he's a pro. He's never gonna do that, and none of my friends who are pros have ever stolen my lines. It's alway- or stolen my effects or stolen any gags. It's always an amateur who does it.

Tim Fulton 37:30Right.

Erik Tait 37:31And what we need to do to advance the art is to teach these amateurs how to create their own lines, how to create their own scripts, routines-

Tim Fulton 37:37How to write

Erik Tait 37:38... magic.

Tim Fulton 37:38Right.

Erik Tait 37:39How to do that, because then they may never be professionals, but they will move the art forward.

Tim Fulton 37:43Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 37:44And that is, that is an important thing. So the small act of the theft is, is not, not a big deal.

Tim Fulton 37:52Right.

Erik Tait 37:52It's how do we make the art better?

Tim Fulton 37:54Right.

Erik Tait 37:55Because magic's got a big problem where, you know, the median age of the person who's joining the International Brotherhood of Magicians right now is 35.

Tim Fulton 38:03Okay.

Erik Tait 38:04It's not 12, and it should be 12.

Tim Fulton 38:06Right.

Erik Tait 38:06Because a lot of people get into magic when they're young. They move away from it when they're, uh, get a little bit older and get interested in girls, cars, rock and roll, and drugs.

Tim Fulton 38:13Right.

Erik Tait 38:14And then they come back to it when they're old and-

Tim Fulton 38:16They can't be interested

Erik Tait 38:17... looking for a hobby.

Tim Fulton 38:17Right.

Erik Tait 38:18So we, we need to find a way to get these kids interested in magic, and, and my star pupil right now is this kid named Quinn, who has the best set of hands, and I am really afraid of what's gonna happen when he turns 16 and discovers girls and cars. Uh, 'cause this kid is world class. He's gonna be somebody if he sticks with it.

Tim Fulton 38:35Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 38:36And, you know, and, but he's doing great, but, uh, there's not a lot of kids who are like that. And so every time I find one like that, I, you know, I take him under my wing as, as, as much as I can and really-

Tim Fulton 38:47Right

Erik Tait 38:47... teach them cool, interesting stuff and show them you can do amazing things and be awesome.

Tim Fulton 38:53Talk more about sort of the Columbus... Is there much of a magic community in Columbus?

Erik Tait 38:58Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Tim Fulton 38:58Okay.

Erik Tait 38:59Columbus, I, I would argue is one of the more important scenes in the country.

Tim Fulton 39:03Oh, okay.

Erik Tait 39:04So there's the Los Angeles scene, which is around the Magic Castle, which is the most important venue for magic-

Tim Fulton 39:09Okay

Erik Tait 39:09... in the world. Like, you know, you don't get to perform at The Castle unless you're big time. And, uh, performing at The Castle was one of the highlights of my career.

Tim Fulton 39:15Okay.

Erik Tait 39:15The Chicago scene is really big, and the New York scene is really important. It, in Columbus, we have the P3 Magic Theater, where people will go see a free show on Tuesday.

Tim Fulton 39:25Okay.

Erik Tait 39:25A free show, free magic show every Tuesday, that... And there's free beer and wine there, too.

Tim Fulton 39:29Okay.

Erik Tait 39:30What the people who go see that show don't realize is that is the video arm of the world's largest retail magic website, penguinmagic.com. They're filming those shows because on Wednesday nights, then those magicians who do that show-

Tim Fulton 39:43Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 39:43... come in and lecture and explain their effects for sale to other magicians. And Penguin Magic-

Tim Fulton 39:48Oh, okay

Erik Tait 39:49... and Penguin Magic is not just producing great content and really great tricks for magicians to buy and learn and do, which is all great. They're bring- they, uh, for a long time, they were doing these lectures where they were bringing in living legends in magic and getting them to do their secrets, uh, on camera and explain not just how but why.

Tim Fulton 40:08Okay.

Erik Tait 40:09You know, guys like Bob White, who are getting up there. Eugene Burger, who suddenly pa- uh, who sadly passed away last year.

Tim Fulton 40:14Okay.

Erik Tait 40:15Uh, you know, the, the list goes on.

Tim Fulton 40:16Right.

Erik Tait 40:17They're creating an archive of the best magic right now, you know?

Tim Fulton 40:23For sale, I assume.

Erik Tait 40:24For sale, but if you... Who knows where some of that archival footage will go-

Tim Fulton 40:29Right

Erik Tait 40:29... that, that hits the cutting room floor because it's not good for, uh, for sale right now.

Tim Fulton 40:33Right.

Erik Tait 40:33I mean, they're, they're, they're creating an archive of, uh, of real history in magic and really preserving a lot of stuff that we weren't able to preserve a long time ago. And their work in, you know, building this audience-

Tim Fulton 40:46Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 40:47... has only benefited the other magicians who want to do public shows. You know, the, I, I keep hearing, uh, names of magicians in bars that I would not normally hear in a bar. Uh, it was, uh, it was a couple years ago, someone said, uh, "Oh, did you see, uh, uh, Kiko Pastore last week? Oh, man, that was such a good show."

Tim Fulton 41:09Mm.

Erik Tait 41:09And then the person... And I know both these people aren't magicians.

Tim Fulton 41:11Okay.

Erik Tait 41:12They're just normal people.

Tim Fulton 41:13Right.

Erik Tait 41:13And the other person said, "Oh, yeah, Kiko was great, but you know who I really like is Danny Ortiz." Now, those names mean nothing to you.

Tim Fulton 41:19Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 41:20But in magic, they're legends. These are names that I'm not used to hearing laypeople talk about.

Tim Fulton 41:25Okay.

Erik Tait 41:26That was a really special moment for me.

Tim Fulton 41:28Yeah.

Erik Tait 41:28And because Penguin is here, we've always got the best magicians in the world coming through. We've got a tremendous magic community, uh, who's doing really interesting things. Nicholas Lawrence is a goddamn witch.

Tim Fulton 41:40Okay.

Erik Tait 41:40Uh, and he's creating amazing stuff and uses the, uh, Short North Clintonville area as sort of a laboratory. He creates something new in his, like, office, and then he goes out and performs it for people, like, at, uh, you know, the, the bar, the N- uh, Short North Barcade or whatever.

Tim Fulton 41:55Okay.

Erik Tait 41:56And they're seeing these incredible things. Brandon Wolf is one of the, a huge for- underground force in coin magic right now.

Tim Fulton 42:02Okay.

Erik Tait 42:03He goes out and does great stuff. Nick Locapo is there. Dan Harlan's one of the creative magicians in the, in the world, and he's here doing all kinds of stuff. There's a lot of great stuff. It is centered around commerce-

Tim Fulton 42:14Okay

Erik Tait 42:14... because of the website, but there is truly amazing magicians who are here because of what they're doing-

Tim Fulton 42:22That's great

Erik Tait 42:22... commerce-wise.

Tim Fulton 42:23Yeah. Well, and I imagine, um, not only people coming here, but sort of fostering a scene and getting people to, like, do it-

Erik Tait 42:31Oh, yeah

Tim Fulton 42:31... and become interested in it.

Erik Tait 42:33Oh, yeah. And, and then, like, on top of that, all these guys who are doing these things will go out and do fun shows. Last year, Nick Locapo and I got together and wrote a show for The Refectory.

Tim Fulton 42:43Okay.

Erik Tait 42:43They wanted a show, like, back... They do, like, a music series back there.

Tim Fulton 42:46Okay.

Erik Tait 42:46And they, they came to us and said, "We'd really like a magic show in here. Can it be, like, a Halloween show?" And Nick and I said yeah, and we wrote brand-new magic, brand-new scripts. I wrote it, Nick performed it, and, you know, we sold it out. It was a lot of fun. I don't know if we'll ever do anything like that again.

Tim Fulton 43:01Right.

Erik Tait 43:02But it's... B- but that audience now goes ar- out and says, "Hey, magic is cool. It's not idiots pulling rabbits out of hats."

Tim Fulton 43:09Sometimes it's idiots pulling rabbits out of hats.

Erik Tait 43:11A lot of times it's idiots pulling rabbits out of hats.

Tim Fulton 43:13Anything else other than Nicky Winkelman, uh... Excuse me. In addition- In addition to Nikki Winkleman-

Erik Tait 43:21Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 43:21... are there other things in the comedy scene that people should be checking out?

Erik Tait 43:24Yeah, they should be checking out Whiskey- Whiskey Bear Comedy.

Tim Fulton 43:26Okay.

Erik Tait 43:27The stuff that Dustin Meadows is doing, he's putting on some really unique, really original shows. The Disney... Not just the Disney, the character roasts-

Tim Fulton 43:33Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 43:33... that he's doing are-

Tim Fulton 43:34Yeah

Erik Tait 43:34... so much fun. Hot Dog, a comedy show/hot dog eating contest, is one of the funniest things I've ever been a part of or seen. Uh, the, uh, he's always bringing great new comics to town.

Tim Fulton 43:46Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 43:46Uh, Stand Up for Choice, run by Pat Deering and Amber Falter-

Tim Fulton 43:49Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 43:49... is a really important show, uh, that is supporting, uh, uh, women's health-

Tim Fulton 43:54Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 43:54... and, uh, their right to choose and women's rights, and, uh, raising a bunch of money for that. That happens quarterly. They bring in great comics for that and raise a ton of money for a great cause.

Tim Fulton 44:02Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 44:03The, uh, op- the Monday night open mic at the Shrunken Head run by Nick Glasser-

Tim Fulton 44:08Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 44:08... is the best open mic in town. I mean, don't get me wrong, Barrel on H- uh, on High on Wednesday nights is-

Tim Fulton 44:14Yeah

Erik Tait 44:14... one of the oldest, longest running, and also a really great show. Uh, but Nick runs a, a fun show, too. I mean, and Nick, Nick's is, is... I love both of those rooms so much. Whenever I'm working on something new, I'm always hitting one of those two rooms. Uh, I could list a dozen comedians-

Tim Fulton 44:31Do you do your ma- your sleight of hand tricks at open mic comedy nights?

Erik Tait 44:34Yeah.

Tim Fulton 44:34Okay.

Erik Tait 44:35I always ask permission first because comedy-

Tim Fulton 44:38You're not just showing up with a car- literally a card table and a deck of cards.

Erik Tait 44:42No. I'm usually doing like a, like a stage parlor style trick that I wanna do, but I always ask permission from the host because magic is an inherently disruptive, uh, force on a show.

Tim Fulton 44:51Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 44:51You interact with the audience.

Tim Fulton 44:53I can see that, yeah.

Erik Tait 44:53The audience becomes, uh, interactive with you, and you have to figure out how to reset the audience back into a mode where they understand that the show is no longer interactive.

Tim Fulton 45:01Right.

Erik Tait 45:02'Cause there's... I've heard-

Tim Fulton 45:02'Cause then your, your... people are gonna be shouting out and-

Erik Tait 45:05Yeah

Tim Fulton 45:05... yeah.

Erik Tait 45:06And you ruin the, the experience for all the comics on the show.

Tim Fulton 45:08Right.

Erik Tait 45:08Like, I've been a comedian on a show that a magician was on, and did not know how to handle the crowd and get them back into a mode where like, "Okay, it's monologue time again," and it, it's just, it's awful.

Tim Fulton 45:18Well, yeah, then your five minutes is all about getting them to calm the fuck down.

Erik Tait 45:21Yeah.

Tim Fulton 45:21Yeah.

Erik Tait 45:22It, it, it sucks. So I'm, I'm very careful to always make sure that if I'm gonna do magic on a show, I'm either invited to do magic or I have p- the express permission from the person running the show.

Tim Fulton 45:31That's smart.

Erik Tait 45:32Because it's, it's really important to do that. Otherwise, I'm gonna do stand-up, and I like doing stand-up. It's, it's more fun. It's more dangerous, so.

Tim Fulton 45:39Is there anything that you think that Columbus in general can sort of do better at? Um, acknowledging that we have a great magic scene or going to more comedy shows or just some... I wanna talk about like, is there something specific that people aren't like, "Oh, shit, yeah, that should be better," or...

Erik Tait 45:59I mean, the w- I mean, the one thing that people can do is obviously go to more shows.

Tim Fulton 46:03Yeah.

Erik Tait 46:04There's, there's so many great things that are going on that, you know, they're going on all over the place. Uh, but I think it would be really great if an organization like, uh, the Greater Columbus Arts Council-

Tim Fulton 46:15Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 46:16... would get involved in the comedy scene and in the magic scene.

Tim Fulton 46:19Okay.

Erik Tait 46:20I was on their website today, and there are three magicians and two comedians who are listed on the performing arts page. Now, yes, these people have to go on there and, and apply themselves to, to get listed on the, on, as an artist on there.

Tim Fulton 46:36Right.

Erik Tait 46:37But it'd be one thing if the GCAC went, "Hey, there's, there's more than just theater, and there's different kinds of theater." 'Cause stand-up comedy, sketch comedy, and improv comedy are all ar- art forms in and of themselves.

Tim Fulton 46:50Absolutely.

Erik Tait 46:51And i- and if the, if they're gonna be the Greater Col- uh-

Tim Fulton 46:54Yeah, well-

Erik Tait 46:54... Columbus Arts Council, they should go out and seek other alternative forms of entertainment, not just what we consider high art, because comedy can be high art.

Tim Fulton 47:01Yeah.

Erik Tait 47:01Magic can be high art. If you go to Sp- I was in Madrid a couple months ago. There are five close-up magic theaters in Madrid. The c- the... There are, there's one close-up magic theater in Columbus.

Tim Fulton 47:12Right.

Erik Tait 47:13There's no close-up magic theaters in Dallas, Texas. You know? I mean, the, there's, there's also, there's only one in Los Angeles.

Tim Fulton 47:20Okay.

Erik Tait 47:20Most places in the country don't have any, but there are five in Madrid.

Tim Fulton 47:25Hmm.

Erik Tait 47:25That's a city that loves magic and supports magic, and they n- and they, and their arts scene also works with the magic scene. I mean-

Tim Fulton 47:36Right

Erik Tait 47:36... it has, it has a lot to do with the fact that this guy Juan Tamariz has been on Spanish television since the '60s, and so everybody sort of knows-

Tim Fulton 47:41So there's a re- that happened for a reason.

Erik Tait 47:43Yeah.

Tim Fulton 47:43But I think you're-

Erik Tait 47:44Yeah

Tim Fulton 47:44... you're absolutely right. And I mean, I will say that GCAC obviously lends a lot of support to folks like Shadowbox.

Erik Tait 47:51Yeah.

Tim Fulton 47:51Um, but-

Erik Tait 47:52They, they need to get involved with the underground scene.

Tim Fulton 47:54Yeah, absolutely.

Erik Tait 47:55They, they should, and there's, there's...

Tim Fulton 47:58Well, the depth and breadth that they have in terms of musicians-

Erik Tait 48:01Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 48:01... and, uh, visual artists-

Erik Tait 48:03Yeah

Tim Fulton 48:03... is impressive, I think.

Erik Tait 48:06Oh, yes.

Tim Fulton 48:07But, uh, I think that that, I'm not gonna call it a criticism, I'm gonna call it an invitation, is a valid one.

Erik Tait 48:14So right now, there is, uh, there's a ballot initiative or there's some sort of recommendation from GCAC for a 7% fee to be put on t- uh, live performance tickets.

Tim Fulton 48:25Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 48:25There's no carve-out for audiences less than 500. So what they're, and what they're, what, what they're saying is, "We wanna, uh, we want to add, uh, we wanna take this money and use it to, to fund live performance."

Tim Fulton 48:39Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 48:39Well, do you know where a lot of those shows are? They're comedy shows. They're magic shows. They're variety shows. They're, they're burlesque shows that are happening all over the place.

Tim Fulton 48:46Things that they in the past have not-

Erik Tait 48:48Yeah. Y-

Tim Fulton 48:49... given some, you know, at least, uh, uh, promotional support to.

Erik Tait 48:53Exactly. And those, uh, those shows, those audiences are tremendously price sensitive.

Tim Fulton 49:00Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 49:00You know, uh, Monday Night Live w- uh, who, a great sketch comedy, uh, troupe that I'm a part of.

Tim Fulton 49:05Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 49:06When our ticket price went from $7 to $8, there was a lot of pushback. I mean, $1. But the reason we had to do that was so we could take credit cards at the door so people weren't always like, "Oh, I can't go because I don't have cash on me."

Tim Fulton 49:17Right.

Erik Tait 49:17Showing up at the door and getting turned away.

Tim Fulton 49:18Right.

Erik Tait 49:18Right, and-

Tim Fulton 49:19And you're just covering processing fees-

Erik Tait 49:20Yeah

Tim Fulton 49:20... is all you're doing.

Erik Tait 49:21Yeah.

Tim Fulton 49:21Right.

Erik Tait 49:22That's... We're not doing anything like that. You know, when, when I ran, uh, my show at the Garden-

Tim Fulton 49:26Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 49:26... you know, anyone who paid by credit card added a, there was a $3 fee added on, right? For, for credit card ticketing fees.

Tim Fulton 49:32Right.

Erik Tait 49:32The same thing happened, uh, at The Quiz Box when, when they went from five to seven, there was a lot of pushback, but that was to cover fees that other companies were putting onto us.

Tim Fulton 49:41Right.

Erik Tait 49:41If they're gonna charge-

Tim Fulton 49:42And those are just banking fees-

Erik Tait 49:43Yeah

Tim Fulton 49:44... really, right?

Erik Tait 49:45That 7% fee can add up really quickly and can depress the, uh, the numbers of the audiences, and they don't ca- An audience member doesn't care, uh, why we're having to increase the, the ticket price. They care that we do have to.

Tim Fulton 49:57Right.

Erik Tait 49:57We're already operating-

Tim Fulton 49:58Well, how many of them are gonna say why?

Erik Tait 50:00No.

Tim Fulton 50:00They're just gonna say, "No."

Erik Tait 50:01Yeah.

Tim Fulton 50:01"Not interested in that."

Erik Tait 50:03And we're already operating on razor-thin, uh, profit margins.

Tim Fulton 50:06Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 50:06In addition to all of the added stress of producing these shows while running our day jobs.

Tim Fulton 50:11Right.

Erik Tait 50:12You know, I'm very lucky to have the great day job that I do, that I have, that is supportive of me pursuing my art form. A lot of people are not.

Tim Fulton 50:19Right.

Erik Tait 50:20And, and so-

Tim Fulton 50:21So it's inherently a lot more work.

Erik Tait 50:23Yeah.

Tim Fulton 50:23And frankly, you know, when you talk about razor-thin profit margins, you're not talking about this person's having trouble putting dinner on the table. You're just talking about them literally pocketing 40 bucks-

Erik Tait 50:34Yeah

Tim Fulton 50:34... for three weeks of work.

Erik Tait 50:36Yeah.

Tim Fulton 50:36It's not like... It's literally a token-

Erik Tait 50:40Yes

Tim Fulton 50:41... of their work. It's not, "Oh, I'm a professional comedian now."

Erik Tait 50:45No.

Tim Fulton 50:45It's a lot of work. It's well below minimum wage what they're actually putting, putting out there and putting up there.

Erik Tait 50:51I think that their ticket fee idea, their heart's in the right place.

Tim Fulton 50:54Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 50:54But the execution is way off base.

Tim Fulton 50:57And I'm not familiar enough with it at this point, uh-

Erik Tait 51:00Fair enough

Tim Fulton 51:00... at the time of this recording, uh, to comment on it. Um, but I s- think certainly there's an opportunity for further explanation-

Erik Tait 51:08Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 51:08... and feedback, if it is-

Erik Tait 51:10Yeah

Tim Fulton 51:10... structured the way that, that folks have been sort of ranting online about.

Erik Tait 51:14There, there is, uh, a huge group of people who is producing tremendous amount of content and this live, lively, vibrant art scene-

Tim Fulton 51:23Mm-hmm

Erik Tait 51:23... that the GCAC wants, uh, to promote more of.

Tim Fulton 51:26Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 51:27And all they have to do if they wanna generate, uh, money to be able to, uh, feed back into this scene is reach out to that community to say, "How can we work together to raise money for this?" Because-

Tim Fulton 51:38Right. Rather than imposing something.

Erik Tait 51:40Look at Stand Up For Choice. You know, that is a grassroots thing that started with two comedians going, "I think it would be really great if women had more access to healthcare options."

Tim Fulton 51:49Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 51:49"So let's go do a show to raise money for it." And they've raised tens of thousands of dollars-

Tim Fulton 51:54Yeah

Erik Tait 51:54... on the sweat of their own back. You don't think that those two people, if they weren't sort of focused a little bit on raising money to get other, uh, to get awareness about all the great underground comedy and variety arts going on, that they couldn't raise a couple million if, if an organization like GCAC backed them?

Tim Fulton 52:10Mm-hmm.

Erik Tait 52:10Let's have a good conversation and go find out a better way to do this.

Tim Fulton 52:14I see what you're saying.

Erik Tait 52:15End of rant off of soapbox.

Tim Fulton 52:17Great. Eric, thank you so much for doing this today.

Erik Tait 52:19Hmm. Thank you.

Tim Fulton 52:31Thank you for listening to Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite magician. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.