Former Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx
How is Columbus going to deal with its anticipated growth? Former United States Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx, who was in town for MORPC’s State of the Region meeting sat down with Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren to discuss that, the importance of helping people with technology, and autonomous vehicles.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we're discussing the Columbus region's position in the transit landscape with former United States Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx. First up, Foxx, who now works in policy for Lyft, sat down with Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren to discuss the importance of helping people with technology. They talked about autonomous vehicles and dealing with the impending growth of Columbus. After that chat, you'll hear Foxx's speech at the MORPC 2019 State of the Region meeting last week. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive Central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview. All right. Anthony Foxx, thanks for being here with us today. Really appreciate it. Uh, we have to talk about the Smart City Challenge. I mean, that was, uh, kind of a signature initiative of yours at the Department of Transportation. And I was at an event years ago when Columbus was a finalist among the different cities and, and you spoke at that event. And here we are, I think almost three years after Columbus won the challenge. Have you been following the progress of Columbus since that time? Well, I unfortunately haven't been back to Columbus-
Yeah ... since we announced the challenge, but I certainly have been following- Mm-hmm ... the progress of it. Um, actually talking to people from around the world. Um, many of my former counterparts in other parts of the world have come to Columbus to see what is happening here. And, uh, it's also a sign of, of how important what Columbus is doing here to the rest of the world.
Mm-hmm. And what, what is it that people are interested in seeing in Columbus? Well, uh, obviously there's a, there's a high interest in the integration of technology in transportation. It's a big topic, not only in the U.S. but all over the world. Uh, and so that draws a lot of very high interest. Uh, this is gonna be a bit of a test bed for, uh, many things, autonomous vehicles, uh, how, uh, trucking and, and transportation, uh, and technology evolve, um, sustainability, electrification of the fleet. All those things are gonna be the subject of a lot of, uh, a lot of intense scrutiny. But what I also have been, uh, watching and following is, uh, the extent to which Columbus is successful at elevating people above technology. Uh, one of the challenges we face today is that there's such a rush to integrate new technologies. We're sometimes not thinking about the users and the people who are affected. And, um, hopefully technology will serve humanity well, but I think Columbus will be at the tip of the spear in, in proving that out one way or the other. Mm-hmm. That's interesting. I think there's been a lot of talk about that in Columbus. How do you maintain the equity and make sure that these systems work for everybody, not just people who can afford them? Do you see that as a public sector role to make sure that happens? How does the private sector play into that? Well, typically, um, the private sector is, is, is out, out to sell something. Um, but in this case, the cities have an inordinate amount of both responsibility and latitude to set the terms of engagement. And those terms should include s- solutions that actually pick up the entire population. And that's one of the reasons why equity was a part of the Smart City Challenge from the beginning as a criteria, is that we wanted to, um, to, to challenge both cities and innovators to think about how to make technology more broadly available.
Mm-hmm. You're here to speak to a group of leaders in, in the region, in, in Central Ohio. Do you have a set of advice you're giving out to a ... to a city like Columbus when we're seeing all this change in transportation and there's a lot of uncertainty about how things are going to evolve, and how do we plan for a future like that? Yeah. Um, probably the biggest, the biggest thing I will, I will say is that, that Columbus has, has, has won this challenge out of, uh, sincere effort and sincere competition. Uh, it wasn't given to Columbus. You won it. And actually, uh, while the hard work may have been done to get the grant, uh, and all the various things that have come with it, the real hard work is what you're doing now, which is trying to execute against the vision you have. Uh, one of the reasons why Columbus stood out was because it had a very clear idea of, of who and what it was, and who and what it wanted to be. And the technology was assistive, it wasn't central. And I think that still needs to be true. Where do you see, um... Autonomous vehicles have been a big top of- topic of conversation. That was a big part of the Smart Cities, um, initiative. When you were secretary of the Department of Transportation, there was a... You released the first federal policy on AVs. Mm-hmm.
Where do you... Where are we now? 'Cause it, it seems like, um, the talk has kind of slowed down ... in terms of the, a timeline for adoption of AVs. What do you think about that? Well, there's still a lot of work to be done at the, at the governmental level. Um, you know, we put out the most comprehensive autonomous vehicle guidance at that point the world had ever seen, and we laid out essential divisions of labor between the federal government, state governments, the private sector, and even consumers. And our thought was that over time, the meat would get put on the bone, so to speak. And so there's an entire set of federal regulations that need to be promulgated, and Congress at some point needs to, needs to weigh in on, uh, some of our thoughts. Uh, the states, you know, just to use an example, today you and I drive cars, and so to go to DMV and have our wonderful experience doing our driver's test is, is part of how the state determines whether we're safe operators. When you have software operating vehicles, um, is that still gonna be a state function, or should that be roped under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards? And our view was that it, the federal, uh, safety standards could pick up the operating software. Hmm. But that, that could be controversial.
Mm-hmm. And Co- Congress can settle that question with legislation. Mm-hmm. Um, so those kinds of, you know, lanes of operation between the federal and state government I think still need to be figured out. Uh, I also think that there's a lot of work that needs to happen in the private sector around, um, you know, rules around privacy, uh, rules around data sharing.
Mm-hmm. Um, you know, if a Ford car runs over a pothole, uh, and notices it, um, why shouldn't it tell the other vehicles of different makes and models- Mm-hmm ... about that pothole? So, you know, how much shared learning will exist across the entire platform of autonomous vehicles is something the private sector's gonna have to work on. So-
And that extends to accidents, too. I mean, if- Correct ... something goes wrong, then- Yes
... that, that data needs to be shared- Correct ... publicly. And the, and includ- Well, I think, I think that how it gets meted out is gonna be, uh, you know, a conversation with industry, but, uh, even near accidents, even a, a, an autonomous vehicle that maneuvers around, uh, and avoids an accident, even that learning is something that I think needs to be discussed, is poten- potentially shared between, uh, providers. So that's a conversation that's ongoing. But, uh, all that to say that, um, that it's gonna take a while for the regulatory system to catch up to the technology. I think the technology is moving very quickly.
Mm-hmm. Um, but I think we'll be probably 10, 10 years or more out before the average person in America can call up a, an autonomous vehicle. Mm-hmm. Now, that, that said, I think you will see, um, you know, actually, uh, in our company, Lyft has, uh, has some vehicles out in the road in, uh, in Las Vegas. We have a partnership with Aaptiv, and, and those vehicles are on the road providing-
Mm-hmm ... service today. So, uh, you'll see it in spots. But- And there's still, there's still a person in the driver's seat- Yeah
... of those. Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah.
Great. Um, I'm curious to hear your thoughts because Charlotte had a different approach than Columbus in the last 20 years or so, you know. Charlotte built out a light rail system. Mm-hmm. Columbus hasn't done that. Where do you see... What is the role going forward for those kind of systems? Well, you know, I think some of the answer lies into, you know, the extent to which there'll be federal support for, uh, significant capital investments in mass transit. And over the last 40 years, we've seen a steady decline. Uh, when I was mayor of Charlotte, I, I had a conversation with Mayor Kasim Reed of Atlanta, uh, in which he told me that, uh, the Atlanta MARTA system, uh, was paid 80% federal. Uh, our system in Charlotte was about 50% federal. Uh, so the trend line looks more like-
Mm-hmm ... less and less federal investment and more and more local investment. Uh, and I think that will start to limit, um, the options available to local governments. So, um, for now we'll see, um, a lot more emphasis on, uh, bus fleets, uh, except in those cases where cities have built up substantial dedicated resources to build, uh, some of the more fixed rail systems. Mm-hmm. Looking forward from kind of this point in the transition of all these different transportation systems, what do you think are the biggest challenges that cities are gonna face in the next 10 years? So one of the challenges is just dealing with growth. You know, here in Columbus, I w- I was told that, uh, Realtor.com just, just tagged you as the hottest market. Uh, and so people are wanting to live in a place like this region, and, um, when you get m- you know, years of, of, uh, significant growth, you have challenges with where to house people, uh, how to get people from one place to another. The same trip to the grocery store that was 10 minutes, you know, 10 years ago may be 20 minutes today. And, uh, so that kind of challenge is one that's common to a lot of cities. You know, there's some solutions that, that are pretty readily available, but they're not as well understood. Um, the first one is land use is a powerful weapon to help, um, help integrate- ... growth into a community. Um, and, uh, many communities, Charlotte included, uh, were really working to put density in certain areas where the infrastructure could handle it, and to keep it away from areas where it was gonna be more problematic-
Mm-hmm ... or more costly. Uh, that is a significant weapon that many communities underutilize. Um, building out the facilities that are necessary to move people. Um, you know, transit I think is absolutely a critical part of how futures will, uh, cities will evolve in the future. Uh, third, another conversation we don't have enough in this country is, uh, what infrastructure don't we need? Mm-hmm. Uh, what facilities do we have in place now that we, that are costly to maintain, that don't pr- provide a particular travel advantage-
Mm-hmm ... uh, that we could do without? I th- actually think some of our interior freeways can sometimes be taken down. Mm-hmm. Um, and, uh, restoring the old street grid, uh, providing more, uh, space for parks and maybe affordable housing and other things. Um, and so that's another conversation that I think needs to be had. And then finally, um, you know, there are all kinds of, um, third par- third party, um, sources now that are now providing private sector led transportation mobility options like Lyft, that, uh, I think also provide a huge opportunity.
Mm-hmm. And how does the public sector make sure that those private sector solutions, um, are sort of a benefit to the, to the greater community, and not just for certain people? I mean, sometimes they could even add to congestion. They can add to some of these issues that cities are having. Well, um, you know, one of the, one of the major issues w- we're, we're, we're gonna face as a society is how attached to the personal automobile are we? And, uh, you know, particularly for middle class families and families on the margins, um, it's the second largest expense for people to pay for buying a car. It's like $8,000 or $9,000 on average across the country. So if we can create, uh, a system where people can move seamlessly without having to undergo that expense, they can actually buy the trips without buying the car, that's a huge game change for many families. It puts money back in their pockets. So, um, you know, services like ours offer a great opportunity for people to kinda de-leverage and actually just put out the resources for the actual trips they're using. And by the way, our cars are idle 95% of the time. Mm-hmm. So that's not helping either. So I, I, I think when we talk about the net benefit of these, you know, ride shares and other, other things, um, you know, you have to have adequate supply for people to feel like it's an option.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, at some point there'll be a tipping point where people will actually start to rationalize the car ownership versus the u- utility of a car. Mm-hmm. Great. Thanks for speaking with us. Thank you.
Appreciate it. You got it. No sweat. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit MORPC.org. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mayor, for that rousing introduction. It is always good to be here in Columbus, Ohio. I was told last night over dinner that there was something I had to do at the beginning. We'll see if my advice that I was given was correct. O-H?
O! All right. Got that started out. Then I was also told to say, uh, "Go Jackets." Apparently a pretty big, uh, pretty big victory for, uh, for the O Jackets, so congratulations and good luck on the next phase of the playoffs. Uh, it's great to be here. Uh, let me, let me say to William and, and the team here, uh, at MORPC, uh, thank you so much for inviting me to talk to you a little bit today, uh, now that I'm in the private sector, uh, don't have all of the instrumentalities of government at my fingertips, uh, to give you a perspective on where you sit in the context of not just transportation, but the, the over- overall effort that's really been an effort since mankind, uh, was at the beginning to figure out not only how we can move places faster and better, but how we can make the human experience more meaningful, which I think is actually a more important goal than any technology. Um, I wanna start out by telling you a little bit about me. Um, I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, uh, and, uh, you know, the home of Michael Jordan, uh, the home of Steph Curry. Sorry, some of you. Although he was born in Cleveland, believe it or not. Um- But 47 years ago, I was born in, in a part of Charlotte, North Carolina, the northwest part of the city, in a little, um, split level, 1900 square feet, that was circumscribed by freeways. When I looked out of the front door, I could see I-77. And if I walked out in the front yard and turned to the right, I could see I-85. And there were fences that more or less locked in my neighborhood. As a child, I didn't understand this as a socioeconomic phenomenon. It was just my neighborhood. But over time, what I started to realize as I went into school and started to see more of what was beyond those walls that I saw when I woke up in the morning, I started to understand that the decisions that were made 50, 40, 30 years earlier were made with the idea that, that the area that I grew up in was an area to go through. But it was not an area to go to. Society had all but said to me as a child, "You don't matter. Your ambitions don't matter." And statistically, if you had said in, on my birthday in 1971, if you had said, "Well, this is gonna be the future transportation secretary, the future mayor of our city," no one would have believed you. And so I stand here to some extent representing those people. I don't care where they live, urban, rural, suburban. I don't care what their race is. But those people who are out there who are hungry, hungry to make a difference in this world and to do something to make their lives meaningful, not only to them and their families, but to society in general. Those people are out there. You can go out to the Long Street Bridge today and you can, you can spend quite a bit of time watching and learning about the history of the King Lincoln neighborhood and the people whose lives were changed by the creation of a freeway, much like your grandparents, William. So the context in which I wanna talk to you today is not so much about all of the great things about technology. It's that the fundamental problem we still face, the fundamental challenge that we still have, is how do we build a future in which everybody is a part of it? How do we build an inclusive future with all of these amazing tools of technology that are available to us? And the simple message, my friends, is that our default systems won't do it. Our old ways of thinking won't do it. And by the way, I love engineers. I said this earlier today. Some of my best friends are engineers. Okay? Let me make this point. But engineers are trained to solve a problem and if the problem isn't defined well enough for them, they will solve it in a narrow fashion. And so for all of us, you know, whether we're building physical structures or whether we're building technologies or doing some mixture of the two, the fundamental challenge of how we all live in the same space, how we see each other as neighbors and friends and, uh, fellow travelers on the path of progress as a, as a country, as a community, as a state, those challenges are still with us. And no one has yet figured out the best way to do that. Now, let me tell you something else. So fast-forward a little bit. I get elected to local government and I... One of the best things mayor, uh, that, that we did every, every third Monday in Charlotte, we had a zoning meeting. And man, if you want a riveting meeting to attend, you go attend a zoning meeting. Oh my goodness. Every, every month. One of these zoning meetings we were making decisions about, you know, should, should we have three residential units to the acre or should we zone for multifamily or where should the density be and so forth. And over time, I started to, to develop an interest in actually going out and looking at these sites. And I went out to one greenfield area once and they, they, they showed me this major mixed-use development they were doing. The developer walked me down where the road would be. We made a left turn and he said, "This is gonna be the grand corridor, and you're gonna have storefronts that are gonna align the streets, and over those storefronts are gonna be live-work units. And then right at the end, there's gonna be, uh, a hotel on this side, and if you turn around and look backwards, there's gonna be a movie theater on that side, and people are gonna stroll through this area." Now, for you planners, you understand what I'm leading up to, but for the rest of you, what I learned and what I understood was that our built environment, even though we think we're making choices all the time to turn left and turn right and go straight and do it, everything, every movement we make, even in this convention center, has been thought about intimately. And we, we may make spontaneous choices to go one way or another, but those choices are shaped by how the built environment is shaped. And that is the key to why I got interested in transportation in the first place because I understood that it was for me, the difference in my life, a lot of it came down to the fact that even incidental, spontaneous interactions with people you don't know connect you to that person and their experiences in ways that, frankly, I think technology is challenging us against doing today. Uh, you can put on your earbuds and walk down the street and walk past 25 people. Uh, we're starting to have a little problem now of people, uh, actually distracted walking. And technology can be a force for good, but it can also be, uh, a force that actually puts us more into the own-- to our own pods of thinking and, and intersecting with other people. So when I went to the US Department of Transportation, I was a little bit like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Uh, a lot of people in Washington who've been there years and years were like, "Who is this guy? What does he know?" And the one thing I knew when I went to Washington was that Washington couldn't solve every problem I faced back in my community. I knew that there was a well store of innovation waiting to happen at the local level, and if the levers of government were maneuvered just right, maybe we could unlock some of that innovation. So my staff came to me, um, maybe a year or two into my tenure and, and they said, "We've got an idea of a technology challenge." And we started talking through it. And from the day we started talking about this challenge, it took us a full year before we announced that we were doing the Smart City Challenge, and a large part of it was because the federal government historically doesn't do challenges that provide an open-ended invitation to local communities to invent the future. It's not what the federal government does. We typically wanted to, you know, we give money out for you to build a road. We wanna come out and look at the road or to buy a transit bus, and we wanna go out and look at the bus. But how many times has your federal government ever said, "We know the solutions are out there. We need to create the laboratory for those solutions to actually come to bear"? That's what we endeavored to do. So we opened up the Smart City Challenge. We had 70-some-odd cities apply. And from my vantage point, the challenge had already done its job in the sense that what we had done is we'd, we'd given local communities an incentive to think outside the lines, to really think about how they could harness technology to solve the problems they faced. And we were deliberate in not being prescriptive. We didn't wanna tell you to buy X number of electric vehicles or X number of autonomous shuttles or what have you. We wanted to lay out broad parameters and let Columbus figure out how Columbus wanted to fit into that or Portland or the other cities the mayor mentioned. So I had an opportunity to meet, uh, Alex Fisher and Mayor Ginther, as they said, and, uh, one of our early conversations, I think the question... I may be misre- misremembering this, Mayor. Uh, but one of the questions was, "Can we really win this thing?" And I said, "Absolutely, you can win it." And as we went through the process, we down-selected to seven cities. Columbus was one of the seven. And we went through another process around that. And let me tell you why Columbus won. You won because you had real conviction about the problems you faced. You had real urgency around using this grant as a way to tackle those challenges. And frankly, for all the work that you all did and all the collaboration to actually win the Smart City Challenge, we knew, and I think you knew, that the real hard work lie ahead. Those hard conversations with communities that have historically been underserved who are now being invited to the table and may not feel quite as eager because of past experience. The push-pull between the various, uh, pieces of the business community and the public trying to figure out how to balance those equities. Ladies and gentlemen, please don't think these challenges are unique to Columbus. Even working through those is creating the progress our country and our world need. There's another thing that I should also mention, and, and, and, uh, the mayor has talked about this. Um, you know, we go to a lot of places. I don't know about you, but, you know, when I'm doing a job interview, uh, with someone and everything they have to say is awesome about themselves, I'm kind of thinking a little skeptically about it. So we go to all these cities and it's like, "Man, we got the best this, we got the best that, we got the best other thing, we got this, that, do, do." And I'm like, "Man, really?" We came to Columbus. You guys, like, you've got a big cheerleading section here, by the way. You've got major, major universities and thought leadership. You've got an incredible auto sector that's got, uh, so much to it. You've got healthcare and insurance and financial services. You're- you've got an amazing story to tell. And by the way, you should never, ever, ever feel bashful about telling that story. Uh, it is, it is an amazing story. Uh, but you're also clear-eyed about your challenges, infant mortality being one of them. And I'll tell you, I've been all around the world. I've been in a lot of places. And 98% of the conversation around smart cities is about technology. And what my fear is, and the reason why this challenge and this grant are so critical, not just to you, but to the world, is because in its, in its criteria, we focused on not just the technology, not people serving the technology, but the technology serving the people. That is a critical element of what you're doing, and it makes your job actually a little harder than it does in the rest of the world. But it is precisely because of that that you will set the pace for how the world views smart cities. Now, uh, let me tell you a few other things that may not be as much fun. Uh, I think that the hard work you're doing, and I know it's hard work. I, I don't wanna overemphasize it, but I think the hard work you're doing is exciting for several reasons. Number one, you are creating a regional... You're actually creating a smart region. So much of what I've heard today is not just about the city of Columbus, but it's about the suburban ring around Columbus and the rural ring around that and, and how you're starting to integrate the thinking around this, uh, this entire region. One of the things that I wanted to do as secretary was to create a, uh, a dig once program. When you're doing a road construction project that you, you put fiber optic cable in some of our rural areas that have historically not had access to, uh, to, to, uh, fiber optic and the high-speed internet, and you're doing that in this region or will be soon. We talked about creating plans that are regionally based. That is critically important. If you've got industries that are all linked together but they fall outside of the city of Columbus or outside of Lime or other parts of this region, it doesn't-- it's not a license for each jurisdiction to kind of come up with its own strategy to try to, try to, uh, capture opportunities. It's an opportunity for the region to figure out how to build on more of all the assets it has, and you're doing that. Look, I'm excited about the autonomous shuttles. Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about, uh, you know, some of the work you're doing on, uh, drone technology. I'm excited about, uh, uh, the, uh, the, uh, DSRC technology that you're, you're, you're investing in and you're seeing happen in the region. But I'm more excited in what is different here than probably anywhere else I've been is the integration of all these different technologies and the unifying vision that sort of runs through them. That is the essence of what a smart city and a smart region should be. Look, in Charlotte, we had five MPOs and RPOs in our region, William. Like a family, sometimes we agreed, sometimes we didn't. It was difficult sometimes. But what I want to say to you is that your gathering today is part of a long march into the future. And every part of this region has to be included in that future. And the way that you guys have already started to build that future together is pointing the way, not only here in America, but really all over the world. So I want to leave you with a little bit of a challenge. I told you about the world I walked into. But sometime, if not today, maybe over this weekend or the next few days, I want every person in this room to close your eyes. And I want you to imagine a young person, any young person, growing up in this region and what kind of future you imagine for that young person. A future where that young person may be safer because of the technologies that you have an opportunity to deploy, which in some corners is estimating 80% reductions in vehicle fatalities and deaths. I want you to imagine a future in which that person may not come from a family where someone's gone off to college or may not even be in a place that's proximate to the best available schools or junior colleges. But there is a way that person can access transportation that's going to connect him or her to that future. I want you to maybe imagine a mom who's working two jobs to take care of her kids and whose trip gets cut in half because of the planning and thought processes that you all are undertaking. We're not and you're not in the business of just trying to build a good future. You are not and we are not in the game here to build a future that repeats the challenges and the problems that we inherited. No, Columbus, you've got a chance to build a better future. You've got a chance to right some of the wrongs and to bring all of Ohio and all of America together and all the world with you. That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. But you're the tip of the spear. We picked you because you could handle it. And I look forward to coming back here year after year. By the way, as a transportation secretary, you kind of live a little bit through the things that you did as secretary. And I would often in the cabinet room, we'd be sitting there and I'll close on this. We would sit in the cabinet room and I'd look across the table and the only person who really understood my job other than the president, of course, about as well as I did was Arne Duncan, who was our education secretary. And I used to talk to Arne about this because we had the only two jobs in the cabinet that get defined by what happened, happens over the next 20 years. And so for me, I am, my heart is full being here in Columbus today because I know you all are on the right track. I know you all are struggling with the right things. And it's okay to struggle a little bit here because if you struggle over the right things, you're more likely to get to the right answer. And if you get to the right answer, you create the template for someone else, the next city, the next state. So folks, thank you so much. It's great to be with you. I'm enjoying my time here in Columbus, but mostly I'm enjoying the future you all are building. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite commuter. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info at theconfluencecast.com. Special thanks this week to Columbus Government Television. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.
Transcript5,921 words
Tim Fulton Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we're discussing the Columbus region's position in the transit landscape with former United States Secretary of Transportation Anthony Foxx. First up, Foxx, who now works in policy for Lyft, sat down with Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren to discuss the importance of helping people with technology. They talked about autonomous vehicles and dealing with the impending growth of Columbus. After that chat, you'll hear Foxx's speech at the MORPC 2019 State of the Region meeting last week. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive Central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview.
Brent Warren All right.
Anthony Foxx All right.
Brent Warren Anthony Foxx, thanks for being here with us today. Really appreciate it. Uh, we have to talk about the Smart City Challenge. I mean, that was, uh, kind of a signature initiative of yours at the Department of Transportation. And I was at an event years ago when Columbus was a finalist among the different cities and, and you spoke at that event. And here we are, I think almost three years after Columbus won the challenge. Have you been following the progress of Columbus since that time?
Anthony Foxx Well, I unfortunately haven't been back to Columbus-
Brent Warren Yeah
Anthony Foxx ... since we announced the challenge, but I certainly have been following-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... the progress of it. Um, actually talking to people from around the world. Um, many of my former counterparts in other parts of the world have come to Columbus to see what is happening here. And, uh, it's also a sign of, of how important what Columbus is doing here to the rest of the world.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. And what, what is it that people are interested in seeing in Columbus?
Anthony Foxx Well, uh, obviously there's a, there's a high interest in the integration of technology in transportation. It's a big topic, not only in the U.S. but all over the world. Uh, and so that draws a lot of very high interest. Uh, this is gonna be a bit of a test bed for, uh, many things, autonomous vehicles, uh, how, uh, trucking and, and transportation, uh, and technology evolve, um, sustainability, electrification of the fleet. All those things are gonna be the subject of a lot of, uh, a lot of intense scrutiny. But what I also have been, uh, watching and following is, uh, the extent to which Columbus is successful at elevating people above technology. Uh, one of the challenges we face today is that there's such a rush to integrate new technologies. We're sometimes not thinking about the users and the people who are affected. And, um, hopefully technology will serve humanity well, but I think Columbus will be at the tip of the spear in, in proving that out one way or the other.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. That's interesting. I think there's been a lot of talk about that in Columbus. How do you maintain the equity and make sure that these systems work for everybody, not just people who can afford them? Do you see that as a public sector role to make sure that happens? How does the private sector play into that?
Anthony Foxx Well, typically, um, the private sector is, is, is out, out to sell something. Um, but in this case, the cities have an inordinate amount of both responsibility and latitude to set the terms of engagement. And those terms should include s- solutions that actually pick up the entire population. And that's one of the reasons why equity was a part of the Smart City Challenge from the beginning as a criteria, is that we wanted to, um, to, to challenge both cities and innovators to think about how to make technology more broadly available.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. You're here to speak to a group of leaders in, in the region, in, in Central Ohio. Do you have a set of advice you're giving out to a ... to a city like Columbus when we're seeing all this change in transportation and there's a lot of uncertainty about how things are going to evolve, and how do we plan for a future like that?
Anthony Foxx Yeah. Um, probably the biggest, the biggest thing I will, I will say is that, that Columbus has, has, has won this challenge out of, uh, sincere effort and sincere competition. Uh, it wasn't given to Columbus. You won it. And actually, uh, while the hard work may have been done to get the grant, uh, and all the various things that have come with it, the real hard work is what you're doing now, which is trying to execute against the vision you have. Uh, one of the reasons why Columbus stood out was because it had a very clear idea of, of who and what it was, and who and what it wanted to be. And the technology was assistive, it wasn't central. And I think that still needs to be true.
Brent Warren Where do you see, um... Autonomous vehicles have been a big top of- topic of conversation. That was a big part of the Smart Cities, um, initiative. When you were secretary of the Department of Transportation, there was a... You released the first federal policy on AVs.
Anthony Foxx Mm-hmm.
Brent Warren Where do you... Where are we now? 'Cause it, it seems like, um, the talk has kind of slowed down ... in terms of the, a timeline for adoption of AVs. What do you think about that?
Anthony Foxx Well, there's still a lot of work to be done at the, at the governmental level. Um, you know, we put out the most comprehensive autonomous vehicle guidance at that point the world had ever seen, and we laid out essential divisions of labor between the federal government, state governments, the private sector, and even consumers. And our thought was that over time, the meat would get put on the bone, so to speak. And so there's an entire set of federal regulations that need to be promulgated, and Congress at some point needs to, needs to weigh in on, uh, some of our thoughts. Uh, the states, you know, just to use an example, today you and I drive cars, and so to go to DMV and have our wonderful experience doing our driver's test is, is part of how the state determines whether we're safe operators. When you have software operating vehicles, um, is that still gonna be a state function, or should that be roped under the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards? And our view was that it, the federal, uh, safety standards could pick up the operating software.
Brent Warren Hmm.
Anthony Foxx But that, that could be controversial.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx And Co- Congress can settle that question with legislation.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Um, so those kinds of, you know, lanes of operation between the federal and state government I think still need to be figured out. Uh, I also think that there's a lot of work that needs to happen in the private sector around, um, you know, rules around privacy, uh, rules around data sharing.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Um, you know, if a Ford car runs over a pothole, uh, and notices it, um, why shouldn't it tell the other vehicles of different makes and models-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... about that pothole? So, you know, how much shared learning will exist across the entire platform of autonomous vehicles is something the private sector's gonna have to work on. So-
Brent Warren And that extends to accidents, too. I mean, if-
Anthony Foxx Correct
Brent Warren ... something goes wrong, then-
Anthony Foxx Yes
Brent Warren ... that, that data needs to be shared-
Anthony Foxx Correct
Brent Warren ... publicly.
Anthony Foxx And the, and includ- Well, I think, I think that how it gets meted out is gonna be, uh, you know, a conversation with industry, but, uh, even near accidents, even a, a, an autonomous vehicle that maneuvers around, uh, and avoids an accident, even that learning is something that I think needs to be discussed, is poten- potentially shared between, uh, providers. So that's a conversation that's ongoing. But, uh, all that to say that, um, that it's gonna take a while for the regulatory system to catch up to the technology. I think the technology is moving very quickly.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Um, but I think we'll be probably 10, 10 years or more out before the average person in America can call up a, an autonomous vehicle.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Now, that, that said, I think you will see, um, you know, actually, uh, in our company, Lyft has, uh, has some vehicles out in the road in, uh, in Las Vegas. We have a partnership with Aaptiv, and, and those vehicles are on the road providing-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... service today. So, uh, you'll see it in spots. But-
Brent Warren And there's still, there's still a person in the driver's seat-
Anthony Foxx Yeah
Brent Warren ... of those.
Anthony Foxx Yeah.
Brent Warren Yeah, right.
Anthony Foxx Yeah.
Brent Warren Great. Um, I'm curious to hear your thoughts because Charlotte had a different approach than Columbus in the last 20 years or so, you know. Charlotte built out a light rail system.
Anthony Foxx Mm-hmm.
Brent Warren Columbus hasn't done that. Where do you see... What is the role going forward for those kind of systems?
Anthony Foxx Well, you know, I think some of the answer lies into, you know, the extent to which there'll be federal support for, uh, significant capital investments in mass transit. And over the last 40 years, we've seen a steady decline. Uh, when I was mayor of Charlotte, I, I had a conversation with Mayor Kasim Reed of Atlanta, uh, in which he told me that, uh, the Atlanta MARTA system, uh, was paid 80% federal. Uh, our system in Charlotte was about 50% federal. Uh, so the trend line looks more like-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... less and less federal investment and more and more local investment. Uh, and I think that will start to limit, um, the options available to local governments. So, um, for now we'll see, um, a lot more emphasis on, uh, bus fleets, uh, except in those cases where cities have built up substantial dedicated resources to build, uh, some of the more fixed rail systems.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. Looking forward from kind of this point in the transition of all these different transportation systems, what do you think are the biggest challenges that cities are gonna face in the next 10 years?
Anthony Foxx So one of the challenges is just dealing with growth. You know, here in Columbus, I w- I was told that, uh, Realtor.com just, just tagged you as the hottest market. Uh, and so people are wanting to live in a place like this region, and, um, when you get m- you know, years of, of, uh, significant growth, you have challenges with where to house people, uh, how to get people from one place to another. The same trip to the grocery store that was 10 minutes, you know, 10 years ago may be 20 minutes today. And, uh, so that kind of challenge is one that's common to a lot of cities. You know, there's some solutions that, that are pretty readily available, but they're not as well understood. Um, the first one is land use is a powerful weapon to help, um, help integrate- ... growth into a community. Um, and, uh, many communities, Charlotte included, uh, were really working to put density in certain areas where the infrastructure could handle it, and to keep it away from areas where it was gonna be more problematic-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... or more costly. Uh, that is a significant weapon that many communities underutilize. Um, building out the facilities that are necessary to move people. Um, you know, transit I think is absolutely a critical part of how futures will, uh, cities will evolve in the future. Uh, third, another conversation we don't have enough in this country is, uh, what infrastructure don't we need?
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Uh, what facilities do we have in place now that we, that are costly to maintain, that don't pr- provide a particular travel advantage-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Anthony Foxx ... uh, that we could do without? I th- actually think some of our interior freeways can sometimes be taken down.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx Um, and, uh, restoring the old street grid, uh, providing more, uh, space for parks and maybe affordable housing and other things. Um, and so that's another conversation that I think needs to be had. And then finally, um, you know, there are all kinds of, um, third par- third party, um, sources now that are now providing private sector led transportation mobility options like Lyft, that, uh, I think also provide a huge opportunity.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm. And how does the public sector make sure that those private sector solutions, um, are sort of a benefit to the, to the greater community, and not just for certain people? I mean, sometimes they could even add to congestion. They can add to some of these issues that cities are having.
Anthony Foxx Well, um, you know, one of the, one of the major issues w- we're, we're, we're gonna face as a society is how attached to the personal automobile are we? And, uh, you know, particularly for middle class families and families on the margins, um, it's the second largest expense for people to pay for buying a car. It's like $8,000 or $9,000 on average across the country. So if we can create, uh, a system where people can move seamlessly without having to undergo that expense, they can actually buy the trips without buying the car, that's a huge game change for many families. It puts money back in their pockets. So, um, you know, services like ours offer a great opportunity for people to kinda de-leverage and actually just put out the resources for the actual trips they're using. And by the way, our cars are idle 95% of the time.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx So that's not helping either. So I, I, I think when we talk about the net benefit of these, you know, ride shares and other, other things, um, you know, you have to have adequate supply for people to feel like it's an option.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Anthony Foxx And, uh, at some point there'll be a tipping point where people will actually start to rationalize the car ownership versus the u- utility of a car.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm. Great. Thanks for speaking with us.
Anthony Foxx Thank you.
Tim Fulton Appreciate it.
Anthony Foxx You got it. No sweat.
Tim Fulton The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit MORPC.org.
Anthony Foxx Thank you very much. Thank you, Mayor, for that rousing introduction. It is always good to be here in Columbus, Ohio. I was told last night over dinner that there was something I had to do at the beginning. We'll see if my advice that I was given was correct. O-H?
Audience Member O!
Anthony Foxx All right. Got that started out. Then I was also told to say, uh, "Go Jackets." Apparently a pretty big, uh, pretty big victory for, uh, for the O Jackets, so congratulations and good luck on the next phase of the playoffs. Uh, it's great to be here. Uh, let me, let me say to William and, and the team here, uh, at MORPC, uh, thank you so much for inviting me to talk to you a little bit today, uh, now that I'm in the private sector, uh, don't have all of the instrumentalities of government at my fingertips, uh, to give you a perspective on where you sit in the context of not just transportation, but the, the over- overall effort that's really been an effort since mankind, uh, was at the beginning to figure out not only how we can move places faster and better, but how we can make the human experience more meaningful, which I think is actually a more important goal than any technology. Um, I wanna start out by telling you a little bit about me. Um, I grew up in Charlotte, North Carolina, uh, and, uh, you know, the home of Michael Jordan, uh, the home of Steph Curry. Sorry, some of you. Although he was born in Cleveland, believe it or not. Um- But 47 years ago, I was born in, in a part of Charlotte, North Carolina, the northwest part of the city, in a little, um, split level, 1900 square feet, that was circumscribed by freeways. When I looked out of the front door, I could see I-77. And if I walked out in the front yard and turned to the right, I could see I-85. And there were fences that more or less locked in my neighborhood. As a child, I didn't understand this as a socioeconomic phenomenon. It was just my neighborhood. But over time, what I started to realize as I went into school and started to see more of what was beyond those walls that I saw when I woke up in the morning, I started to understand that the decisions that were made 50, 40, 30 years earlier were made with the idea that, that the area that I grew up in was an area to go through. But it was not an area to go to. Society had all but said to me as a child, "You don't matter. Your ambitions don't matter." And statistically, if you had said in, on my birthday in 1971, if you had said, "Well, this is gonna be the future transportation secretary, the future mayor of our city," no one would have believed you. And so I stand here to some extent representing those people. I don't care where they live, urban, rural, suburban. I don't care what their race is. But those people who are out there who are hungry, hungry to make a difference in this world and to do something to make their lives meaningful, not only to them and their families, but to society in general. Those people are out there. You can go out to the Long Street Bridge today and you can, you can spend quite a bit of time watching and learning about the history of the King Lincoln neighborhood and the people whose lives were changed by the creation of a freeway, much like your grandparents, William. So the context in which I wanna talk to you today is not so much about all of the great things about technology. It's that the fundamental problem we still face, the fundamental challenge that we still have, is how do we build a future in which everybody is a part of it? How do we build an inclusive future with all of these amazing tools of technology that are available to us? And the simple message, my friends, is that our default systems won't do it. Our old ways of thinking won't do it. And by the way, I love engineers. I said this earlier today. Some of my best friends are engineers. Okay? Let me make this point. But engineers are trained to solve a problem and if the problem isn't defined well enough for them, they will solve it in a narrow fashion. And so for all of us, you know, whether we're building physical structures or whether we're building technologies or doing some mixture of the two, the fundamental challenge of how we all live in the same space, how we see each other as neighbors and friends and, uh, fellow travelers on the path of progress as a, as a country, as a community, as a state, those challenges are still with us. And no one has yet figured out the best way to do that. Now, let me tell you something else. So fast-forward a little bit. I get elected to local government and I... One of the best things mayor, uh, that, that we did every, every third Monday in Charlotte, we had a zoning meeting. And man, if you want a riveting meeting to attend, you go attend a zoning meeting. Oh my goodness. Every, every month. One of these zoning meetings we were making decisions about, you know, should, should we have three residential units to the acre or should we zone for multifamily or where should the density be and so forth. And over time, I started to, to develop an interest in actually going out and looking at these sites. And I went out to one greenfield area once and they, they, they showed me this major mixed-use development they were doing. The developer walked me down where the road would be. We made a left turn and he said, "This is gonna be the grand corridor, and you're gonna have storefronts that are gonna align the streets, and over those storefronts are gonna be live-work units. And then right at the end, there's gonna be, uh, a hotel on this side, and if you turn around and look backwards, there's gonna be a movie theater on that side, and people are gonna stroll through this area." Now, for you planners, you understand what I'm leading up to, but for the rest of you, what I learned and what I understood was that our built environment, even though we think we're making choices all the time to turn left and turn right and go straight and do it, everything, every movement we make, even in this convention center, has been thought about intimately. And we, we may make spontaneous choices to go one way or another, but those choices are shaped by how the built environment is shaped. And that is the key to why I got interested in transportation in the first place because I understood that it was for me, the difference in my life, a lot of it came down to the fact that even incidental, spontaneous interactions with people you don't know connect you to that person and their experiences in ways that, frankly, I think technology is challenging us against doing today. Uh, you can put on your earbuds and walk down the street and walk past 25 people. Uh, we're starting to have a little problem now of people, uh, actually distracted walking. And technology can be a force for good, but it can also be, uh, a force that actually puts us more into the own-- to our own pods of thinking and, and intersecting with other people. So when I went to the US Department of Transportation, I was a little bit like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Uh, a lot of people in Washington who've been there years and years were like, "Who is this guy? What does he know?" And the one thing I knew when I went to Washington was that Washington couldn't solve every problem I faced back in my community. I knew that there was a well store of innovation waiting to happen at the local level, and if the levers of government were maneuvered just right, maybe we could unlock some of that innovation. So my staff came to me, um, maybe a year or two into my tenure and, and they said, "We've got an idea of a technology challenge." And we started talking through it. And from the day we started talking about this challenge, it took us a full year before we announced that we were doing the Smart City Challenge, and a large part of it was because the federal government historically doesn't do challenges that provide an open-ended invitation to local communities to invent the future. It's not what the federal government does. We typically wanted to, you know, we give money out for you to build a road. We wanna come out and look at the road or to buy a transit bus, and we wanna go out and look at the bus. But how many times has your federal government ever said, "We know the solutions are out there. We need to create the laboratory for those solutions to actually come to bear"? That's what we endeavored to do. So we opened up the Smart City Challenge. We had 70-some-odd cities apply. And from my vantage point, the challenge had already done its job in the sense that what we had done is we'd, we'd given local communities an incentive to think outside the lines, to really think about how they could harness technology to solve the problems they faced. And we were deliberate in not being prescriptive. We didn't wanna tell you to buy X number of electric vehicles or X number of autonomous shuttles or what have you. We wanted to lay out broad parameters and let Columbus figure out how Columbus wanted to fit into that or Portland or the other cities the mayor mentioned. So I had an opportunity to meet, uh, Alex Fisher and Mayor Ginther, as they said, and, uh, one of our early conversations, I think the question... I may be misre- misremembering this, Mayor. Uh, but one of the questions was, "Can we really win this thing?" And I said, "Absolutely, you can win it." And as we went through the process, we down-selected to seven cities. Columbus was one of the seven. And we went through another process around that. And let me tell you why Columbus won. You won because you had real conviction about the problems you faced. You had real urgency around using this grant as a way to tackle those challenges. And frankly, for all the work that you all did and all the collaboration to actually win the Smart City Challenge, we knew, and I think you knew, that the real hard work lie ahead. Those hard conversations with communities that have historically been underserved who are now being invited to the table and may not feel quite as eager because of past experience. The push-pull between the various, uh, pieces of the business community and the public trying to figure out how to balance those equities. Ladies and gentlemen, please don't think these challenges are unique to Columbus. Even working through those is creating the progress our country and our world need. There's another thing that I should also mention, and, and, and, uh, the mayor has talked about this. Um, you know, we go to a lot of places. I don't know about you, but, you know, when I'm doing a job interview, uh, with someone and everything they have to say is awesome about themselves, I'm kind of thinking a little skeptically about it. So we go to all these cities and it's like, "Man, we got the best this, we got the best that, we got the best other thing, we got this, that, do, do." And I'm like, "Man, really?" We came to Columbus. You guys, like, you've got a big cheerleading section here, by the way. You've got major, major universities and thought leadership. You've got an incredible auto sector that's got, uh, so much to it. You've got healthcare and insurance and financial services. You're- you've got an amazing story to tell. And by the way, you should never, ever, ever feel bashful about telling that story. Uh, it is, it is an amazing story. Uh, but you're also clear-eyed about your challenges, infant mortality being one of them. And I'll tell you, I've been all around the world. I've been in a lot of places. And 98% of the conversation around smart cities is about technology. And what my fear is, and the reason why this challenge and this grant are so critical, not just to you, but to the world, is because in its, in its criteria, we focused on not just the technology, not people serving the technology, but the technology serving the people. That is a critical element of what you're doing, and it makes your job actually a little harder than it does in the rest of the world. But it is precisely because of that that you will set the pace for how the world views smart cities. Now, uh, let me tell you a few other things that may not be as much fun. Uh, I think that the hard work you're doing, and I know it's hard work. I, I don't wanna overemphasize it, but I think the hard work you're doing is exciting for several reasons. Number one, you are creating a regional... You're actually creating a smart region. So much of what I've heard today is not just about the city of Columbus, but it's about the suburban ring around Columbus and the rural ring around that and, and how you're starting to integrate the thinking around this, uh, this entire region. One of the things that I wanted to do as secretary was to create a, uh, a dig once program. When you're doing a road construction project that you, you put fiber optic cable in some of our rural areas that have historically not had access to, uh, to, to, uh, fiber optic and the high-speed internet, and you're doing that in this region or will be soon. We talked about creating plans that are regionally based. That is critically important. If you've got industries that are all linked together but they fall outside of the city of Columbus or outside of Lime or other parts of this region, it doesn't-- it's not a license for each jurisdiction to kind of come up with its own strategy to try to, try to, uh, capture opportunities. It's an opportunity for the region to figure out how to build on more of all the assets it has, and you're doing that. Look, I'm excited about the autonomous shuttles. Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about, uh, you know, some of the work you're doing on, uh, drone technology. I'm excited about, uh, uh, the, uh, the, uh, DSRC technology that you're, you're, you're investing in and you're seeing happen in the region. But I'm more excited in what is different here than probably anywhere else I've been is the integration of all these different technologies and the unifying vision that sort of runs through them. That is the essence of what a smart city and a smart region should be. Look, in Charlotte, we had five MPOs and RPOs in our region, William. Like a family, sometimes we agreed, sometimes we didn't. It was difficult sometimes. But what I want to say to you is that your gathering today is part of a long march into the future. And every part of this region has to be included in that future. And the way that you guys have already started to build that future together is pointing the way, not only here in America, but really all over the world. So I want to leave you with a little bit of a challenge. I told you about the world I walked into. But sometime, if not today, maybe over this weekend or the next few days, I want every person in this room to close your eyes. And I want you to imagine a young person, any young person, growing up in this region and what kind of future you imagine for that young person. A future where that young person may be safer because of the technologies that you have an opportunity to deploy, which in some corners is estimating 80% reductions in vehicle fatalities and deaths. I want you to imagine a future in which that person may not come from a family where someone's gone off to college or may not even be in a place that's proximate to the best available schools or junior colleges. But there is a way that person can access transportation that's going to connect him or her to that future. I want you to maybe imagine a mom who's working two jobs to take care of her kids and whose trip gets cut in half because of the planning and thought processes that you all are undertaking. We're not and you're not in the business of just trying to build a good future. You are not and we are not in the game here to build a future that repeats the challenges and the problems that we inherited. No, Columbus, you've got a chance to build a better future. You've got a chance to right some of the wrongs and to bring all of Ohio and all of America together and all the world with you. That's a lot of pressure. That's a lot of pressure. But you're the tip of the spear. We picked you because you could handle it. And I look forward to coming back here year after year. By the way, as a transportation secretary, you kind of live a little bit through the things that you did as secretary. And I would often in the cabinet room, we'd be sitting there and I'll close on this. We would sit in the cabinet room and I'd look across the table and the only person who really understood my job other than the president, of course, about as well as I did was Arne Duncan, who was our education secretary. And I used to talk to Arne about this because we had the only two jobs in the cabinet that get defined by what happened, happens over the next 20 years. And so for me, I am, my heart is full being here in Columbus today because I know you all are on the right track. I know you all are struggling with the right things. And it's okay to struggle a little bit here because if you struggle over the right things, you're more likely to get to the right answer. And if you get to the right answer, you create the template for someone else, the next city, the next state. So folks, thank you so much. It's great to be with you. I'm enjoying my time here in Columbus, but mostly I'm enjoying the future you all are building. Thank you.
Tim Fulton Thank you for listening to Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite commuter. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info at theconfluencecast.com. Special thanks this week to Columbus Government Television. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.