Crawford Hoying

Tim Fulton 0:15Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren sat down with Brent Crawford and Bob Hoeing, the principals at real estate and property management organization Crawford Hoeing. They discussed how a chance meeting in the late 1990s led to a partnership that endures still today, how difficult times in their business led to positive momentum, and how to make sure that Columbus is growing in the right way. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview.

Brent Warren 1:55Brent Crawford and Bob Hoeing, thank you for joining me today, and I appreciate you sitting down with us to talk a little bit about development in Columbus.

Brent Crawford 2:02Sure.

Bob Hoying 2:02Thanks for having us.

Brent Warren 2:03Um, well we're here at Bridge Park, which is a pretty amazing story in its own right, um, and I wanna talk about that, but first I wondered if you could just kinda quickly give me the Crawford Hoeing story. How you got started, how you guys met, and how we ended up where we are today as one of the bigger developers in the region.

Brent Crawford 2:21Well, I'm not sure there's a short, super short answer

Brent Warren 2:24Right

Brent Crawford 2:24... to, uh, to our formation, but I'll give you a l- a little background, and it started like a lot of developers do, which is not necessarily in the development business. Um, it was just traditional acquisition of multi-family properties in, in central Ohio, and I was fortunate enough to start the latter years of, of college.

Brent Warren 2:39Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 2:39While, while Bob was still playing football, I was in the process of, of buying property and, and had grown it to, to pretty substantial size in the, in the mid-'90s and, and had a couple thousand units in the campus, uh, area and, and Hilliard as well. And during that timeframe Bob and I, uh, while he was off in the NFL, had, uh, a random chance meeting on a golf course, uh, is how the company actually started, uh, as, as far as Crawford Hoeing as we know it today. And we just, uh, randomly got put together on the golf course one day and had some really good conversations and, uh, sorta hit it off and, and he asked what I did, and I knew what he did- ... uh, at the time and, uh, uh, was interested in our business. He had a little background in it relative to, to real estate and being that his father was in the construction business, and so we talked about, uh, his maybe being, uh, involved in the company. Uh, so he would during the summers come back and visit with us and, uh, really start to learn the business, and in a few years into it, said, "Hey, I think this is something I'm really interested in, in, in being a part of when I, uh, com- you know, finish up in the NFL."

Bob Hoying 3:42Yeah, and I think for me it was, um, it was my second year in the NFL and I was looking for... I was a s- third round draft pick and looking for the next chapter of my life, uh, when football would end because, you know, really, uh, in the NFL it can be over with at any time. And, and so I was looking for that next thing and met Brent, and Brent was really an expert in, in multi-family apartments. He was the one w- one-stop shop. He did everything. He p- put financing on, on the deals, he mowed lawn. He turned units. And so from just being, uh, having that knowledge of, of what, what he was, uh, managing and, and what we were doing, uh, gave me a lot of comfort, and I was able to play a number of years after that. But, uh... So it just felt like a good fit, uh, to me and, and every year I came back, uh, in the off season, was more, became more and more involved in stuff we were doing. And like anything, it just grows from there and we over the years have been lucky to surround ourselves with really, really good people-

Brent Warren 4:43Mm-hmm

Bob Hoying 4:43... that have come over the years to, to join our company.

Brent Crawford 4:47Well, I think like a lot of people that are in the real estate business, uh, even when I had all of my existing properties, I thought about development, but you don't really understand the full, uh, depth of what it takes to be in the real estate, uh, uh, development business. And so while we were gathering and growing significantly and we'd actually gotten up to 8,000 apartments in Columbus that we had purchased over, over a number of years, but still with the thought of building our own, uh, properties. And y- you know, how do you get to that point and, uh, i- is always the tough case because it requires all the, the expertise and disciplines of every part of real estate. You really have to understand every facet for it to make, uh, to make sense and be successful at it. Because of the development, or excuse me, of the, uh, real estate business, it's the most risky piece-

Brent Warren 5:32Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 5:32... is the development piece. So if you don't know what you're doing, it's, uh, very challenging. We were fortunate that his father, uh, owned, uh, was part owner of a company called Bracket Builders.

Brent Warren 5:40Mm.

Brent Crawford 5:40Uh, which, uh, m- Bob and his brother, uh, Tom, and I are, are all owners of today. But it was a great launch for us because beyond the development piece, the construction portion is the most challenging, right?

Brent Warren 5:52Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 5:52And understanding how that works, and so that brought that expertise. And so we were able to start and do our first development I think in what, 2004, 2005 Timeframe and we're, with the idea we wanted to, to ramp that up, but of course, that little hiccup happened in 2008.

Brent Warren 6:06Right.

Brent Crawford 6:06And we really paused at that point and, uh, really were essentially just focused on ensuring that the, the quality of our portfolio remained through the difficult downturns, and it certainly, without question, it was a very challenging period for us, as it was for any real estate company. But out of that, uh, was born the development company and really as we look back at it today, while we don't wanna go through it again, we always say it was the best thing that ever could've happened to us, was those very difficult times. Learned how to run a company-

Brent Warren 6:33Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 6:33... um, operations, things that really mattered. It went from sort of really, uh, top line revenue heavy, uh, to the revenue just literally dissipating in a matter of, of weeks, and, uh, understanding how we have to run a company from there. So, uh, we also then, one critical component, in fact it may be the most critical component as we always say is, we met Nelson Yoder.

Brent Warren 6:53Mm.

Brent Crawford 6:54Uh, Nelson was an architect at M&A Architects and had approached us randomly, uh, about a development on Lane Avenue-

Brent Warren 7:00Mm

Brent Crawford 7:01... which is one of our first and original developments, and, uh, was out on the street trying to find somebody to do, uh, the deal with.

Brent Warren 7:08Wow.

Brent Crawford 7:08And, uh, it was a challenging time because it was 2011, uh, was the initial conversations, and banks weren't lending, people weren't investing in new developments, and, uh, we thought, "Hey, this is... We love the site," and he, you know, approached us, and we ended up agreeing to do the deal together with him. But during that process, we, we realized that he was a genius. Uh, and it didn't take long to understand, wow, this guy has immense talent that I've never seen before, and that still s- is true today. I've never met, uh, anybody like him. So he really helped us launch that business and we needed that expertise. We certainly understood the finance side, had a construction component at that point, uh, understood the operations, the leasing, but how do you really get it from a, from the raw dirt?

Brent Warren 7:47Yeah.

Brent Crawford 7:47And so he, you know, he brought that expertise to us.

Brent Warren 7:50Great.

Bob Hoying 7:51Yeah, and I think, uh, you know, it's, it's one thing to, to sit around your office and say, "Hey, you know, w- I wonder what we could put on that piece of property?"

Brent Warren 7:57Mm-hmm.

Bob Hoying 7:58And, and when Nelson came in-house, to Brent's point, we were able to really walk into his office and say, "Hey, we're, we're thinking about d- doing this deal, and what can we fit here?" And within hours, he'd come back with a sketch-

Brent Warren 8:09Mm-hmm

Bob Hoying 8:09... that made sense, that we could develop into our, you know, take our financial analysis and, and put pro formas together. And so it really was that last sort of missing piece, uh, that allowed us to, to start doing some of the early stuff that, that we did.

Brent Warren 8:24Mm-hmm. Um, I'm interested because we spoke to you guys, I think it was almost exactly three years ago, about Bridge Park.

Brent Crawford 8:33Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 8:33And at that point, I think, I mean you were heavy into the construction phase. I don't think anything had opened yet.

Brent Crawford 8:39Probably not, mm-mm.

Brent Warren 8:40Um, so we were talking all kind of hypothetical how the market looked, how the interest was from people, and here we are.

Brent Crawford 8:45Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 8:46There's, you know, we're surrounded by these tall buildings, and there's restaurants open, and office, offices, and people moved in. And, um, I'm curious just checking at, at this point in the development, how would you say it has gone as you expected, as you were hoping it would three years ago? What, what have been the surprises?

Brent Crawford 9:10I, I think both he and I would agree it's gone better than we probably could've dreamed. I, I, we've always been dreamers. I guess we would say we call ourselves practical dreamers. Uh, a lot of people I think when this originally started, in fact we'll have it happen to us now, especially that it's been successful, people will come up to us, other real estate developers, people in the business, lenders, and say, "We thought you guys were insane when this happened. We said this'll never work. Um, it's gonna take them under. It's a, you know, it's a, it's way too big of a gamble." And, uh, we just felt very strongly, and part of it is all the principals, uh, uh, Bob and I, and then of course Nelson as well, we all live in Dublin. We know Dublin. Our headquarters was here. So we really had a sense of the market and what was missing, and the amount of wealth here, people willing to dine out, uh, the number of, or the amount of office here-

Brent Warren 9:56Mm

Brent Crawford 9:56... uh, most of which was 20 to 30 years old. And so we just had a really strong feeling that it would be successful. And then of course from an apartment and housing perspective, Dublin had not allowed any new apartments for more than 20 years.

Brent Warren 10:09Mm.

Brent Crawford 10:09So there was a big housing gap. And fortunately for us, Dublin was on the same page. They knew that they had to do this to compete for the future, uh, especially from a office perspective. They were losing a lot of office to the downtown or Short North and places that were more vibrant. And so, uh, I think that's been proven out for us. A company like UpDox, for example-

Brent Warren 10:28Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 10:28... a Dublin technology company that's growing quickly, uh, they'll f- tell you for sure without Bridge Park, they wouldn't be in Dublin.

Brent Warren 10:35Right.

Brent Crawford 10:35And there's a lot of businesses there, and some of which we've brought from downtown that left downtown-

Brent Warren 10:40Mm

Brent Crawford 10:40... to come up here. And so it's really, uh, um, exceeded our expectations. We were essentially 100% leased on all office-

Brent Warren 10:46Wow

Brent Crawford 10:46... at this point, which is really incredible. We're pre-leasing for our next office buildings now. Uh, I think we're approaching 90% on the restaurant retail, uh, leasing for the entire development, which is also really amazing. And the apartments we're, uh, surpassing 70% now, which is also strong considering how many units we've brought online.

Brent Warren 11:04Yeah.

Brent Crawford 11:04And then the condos have all, uh, on the first building sold out 100%.

Brent Warren 11:08Wow.

Brent Crawford 11:08We're, we're more than, we're probably 70% on the next phase of our condominiums here. So it's certainly exceeded our expectation. I think the key to it though is you gotta keep going, and it's momentum, and that's what a lot of people don't understand. So when we had originally started and, and included some lenders, uh, people would say, "Why don't you just start with one building-

Brent Warren 11:26Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 11:26... or two buildings?" And, and the reality is that doesn't create any density or any sense of place.

Brent Warren 11:31Yeah.

Brent Crawford 11:31You had to, at some point in life you gotta take a big, you gotta make a big bet, and that's kinda what we said is, "Where, where would we make a big bet? I, I think we'll make a big bet in one of the richest municipalities in the United States, where we have our homes, where our business is, where we know the dynamics in the marketplace. Uh, let's go for it." And I think it's paid off. I think if we'd have just thrown up a couple buildings that we would've never seen the success, and that's why we're gonna continue to, to go-

Brent Warren 11:55Yeah

Brent Crawford 11:55... uh, at this point because we've not seen any abatement in interest. Uh, the market's still allowing for it. The financing market is still allowing for it, and we still, the phone just continues to ring repeatedly. Uh, we receive phone calls every single day. There's not a day that goes by that a commercial tenant doesn't call asking about space that's available.

Bob Hoying 12:13Yeah, and I, I think, um, just beyond the leasing, it's, it's all the other stuff. I think it's when, when concepts have opened here, they, they've done extremely well and, and continue to do extremely well, even better as we're bringing what would be, uh, I guess perceived as more competition has actually added-

Brent Warren 12:31Makes it more of a destination for people.

Bob Hoying 12:33Yeah.

Brent Warren 12:33Yeah.

Bob Hoying 12:33And people are just coming in. Uh, you know, the parking is super convenient here. Um, and so, uh, just the various concepts that have opened up have way exceeded our expectations.

Brent Crawford 12:44And theirs.

Bob Hoying 12:45Yeah, and theirs. And, and, uh, I think you look at the AC Marriott, the, the hotel has done extremely well, you know, and it's, uh, going on its second year of, of being open. So-

Brent Crawford 12:54It was the hotel of the year for Marriott in the United States.

Brent Warren 12:57Wow.

Bob Hoying 12:57Yeah.

Brent Warren 12:57And what's, what's the market at the hotel? Who, who's staying there?

Brent Crawford 13:01It's the business traveler-

Brent Warren 13:02Uh-huh

Brent Crawford 13:03... is, is, you know, we're running typically 85 to 90% throughout the week occupancy-wise with, with increasing average daily rates. And then where we've done well too is it is we have created a destination. So it's not unusual, people do staycations. We hear it all the time. They might live in Dublin. They just might live up in Wedgwood or somewhere north of here, and they come down and stay on the weekend, and they might bar hop, restaurant hop. Uh, with what we've already have open, what's existing in Old Dublin and what's coming, there'll be 25-plus restaurants and bars they can walk to in five minutes. So-

Brent Warren 13:34Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 13:34... uh, uh, we're getting a great weekend. A lot of weddings.

Bob Hoying 13:36Yeah, I think, uh, just looking at this past year, it's the, um, it's the activities and events that have happened here that we didn't anticipate three years ago. You know, we were expanding For Fest, which is a partnership with Memorial Tournament this year, to three nights. Um, it's the farmers market that we launched this past year, was very successful-

Brent Crawford 13:54Mm

Bob Hoying 13:54... on Saturday mornings, uh, and it's led to o- other opportunities. Now tenants are, are doing, uh, planning activities, um, on their own. And so I think for us to, to three years ago to look, look ahead and say all, all of this stuff is gonna happen, uh, it's way exceeded our expectations.

Brent Crawford 14:11Yeah. And I think it's, it's exceeded our expectations from a numerical perspective, just the leasing, the occupancy, the rents that we're achieving. We're really getting top of market rents-

Brent Warren 14:19Mm

Brent Crawford 14:19... in most every area, short of maybe out- outside the Short North, and so we couldn't be more proud of that. But I, I would say if you... The thing we're most proud of is when we walk out of here, maybe not today in a zero degree day, but just about any other day, if you... W- we walk, leave our office at whatever time it may be, and you step onto the street, that is what we're most proud of, is just the energy and the feeling. I, we were-

Brent Warren 14:39Yeah, there's people out there.

Brent Crawford 14:41There are people out there.

Brent Warren 14:42Yeah, yeah.

Brent Crawford 14:42And we were, my wife and I were having dinner just a few weeks ago. It was on a decent day, and it was only in the 30s, but, uh, we were sitting in the restaurant, and I looked at her and I said, "Look outside right now." There were, I mean, dozens of people sort of at each corner passing by, in and out of restaurants, people having a f- a fantastic time. We left and walked down to Penn's Mechanical and just were blown away. I mean, the energy of people and, and the happiness and... So with each new thing that we add from that, what you were pointing to is that, is the destination piece of it is what's been most exciting for us because w- if you go back three years prior to Bridge Park and said, and asked somebody from Hilliard, "How often do you go to Dublin for dinner?" Never. Marysville, Worthington, you go on and on. It was almost nonexistent. In fact, uh, I believe the stat was roughly 80% of all the dining dollars of Dublin residents were not spent in Dublin-

Brent Warren 15:32Mm

Brent Crawford 15:32... prior to Bridge Park. And I would love to know what that stat is, uh, today because now we're in a scenario where I talk to people and they don't ever leave Dublin.

Brent Warren 15:40Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 15:40Uh, which is, you could say is good and bad. But they love it here, right? It's, um, it's, we've created a spot, but we're bringing in people. Uh, and we know this just gen- from receipts and, and even at the AC, you know, getting data that we're bringing in lots of people from other markets a- around here coming to see. And I think that's gonna grow significantly with some of the additions we have coming.

Brent Warren 15:59Mm-hmm. Um, when we spoke three years ago, I know you were speaking about the, uh, the strong interest from the empty nester category-

Brent Crawford 16:09Mm

Brent Warren 16:09... and how many people were already ringing you guys up and saying, "We wanna live here."

Brent Crawford 16:14Yep.

Brent Warren 16:14And you hadn't yet seen at that point the young professional side of it come up, and I'm curious where, where that's at now.

Brent Crawford 16:21It has happened.

Brent Warren 16:22Yeah.

Brent Crawford 16:22It has happened, and we kind of anticipated it would. They're a little slower in terms of the prepara- you know, the planning.

Brent Warren 16:27They don't plan ahead quite as much. Yeah.

Brent Crawford 16:29They don't plan ahead, right? Yeah. So we still are st- having phenomenal empty nester interest. That's, that's almost... It is still surprising how many are moving in on a regular basis, but we have seen the average age continue to come down-

Brent Warren 16:39Mm

Brent Crawford 16:40... especially now that some of the destination places. And, and, uh, no question Penn's Mechanical, 16 Bit, places like that.

Bob Hoying 16:47And we've, we've leased about 140,000 square feet of office.

Brent Crawford 16:50Yeah.

Bob Hoying 16:50So that's obviously helping.

Brent Warren 16:52So there's people who work here and live here.

Bob Hoying 16:54Oh, yeah.

Brent Crawford 16:54Oh, lots of people, and including in our company. It's so fun to see-

Brent Warren 16:56Yeah

Brent Crawford 16:57... uh, in our office here, the people, they just l- come out of their apartment, walk right down the street and, and into the office and then walk out to the restaurants. It's... And it'll be obviously the same for me once the pedestrian bridge is done. And, uh, from a lifestyle perspective, uh, I think they just absolutely love that. Uh-

Brent Warren 17:11Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 17:11... and I know UpDox has a number of their employees also live here as well.

Brent Warren 17:15Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 17:15And some of them in the same building, so they just take the elevator straight up.

Brent Warren 17:19Um, we've been talking a lot just in general in Columbus, I feel like there's a lot of discussion about, uh, the continued growth of the region and how we're gonna grow by, you know, more or less a million people in the next-

Brent Crawford 17:31Mm

Brent Warren 17:31... uh, couple decades. Um, and the big question is can we grow in the right way to accommodate all that growth? And, you know, if we continue to just sprawl out, then it's gonna be really hard to do that.

Brent Crawford 17:43Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 17:43Um, Bridge Park is an example of where you've put in more density than, in one place than maybe anybody else-

Brent Crawford 17:49Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 17:49... in recent years. Do you see this as... I mean, obviously you're not done with Bridge Park, so there's more to come. But do you see this as something that can be repeated within the Columbus region? I mean, are y- you guys have plans to do more of this. Do you thi- do you hear from other developers? Are they gonna be doing more of this kind of thing?

Bob Hoying 18:08Yeah, we do. I mean, I think, uh, for us, we tell people all the time this thing, um, it's not changing anytime soon. It may slow down if interest rates go up. Um, but, but, but people going back to the cores, whether that's the core of Dublin or the core of Columbus, Clintonville, it's happening.

Brent Warren 18:24Mm-hmm.

Bob Hoying 18:24I mean, we see it all the time, and it's not gonna change. Um, and so from that p- Perspective, I think we, we feel very lucky that, that we've done these types of developments, you know, going back to 2010, '11 with our first down in Upper Arlington. So we have new projects that we're working on down in Upper Arlington. Um, a, a couple we haven't announced yet. We- we've got a very large project over in the Dayton area that's a downtown revitalization of, of, of an area around Fifth Third Field. So I think for us, we- we're, we're, we think we're very lucky that we're... This is kind of what we've gotten good at. We pl- made plenty of mistakes, and we've improved over the years, but nothing that's drastic. And you always learn at, at what you're doing, so we've been able to apply those to the next project, the next phase. I mean, there's certain information we were able to get from the first two phases of Bridge Park that we're applying now to the phase that we just started. So, um, that's exciting. That's very exciting for us.

Brent Crawford 19:19And I think the other piece to this too is people often say to us, "This trend or this fad, this, this'll end, and we'll go back to something else." And my response always is that everything else that happened previously was a fad. Uh, if you really go back to, say, from the 1920s to the 1990s and that sort of urban sprawl-

Bob Hoying 19:38Mm

Brent Crawford 19:38... that was the difference.

Bob Hoying 19:39Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 19:40Um, every other piece of history essentially was infill, um, dense, uh, development.

Brent Warren 19:47Walkable development.

Brent Crawford 19:48Yeah-

Bob Hoying 19:48Yeah

Brent Crawford 19:48... walkable development.

Bob Hoying 19:49Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 19:49So I always ask people to ask themselves, when the market collapsed, what were the areas that w- that suffered the most, right? It was wherever there was urban sprawl is what suffered the most. Where values didn't really go down if... would be Boston-

Bob Hoying 20:02Mm

Brent Crawford 20:02... New York, place that were built on the urban principles that are essentially in Europe. And why for me, I love to go to Europe because there's no better feel than walking through European cities for that specific reason. So all-

Brent Warren 20:12Well, even here in Columbus, like Grandview-

Brent Crawford 20:15Right

Brent Warren 20:15... you didn't see the home-

Bob Hoying 20:16Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 20:16... home prices go down-

Brent Crawford 20:17Upper Arlington

Brent Warren 20:18... that much at all. Yeah.

Brent Crawford 20:18Yep, there's a lot of places where they didn't go down, and it's very easy to see which ones and why they didn't.

Brent Warren 20:22Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 20:22So we're just simply going back to what worked in every other part of history e- e- except for, you know, we failed from the 19, say, really not even the '20s, really from the '40s-

Brent Warren 20:31Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 20:32... '50s post-war, uh, through the 1990s. So we just think we're, we're going what was successful for hundreds of years.

Brent Warren 20:39Um, I'm interested to hear, um, 'cause you guys have that Upper Arlington project. You also did that Worthington project, right?

Brent Crawford 20:45Yes, yes.

Brent Warren 20:45That was pretty early on.

Brent Crawford 20:46It was early on.

Brent Warren 20:47And these are two communities where we've seen some resistance from residents-

Brent Crawford 20:52Mm

Brent Warren 20:52... to apartments coming in, and I'm interested to hear your take on how you were able to do that. How did you work with the neighbors?

Brent Crawford 21:01Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 21:01Um, and do you think that's a challenge moving forward for some of these places?

Brent Crawford 21:05I think it is for some people. Uh, you know, Bob can step in too, but I think one of the things that's made us very successful is we, uh, address things right up front. So we immediately with- meet with neighbors. Uh, we immediately meet with council members, anybody who's involved, and really lay it out because I think for what happens is it's, uh, just a matter of fear and a level of fear of the unknown, so if you can help eliminate some of the own- unknown right from the get-go. So I think one of the mistakes that people make is they prepare an entire development, and they launch it out as if it's ready to be built without ever having talked to any stakeholders in the area. So we try to avoid that issue. It happened on our Lane Avenue, newest Lane Avenue development. We, we had to step in a little bit later in the game because, you know, originally the, the previous owner was having some difficulty getting it through.

Brent Warren 21:52Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 21:53And it was, a lot of it was just communication. Uh, it wasn't really being... The plan wasn't being communicated probably as well as it could've been, and we stepped in and then really turned what was a referendum scenario-

Brent Warren 22:04Yeah

Brent Crawford 22:04... uh, in a matter of months to them dropping the referendum and being in full support of it.

Brent Warren 22:08Mm.

Brent Crawford 22:08And it was really because we just, uh, educated them on the process. And, and it happened in Worthington as well, so city council. And I think generally people think when you're building new apartments, uh, kids right away, kids ruining schools, kids filling up the schools. They can't handle it, and w- we've pretty much shown that that's not what these developments necessarily are. Uh, and, you know, it's happened in Lane Avenue, and so we have lots of data now. And, and other people use our data and vice versa to say, "Okay, in this, all of our apartments here, we have four school-aged kids."

Brent Warren 22:37Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 22:38"And of those, three of those were already in the district. The parents are divorced, or they temporary housing and so forth." So, uh, I think it's, communication's a huge key-

Brent Warren 22:46Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 22:46... uh, to getting these, uh, approved.

Bob Hoying 22:49Yeah, and I think we're willing to, you know, make some concessions. If height's an issue, you know, we'll step down architecture as it, as it, you know, maybe meets, you know, single-family homes. And, and we'll, we'll work on landscape buffering like we did in Worthington, uh, with, um, a development or a, a neighborhood that was, uh, to our south. So I think we're willing to, to, to work with... And we're not the only developers that do that. There are other really good ones that, that, that will get in early and meet with, with the neighbors. So, um, yeah, I think that's been, that's been the key for us is, is really just being open and upfront.

Brent Warren 23:24What do you say? 'Cause one of the things I hear a lot is, um, "Oh, we don't want apartments." That's... Well, one of the things is people say, "Oh, that's a transient population." And then the other thing is they say, "That's gonna bring my property values down."

Brent Crawford 23:38I would say it's the complete opposite, and I think there's a lot of factual, uh, data that would support that. And an example, when, when we were originally talking about Bridge Park, and we would-

Brent Warren 23:46Mm

Brent Crawford 23:46... had some of the same feedback, and we did community meetings. We would do meetings with entire neighborhood associations. So some of the largest in Dublin we met with right away because if you don't get a handle on it very quickly, it will s- it will spin out of control.

Brent Warren 23:59Yeah.

Brent Crawford 23:59So we wanted to make sure that we met with them initially. And so the thought process is that D- Dublin, for example, without having a lot of apartments, you, you don't have an incubator in order to bring residents in here permanently. And so, uh, thinking of homes like, for example, in Muirfield, who's gonna be the future buyer of those homes? Especially as people are transitioning into urban infill, you have to-

Bob Hoying 24:20Retiring and moving south

Brent Crawford 24:21... Yeah. We're t- They're, they, as that group ages and they move out, who's gonna be the next buyer? And it's the reason you've seen in places like that the values, while the market has rebounded- Not so much in, in neighborhoods like that where you just literally have hundreds and hundreds of homes. There aren't enough buyers coming through, but one way you can help to protect that is by having people living here, uh, whether it be their first apartment, second apartment, whatever it may be, young professionals living in the area so that they experience and say, "Well, we love Dublin. We don't wanna leave Dublin, and we are eventually gonna have kids, and we're gonna buy a house, and we're gonna stay in Dublin." It's very unlikely that if they never experienced Dublin, let's say they lived in the Short North the entire time, that suddenly they're gonna make the leap to go to a market they've really never been to. And so, uh, we've seen it around here. Part of it's because it's, it's from the attraction perspective, but property values without question have significantly risen within, uh, anybody close to Bridge Park. Uh, values have gone up significantly, and we did hear that right away. People were saying, "This is gonna destroy our property values," and we tried to tell them and give them examples of Upper Arlington. For example, the closest properties to Lane Avenue went up in value. Certainly, if you go to the Short North, one block off High Street are the highest values. The further you get away from it, they actually drop.

Bob Hoying 25:33Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 25:33So, uh, I, so I think we've, we've established that well now and, but that does go back to you gotta really right out of the gate go meet with the group. So we were meeting with groups of 50 to 100 or more at a time, and that completely changed the tide. We could start a meeting in which it was a little bit contentious potentially, and by the end of it just have 100% full support. And then they're out there on our behalf telling what the actual facts are instead of allowing people to sort of make up their own narrative.

Bob Hoying 26:00And I think the other thing to point out is, you know, before these types of developments were, were built, people from Dublin really didn't have that many options. If they wanted to downsize and live in a condo, walkable, they had to go downtown Columbus. Um, and maybe they wanted to, but there was nothing to, to, uh, have an option up here locally. And a lot of them moved to Dublin early in their adult life. They wanted to retire, live here forever. Um, and so now they have, now they have that option to stay local and, and see their kids if their kids live in Dublin. So that's been good to see.

Brent Crawford 26:35And we've got a lot of examples of, very specific examples of that. I wish I could give you exact names, but of, of people that are, um, high salaried people in Dublin that were, were gonna move downtown because Dublin did not have the housing type that they were looking for, whether it be in the condominiums or even in the apartments. So they just said, "Hey, we're gonna, uh, we want that lifestyle," and they were gonna leave. And now one was in a contract, you know, ended up getting out of it and ended up buying a condo here because it provided what they were exactly looking for. So you're keeping a lot of the wealth in Dublin that was really just said they were to the point where that people, they want... A lot of them want the same lifestyle that they have in Florida in their second home. A lot of them have that winter home where they are within walking distance of everything, and this, this provides really that second, second lifestyle that they're looking for.

Bob Hoying 27:22Hm.

Tim Fulton 27:27Once again, the Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth for the region. For more information, please visit MORPC.org. You mentioned the, how you sort of weathered the recession at a key, key point in the development of your company. Um, what do you see on the horizon in terms of, uh, the market in central Ohio? I mean, I've heard some concern about construction cost and labor cost-

Brent Crawford 28:20Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 28:20... and, uh, just the economy in general. Are you optimistic, or are you a little concerned when you look to the, the next five years or so?

Bob Hoying 28:28I mean, our biggest challenge right now is, and, and Brent would agree, is, is our pricing from subcontractors. You know, uh, finding great quality subcontractor labor because everybody's really busy. Now, I think it's slowed down a little bit, at least it feels that way to us. Um, but I know for us, we've always just cons- concentrated on having great, great sites, great real estate, you know. So if it does slow down a little bit, it might, it might slow down, but we're still developing in really good spots around Columbus and central Ohio and other, other markets we're looking at now.

Tim Fulton 28:58Mm-hmm.

Bob Hoying 28:58So, um, who knows about the future, you know, a year from now? Uh, I think for us, we're concentrating on, on having really good sites to develop projects in.

Tim Fulton 29:06Mm-hmm.

Bob Hoying 29:07And, and really developing and delivering stuff people want in their community, you know? And-

Brent Crawford 29:11And I do think we're fortunate here in, in Dublin, or excuse me, in Columbus versus the rest of the market. So we have friends that are in Cleveland and Cincinnati, and they're... It's, you know, it's a different feel there, right? So they're, they're trying to develop in a declining population scenario, a lot of them coming to Columbus. So as you know, and you guys have documented well, there's, we're not building enough housing now-

Tim Fulton 29:32Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 29:32... to, to satisfy what's coming. And so we still think there's room to run, especially in Columbus. Of course, there'll be a slowdown. Developers are notorious for, uh, overbuilding. And, and part of that is, is because it's, it's a lagging indicator in the sense that we've already signed our contracts. We've started our development. It may take us from, you know, uh, especially something like Bridge Park that's so big, but even just a traditional development, 18, 24 months. Well, if the market's already turned, you can't stop. You're already building. And so, uh, there's always a lag period where, okay, we've overbuilt. We're gonna have to stop for a second and let it, let it catch up. I do think we've still got a, we've still got a run left in us. Uh, very, very specifically for us, because we do believe everybody thinks their sites are great, uh, as long as you pick really, really good sites, when things turn down, it's no different. When, when the collapse happened in our 8,000 apartments, for example, the ones that were really w- well-located were just fine.

Tim Fulton 30:28Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 30:28They still maintained occupancy. So we're really laser focused on trying to have, uh, one of a couple things, either just absolutely fantastic sites or fantastic partnerships. And we always reference, so for example, our Dayton development has just been an incredible home run for us. But part of that is we do love the site, but if somebody would've said five years ago, "Downtown Dayton," and the same thing, people said, "You guys are insane." But what they didn't really know is the, the partnership that we had done with the city of Dayton.

Tim Fulton 30:55Hm.

Brent Crawford 30:55And that's what's really propelled that, and we, we're, we can't- Buy enough property down there.

Brent Warren 31:01That, I was gonna ask about Dayton because you mentioned Cleveland and Cincinnati as losing population-

Brent Crawford 31:06Yeah

Brent Warren 31:06... and these other Ohio cities, a lot of them are in, in that boat. And I think Dayton's probably in that boat too, right?

Brent Crawford 31:12It probably is. I think they've stabilized. I think a little bit different scenario in Dayton in that Cleveland and Cincinnati have rebounded some.

Brent Warren 31:19Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 31:19Certainly, if you've been up to Cleveland-

Brent Warren 31:20Oh, yeah

Brent Crawford 31:21... I mean, I love to go up there. It's really actually a fantastic city, and they've, uh, done great things. They're losing population, uh, still. Dayton, I think, has stabilized a little bit, and if I'm not wrong, I believe Dayton led, um, Ohio last year in job, job growth percentage. Um, so they, they're, they had a lower bar. They were in the first... They're, you know, as we referenced, we actually had a meeting with the mayor a couple days ago. I s- still think they're in the second inning or third inning of what's capable, uh, down there. And so we're very proud of that development because we were, we're, we're the first ones to do of any, any significant development down there. Uh, but we just felt like with the deal that we had with the city and their partnership and involvement in it would be successful. And amazingly, as we always reference, the first 218 apartments we built there were essentially 100% leased at certificate of occupancy. I've really never heard of that-

Brent Warren 32:10Wow.

Brent Crawford 32:11... before. So then within a week or so of, of opening, virtually it was 100% occupied. We did the next 54, same thing. Certificate of occupancy, fully leased. Another 132, fully leased just a couple weeks after closing. We did a 50,000 square foot office building. N- no new office in 20-plus years in downtown Dayton. 100% leased when we f- opened.

Brent Warren 32:30Wow.

Brent Crawford 32:31Uh, and we just-

Brent Warren 32:31Do you, are you looking at other markets in Ohio? Or-

Brent Crawford 32:34We are.

Brent Warren 32:35Yeah, yeah.

Bob Hoying 32:36Yeah.

Brent Crawford 32:36We are.

Brent Warren 32:36You think there's some potential?

Brent Crawford 32:38We do, but I would say this. We're, we get pitched sites daily pretty much.

Brent Warren 32:44Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 32:44Um, but we're being very particular. Uh, five years ago, we always sort of joke, you could throw a dart at the board and make money. It didn't really matter where you were, and part of that was because where construction prices were. Construction prices now over the last three years probably are up 30-plus percent. Uh, so you basically compress the, the ability to make money at this point. So now we have to be very particular about what we're, uh, what we're purchasing. One thing that'll help the run continue, and we watch it very, very closely, is, is interest rates. Interest rates are coming down, not going up. Uh, the Fed may have raised rates, but that's irrelevant relative generally to what we do, which we're really focused on what are the long-term, what's the 10-year Treasury trading at, and it's almost hit a new low, uh, here again today, and it's probably n- I think everybody's called in the high, uh, here. We, we may not see those highs again for years.

Brent Warren 33:34Mm.

Brent Crawford 33:34And with that being the case, that really pushes it out because we were looking at a scenario if a 10-year f- or 10-year fixed rate was at 6%, that makes it really tough, which historically is an extremely low rate, but with these construction costs doesn't really work. Well, now we're in the fours, and so that, that makes a big difference.

Bob Hoying 33:51I think, uh, for us, we've been, um, lucky to have some, some really good projects to work on and put on a resume so people that do come to Bridge Park, other cities from around Columbus, uh, or around Columbus in the state of Ohio, when they come here, they see it, and they, they go back, and they want their version of what Bridge Park could be for their community. And so, uh, w- we've been, uh, you know, blessed with those types of opportunities, and some we have not announced yet, and we're working on now that we're really excited about.

Brent Crawford 34:19Have some really, really big ones that I think'll, are game-changing for Columbus.

Brent Warren 34:24Oh, wow. Uh, we've talked a lot about Dublin, um, but you guys also are downtown. You're in the Short North.

Brent Crawford 34:31Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 34:31Um, I'm curious what, what are the different... I mean, I'm sure that building in downtown or the Short North comes with different challenges-

Brent Crawford 34:39Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 34:39... than building in Dublin. Uh, what are the main, main ones that you've run into?

Brent Crawford 34:45Well, site challenges are the biggest one, just the, the ability to build. So for example, the 800 North High, uh, where the Moxy Hotel and office retail restaurant is gonna be, that's obviously a very small site. I think it's only .56 acres, and we've packed a whole bunch on there. So just the ability to build on the site is a real cha- challenge. There's no, uh, as we call it, lay down space, whereas here we have that. Um, we'll run out of it as we keep building.

Brent Warren 35:07Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 35:08Uh, but that's probably the biggest challenge that we have to deal with. Um, Columbus is, is, is supportive of development, and so they're helpful. It's not, you know, a huge challenge, uh, to get work done down there. Uh, we've had, while we haven't announced yet, we've had phenomenal success on, on the leasing down there that we'll have, be able to report here very shortly, and we're excited about that. And we're still looking down there. We're gonna have another big announcement for downtown-

Brent Warren 35:31Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 35:32... coming here over the next, uh, probably 60, 90 days that we are beyond excited about. So we're still looking down there as well, but again, it's just, uh, you know, if we get a dozen deals now, we might do one, might even be less percentage than that.

Brent Warren 35:46Mm.

Brent Crawford 35:46So you just gotta be very particular about what you're doing. I do worry for some developers, uh, and some, I think there's certain parts of the market, th- the garden style apartment, you know, along the outer belt, there's still a lot of those being developed, and those I would have concern. It's not of interest to us. Um, and I could be wrong. They may look at us and say, "Oh, I think they're doing too mixed u- too much mixed use development." But, um, our, our feeling is this trend is gonna continue, and in- and including downtown. I, we're hopeful that while the Short North has really exploded and has been fantastic, that the down- real downtown continues. And I think with what's coming and some of the couple of things we're working on, there's really gonna be just a next jump up.

Bob Hoying 36:25And I think for us, I mean, we- we're headquartered in Dublin, and I think, uh, we maybe get labeled that we're just Dublin focused, but we're Columbus guys. We both went to Ohio State. We're doing, we've done stuff in Upper Arlington, Worthington, around town. So I think just the region in general, um, we love it so much. That's why we, I came back after I was done playing and, and settled here, uh, for, for everything that we have here. So, uh, we'll, we'll just continue to, to keep looking for those great opportunities here locally.

Brent Warren 36:52Mm-hmm. Another issue that's been talked about a lot recently in Columbus is affordable housing and how to Get more of that into the market to sort of balance what we're seeing as a lot of, uh, the inequality of the housing opportunities. Um, I'm curious to hear your thoughts about that. I mean, I, you guys aren't affordable housing developers, but, um, is there a way to work that into any of your future developments? Do you see that as being a, a possibility?

Bob Hoying 37:22We, we, we, we have a little bit within some of our developments and, uh, and how we've done it is just deliver smaller units.

Brent Warren 37:28Yeah.

Bob Hoying 37:28You know? So it's all about the price point for people to get in and live somewhere, and it's still a really nice unit, but it might be an efficiency or a studio, and they gotta be under $1,000 a month or 850 in rent, you know? And so we're really trying to push that. But it is a challenge, uh, very challenging, um, because land is expensive, and if there's not some subsidy or some way to write down, uh, those rents, uh, it will continue to be a challenge for-

Brent Warren 37:54Yeah

Bob Hoying 37:54... for most developers.

Brent Crawford 37:55And I think most people, and even if you go on Columbus Underground, and you read the comments after stories about developers, and you, you sort of hear the greedy developer- ... scenario, and why aren't they building? And it, it's not a matter of that, that a developer's not doing it 'cause they don't wanna make a ton of money. It's that, uh, that it's not even remotely feasible. It just, on a true market perspective, you could never get any investment. You could not get financing. It just is li- a literal impossibility to do, just as a market rate, uh, essential deal. So it takes partnership from everybody, and I can tell you, we are very passionate about it. We've, we've met with the mayor's office.

Brent Warren 38:29Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 38:29Um, w- we wanna contribute. We wanna be part of the solution, but it's gonna take a comprehensive plan where everybody's giving something, and we're certainly willing to do that. Uh, but I think there, there are things in the works for Columbus that I think, uh, can work, and it's gonna have to be a national, um, theme in the sense of it's, it's not gonna solve itself. Government absolutely has to play a part in it, and there's just no other way around it.

Brent Warren 38:54Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 38:54Uh, like I said, I can... We have a lot of developer friends, and everybody wants to be part of the solution, but somebody has to be able to put forward a path to say, "We can do this deal, at the very least not lose an absolute fortune."

Brent Warren 39:06Right.

Brent Crawford 39:07And that's what it is. It's not about trying to make a bunch of money. It's just trying... You can't do it and lose 50% of your money the moment you build it.

Brent Warren 39:13Right.

Brent Crawford 39:14It's not feasible.

Brent Warren 39:15It seems like there is, uh, the will there or at least the talk about it in, on the Columbus side.

Brent Crawford 39:21Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 39:21But what about, like, on the Dublin side or Worthington side? I mean, you have a lot of workers here probably working in the restaurants-

Brent Crawford 39:31Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 39:31... that aren't gonna be able to afford to live in these apartments.

Brent Crawford 39:33Yeah. A little bit to Bob's message, I mean, that, that's why we tried to have the smaller units. That doesn't address everything, right? So if, if somebody works in the bars and restaurants, and they're a family of four, they can't live in, in a studio-

Brent Warren 39:43Right

Brent Crawford 39:43... apartment. So it, it's a real challenge, and we've had it here. If somebody asks, "What is the, one of the biggest challenges you've had with Bridge Park?" And not necessarily us specifically, but the people that have, uh, that open businesses here is find employment. So the restaurants, we've had restaurants having to delay openings by a week or two because they couldn't get enough workers-

Brent Warren 40:01Mm-hmm

Brent Crawford 40:01... to come. And these are r- these are nice restaurants paying very nice wages, but they're trying to attract people from different parts of town. And f- transportation, of course, plays a big role in that, and if they gotta drive 20 minutes, and maybe they don't have a car. And so how do you, how do you have them live here, uh, or live nearby so that they can fill the jobs? And, and that's a challenge that we don't have an, uh, uh, uh, we don't have an answer to right now is this transportation plays an enormous part of it. I think Dublin has an interest in it. They understand it's very important, but where does all the, where does all the money come from in order to, to make it happen? It's, um, it's a question that needs to be answered, and I don't think... I think everyone's trying.

Brent Warren 40:38Mm-hmm.

Brent Crawford 40:38No one's found the solution yet.

Brent Warren 40:40Yeah. Well, thank you for, for that answer and for all your answers. It was really interesting conversation. I appreciate it.

Brent Crawford 40:46Thank you.

Bob Hoying 40:47Great. Thank you.

Brent Crawford 40:47Thanks. Appreciate it. Thanks.

Tim Fulton 41:01Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information about what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite developer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.