Council President Shannon Hardin

Tim Fulton 00:12Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week: as a growing city, we have growing city problems. No one knows that better than Columbus City Council President Shannon Hardin. With the influx of new residents and new jobs, President Hardin discusses transit as an equity issue, the importance of continuing conversations around race and policing, why we have to do big things now, and the big changes coming to how City Council will be elected starting next year. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive Central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here virtually with Columbus City Council President Shannon Hardin. President Hardin, how are you, sir?

Shannon Hardin 02:01I'm good, my friend. How are you? Thank you for having me.

Tim Fulton 02:04Absolutely, absolutely. And my apologies if I fade back and forth between President Hardin and Shannon, if that's okay with you.

Shannon Hardin 02:13I do it every day. I fade back and forth between the two.

Tim Fulton 02:16Please know that the difference is certainly there. So for those that aren't familiar with you, give us sort of your backstory. Grew up in Columbus, and then how'd you get to council?

Shannon Hardin 02:30Sure. So I was born and raised here in the city of Columbus. The South Side, really, is where I spent most of the —

Tim Fulton 02:41Around most of your days.

Shannon Hardin 02:44You know, that's — I probably spent the most impactful times of my life, from, say, 10 through going to college. My mom still lives in the South Side, and so I'm still down there. I do the caveat that when I was first born, my mom and dad, we owned a horse farm in Delaware, Ohio. And so that's where I really got started. And my dad raised American quarter horses in, after my parents got divorced, Maysville, Kentucky. So I had this really crazy upbringing, where I would be in the country during the weekends, and I'd be in the urban city during the week. And so it's given me a great perspective. But I grew up on the south side of Columbus. I went to Columbus City Schools — first Fairwood Elementary, then to the Columbus Africentric school, and then went to Columbus Alternative High School, named —

Tim Fulton 03:41Cosmonaut.

Shannon Hardin 03:43Yes, yes, yeah, that's why we get along so well. We are cosmic scholars. So, yeah, I graduated from college in 2005. And it was at CAHS that I started my — I'm sure when you were there, certainly when I was there, we had an internship requirement. And every Wednesday, we had to pick a location, a place for the year, where we would intern. And I chose the Mayor's Action Center. Now, in choosing the Mayor's Action Center — it was certainly not foreign to me. The mayor's office, City Hall, was not foreign to me. My mother was the front desk clerk at Columbus City Council when I was born, and worked her entire career here in this building at City Hall until she retired, for 30 years or so, in 2014. And so I was certainly aware and around this building all through growing up. That certainly had an impact. I often say that you can't be what you don't see, and the proximity that my mom provided — even though she was a clerk, she answered the phones at City Hall — she worked really hard, and brought us to work every Take Your Child to Work Day. And I kind of took to it. And so, in high school, I started interning in the Mayor's Action Center, which is the precursor to the 311 Call Center. And I really say that that is, like, my hook. It's the thing that got me and keeps me in public service today, especially on the local level. And everyone knows now the 311 Call Center — you call in with your issues. Back in the day, it was just a couple of ladies, run by this little white lady from Harrison. Her name was Mary Funk, still the very best community engagement, community ambassador, and ombudsman that I've ever met. She is the pinnacle, in my opinion, of public service, and the type of public servant that I would want to be and aspire to be. So she was a great mentor to me for many years, as just a community person working at City Hall. But the thing that I love so much about the job and the internship was that somebody would call in, they would have an issue — maybe the snowplow didn't come through their street, or maybe even the refuse department skipped their house and didn't pick up their trash. And you would get this call from somebody who would call you pretty pissed about this issue. In some people's view, it's a mundane issue; to some folks, it's certainly — the person that's making the call, it's a big deal, it's an interruption. And to be able to answer the phone, to take the complaint, to then click over, call the department and say, "Hey, could you send another truck out there, we messed up, we, the city, messed up, this resident needs — you send this out there and fix this issue," to be able to then click back over and tell the resident, "Hey, if you're home in the next, you know, three hours, we will have somebody out there," and in a small but in a very significant way, really shake how this person, these individuals, saw their government. Because what I learned in that internship was that a lot of folks were making that call not really expecting government to respond quickly, or expecting to be taken seriously, or expecting their trash to matter. But in the span of five minutes, and making that connection, I was able to reaffirm in some small way, but again in a big way, folks' belief in their government — that this was for them, and that it was a service that they were owed, and that we could provide to them. That has been the thing that has kept me — gave me the hook that I love about public service, specifically local government. I always say I would never run for office outside of local government. Because it's that proximity — those are our neighbors calling. So I did that for several years all through high school. During college — I came back — I went to Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Very significant to me as a historically black college and university, where Dr. King and many others came out of. But coming back during the summer, I interned in different departments around the city. I worked in the Public Utilities Department, and was a fiscal agent working on a lot of different projects coming through. And again, just that learning and understanding city government, the impacts that it has, big and small — that job, I never got to talk to residents much, and no one ever saw me, but I knew that I was part of a bigger thing. And so Mayor Coleman, former Mayor Coleman, had heard about me — obviously seen me growing up in City Hall coming to Take Your Child to Work Day, knew all the internships that I had within the city — and so when I was in college at Morehouse, he offered me a job. He said, "When you come out of college, come back up and I will hire you." I thought he was talking shit. I thought he was just being a politician. But true to his word, he offered me a job in his office, in the mayor's office, upon graduation. So I graduated in the fall of 2009 and started working for the city of Columbus in 2010, full-time for Mayor Coleman. Did that for four years. Loved the job. Rose to a Community Affairs Coordinator and manager of the mayor's external community affairs. We first met, Tim, when I was in that role. And I remember, one of the roles that I had working for the mayor was his liaison to the U.S. Conference of Mayors, which meant we flew around the country going to these conferences. And on a flight home one time, he said, "You know, it's time for you to step up your public service." And I was just like, you know, I would love to, but there's so many reasons why it's not right for me. One, I'm young. And he's like, "Shannon, I know you're young." Like, "Well, I'm young, and I'm black." And he was really perplexed. He's like, "Bruh, I definitely know you're black." So, yeah.

Tim Fulton 09:35And I'm like — "Mayor, we'll ignore the younger folks." It's important to note that Coleman is also a black man.

Shannon Hardin 09:40He's a black guy. He's known me most of my life. And so, when I got to "young, black," he's like, "Bro, what the hell are you talking about?" Because what I was also saying — I think I was using a code, where I was saying, "I'm too liberal for the city. I'm black, I'm too liberal for the city, I'm young." And he's like, "Shannon, what are you talking about?" I'm like, "Mayor, I can't do this right now, I can't do this job. I'm young, I'm black, and I'm gay." And on this flight, he told me — he said, "Shannon, you know, first of all, that's only an issue if you think it's an issue." He's like, "For me, I think that's the exact reason why you have to do this, and why you have to do it. Our city is growing, it's changing, it's becoming more diverse, and a city must see themselves in its representatives. And so that's why you should go." And that's really when a switch flipped in my mind, that took me from being behind the scenes, a policy person — which was still my favorite job, I loved it, absolutely loved it — to be a little bit more out there in terms of my leadership as the elected official. So I went for Columbus City Council that fall, in 2014. And back in the day, the thing was, you know, there was a lot of appointments going on. You apply to show people that you're interested; you don't get it, but it just shows folks that you're interested. And then you apply the next time it comes open, and maybe you're considered. I accidentally got it the first time. So I was appointed. I was a pretty young guy. And I've been serving ever since. So I've been on council now for eight years — I'm in my eighth year. So the last four years, I have served as its council president, and I've been very grateful to lead this body and be a part of leadership in this amazing city.

Tim Fulton 11:22Great, fantastic. Can you talk through, at such a high level, some of the policy areas that you tend to focus on?

Shannon Hardin 11:31Yeah. So I say that everything that anybody — not just policymakers and leaders of our city, but all of us who are at all moving in our community right now — should be focused on, cannot escape, is growth. All the good stuff that is happening, and, truthfully, a lot of the bad stuff, is all wrapped up in that growth that is happening in our city. We all know that we're going to add 500,000 to a million more people over the next 20 years. And that kind of change, without real planning, without real process, and without real intentionality, especially around equity — and making sure that the growth is really meant for, and experienced by, and supported, and lifting up, and is correcting issues of our past — that kind of growth can be really bad if not really thought through. And so everything that I do, all the work that I am focused on, is really around the growth of our city and how we can do that in an equitable and inclusive way that lifts all boats. Because I think that we've been doing well for a long time in Columbus, for at least a decade, probably two decades. But, you know, it hasn't been felt by everybody. And as the city is growing, and we're getting more dense, you have the folks — we have two-thirds of our community who are not doing well. And yet they're not in there — they're literally looking at stuff, they're hearing about the celebrations. We saved the Crew, and we build up downtown, and we build up this waterfront, you know, the river. And those are amazing things that we have done, and many, many more. But how the hell is this impacting me in a good way? And so as we grow more, that kind of thing will happen — those things will happen, and good for us, we will continue to do those big things. But it has to be for everybody. It has to be for everybody, or else we will lose one thing that is most special about our city. The thing that completely separates us and makes us better than any big city in the country is that a kid on the south side of Columbus is still somehow connected to a person in Clintonville. Or, you know, the old lady who lives in Linden is still a part of the concern of somebody on the west side. We are so unique in this, as a city our size, that we are still connected, we still care, we still love our neighbor. And we still feel like, you know, "It's not great over there, but it's part of my problem, and I want to be a part of fixing it." And if we don't start to do things and really lean into things that are demonstrably for everybody, then I think that we will start to pit each other against each other, saying, "Well, screw German Village, because I'm not doing well over here," or "Screw the south side," or "Why are you investing so much in Linden when we need a street paved over here?" We right now still have this real opportunity to build this boat and make it float, where we are lifted together. And I think that's, like, the most special thing. And so there's the growth conversation — we can go in a million different ways of how we're leaning into it. Obviously, affordable housing and our housing issue — we went from a housing problem four or five years ago to a full-fledged crisis, and we have to lean into it. We have to build more housing. We don't have enough, we don't physically have — we have a supply-demand issue in our city that is crippling us, and will make it hardly possible for folks who work in our city to be able to live and raise their family in our city. We cannot make the mistakes of these other communities. So housing is a huge focus of mine. Transit is a huge, huge focus of mine. We cannot be the largest city in the country without advanced transit. We cannot physically add a million more people and not terribly change your quality of life. If you are a Columbus resident, and we do not do a transit system, then your quality of life will be diminished. And if you want a sneak peek into what this looks like, it looks like the Short North pre-COVID, where, for all of us Columbus folks, the parking sucked, because the neighborhood grew faster than our plans for transportation and how we get people in and out of it. If you did not love that, then we got to focus on transit. Because if not, it's coming to a neighborhood near you, all throughout our community, not just the downtown core, because of the growth that we're coming up upon. The transit issue and transportation is an everybody issue, and we all have to be on it. And we can go deep into that, because there are equity issues in there. We have to have a quality — we have to respect the time and the dignity of our workers who need to take transit, even. And, you know, it's important for me to get home to my 11-month-old baby at night, and I can do that because I have an option to get home quickly. But for some folks who are taking transit, you lose dignity in having to take a two-hour trip home every evening — you lose dignity and time, and precious time with our loved ones. And so this is an equity issue too. So we got to talk about transit. But then we also got to talk about the workforce development component. We also have Intel. And the thing about Intel — Intel didn't change anything, but maybe the pace at which we were going. The direction we didn't divert. We didn't say, "Oh, we got Intel, look at us now." We were already going in this direction; it just sped it up. And the issue is that we don't have enough credentialed folks ready to take the jobs of the future. I believe that workforce development, human development, is the new economic development for a community. Big companies don't choose a city based off of just physical infrastructure, and even — surprise, surprise — off of an abatement, or whatever it is that a government would have to give. They choose it off of who has a workforce that is primed, educated, and ready to take jobs. We have an issue there. It's why we created the Columbus Promise. I would love to talk more about the Columbus Promise. It is a guarantee that any kid coming out of Columbus City Schools will be able to go to college for free, tuition-free. And they will have the wraparound services to keep them in school too. So they'll get $1,000 each year to stay in school. Right now, Phase One is direct to Columbus State. We are working already on Phase Two, that hopefully will bring in a four-year partner and a historically black college and university. And I think the last area — again, all of these things are connected to growth — is safety. As a growing city, we have growing city problems. We again have more and more folks who are teetering on the edge. And then we had a whole bunch of people that were teetering on the edge — that pandemic came, and they got swiped up over the side. We lost the ability to engage with them, and we lost the ability to have our social service organizations work with them. We lost the ability for teachers in the school district to have their hands on these kids. We lost the ability for churches to work and just do the social gathering stuff that keeps folks together mentally. So we had these people that were teetering on the edge already, you bring a pandemic that takes away all of these social constructs, social support. I always say that during the pandemic, I never had to worry about a roof over my head — my husband and I are fine. We never had to worry about food on our table, how we were gonna get the kids to school when we didn't have laptops. And I almost went crazy. Literally almost lost my mind. I'm gonna say the F word, I don't know how to — let you know.

Tim Fulton 19:24You're fine. Yeah, I'll mark it explicit. The first episode. Yeah.

Shannon Hardin 19:29You have to put this — listed on there. Oh, man. So I almost lost my mind. And we had all these things. So what the hell do we expect for our population that was teetering on the edge, that got swiped over the edge with this pandemic? It was going to have an impact on folks. And we're seeing it in the violent crimes that are happening in our community. We are making the right investments. We are leaning into reform, because we can't just whitewash over 2020 and think that the conversations we had around race are not important, are not real, or are not correct. We have to have a criminal justice system that is good for everybody, not just for some. So we're gonna have to support policing, support traditional safety, but also reforms like alternative crisis responses, that are all things that are important to a growing community. All that to say is that growth is the key for all of us. Anything that you would bring up, anybody that I think you bring on this podcast — if they're not somehow connecting what they're talking about to growth, they're off point for the community that we're in. We have amazing opportunities. But we also have amazing challenges. And I believe that we are in this five-, 10-year period where we have to do the big things now. We have to do those big things. Because if we don't, we will fall terribly behind. The story is written — our growth is the Goldilocks growth. And I thank God for it. We're growing at just the right pace, that it gives us that insight to see where we're going, and it gives us just enough time to do the things to prepare for it. Some cities didn't have that opportunity — they grew way too fast, and now you can't drive around, now you have crazy equity issues, now your housing issue will not be solved. But somebody says we can do it right here, if we do the big things now.

Tim Fulton 21:22So that was fantastic. I mean, I want to circle back on a couple of the things that you talked about. You talked about, first of all, the sort of collective pride that, thankfully, the city has, and how we don't demean or have a feeling of less equity towards others in other neighborhoods. I do think, however — and this is not a criticism of how or why — but I think that there are certain sectors of the city that say, "Why is this Franklinton getting so much attention? Why did downtown get so much attention?" I think, without the larger narrative of what kind of neighborhood it was in the past, the investment and the explosive growth happening in Franklinton could be looked at as a pet project to some. And I want to point to the reforms — the citizen-led charter commission made recommendations, I think, in 2017, and then it was passed in '18, that specifically pointed to the need for neighborhood commissions to be around to represent every single member of the city. So, yeah, I don't know that I have a question there.

Shannon Hardin 22:41I think you're hitting on something. I think this is the thing: I'm very grateful for the city. For one, I'm proud of the leadership that we've had over the last two decades, even. And I say often, the city that we live in is less about the eight years that I've been on council. It's more about the 20, 25 years of folks before us who did things, specifically, that put us in a place to be the city where we are right now. There were decisions made specifically by former Mayor Coleman, in those early years, late years on council and the early '90s and the early 2000s, that said that downtown was not going to be a ghost town, that it was gonna be a place where people live, work, and play. You know, folks that are younger are looking at the city like, "Oh, why are they doing all these things? I grew up downtown." Well, because we didn't have an economic engine before. We did not have a downtown — we had a place where people came in nine to five and then left. There was nothing downtown, and we could not have been competitive. We could not be competitive today if we didn't make real investments in bringing housing downtown, bringing life, entertainment downtown, all of those things. Again, I get it, because it's growing. For me, even growing up in the South Side, the drive from the South Side up South High Street to downtown was a hell of a drive, because you drove through what felt like — you started in the forgotten far South Side, and you drive up, you start to get cute around Greenlawn, you look to your right, and there's some beautiful little houses in German Village, and pop, you're in downtown. It's like, "Oh, it's a whole new world." I get that. But the truth is, there is connectivity there. That economic development that happened downtown, in those early years, allowed for us to build the rec centers on the south side that serve our most needy. Those are the economic development dollars that we needed to do those things. So I get that. But what I also get, and why — so, time and time again, I think in 2014, there was almost a ballot initiative, and certainly in 2016 there was a ballot initiative, to change how city government works, because folks say, "Well, I don't feel represented. We have this at-large system where, you know, I don't have my own representative who's advocating for me." I think that's a pure intent, that argument and that need and the necessity to have somebody that's just for me. But I think that we have to be careful in terms of how one does that. And so I was never supportive of a full ward system, where we broke up the city in quadrants, and you had one person only thinking about this side of town. I think that that is the quickest way to erase everything I've talked about, from the very beginning, where we're all in this together. I think that that is very dangerous. You look around the country, those cities that have full ward systems, or quasi — it is not even — they're less competitive, because they're not able to do the big things, because no one is having the global view of what's good for all of us. So they're not able to provide for their residents. They're able to make them feel good, because you can turn on your TV and see your representative, you know, talk, and march at something downtown. But you're not able to bring anything home, because they're just that one vote. And so we understood the reality, the truth in that argument, that "Wait a minute, we're all at large, we're a growing city," and that all seven council members, even today — we are a 220-square-mile city, we have 915,000 people — all seven of my council members, we could live in the same apartment building right now and say that we represent Columbus. That's not right. We know that. That doesn't seem right, doesn't feel right. And so, after those failed attempts to change the system — one of the ones was what would have added 25 council members to Columbus, escalating up to 25 council members and districts. I fought hard against that. But we needed a commission to look at this, because there was some real credence to these arguments. And what they came up with was a quasi system, one that says that we are all in this thing Columbus together. So we should all be able to pick the representatives that represent all of us, we should all be represented by all the same people. However, we need to have geographic diversity on council. Meaning, what I believe people meant when they said they wanted a district representative was, they want to know that somebody is driving down their street once in a while, that somebody saw that corner store that had been there for 20 years that no longer is there and feels a pain because of it — because they know that store. They want some proximity to their representative. And so what the commission came up with was a quasi system, where council members, folks who want to run for council, will have to live in specific districts. However, they have to live there, but they will have to run and be elected by the entire city. So now we will have geographic diversity on council, but we'll still have that at-large model. But we also noticed that council had not changed its structure and not changed its size in over 100 years, since 1903. And so we are adding two new council members. So we will go from seven members, all at large, to nine members in districts that are voted on at large.

Tim Fulton 28:25So the map has been approved, the map has been released, as of right now. And, full disclosure, I brought this up before I started recording, so I sort of know the answer. Currently, you and two other of the current seven members all are in the same district. Yeah. And all of you — well, excuse me, those that decide to run again — are all being reelected or elected in 2023. How does that shake out?

Shannon Hardin 29:01So, one thing that I hope both our voters, our constituents, are proud of is that, you know, we had a districting process that was led by citizens and residents. They drew these districts. We, as council members, did not. You can look at the statehouse and see what happens currently, when you have politicians drawing districts, and they're drawing districts for themselves, versus having residents lead a process that is more democratic and good for the better good. Our process was community-led. We support what the commission put forward. Three of us do live in a district — like we do in all things, we will figure it out. We will do what is best for our residents, and, you know, we still have options. There are districts that don't have a current councilmember in them; maybe folks can move, or — we will see what will happen. But regardless, 2023 will be a huge year for the City of Columbus. And not only will these new nine council members be running — or maybe more than that, I'm sure that we'll have primaries and such — but you'll have these nine seats open. You will also have open the city attorney, the auditor, and the mayor. So the entire electorate, the entire governing body, the entire governance of our city will be on the ballot in '23. And so, get ready. TV time. Promotional stuff, y'all know. But a lot. So —

Tim Fulton 30:32Put on your political hat for a second. Yeah, we haven't had — when was the last time we had even a Republican on council? It had to be the '90s.

Shannon Hardin 30:46Early 2000s. We had Jeannette Bradley. It was the last Republican to be on council.

Tim Fulton 30:51Yeah. And the last time we had a Republican mayor was —

Shannon Hardin 30:57Yeah, sure — a while.

Tim Fulton 31:00So, for lack of a better term, this district system — not a ward system, but a district system — where, like, they don't just get to pull from who was active, who's been helping with fundraising, who's been an activist in the space. And I think a criticism of council, frankly, has been that appointment process in the past, hey, where somebody knows that they're likely not going to run again, and rather than let it just be an open seat, they resigned shortly before the election, in order to allow that person to be not necessarily reelected, but to be an incumbent. Because it's easy to hold on to the seat, right. And that's a demonstration of party power more than anything else. Do you have any theory about, like, is this truly just gonna feel a little bit more like a free-for-all? I imagine there will be an endorsed slate. You'll get a real big pool. Yeah.

Shannon Hardin 31:59Yeah. So, good question, Tim. It's what keeps me up at night. I'm a process guy anyways, and as the leader of this body and a leader of the city, I don't want chaos next year, I don't want chaos for the next 14, 16 months. And so I will be thinking a lot, and working with my colleagues, working with the party, working with community leaders, about a process, so that we can have some order in this. That being said, shit's gonna be crazy. It's gonna be insane. One — there's no pushback on the appointment points that you were making. I have never been a fan of the appointment process. I don't think that I have any grand wisdom that says, like, I and five or six other folks should pick a person. When we went through the charter changes, I pushed very hard to change the appointment process. But I was convinced, this is how people fill seats, this is how you do it. I mean, the only other alternative for us to do this — because people leave at all times — is to trigger a special election. Well, for us to trigger a special election in a city our size — again, we're all at large — that's like $7 million each time. And, you know, that's just not a good use of our time, that's not a good use of our taxpayer dollars, to fill it. So they are temporary appointments; the person has to run. That being said, since I've been Council President, we've made fewer appointments than any other time. Councilmember Liz Brown did not run as an elected — she was an outsider and won her seat, as well as Councilmember Cynthia, as well as the last few council members that ran with me last year. We just had folks do what you just explained — the opposite. We had folks retire on council. And it's because we have made that decision that it is better if we can plan, to help people run without that. So we've been moving in that direction anyways. For this next cycle, I think that you will have a lot of people coming out and wanting to engage. And I think that's a good thing. I think it's healthy. I've never been offended by anybody running against me. And most of the people that have run against me turn out to end up being great partners, and end up being great friends. Not the last person I ran against, but everybody else.

Tim Fulton 34:21Well, and to your point there, hopefully anybody who's running for council or any other elected office in the city is doing it for the sake of the city. Yeah, right. And so that's where some camaraderie can — very Columbus.

Shannon Hardin 34:37For them to blow me up on issues — and trust me, there's enough stuff — I mean, we have to make hard decisions every day, where the answer is not an honest and obvious yes, or an obvious no. So there are definitely places where, yeah, I'm open to criticism, and I take that as part of being a leader. I have to make a decision on hard stuff. If it wasn't hard, somebody below us would make the decision. And so, that's for me. And most of the folks who engage in public service — Republican, Democrat, Independent, or anything in between — usually are doing it for the right reasons, and have been additive to the conversation. So I think that we will have a very engaged dialogue next year, on every level of government.

Tim Fulton 35:19Yeah. The last thing from the issue-area list that you sort of went through: we're at a focal point, we've got to invest money in transit, we've got to focus on reform, there are things that we have to do now. That argument doesn't sound dissimilar from the climate change argument. And whereas there, people can point to, "Hey, we've got 10 years left, we've got 10 years or 15" — so I guess my question is, like, you know, you look at a city like Austin, where, arguably, it was too late, and they had to basically retrofit their city around their situation. Do you have a timeline? Do you think — and I want to add an addendum to that, in that, should we be afraid that this upcoming election delays that? Because large change, large initiatives, are difficult to do right before an election.

Shannon Hardin 36:28Well, I'm —

Tim Fulton 36:30Or am I thinking of this maybe a little bit too much in a "here's how Congress works" — but yeah, surely we don't work that way.

Shannon Hardin 36:39I think a couple of things. One, I'm not a futurist. I listened to one of your podcasts we had on, I believe, so — yeah, I did not even really understand that there are folks that are that specific in terms of what will happen. But what I do know is that there are forces that are changing our community. It is happening, it will happen over the next 20 years. Maybe we should use the well-invested-in studies and data that we have, that say that by 2050, we'll have a million more people. That's enough information already to start to back into this thing. If we have a million more people, and that's what we're preparing for, and we need to build a transit system — we're talking about a multi-multi-billion-dollar effort to build it. So, one, you had to build the information, the engagement with the community, to get us all there, that we want something. Then you have to figure out what it is that we want. And then you got to go to the public and say, "Hey, this is what we want, this is what we all believe that we need. Would we ante up some money for it?" We have done the first two steps of that. We have talked to the community, we've gotten everybody saying we need transit, we have come up with a plan. Now we're at the next step, whereby we need to go to the public. And I think we will, in very short order, talk to the public about how we can support transit — not just next year, not just COTA as we know it, but a transformative system that will move our city forward. And I think that we have to have that conversation this year or next. I guess it's that soon that we have to have that. Because we know that once we make the decision, it takes 10 years to build the thing. And so now we're into 2035, you know, and what we're talking about building is the skeletal system that will do amazing things. But we know that we'll need to do more, because by that time, in 10 more years, we'll have 250, 300,000 more people. And so we come back into this about, when is that timeframe of when we have to do stuff. And I really do think that we're in that sweet spot. I think that it's not just transit, though. I think that we have to, again, be much bolder on housing, and really lean into a land-use conversation. Because if we keep building the way we are, which is not nearly enough, but it's sporadic and not focused, then we will take all the available land, and it will just jack up costs, without a real strategy to bring real density and really be able to bring these folks in. So we have to do that now, because — I mean, people are coming in, you know, every year. The last couple years, the community has created 15,000 jobs. Like, that is gangbusters, that's so dope, like, yeah, we created jobs. But we built less than 5,000 units. So, like, literally, we are succeeding ourselves into failure. We are creating more jobs, bringing more people in, and not housing them.

Tim Fulton 39:42Yeah, it's crazy. And I do think that some people may say, like, "Hey, this kind of sounds like a Chicken Little situation. The sun is shining, everything is great." Whereas it's like, no, the sky might start falling in on us, even though it's —

Shannon Hardin 39:59Totally. No, it's falling. Today, we announced $90 million for human service agencies. Last week, I was with service providers that do emergency shelter. I heard stories about — from folks who lost their limbs a couple of months ago, in January, when the temperature was 19 degrees, and our shelters were full. Our shelters are full because — another gentleman last week told me that he has a housing voucher, voucher money to get a house, but there is not a house to be rented. And renters will not take the vouchers, because they can pick the best person with the best credit every day now, because there's that much need. So the sky is falling for a lot of our residents. The issue is, it'll get closer and closer to you, and your issues and your concerns, if we don't do something about it now.

Tim Fulton 40:58One final question, and then I want to get to that same question I ask everybody, which I'm very interested to hear. What is the best way for the citizenry to engage you and council at large, in order to, first of all, have their issues be heard, and second of all, to help to better the city? This is just voting?

Shannon Hardin 41:23Yeah, a couple of ways. We talked about civic associations and area commissions. That is the place where so many things are decided. Because we are still at large, and because we don't just have that district representation, those area commissions are council's eyes and ears. And they're the first line of information that we get, as elected leaders, about what a neighborhood wants and what they see is happening on the ground. But too often — I mean, they are run by folks, great folks, amazing folks, but they've been there for 20 years, they're tired, they've given so much, and you don't get paid for it. It is just gritty work. And people come and beat up on you. And you don't even get to do, like, the press conferences that I get to do. Like, people ask me all the time, but what you're doing is you're building your neighborhood, you're fighting and advocating for your neighborhood. And you are the conduit, up through the system, to make sure that your neighborhood concerns are heard. We need more good people, we need more young people joining those area commissions and civic associations. There is real power there, there is real influence there. And the only way that we solve our housing issue is through our area commissions and having the people that have the understanding, the foresight, to really think about our city today, but really where we're going as well. So that's a huge opportunity, a huge ask that I would have. Second, I would say that council is the most accessible council — our elected officials of any city our size. And I can say that almost empirically, because I serve on the executive board of the National League of Cities, I represent 19,000 elected officials around the country. There is no city our size where their council members are still taking direct meetings, phone calls — like, you can call me. There are direct ways to engage. Get on our email list, you can come to our community meetings, we do bus tours of the city in different neighborhoods, you can follow us on social media, you can DM us and get a response from ourselves or our staff. You can ask for anything. And it might — with the actual member, it might take three weeks, but you can be with our staff this week, if you really have a question or concern you want to talk to. So that's another way, direct contact with us. But then the third way is, if you see a problem, and you don't see anybody working on it, that doesn't mean that it's not a problem. It just means that you need to step up and be the person. Because I promise you, if you step up on the issue, other folks will be like, "Oh, yeah, I was looking for that place, I was looking for that group of folks who were working on this." Housing, in particular, is one — we need strong housing advocates. We need strong folks that really will do the work and understand housing policy. Look around the country, look around the world, look around what progressive communities have done, and what communities have not done, and what that means. It's so easy for folks to be like, "You know, I want affordable housing, but I just don't want it over here near me." And it's happening. I mean, it is ubiquitous, it is the norm now. It is so hard to build anything, because great people, good people, people I love — love affordable housing, love housing, love more housing, love the idea of bringing more people. They just don't want it anywhere near them. And that is a problem when we all think that way.

Tim Fulton 44:40And so, from an actionable standpoint, when you say strong housing advocates — you want people to speak on behalf of a housing project, and more?

Shannon Hardin 44:51Yeah. I mean, zoning meetings are boring, until we have a housing project come forward, and you only hear one side. And the issue is — and I've said this — so, I'm in my office right now, I have a 1936 — right here, I keep it on my desk — a 1936 redlining map of the city of Columbus. And I keep it there as a reminder, not just to the people that meet with me, but to myself, that these policies are intentional. There are neighborhoods that we have created, that have legacy issues, that were created and boxed in by policy. So we have to have a policy remedy for all of these things. The forefront of that fight is in zoning meetings. And we're losing every time, we're losing. And because there's nobody there having this conversation, there's nobody there educating the rest of our community about density, what it really means, and how it really impacts their lives. And I get it, because this is a new ward problem for us. We have had land in Columbus, so it's not been an issue like other cities. Well, we're there now. We will run out of land, and we will densify. And we can do it the right way or the wrong way, but it's coming. And we need housing advocates. There are a couple of groups that are standing themselves up that I think are good, but they need energy. They need people of color, they need people of different education backgrounds, different backgrounds, to lean in and get their voices heard, because this will impact you. It will definitely affect you. And we need those advocates out there. But that's just one example. You could do that for a lot of different issues. I would encourage folks to just get started, to research and step out there.

Tim Fulton 46:32Yeah. I want to wrap up today by asking the same thing I ask everybody. And hopefully you can go a little bit outside of the box, because we talked a lot about, like, what are the great things about Columbus, what are the things that we are, or we'll be, challenged by. I want to hear from you what you think Columbus does really well, and then, what does Columbus not do so well?

Shannon Hardin 46:57Well, the thing that I think we do well — it sounds corny, it sounds crazy, and there's a lot of people who rightfully can put some holes in it — but collaboration is easier here than any other city of our size. And you might be salty, if somebody's listening, because your thing didn't get done, or you didn't go to another city and try it. I promise you, it is easier to get something done, to get another person to collaborate with you, in this city than in any other city our size. And that is so special. We have to protect it. This thing where you get me with somebody, and even if you can't support it, you usually leave the meeting with, like, a contact — the person will be like, "Oh, but you should talk to this person." That is unique here. We don't have the old silos that these other cities have. That is dope. We do that better than anybody. What do we do not as good? Um, that's — you know, I mean, we have the same big issues that a lot of folks have. Like, equity. We're leaving people behind. And, you know, we can be bolder. We can be more bold. What I talked about, the good thing about us collaborating — sometimes that means that we're too nice. I like being in a meeting and really just knowing where somebody stands. Like, even if I disagree with them — even if I'm like, "That fucker" — like, at least I know where they are. And from there, I think that we need to be big and bold, and come with crazy ideas, and just try shit more often, try off-the-wall stuff. We will fail sometimes, we might even fail most of the time. But a couple of times, we will knock it out of the park, and those times will lead us forward in so many ways. And I just don't think that we're bold enough.

Tim Fulton 48:56I agree. President Hardin, Shannon, thank you so much for your time. Thank you, my friend. Thanks for listening to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite elected official. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.