Arnold Sports Festival

Tim Fulton 0:07Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week we are going to pump you up. The Arnold Sports Festival is coming to town, and I sat down with the organization's president, Bob Lorimer, to learn about how it got started, how Bob is carrying on the legacy of the festival that his father originally created, and I focus way too much on table tennis. A housekeeping note for you, the Confluence Cast is now on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or go straight on over to patreon.com/confluence. Also, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Bob Lorimer, the president of Arnold Sports Festival. Bob, how are you, sir?

Bob Lorimer 1:11Very good. Thank you, Tim, for having us on the show today.

Tim Fulton 1:14Oh, of course. Of course. For those that are not familiar, I don't know many Columbus listeners that aren't, but for those that are not familiar with the Arnold Sports Festival, give us basically the elevator pitch. W- what is it?

Bob Lorimer 1:25Well, uh, Tim, it's really, it's kinda escalated itself, but today it's the largest multi-sport festival that we know of in the nation. So.

Tim Fulton 1:35Okay. And it, from your website, brings in 20,000 athletes every year, eight from 80 nations participating in 70 different sports, an anticipated 200,000 attendees. We are now this year in the 29th year of the event in Columbus, so it started back in '89, is that correct?

Bob Lorimer 1:53Correct. It, uh, took, it took Arnold's name in 1989.

Tim Fulton 1:57That is Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Bob Lorimer 1:59Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Tim Fulton 2:00The, the only-

Bob Lorimer 2:00The one and only.

Tim Fulton 2:01The Arnold. Give us the, the rundown. You know, what... Talk about the history of the event.

Bob Lorimer 2:06In the '60s, my father was interested in track and field. He had just moved to Columbus from Pennsylvania.

Tim Fulton 2:13Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:14Uh, he'd gotten out of the, out of the FBI, actually.

Tim Fulton 2:17Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:18And, and he, he moved here from, with Nationwide Insurance. And when he moved here, his, one of his passions was, uh, track and field, like I say, and he was, he was going around to different track and field events just following 'em.

Tim Fulton 2:32Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:32And he was in New York and, and he saw some of the women competing against Russia.

Tim Fulton 2:38Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:38And they were just whomping us all the way through. So he said, "Man, there's no reason why our women can't c- perform at this level."

Tim Fulton 2:46Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:47So from there, he came back and he, he went down to the OSU and, and teamed up with a coach for the OSU, and they started an Ohio girls track club.

Tim Fulton 2:56Okay.

Bob Lorimer 2:57And they continued to teach the girls and went on to other competitions and back into New York again, and started doing extremely well. So in 1968, the United States Olympic Committee named him coach for the women's track and field.

Tim Fulton 3:11Okay.

Bob Lorimer 3:12And so therefore he just took... It started from there. In 1970, the United States had the opportu- opportunity to run the World Weightlifting Championships.

Tim Fulton 3:23Okay.

Bob Lorimer 3:24And they asked him if he'd be interested in hosting that, and that was another one of his hobbies as well. And he said, uh, he'd be happy to, but he knew at the time that bodybuilding was an emerging sport.

Tim Fulton 3:36Okay.

Bob Lorimer 3:37And he said he would be... He'd run the World Weightlifting Championship, but he knew nobody really came to watch weightlifting.

Tim Fulton 3:43Right.

Bob Lorimer 3:43And he said, "If you let me run a bodybuilding competition, you know, that way I can get some people here and pay for the, pay for the event." And they said, "No problem." And at that point is when he got a young Austrian on the phone and said, "I'm running a competition."

Tim Fulton 3:57Who, who-

Bob Lorimer 3:57"Will you come and compete?"

Tim Fulton 3:59Who would that be?

Bob Lorimer 4:00And that would've been Arnold Schwarzenegger himself.

Tim Fulton 4:03Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:03So Arnold said he was competing in London on Saturday night, and my father said, "Well, our event is on Sunday night." So he said, "If we send a plane to get you, will you come and compete?" And Arnold said, "Well, if you do that, I'll come."

Tim Fulton 4:18Right. Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:19So my father flew a plane in and picked Arnold up.

Tim Fulton 4:22'Cause at that time he was-

Bob Lorimer 4:23He had just started. He was just emerging as, in the sport of body-

Tim Fulton 4:26So he was not internationally known at that point.

Bob Lorimer 4:29He, at that point, he was just a n- just a, one of the best competitors. He had just won the European championships.

Tim Fulton 4:35Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:36He'd r- he'd just come off the World Championships.

Tim Fulton 4:38Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:39And he came in and beat Sergio Oliva.

Tim Fulton 4:43Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:43Which was, he was the king at the time.

Tim Fulton 4:45And so your father basically said, "Well, if I'm gonna do this event, do this competition," he identifies the best in the world and says, "It's, it important to have those people at my event."

Bob Lorimer 4:56That's correct.

Tim Fulton 4:57Okay.

Bob Lorimer 4:57And at that time it was all in the AAU, and, uh, but again-

Tim Fulton 5:01AAU

Bob Lorimer 5:02... AAU. Am- Athletic Union.

Tim Fulton 5:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 5:05And, uh, again, Arnold came in, he had won that competition, but right after the show he walked up to my father and he said, "Hey, this is the best run show I've ever been to."

Tim Fulton 5:15Okay.

Bob Lorimer 5:15"And when I retire from the sport of bodybuilding, I wanna come back and be your partner." And of course, he said this in, you know, that German accent, really broken accent.

Tim Fulton 5:24Right.

Bob Lorimer 5:25And, uh, Arn- my father said, "Oh, yeah, sure."

Tim Fulton 5:26Sure.

Bob Lorimer 5:27Sure.

Tim Fulton 5:27Sounds great, buddy.

Bob Lorimer 5:27Sure, kid. You know?

Tim Fulton 5:29Thanks so much for coming.

Bob Lorimer 5:29But actually, Arnold went on to continue to c- compete and he w- he started in running the, um, the Olympia competitions.

Tim Fulton 5:37Okay.

Bob Lorimer 5:37And in 1975 he won in South Africa.

Tim Fulton 5:41Okay.

Bob Lorimer 5:41And on his way back from South Africa, he stopped in and said, "Jim, I, I'm serious now and I wanna come back. I'm gonna retire from the sport, and I wanna do the promotion with you." So in 1976, uh, they teamed up with Joe Weider.

Tim Fulton 5:56Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 5:56Joe and Ben Weider, and they formed in the, uh, here in Columbus, Ohio, the Mr. Olympia competition-

Tim Fulton 6:02Okay

Bob Lorimer 6:04It just, since then it's just taken off, and they've, they've run shows consecutively here in Columbus for, since 1976.

Tim Fulton 6:12Okay. So '89 is the first, then let's, let's, you know, go up 11 years.

Bob Lorimer 6:17And that, fa- fast-forward, we did six Mis- six, uh, Olympias, couple Mr. Universes, Mr. World competitions.

Tim Fulton 6:24Okay.

Bob Lorimer 6:25But because they kept moving it around, Arnold knew in, in the '80s that his popularity was really heading towards the top. He had a couple Terminators under his belt at that point.

Tim Fulton 6:34Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 6:34And, and so his popularity is beyond mention. And so at that point is when we took on Arnold's name-

Tim Fulton 6:43Okay

Bob Lorimer 6:43... for the, for the weekend.

Tim Fulton 6:44Okay.

Bob Lorimer 6:44So.

Tim Fulton 6:45And it's been that way ever since.

Bob Lorimer 6:47Ever since, that's correct.

Tim Fulton 6:48My next reasonable question is why Columbus, but I think maybe you answered it. Is it simply because your-

Bob Lorimer 6:53It's simply just because my father was-

Tim Fulton 6:55Okay

Bob Lorimer 6:55... my father was here with Nationwide Insurance.

Tim Fulton 6:58Okay.

Bob Lorimer 6:58And that's where, that's where it got started. Nationwide was also very, very much behind the promotion of sports-

Tim Fulton 7:05Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 7:05... and in everything that he was doing. And so, um-

Tim Fulton 7:09Lending itself as a sponsor

Bob Lorimer 7:11... lending itself as a sponsor, and all the support that Nationwide gave it along the way.

Tim Fulton 7:15Okay. Talk about the festival for a patron. What could, what can they expect? What are the cool things to check out?

Bob Lorimer 7:23Well, again, so what happened is in 1989 it was still really a bodybuilding show.

Tim Fulton 7:28Okay.

Bob Lorimer 7:28And it was in Veterans Memorial.

Tim Fulton 7:30Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 7:31We just started to s- to branch out and get sponsors in, and sponsors at that time were mainly equipment companies. But the, one of the first things that we did is we, we expanded right into a martial arts.

Tim Fulton 7:43Okay.

Bob Lorimer 7:43And then when, when we started in with martial arts, that's when we started to get other sponsors and other unique sports that were coming into us. So-

Tim Fulton 7:51Okay

Bob Lorimer 7:52... since, really since 1989, we've continued to expand one sport, two sports, three sports every year. So this thing really just didn't happen overnight. In this 40-year period, it's just naturally transitioned itself into now 76 sports and events on our weekend.

Tim Fulton 8:10Okay. So you have the Fitness Expo that occurs at the Convention Center, correct?

Bob Lorimer 8:15Correct.

Tim Fulton 8:15And that's sort of, you know, you have the ability to go in, check out a bunch of vendors. It's primarily a sponsor experience, right? There's a stage there. So there is some aspect of presentation and competition, correct?

Bob Lorimer 8:27Yes, absolutely. And a- as we said, so we, we, basically we did start in Veterans Memorial in the basement.

Tim Fulton 8:33Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 8:33Expanded then into the North Hall, 'cause they expanded the Veterans Memorial at the time.

Tim Fulton 8:38Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 8:38But we outgrew that very fast.

Tim Fulton 8:40Okay.

Bob Lorimer 8:40So as soon as they built the Convention Center, we moved over into the Convention Center.

Tim Fulton 8:45Okay.

Bob Lorimer 8:45And that's when the real growth started to happen, because that's when we were sh- really started to add sports, more events. The people came, the popularity shifted from, basically from nutriti- or to a nutrition base, uh, business, and a little bit away from the equipment manufacturers that were just in the other facilities. But-

Tim Fulton 9:04Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 9:04... and then s- soon thereafter, we also added, uh, cheerleading.

Tim Fulton 9:08Okay.

Bob Lorimer 9:09And when cheerleading came in, cheerleading had another huge popularity and, and it brought in another 3,000 to 4,000 kids in it. And so that's when the, the thought of the Kids' Fitness Expo really started to take off.

Tim Fulton 9:20And that occurs at the, what I think of as the fairgrounds, right?

Bob Lorimer 9:24Well, so again, through a transition of all these years, a couple years ago, they, they, the city decided to take down Veterans Memorial.

Tim Fulton 9:32Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 9:33And at that point we were already filling as much space as we could. The-

Tim Fulton 9:37'Cause you were-

Bob Lorimer 9:38We were-

Tim Fulton 9:38... fully occupying the Convention Center

Bob Lorimer 9:39... we, we, we had 100% of the Convention Center and all of Veterans Memorial. So when they took Veterans Memorial down, we were in a spot, because again, we had so, we had another 100,000 square feet that we had to fill.

Tim Fulton 9:51Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 9:51So we went back to the Columbus Dispatch, which was holding its event at the fairgrounds, and they were very happy to help us, and they knew the support that Col- we were giving to Columbus. So they moved their event off of our weekend.

Tim Fulton 10:05Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 10:05And they had been on that same weekend historically for 27 years. We were-

Tim Fulton 10:09That's the Home and Garden Show, right?

Bob Lorimer 10:10Uh, and yeah, the Home and Garden. We were so happy that they did that. They, again, they were very supportive.

Tim Fulton 10:16Well, and it's, I-

Bob Lorimer 10:17And we, we appreciate the Wolfe family and The Dispatch for everything that they had done for us, so.

Tim Fulton 10:21Yeah. And I think probably the worst kept secret in Columbus that, you know, Arnold and the Wolfe family have a, a relationship and know each other-

Bob Lorimer 10:28That's-

Tim Fulton 10:28... quite well

Bob Lorimer 10:29... that's correct. And again, uh, well, The Dispatch has partnered with us very well. We're very happy to have them as a partner. And, uh, again, as much support as they give us, we try and give them back. So-

Tim Fulton 10:39Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 10:39... there's nine buildings at the Expo Center up there, and so we occupy all the heated buildings. So it's heated-

Tim Fulton 10:46Smart

Bob Lorimer 10:46... 'cause we are in March, so.

Tim Fulton 10:47Right.

Bob Lorimer 10:48But, uh, if that be, if it's heated, we'll, we'll occupy it in some way, so.

Tim Fulton 10:52And so in order to put on an event like this, you guys have f- seven full-time staff. But then also, what sort of, you know, how much additional staff, how much volunteers do you take on?

Bob Lorimer 11:03Well, again, wh- what has happened is just throughout this last 40 years, we've continued to be able to, uh, as we expanded, we get leaders and-

Tim Fulton 11:12Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 11:12... and chair people that r- That participate in each one of the sports. When it gets down to-

Tim Fulton 11:17So there's a group that-

Bob Lorimer 11:18There is... So we have 76 sports and events, so in each one of those sports or events, there is a chairperson runs those events.

Tim Fulton 11:26So let me walk through this real quick. Let- do you have badminton?

Bob Lorimer 11:29Badminton, we- we've looked at badminton so many times.

Tim Fulton 11:32Do you have table tennis?

Bob Lorimer 11:32Yes. We have-

Tim Fulton 11:33Okay

Bob Lorimer 11:33... we have a very large table tennis competition.

Tim Fulton 11:35Great. So I wanna use table tennis as, as the example-

Bob Lorimer 11:38Perfect

Tim Fulton 11:38... going forward. There's a group of people who sort of head that up, that talk at least quarterly about how this is gonna go. There are events that lead up to it, right?

Bob Lorimer 11:49That's correct.

Tim Fulton 11:49Okay. And then so while it is part of the organization, they are sort of separate in that they're bringing their winners to this event.

Bob Lorimer 11:58That's correct. And, and again, it's not necessarily just winners. It just depends on the, the sport and the promotion of that sport.

Tim Fulton 12:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 12:04But in a lot of cases, they can have qualifiers, they can have different events that come out. I- in table tennis for instance, it's an open competition. They put in 70 tables inside of the Voinovich.

Tim Fulton 12:16Okay.

Bob Lorimer 12:16And so when you walk into the Voinovich and see 70 player... You know, there's 140 players playing at a time.

Tim Fulton 12:21Right. That's awesome.

Bob Lorimer 12:22So it's, it's, it's quite an event. It's a spectacular thing to walk in and see.

Tim Fulton 12:26So are you saying I can literally submit to play table tennis that day?

Bob Lorimer 12:30Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 12:32Okay.

Bob Lorimer 12:32Now, if you haven't been playing much, you might get knocked out pretty pretty early rounds.

Tim Fulton 12:36Well, I would imagine.

Bob Lorimer 12:36But, but we would love to have you. And, and again, in most of our sports, that's the same way. We take, we take open, open to the public.

Tim Fulton 12:43Open call.

Bob Lorimer 12:43Open call, so.

Tim Fulton 12:44And so how does that... And I'm just curious from a logistics perspective, how far ahead of time are people registering? Obviously, sports that take training and stuff, they're training year-round. But how far ahead of time do people know that they're gonna come and compete-

Bob Lorimer 12:58Again, it's-

Tim Fulton 12:58... in table tennis?

Bob Lorimer 12:59It's, it's really unique to the sport itself.

Tim Fulton 13:01Okay.

Bob Lorimer 13:01So if you take, for instance, pump and run.

Tim Fulton 13:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 13:04And pump and run's a really unique competition because, again-

Tim Fulton 13:07I don't believe I'm familiar

Bob Lorimer 13:08... and if you're not familiar with what pump and run is, it's one of those things that the b- p- a man has to bench press his body weight-

Tim Fulton 13:15Okay

Bob Lorimer 13:15... for a maximum of 30 repetitions.

Tim Fulton 13:18So that's the pump.

Bob Lorimer 13:18But for every repetition that he does, he gets a minute off of his race time, and then they go out-

Tim Fulton 13:25Okay

Bob Lorimer 13:25... and run a 5K race. So-

Tim Fulton 13:27Okay

Bob Lorimer 13:28... uh, so if he goes out and he bench presses 20 repetitions, he gets 20 minutes off of his time.

Tim Fulton 13:32Got it.

Bob Lorimer 13:33Or 30 second- it's 30 seconds off of each, for each repetition. So if a guy can run a fi- 15-minute 5K, which is extremely fast-

Tim Fulton 13:40Right

Bob Lorimer 13:40... if he can also bench press his body weight, he comes in at a zero time.

Tim Fulton 13:44There you go.

Bob Lorimer 13:45And so... And I, I, I started off with that minute because I think that we had to change it because guys were running into the zero minutes.

Tim Fulton 13:51They were, they were doing negative time.

Bob Lorimer 13:51They were getting positive minutes. And, uh, so... And then women, it's 60% of their body weight. So, but, but the re- why we come back to that is-

Tim Fulton 13:59Yeah

Bob Lorimer 14:00... is they open that up on November 1st at midnight.

Tim Fulton 14:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 14:04But by 8:00 in the morning, it's been sold out for the past 10 years.

Tim Fulton 14:08No kidding.

Bob Lorimer 14:09So it sells out in just an eight-hour period.

Tim Fulton 14:11Well, and this is not-

Bob Lorimer 14:12An eight-hour period. So

Tim Fulton 14:13So there aren't really qualifiers for something like that, right?

Bob Lorimer 14:16Nope, it's just enthusiasts that want to participate in that particular event.

Tim Fulton 14:21Okay. Do you find athletes coming in that are competing in multiple sports?

Bob Lorimer 14:25Absolutely, because there's a lot of crossover between... Again, CrossFit's another really emerging sport.

Tim Fulton 14:30Okay.

Bob Lorimer 14:31CrossFit stems over into weightlifting. So there, there's a lot of utility in different sports, so.

Tim Fulton 14:36Okay. Interesting. You guys are occupying multiple spaces throughout the city. Talk about some of the logistical concerns that somebody who hasn't planned a large event like this, what they may not think of.

Bob Lorimer 14:49Well, again, he- here's what we do. We, the city, again, has been so supportive of everything we do.

Tim Fulton 14:55Okay.

Bob Lorimer 14:56So, so if you take our event, what happens is it really starts at Port Columbus.

Tim Fulton 15:00Okay.

Bob Lorimer 15:00So when somebody travels in and they get off of the plane, they... We have signs and directional signs, and, and we have a host of committee that are moving people from, from there to the hotels. And, and so it really starts there. Uh, Port Columbus, we're one of the few events that they support us, and they let us put the banners and-

Tim Fulton 15:19Okay

Bob Lorimer 15:19... and people inside of the venues to meet people as they come and they go. They accidentally take them downtown. We shuttle them downtown. But as soon as they walk into any one of the hotels, we fill 150 hotels in Columbus, Ohio.

Tim Fulton 15:32Right.

Bob Lorimer 15:32And so when you walk into any one of those hotels, we have signage in there, welcome signs, and, you know, we give them key p- key cards. So anybody that goes in, they register for their keys. They get a map of the city. They get a, the schedule of events for the events that are going on for the weekend.

Tim Fulton 15:47Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 15:48And so it really just starts from the beginning to the end. Same thing when they go back out to the airport at the end of the day. There's a goodbye, welcome, you know. It's the-

Tim Fulton 15:54Right

Bob Lorimer 15:54... welcome on your way in, uh, you know, hope to see you again next year on your way out. So-

Tim Fulton 15:59Right

Bob Lorimer 15:59... we have shuttle for the people that live around here or they're traveling in, that, you know, just somebody's, uh, driving over from Cincinnati or wherever they're coming from. We also park cars up at the fairgrounds now.

Tim Fulton 16:10Okay.

Bob Lorimer 16:11And so last year, we parked about 10,000 cars. There's a free shuttle, or, you know, the, the parking's $8 to park up there, and then we shuttle them downtown right to the doorstep and back. The, we have seven buses that run back and forth from 7:00 in the morning to 2:00 AM in the morning. And so it's easy to move around. If you're staying at also one of the hotels downtown, we have, also have another seven buses that go on a loop in the downtown area around to the, all the major downtown hotels-

Tim Fulton 16:36Okay

Bob Lorimer 16:37... right to the doorstep again. So if you're coming in from, uh, from Florida or whatever, we try not to get you cold.

Tim Fulton 16:44Right.

Bob Lorimer 16:44So,

Tim Fulton 16:44Right. Well, and you guys-

Bob Lorimer 16:45So we get you, we get you from door to door, so.

Tim Fulton 16:47You guys for some reason always end up being one of the first warm weekends, as I recall, uh, of the year, just by, by happenstance. Like-

Bob Lorimer 16:55Well, well, we, we, we give d- my father credit for that because, you know, he's just a man of luck and, uh,

Tim Fulton 17:01All right

Bob Lorimer 17:01... so on that weekend, we always get sun, and we, we've never had a bad, uh, bad weekend yet, so.

Tim Fulton 17:06All right. Shout out there to Jim Lorimer then. Again, the Arnold Sports Festival occurs March 2nd through 5th, primarily at the Convention Center downtown, but then also the, uh, kids' and teens' events ... happen up at the Ohio Expo Center, also known to some of you as the Fairgrounds. How far before the festival do you guys take possession of the convention center in order to, like, set up those reinforced stages, stuff like that?

Bob Lorimer 17:30Well, again, for the most part, we've, we, we take over on Sunday.

Tim Fulton 17:34Okay. The Sunday before.

Bob Lorimer 17:35The Sunday before.

Tim Fulton 17:37Okay.

Bob Lorimer 17:37And what happens is, is depending on the event, a lot of the, a lot of the event providers, they bring, they start bringing in their flooring and their carpets-

Tim Fulton 17:45Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 17:45... their stages, and they start marking the floors on Sunday and Monday. Tuesday, they actually start to physically build out the facility.

Tim Fulton 17:54Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 17:55And it's really unique because we film it almost every year where we have a timeline from-

Tim Fulton 17:59Oh, do you do time-lapses of it?

Bob Lorimer 18:00... an empty venue, a time-lapse where it-

Tim Fulton 18:01Yeah

Bob Lorimer 18:01... starts from the beginning to the end, and, uh, it's really interesting to watch.

Tim Fulton 18:05And you're obviously there on site starting on Sunday.

Bob Lorimer 18:08Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 18:08Okay.

Bob Lorimer 18:09Absolutely. All of our ti-

Tim Fulton 18:09Do you get to sleep all week?

Bob Lorimer 18:11Well, I try not, because again- ... you know, I, uh, it's so exciting 'cause there's so many different things going on.

Tim Fulton 18:17Right.

Bob Lorimer 18:17So I wanna see as much as I can, participate in everything that I can as well. So, uh, th- you know, the, some of the events start at 6:00 in the morning, and again, Friday and Saturday night we have late night parties that go on, and-

Tim Fulton 18:29Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 18:29... uh, so we can be there till 2:30, and so it's easier just to stay up than it is to try and get a two-hour sleep- ... and crush right back at it.

Tim Fulton 18:37Absolutely. And do you compete at all?

Bob Lorimer 18:39I don't on our particular weekend-

Tim Fulton 18:41Okay

Bob Lorimer 18:42... because again, you're just so busy trying to help everybody else get through the organization of it.

Tim Fulton 18:46Right.

Bob Lorimer 18:46And-

Tim Fulton 18:47Just curious

Bob Lorimer 18:48... and so.

Tim Fulton 18:48I mean, I'll be there for the table tennis, but.

Bob Lorimer 18:49Well, we look for you to be doing something, so.

Tim Fulton 18:51Thank you. You guys have now expanded internationally. There are six total Arnold Sports Festivals in the world. That's just been going on since 2011. While you're always looking for new sports to include, can you talk about how that happened, how you took this festival international, and, and how you identify areas for growth?

Bob Lorimer 19:12Sure. Kinda what happened for the most part is in, in 2006-

Tim Fulton 19:16Okay

Bob Lorimer 19:16... 'cause we pr- also promote professional bodybuilding. But along with the professional bodybuilding, we wanted to, we knew that there was a whole undergirth of amateurs that wanted to come up and aspire to be professionals.

Tim Fulton 19:27Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 19:27So we started in 2006 an amateur bodybuilding competition in conjunction with our pro.

Tim Fulton 19:33Okay.

Bob Lorimer 19:34So we went to Spain, and the headquarters for the IFBB, International Federation of BodyBuilding, is located in, in Madrid, Spain.

Tim Fulton 19:42Okay.

Bob Lorimer 19:43And we partnered up with the president of that organization to bring an international event to the United States in, in conjunction with the Arnold.

Tim Fulton 19:51Okay.

Bob Lorimer 19:52And so through that, as that thing continued to grow, we had more s- people coming around, more, more places, more countries coming in. We're, now we're up to 80 countries coming in for just bodybuilding alone.

Tim Fulton 20:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 20:05But as that thing continued to emerge, Arnold said, "Look, my popularity is just massive throughout the world, and we, we ought to just take this thing because it's just got such momentum. It's a really good model."

Tim Fulton 20:17Okay.

Bob Lorimer 20:17He said, "Let's just see if we can, how this thing might go in Europe." And so we teamed up with, again, that same president who had, you know, he is from Madrid. He has all the connections. He has all the resources. He's tied in with the IOC and many other sports.

Tim Fulton 20:29Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 20:30And we said, so in 2011, we moved into Madrid. And the first year was just spectacular. I mean, we had no, there was no way to predict what, what would've happened.

Tim Fulton 20:40Right.

Bob Lorimer 20:41But we had lines that were two hours long all the way down the street, and we out, we outsold the facility the very first year.

Tim Fulton 20:46Okay.

Bob Lorimer 20:47Again in 2012, miraculously we doubled the size of the space. We filled it again. '13, filled it again.

Tim Fulton 20:54Right.

Bob Lorimer 20:54And we had to, we had to move it again. So last year we just, we ended up really, uh, outgrowing all the space we could find in Madrid, so we just moved it over to Barcelona.

Tim Fulton 21:03Okay.

Bob Lorimer 21:04And phenomenal facilities, phenomenal growth. It's a little bit more of a tourist area. M- people are more familiar with Barcelona.

Tim Fulton 21:11Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 21:11It's one of the, it's top six, you know, most tourist rated places in the world. Love for you to go 'cause it's, it's-

Tim Fulton 21:17And are those-

Bob Lorimer 21:18... it's a great facility, so

Tim Fulton 21:19... are those international events also multi-sport sort of-

Bob Lorimer 21:22They, they are. So those, so what we do is-

Tim Fulton 21:24Can I play table tennis in Barcelona?

Bob Lorimer 21:26Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 21:27Okay.

Bob Lorimer 21:27Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 21:27Good to know.

Bob Lorimer 21:28But you know, the thing is, is that, you know, each, each continent, each place, there's, there are sports that are indigenous to their culture.

Tim Fulton 21:35Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 21:36And, uh, you know, like in, in Barcelona, they have a lot of street f- games. You know, it's similar-

Tim Fulton 21:41Okay

Bob Lorimer 21:41... it's similar to our parkour-

Tim Fulton 21:43Okay

Bob Lorimer 21:44... but, but it's kind of a mix between parkour and CrossFit.

Tim Fulton 21:47Okay.

Bob Lorimer 21:48So some of the guys are very athletic, but what they can do on bars and chains and stuff is just absolutely amazing.

Tim Fulton 21:53Right. But you guys don't do, do you feel like you limit yourself in sports to just, quote-unquote, "physical sports"? Like, you guys don't do motor sports.

Bob Lorimer 22:03Well, no. We don't yet, so-

Tim Fulton 22:04Okay

Bob Lorimer 22:04... we're, we're waiting for BMX to come back at us.

Tim Fulton 22:07That's it. There you go.

Bob Lorimer 22:07Hopefully they're listening to this and they'll, they'll bring a team in. But again, no, we, we've primarily in the past we've focused on, on individual sports. We're just starting to get into more team sports.

Tim Fulton 22:18Gotcha.

Bob Lorimer 22:18They'll, lacro-

Tim Fulton 22:18Well, cheerleading came along-

Bob Lorimer 22:20... lacrosses and soccers and-

Tim Fulton 22:20... pretty early, right?

Bob Lorimer 22:21Absolutely.

Tim Fulton 22:22Okay.

Bob Lorimer 22:22Absolutely. That was on very early. But in a lot of the major team sports, so we're, we're just breaking into it. But for all the smaller events, what's really nice about what we do and our thing is, is you get a lot of sports that have high popularity.

Tim Fulton 22:34Okay.

Bob Lorimer 22:34And again, we have 14 Olympic sports that are on our weekend.

Tim Fulton 22:37Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 22:38But, and those things have a lot of, a lot of visibility. People go. There's a lot of just people. But if you, if you're a minor sport-

Tim Fulton 22:44Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 22:44... and you're trying to showcase your sport, this is the place to do it. Because again, uh, you know, m- mom and dad, they have a, you know, a boy and a girl, and one of them's participating. Well, when the other one comes down, they get to see some other sports, and they're, uh, you know, hopefully they get to try them out, and-

Tim Fulton 23:01Right

Bob Lorimer 23:01... there might create some interest for it, so.

Tim Fulton 23:03Right. You had talked about in Spain how you had moved things from, because of space concerns, had to move things from Madrid to s- Barcelona. I guess it seems appropriate then to ask now, why has the festival stayed in Columbus?

Bob Lorimer 23:16Well, again, okay, so that, so that's the, you know, something we just skipped right over, and when we were talking about the support of Columbus in general-

Tim Fulton 23:23Okay

Bob Lorimer 23:23... starting at the airport. We also, in our 76 sports and events, we, you know, we have a medical team. So in every one of those sports we have, you know, two or three medical professionals who are in those sports at all times-

Tim Fulton 23:34Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 23:35... in case there's any injury or anything else.

Tim Fulton 23:36Even in table tennis?

Bob Lorimer 23:37Even in table tennis.

Tim Fulton 23:38Great.

Bob Lorimer 23:38It doesn't matter what it was, because if somebody from, you know, somebody, they stub a toe or-

Tim Fulton 23:42Right

Bob Lorimer 23:43... you know, hit their hand on a table, whatever it might be, they get hurt, we're right there to respond.

Tim Fulton 23:47Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 23:47So we're up to almost 300, four, 300 to 400 doctors and nurses that volunteer-

Tim Fulton 23:53Okay

Bob Lorimer 23:53... their time for our, for our weekend.

Tim Fulton 23:55Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 23:55We have another, we're close to another 2,000 volunteers that come in, help support the events and, uh, whether it be, you know, ambassadors on the bus, people taking wristbands, just if you, you know, really if you're looking to just get involved in our weekend, we r- we really want you there.

Tim Fulton 24:11Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 24:11So we have just spokespeople for the, from all over the place.

Tim Fulton 24:14And we will put a link to the volunteer opportunities, at least that Experience Columbus is facilitating, in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com.

Bob Lorimer 24:24Well, thank you.

Tim Fulton 24:25Go on. You're welcome.

Bob Lorimer 24:25We, we do appreciate that, and, uh-

Tim Fulton 24:26I, I know where that link is, so.

Bob Lorimer 24:27And again, so but the nice part about it is, is if you went over to Indianapolis or, or Down to Atlanta or whatever

Tim Fulton 24:35Okay

Bob Lorimer 24:35... and you walked into hospital and say, "Hey, can I have, you know, one doctor-

Tim Fulton 24:39Right

Bob Lorimer 24:39... volunteer his time?" They would kinda laugh you out of the city.

Tim Fulton 24:42And is it through partnership with OSU or, or, or a lot of the hospitals?

Bob Lorimer 24:45Well, again, again, a lot of the hospitals, so we don't, we don't disseminate. Again, you know, they all work very well with us.

Tim Fulton 24:51Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 24:51We're very happy to have, you know, any, any and all of them come in and help and, and be, you know, help on our weekend in any way that they like.

Tim Fulton 24:59Well, of course.

Bob Lorimer 24:59But so really the reason why this can't move is because there's just too much support in Columbus.

Tim Fulton 25:04Okay.

Bob Lorimer 25:04And the other thing is Columbus doesn't want us to move. I mean, last year we brought in, we, we brought in just through visitor tourism $54 million into the city.

Tim Fulton 25:12Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 25:12And so there's no place that you can really move this event to that you get that much city support and everything else.

Tim Fulton 25:18Absolutely.

Bob Lorimer 25:18So even though we've outgrown the city, we, we're, this is home for us.

Tim Fulton 25:22Yeah. And I will say as a resident of the Short North, just maybe three blocks north of the Convention Center, while it is a little bit inconvenient that weekend, I'm willing to put up with it, so... And I think that all the restaurants that have to overstock the chicken breasts that they keep in stock for that weekend- ... uh, they'll put up with it as well, so.

Bob Lorimer 25:42That's right. That's right, so.

Tim Fulton 25:43So you guys made sort of a big splash three years ago at this point by putting in pole fitness, which, you know, the casual observer may refer to as pole dancing. You guys still do feature it prominently on your press materials and website and stuff, which is great. It's a cool event to check out. Talk about the other things that are either new this year or new in the past couple of years that people may not be aware of.

Bob Lorimer 26:05Yeah. Well, l- let me start off with pole fitness if I could, 'cause we first-

Tim Fulton 26:08Sure

Bob Lorimer 26:08... we first saw it in, in Madrid, Spain.

Tim Fulton 26:11Oh, okay.

Bob Lorimer 26:11And they were having competitions there and... But we were fascinated with the physicality of the men and women that were participating in the sport.

Tim Fulton 26:19Okay.

Bob Lorimer 26:20I mean, I mean, it's a lot to just climb up on a-

Tim Fulton 26:22Now let me ask you, culturally, its origins are the same there?

Bob Lorimer 26:26Yes, absolutely.

Tim Fulton 26:27Okay. Okay.

Bob Lorimer 26:27Absolutely. But, um, and again, it, it really has become an emerging sport.

Tim Fulton 26:32Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 26:32And why I say it's a sport, because it's extremely physical to do.

Tim Fulton 26:36Absolutely.

Bob Lorimer 26:36And, and there's a, a lot of creativity that has to go into the routines-

Tim Fulton 26:40Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 26:40... the costumes and hair, makeup, and everything that's goes along with it.

Tim Fulton 26:44Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 26:45But I tell you, if you just try and climb anything, a rope or a pole, without using your feet and you go up just with two hands, it's extremely difficult.

Tim Fulton 26:52Absolutely.

Bob Lorimer 26:52Now go into a flag pole or go upside down and hang from one hand or hang from a leg-

Tim Fulton 26:57Right

Bob Lorimer 26:57... that's an amazing feat in itself. So-

Tim Fulton 26:59Right

Bob Lorimer 26:59... so what's happening now is, is now you're, you're finding more and more people that are starting to go into the sport, but as they do, the routines are getting harder. The costumes are getting better. This last year, again, some of the, some countries are larger than in others, but this last year in Brazil we had almost 400 competitors.

Tim Fulton 27:17Really?

Bob Lorimer 27:17It lasted four days to get through the 400 competitors, 'cause the routines are anywhere from three to five minutes, and then there's, you know, it's a, it's a draw down to who, who wins the overall competition, so.

Tim Fulton 27:27And it is similar to gymnastics in that it's scored by a panel of people based on style, physicality-

Bob Lorimer 27:34Correct

Tim Fulton 27:34... you know? Okay.

Bob Lorimer 27:35Correct. Presentation-

Tim Fulton 27:36Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 27:36... the wh- the whole nine yards goes into that. So that's how we just kinda found that. But in each particular sport we have a ch- the chairperson that's in it, you know, is really responsible for run- running the event.

Tim Fulton 27:46Okay.

Bob Lorimer 27:46How we primarily work with our people, and again, the people that come up through us, is we give them the space.

Tim Fulton 27:54Okay.

Bob Lorimer 27:54So for instance, if you're just running a pole competition, you typically have to go out and rent the facilities and put up all your lights and the sound and the stage and everything else.

Tim Fulton 28:01Right.

Bob Lorimer 28:01We provide that for them.

Tim Fulton 28:03Okay.

Bob Lorimer 28:03And because what we're trying to do is... And then what we do in exchange of that is then we get the gate from every, from the people that come in to spec- to watch-

Tim Fulton 28:10The ticket buyers

Bob Lorimer 28:11... to watch their sport.

Tim Fulton 28:12Right.

Bob Lorimer 28:13They get, you know, they get all their own sponsorships. They get their people that enter the show.

Tim Fulton 28:17Their registration fees.

Bob Lorimer 28:18And so it's, it's a really win-win situation-

Tim Fulton 28:20Okay

Bob Lorimer 28:20... for both, for both parties.

Tim Fulton 28:21Okay.

Bob Lorimer 28:22And so, but again, a man participating in martial arts or boxing or whatever it might be-

Tim Fulton 28:27Right

Bob Lorimer 28:27... and his wife comes in to watch him and she sees this and she goes, "Wow, I wanna take a class."

Tim Fulton 28:31Right.

Bob Lorimer 28:32And, and from that standpoint, we have all the local people around that are promoting their, their sports and their events or whatever it might be so that, you know, there's opportunity for them to partic- participate in, in whatever their culture or sport might be.

Tim Fulton 28:45Yeah.

Bob Lorimer 28:46We're not just sports oriented, and I think we need to come back to that because-

Tim Fulton 28:50Okay

Bob Lorimer 28:50... we're also mind and creative. We have art at the Arnold.

Tim Fulton 28:53Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 28:53We have 50 professionals that come in and they paint something. What we typically do is, so we give them three or four different, uh, sport people to paint. So there might be a person, martial arts, a person with, you know, a table tennis racket in their hand or something, and then tho- those artists then have, you know, the 24 hours to paint that picture.

Tim Fulton 29:14So it's a live painting event.

Bob Lorimer 29:15There's a live painting event.

Tim Fulton 29:15People come, come around, see it.

Bob Lorimer 29:17And, um, you know, we added chess in a few years ago.

Tim Fulton 29:19Okay.

Bob Lorimer 29:20Chess is getting very popular, and so we have a major competition in chess. So there's a multitude of just sports, mind games and s- things, you know. We hope to add more, more mind things, puzzles or whatever it might be in the future, so.

Tim Fulton 29:32I mean, you guys aren't doing, like, card games and role playing games?

Bob Lorimer 29:35No, but that's a good idea.

Tim Fulton 29:37Okay. There-

Bob Lorimer 29:37Love to get into the gaming aspect. That's where-

Tim Fulton 29:39There's a whole nother convention in Columbus for it. What else is new this year?

Bob Lorimer 29:45Well, again, we, w- this year we have some great new sports coming out at us again. We have a lot of strength sports. We're a little bit strength geared. Every, any major strength sport in the world is already here on a weekend.

Tim Fulton 29:57Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 29:57But this year we're adding indoor Scottish Highland Games.

Tim Fulton 30:00Okay.

Bob Lorimer 30:01And these guys are s-

Tim Fulton 30:02This is track and field in a kilt

Bob Lorimer 30:04... basically. But I tell you what, they're awful strong.

Tim Fulton 30:07Right.

Bob Lorimer 30:07So, you know, one of the, one of the things that they do, and I think you've seen them before on television or whatever, that where the guys throw the pole.

Tim Fulton 30:15Right.

Bob Lorimer 30:15And, uh, you know, they, they actually grab a telephone pole, but a lot of people don't know how that thing's judged.

Tim Fulton 30:21Okay.

Bob Lorimer 30:21And the way that thing is judged is that they have to, they have to balance it in their hands, throw it in the air-

Tim Fulton 30:27Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 30:29So they turn it over a 90-degree revolution, but w- the way it's really judged is by the distance that it's thrown-

Tim Fulton 30:35Okay

Bob Lorimer 30:36... and how perpendicular it lands to a 12 o'clock position.

Tim Fulton 30:40Okay.

Bob Lorimer 30:41So-

Tim Fulton 30:41There you go

Bob Lorimer 30:41... if it's, if it's straight up and down in a 6 to 12 in a five-foot out pull-

Tim Fulton 30:47Yeah

Bob Lorimer 30:47... they're likely to win that event.

Tim Fulton 30:49Okay.

Bob Lorimer 30:49So.

Tim Fulton 30:49Okay.

Bob Lorimer 30:50A lot of people don't know that.

Tim Fulton 30:51Where do you hold that? Is that at the fairgrounds?

Bob Lorimer 30:53No, that, we're holding it indoors this year, so it'll also be in the convention center.

Tim Fulton 30:57All right.

Bob Lorimer 30:58So it's, uh, something really good to look at.

Tim Fulton 31:00Get nervous about the lights getting knocked down in there?

Bob Lorimer 31:03Well, yeah, you know, but the, a pole's pretty heavy, so you can only really throw it so far in the air.

Tim Fulton 31:08Well, and you guys are paying your rent, so.

Bob Lorimer 31:10This year we're also having a y- y- yoga, but yoga as a competition.

Tim Fulton 31:15Okay.

Bob Lorimer 31:15And so it's another unique thing, though. You know, everybody's familiar with yoga class and being able to stretch and bend, but what, now what they're doing is they're creating some stretches and bends that you have to hold in a, you know, a still position for a set amount of time.

Tim Fulton 31:28Right. And also, I imagine, judged on presentation.

Bob Lorimer 31:32Judged on the presentation, hold-

Tim Fulton 31:34Yeah

Bob Lorimer 31:34... um, you know, h- how flexible you are, how m- a, you know. That's an amazing event. We're really looking forward to see how that goes.

Tim Fulton 31:41Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 31:42We're adding lacrosse up at the coliseum.

Tim Fulton 31:44Okay.

Bob Lorimer 31:45And lacrosse is another really emerging sport. We're really looking forward to seeing, seeing that, 'cause, you know, certainly great kids sport.

Tim Fulton 31:52Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 31:52We've added disabled power lifting, so we have a lot of, a lot of people that are coming in through that. Transformation challenge, that's a, that's another one that's n- new to us, but, and what the transformation challenge is, is people can enter in. You know, they show before and after photos, and they come in.

Tim Fulton 32:09Really?

Bob Lorimer 32:09There's, there's a cash prize that comes back up for that.

Tim Fulton 32:11Okay.

Bob Lorimer 32:11And we try to handle, handle that on a yearly basis. We're trying to add in a lot of educational programs, continuing education for just-

Tim Fulton 32:19Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 32:19... whether it be in science, sports, or whatever it might be. You know, it could be posing routines or-

Tim Fulton 32:24Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 32:24... how, what to eat. You know, that's another one that we're real looking forward to seeing take off in the future as well.

Tim Fulton 32:30Great. In the times that I've been at the festival, again, just sort of going to the, the fitness expo in the larger hall there, I have had the pleasure to see Arnold Schwarzenegger walking around. Can we expect that again this year?

Bob Lorimer 32:43Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 32:44Great.

Bob Lorimer 32:45And absolutely. But you know what? Arnold said to us in the very beginning, we were really concerned when we started to expand into other continents, because we said, "You know, look, Arnold, you know, uh, we c- we can build-"

Tim Fulton 32:56You're a busy guy

Bob Lorimer 32:56... "We can build this. You're a busy guy."

Tim Fulton 32:57Right.

Bob Lorimer 32:58And he's, and he, and he, you know, he, his point is, "If you build it, I'll c- I'll come."

Tim Fulton 33:02Great. He is the field of dreams.

Bob Lorimer 33:05And he really is. He's never missed an event in the 40 years, and-

Tim Fulton 33:09Really?

Bob Lorimer 33:09... and all the other competitions that we have worldwide. He's always in. He's always on. Couple years ago, he showed up into, he, you know, he was out doing his book tour, and when he was doing his book tour, you know, shaking hands with everybody-

Tim Fulton 33:19Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 33:19... and he started to get a really bad cold.

Tim Fulton 33:21Okay.

Bob Lorimer 33:22And he came in hacking and coughing, but boy, he, he didn't miss a single event.

Tim Fulton 33:26Well, and I remember, I think actually the one time that I physically shook his hand, he personally having a pretty difficult time, and yet still shows up and i- is gracious and super positive. And frankly, this year is sort of gonna be another one of those years in a very different way, given the public disputes that he's- ... you know, i- entwined with-

Bob Lorimer 33:49Yeah

Tim Fulton 33:49... in our political climate, so.

Bob Lorimer 33:51Yeah. Well, again, you know-

Tim Fulton 33:54Have you guys-

Bob Lorimer 33:54... Ar- Arnold's an amazing man. I mean, there's no, there's no, no two ways about it, because he, he, he, he visits all realms of the world.

Tim Fulton 34:01Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 34:01I mean, whether it be movies or politics or sports in general-

Tim Fulton 34:04Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 34:05... he's there, and he's just b- he's unbelievable at whatever he touches. And so the fact that he continues to come in here for this, he comes t- continues to come in and promote sports in general, s- pro- promote teen and sport youth movements, uh, is absolutely amazing for us, so.

Tim Fulton 34:20So it goes without saying he's pretty good to work with.

Bob Lorimer 34:23He's, he's, he's a gem of a partner, but, you know, he's also one of the most recognizable people on the planet.

Tim Fulton 34:29Absol- and that has-

Bob Lorimer 34:30And

Tim Fulton 34:30... very little to do with his size, of course.

Bob Lorimer 34:32Well, yeah, but, you know, it's really funny, because if you just were, if you were in Illinois or just someplace and you saw him at a, at a restaurant-

Tim Fulton 34:39Mm-hmm

Bob Lorimer 34:40... you know, it's unique, because everybody, you know, they kinda just stare at him a lot, and then, you know, there's few people that go up and wanna get his autograph.

Tim Fulton 34:45Mm-hmm.

Bob Lorimer 34:46In this particular case, we have up to 200,000 people on the weekend that are all avid fans of him.

Tim Fulton 34:51Right. They all came for him, right.

Bob Lorimer 34:52They came for him, so when, when, you know, it's a c- it's a complete real experience to be around him.

Tim Fulton 34:58Yeah. When I saw him, he certainly did have some handlers sort of guiding him through the-

Bob Lorimer 35:02Yeah Ab- absolutely

Tim Fulton 35:03... through the floor. You know, last thing. Have you, have you guys considered having a show match between Arnold Schwarzenegger and Donald Trump? You know. There is boxing, right?

Bob Lorimer 35:12Well, there is. I, you know, I don't think Trump would take him up on that, 'cause Arnold would pretty much beat him in whatever Trump would take him on to, so.

Tim Fulton 35:20All right.

Bob Lorimer 35:20You know, Arnold is an amazing man, I think.

Tim Fulton 35:21We'll see about that in, you know, four years or so. Bob, thank you so much for coming in. Again, you can check out the Arnold Sports Festival primarily downtown at the convention center and then also at the fairgrounds March 2nd through 5th. Bob, thank you so much for your time.

Bob Lorimer 35:36Thank you very much. Appreciate it, Tim. Thank you.

Tim Fulton 35:45Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite bodybuilder. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.