Steiner & Associates
Are land use and development a civic responsibility or just a monetary transaction? Yaromir Steiner, the Founder, Chief Executive Officer of Steiner + Associates has an opinion. He sat down with Columbus Underground’s urban development staff contributor Brett Warren to talk in-depth about that, the importance of density in Columbus, and the future of everything from Downtown to Easton.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we have an interview between Columbus Underground's urban development staff contributor Brett Warren and Yarimer Steiner, the founder, chief executive officer of Steiner and Associates, better known as the company behind Easton. They talk in depth about development as a civic responsibility, the importance of density and how to define it, the virtue of collective action, how developers can best advocate for their work through consensus, and the future of things like transportation, retail, downtown, and Easton. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. Enjoy the interview. But, uh, my goal is to make Columbus a better place. So I mean, the only reason I'm sitting with you is that I hope that will contribute to that, you know? Of course, yeah. Mm-hmm. So I mean, I'm not interested in controversial-
Yeah ... you know, comment just for the sake of, you know, creating waves. Right. You know what I mean? It just-
Right, right, right. Great. Yarimer Steiner, founder and cn-- CEO of Steiner and Associates. Um, I'd like to thank you for talking with us today. I really appreciate it. I wondered if you would be willing to start just a little bit with, uh, give us kinda the CliffsNotes version of your background and where you grew up and how you ended up in, in Columbus. I was born in Istanbul. Mm. And, uh, I finished high school in Istanbul, Turkey. Uh, went to college in France. Um, I have a couple degrees in engineering and business, uh, from University of Toulouse, South of France. Served in the French military. I was in the Airborne. And, uh, came to the United States in 1980 to start the American affiliate of a French company.
Mm-hmm. Houston, Texas. I was 28 years old with my two young kids. And then, uh, I lived in Texas. Uh, I lived in Manhattan. I lived in, uh, Miami, Florida, and then in Columbus, Ohio. Mm-hmm. So Houston, Manhattan, Miami, Columbus.
Yeah. And that's now... I mean, Columbus is the city where I have lived longest. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. So now that's home.
I know in Columbus the main thing people identify you with is Easton, of course. Um, and I do wanna ask you a little more specifically about that development a little later on. But I know I've been following the work you've been doing with Urban Land Institute, MORPC, with their In-Inside 2050, and then with the regional corridors. So I'd be interested to hear how you got interested in those initiatives and if you could give us sort of a, a brief update on, on where those stand now. In general, this is all, uh, aligned, uh, with, uh, our vision of the world. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, you know, there are two kind of real estate developers. Um, you know, I jokingly, uh... Y-You know, uh, you can get a degree in real estate development, uh, both in, uh, University of UPenn, uh, at, uh, University of Pennsylvania at Wharton, or you can get it also at, uh, Harvard. And at U-UPenn, uh, the School of Real Estate is, uh, in the, in Wharton, in the School of Business.
Mm-hmm. Uh, at Harvard, the School of Real Estate is at the GCD, Graduate School of Design, GSD. Mm-hmm. School of Architecture. So it's interesting. Both are forming developers who, you know, have obviously an understanding of, uh, design and construction as well as finance, but Wharton sees that as a business-
Mm-hmm ... as a financial transaction with brick and mortar, whereas Harvard sees it as a, you know, a, you know, placemaking transaction with financial overtones. We buy into the Harvard approach. Mm-hmm. That is, we believe that, uh, development is a civic responsibility-
Mm-hmm ... like an architect, and, uh, and obviously it has a financial approach to it. So what happens is, uh, my company, uh, everything I've ever done has always been to try to maximize the impact in the community and, and then obviously with financial record keeping as you are- Mm-hmm ... if you are to survive. So, uh, for us, uh, ULI i-is an extension of that way of approaching, you know, real estate. Uh, Urban Land Institute, I mean, my company, my son was instrumental in creating the, the, the chapter in Columbus, the council, 10 years ago. And, um, and ULI's mission is, uh, to see how leadership in land use knowledge can contribute to the, you know, to the prosperity of, of, of a region. And the, the purpose of ULI Columbus that we've rewritten specifically this year was that how our leadership in un- uh, in real estate, in development, in planning, uh, could be used to enhance the well-being and the prosperity of central Ohio. And for well-being, um, which could be an, a word for happiness, you know, how can we use what we know about real estate to increase the happiness of the region, uh, we use Gallup's definition of well-being. You know?
Okay. Gallup has a scientific approach to well-being, which would, by the way, a great subject, you know, for you to study- Mm-hmm ... and cover. Uh, they've identified a way to measure wellbeing or happiness across all the nations on, in the, in the, in the world, and across all the states in the nation, and city by city.
Mm-hmm. And they have about multiple five pillars, and all of them are impacted by intelligent land use policies. Mm-hmm. So basically, my work at ULI is to see how we can use our knowledge of development and, uh, land use to contribute, you know, to the wellbeing of central Ohio-
Mm-hmm ... other than just being a developer building shopping centers. Right. Um, how do you... How have you found the reception to those kind of, kind of ideas in Columbus? Like over... You said ULI chapter here was established about 10 years ago. Yes.
Um, have things changed in that time? Was it initially were people receptive to that, or...? Uh, uh, a- actually, it was double... I mean, e- everybody was very receptive to it. Mm. But that focus, uh, you know, any new organization, uh, the first few years just tries to survive.
Mm-hmm. You know, just to establish itself. And, and I've been lucky. Uh, there's a Latin saying about we giants, you know, rest on... I mean, "We dwarfs rest on the shoulder of giants." That's the people before us, you know, build the foundation of this. Mm-hmm. And I'm coming now and try to-
Mm-hmm ... you know, move it f- further. So at the beginning, it's not fair to compare, you know. Mm-hmm. A, a council starting with 60 people, you know.
Yeah. Today we are 300. Yeah. And, uh, but Columbus was a perfect place because Columbus has a long tradition of public/private cooperation.
Mm-hmm. That is, we have... I mean, that Columbus way, who is- Mm-hmm ... taught at Harvard, I mean, is basically, uh, you know, public and private working together to further basically goals, uh, for the community. So in that sense, you know, it worked very well. And then the, the second reason, and so, I mean, so you find a group of, for example, developer, architects, I mean, all those principals in the community, when you ask the, to look at their work in light of the wellbeing of the region, that's not a unusual conversation with them.
Mm-hmm. I mean, that's the way we think in Columbus. Mm-hmm. Okay, how can I make a difference? And then the second part of it is the changing times.
Mm-hmm. I mean, the, the millennial generation and the g- coming Gen Z generation, uh, for historical reasons, which we can get into, but, uh, are more interested in meaningful work. I mean, they are basically, they want that what they do has, makes a difference- Mm-hmm ... uh, in, in, in the world, in the universe. So, you know, when, you know, we appeal to the younger generation of people who work for architects, who work actually for the cities, who work for developers, I mean, uh, engineering firms and so forth, and we show them that their knowledge can be put to work, you know-
Mm-hmm ... to make a region a better place, that resonates extremely well with that generation. Mm-hmm. So between the way Columbus thinks and then between the upcoming young generations, I think, uh, ULI found a very fertile ground-
Mm-hmm ... you know, in Columbus. Yeah, yeah. Um, and the Insight 2050, um, study specifically, my understanding of that is, um, it's looking at the coming growth in Columbus, which is gonna continue. It's also looking at the changing market, where there's gonna be more of a, uh, more of a market for denser development, both from empty nesters and young people. Um, and it's sort of laying things out like, "This is what the region will look like if we continue to sprawl outward, and this is what could happen if we build a little denser." Um- The, the point of 2050 was to build a planning consensus in Columbus.
Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, Ohio is a home rule state. That means that we do not have central planning, uh, or land planning organizations who, who can impose their wills on large swaths of land. Mm-hmm. You know, the biggest jurisdictions, who are counties, have zero zoning power.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, and, uh, and central Ohio has over, I don't know, 60 or 80 jurisdictions determining what they do. So any effort to try to coordinate all this was not going to work that way. So where we, uh, found a, an interesting angle, because, uh, some resources we discovered in the country available to us to make that analysis, was the good question people like, first we wanted to make sure... I mean, the goal was to communicate to our community that we are growing. This is not as obvious, you know. Mm. Columbus has always had that reputation of cow town. You know, we don't take ourselves seriously. There's that modesty of the Midwest-
Mm-hmm ... you know, that we all have, and, uh, and Ohio has. And that strong modesty makes that sometime you miss, you know, the big picture. Mm-hmm. And, and, and-
Even the people who are living here. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. Very much living here.
Right. Mm-hmm. I mean, I, I'm going to quote numbers. I don't know how many people even realize the numbers I'm gonna quote now, but, uh, between 2010 and 2017, you know, over seven years, uh, Ohio, with all of our nine million people, we added 110,000 residents. Mm. So Ohio was nine million French. And some, I'm sorry using French words here. Uh, we are 9,000 and some... Uh, nine million and some, and we added 110,000 people over seven years. Central Ohio, with our two million people, we added 170,000 people.
Wow. Yes. Okay? Yeah. So two million people added 170,000.
Uh-huh. The whole state added 110. Yeah. So you have to also understand that there's a math here.
Mm-hmm. So not only we are growing, we are bringing in from the rest of the state. Right. So understanding that's a significant growth.
Mm-hmm. I mean, significant growth, and, and it's happening nowhere else in Ohio. Mm-hmm. I mean, as a metropolitan area. It happening in pockets of Ohio-
Mm-hmm ... but not as a global. So communicate that was important. Mm-hmm. We don't want to confuse ourselves with Austin, Texas, Nashville, and so forth. Our growth is still maybe half the speed.
Mm-hmm. But we don't want also to think of s- of ourselves as a sleepy, you know, Midwestern town- Mm ... because then that growth will be out of control. The second thing was then we look at those number demographically, and it's not wishful thinking. It's not Chamber of Commerce trying to say we are bringing jobs. This is just people giving birth, people- ... coming in, going out. I mean, it's almost mathematical.
Mm. You know? Like the present unemployment in the nation who is down to 4% has nothing to do with really politics or economy. It has to with demographics. I mean- Mm ... 10 years ago, there were papers saying that we are entering that period where more people that are retiring that there are people entering the workforce. Obviously, unemployment was gonna go down.
Mm-hmm. So it was the time to actually encourage immigration to balance that, but which we are doing exactly the opposite. Right. I mean, it's totally nonsensical. So Columbus is growing, so that was first thing to say.
Mm-hmm. And the numbers are predictable. That is, we know that between now and 2040, 2050, we are gonna add, uh, the range varies, but 800 to a million people. Mm-hmm. The question that resonates with people when you ask the question, where do you think we should put that million people?
Mm-hmm. That people, that question resonates even people who are not in land use business. Right. They can relate that we are talking about 40 to 50% of the exact population we have.
Right, right. And where we put them. Then the question you ask them, do you want to something to say about where they go? Mm-hmm. Or do they want them to go wherever developers put them?
Yeah. I mean, and the reaction's unanimous. Yeah. There is no left, there's no right on this.
Yeah. People say, "Well, you know, I, I have an opinion about how we should be going about this." Yeah, and you don't have to be a- Yeah
... city planner to You don't need to. Right. So that what's happened is these two first things, that we are growing, and now I think in the vocabulary of the city, I mean, I think we preach that enough-
Mm-hmm ... so people know. And ULI was very instrumental because when those number became available, I mean, when we, 2050 was over, we created training teams who went out and spoke at mayor breakfast, at Rotary Clubs- Mm-hmm ... at the retirement homes. I mean, we did over 140 presentations to little groups of 10, to big groups of 200.
Mm. I mean, that message was repeated over and over again. So now I think it's in the subconscious of our region that we are growing- Mm ... and we have to be intelligent about where we are putting people. So what 2050 did is basically said, "Okay, now let's create s- scenarios and measure their consequences."
Mm-hmm. An easy scenario was replicate the past. The same place we put the last 800,000 people, the same way let's put the next 800. Mm-hmm. And then this, there are four scenarios, and the more... So the top scenarios use it, uh, maybe 350 square miles of additional land. And then the, the least, uh, you know, most dense scenario use 15 square miles of, of new land.
Mm-hmm. So there are four scenarios, and we look at all of them. And, uh, I mean, today the city c- uh, it cannot, will not replicate the past experience. Mm-hmm. Because our zoning books already are denser than the past.
Mm-hmm. So we are careful about that. But anyway, it showed that in all eight areas that we measured, whether it's, uh, you know, energy consumption, uh, time driven, uh, you know, air quality, which is, is it direct correlation with, um, you know, upper respiratory illnesses, um, the taxes you pay for maintenance of the infrastructure, and I mean, all those metrics, we have eight of them. Mm-hmm. All of them were more favorable to the, you know, to the denser version of the, of the region.
Mm-hmm. And that document and that effort was not political because we'd not go to anyone. We'd not say we are putting them in your neighborhood or your neighborhood. Right. It was like global numbers.
Right. Global number- Right ... density pays. And that was hugely important because that we know we are a growing region, and we know density helps.
Mm-hmm. By the way, the definition of density in that document is six units per acre. Okay. These are not skyscrapers. This is not-
Yeah. This is not, you know, New York density. Right, right. You know? I mean, it's, it's dense like maybe German Village and et cetera.
Mm-hmm. So that is what's considered dense. Yeah. And not all of city was dense, but that was dense.
Right. And then what was interesting when we did that, uh, report is that for the first time, um, that report appealed to everyone. 'Cause I, uh, sometime joke and I say, in the past the conversation about planning was about the guy who lives in, uh, you know, uh, Lancaster, uh, who says, "I want five acres, septic systems. I will drill my own well. Leave me alone." And then the counterpoint is the guy who lives in the Short North who wants Starbucks or N- or North Star under their condo, and you know, they want to live in an urban setting. Yeah. And each defending the other why they would prefer one lifestyle versus another, and you know, essentially using arguments who are qualitative, I mean, you know-
Mm-hmm ... what resonates with a millennial- And they're personal ... might not resonate with the other person.
Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So there was this polarized conversation. Mm-hmm. Our report cut that conversation-
Mm ... and said, you don't need to be dense, but denser areas- Mm-hmm ... is cheaper.
Yeah. Is better in the air, you have more time with your kids because you don't commute as long, use less energy. Mm-hmm. I mean, everything works.
Yeah. Now you live anywhere you want. So for the first time, we saw counties like Fairfield, Licking, et cetera, coming to us and saying, "Hmm, maybe downtown Newark, you know, can we densify?" You know, downtown Lancaster, can we create some lofts? I mean, because there are some people now... I mean, people become aware that some people like density- Mm-hmm ... and accommodating them was not contradictory.
Right. So I mean, that's a long answer to- Yeah. ... you asked me short questions.
Yes. I speak a lot, but, you know. No, I appreciate you, uh, taking us through kind of the history of that, 'cause it's really interesting. 'Cause I've seen, um, I think as a result of the work that, that your group has been doing, and MORPC and others, the conversation has definitely moved, and I see a lot of acceptance of the big ideas, you know. Right.
And but my, my main question for you, though, um, 'cause I write about specific developments that are, um, proposed for specific places, and I feel like when you see some of these, you see reactions against them- ... that are really direct. Like, you know, for instance, we don't have to talk about this specific project, but the Worthington- But Brett, we are working on his project, for example, right now. You're right, Brett Kaufman Brett Kaufman and the Short North. Yeah ... we tap on this project, Short North
... that's a perfect example. So Or the challenge that the Leasentis has with, uh, Worthington, for example. Yeah Yes, exactly. Like these, yeah, these are my two examples I was gonna bring up. Yeah.
So how, uh, my question is when the rubber hits the road and you have some of these projects that really kind of fit perfectly into what you're talking about and would help to build some of the density in exactly the places you wanna build it, but then, you know, the, the neighbors don't like it, or they can't get approval, or the city doesn't approve it, um, moving forward, do you think this is gonna be an issue, or do you think we're gonna actually kind of move past this and these projects are gonna get built? First, I would like to say something 'cause you mentioned something and I want to make sure I, I mean, I don't correct but add to what you said. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, ULI has been a leader in those efforts, but clearly that would not have been possible without the cooperation of MORPC-
Sure. Yeah ... of COTA, of the Development Department of City of Columbus. Mm-hmm. And frankly, I mean, many people from Westerville to the mayor of Grove City, I mean-
Mm-hmm ... lots of people are involved in this effort. Mm-hmm. So I mean, you know, I mean we helped them initiate, but I mean-
Sure ... it's not, it's not a, clearly it's not a Jarmir Steiner effort- Sure ... but it's not a ULI effort alone either.
Mm-hmm. And that's where ULI does the best. You know, we are above the fray. Mm-hmm. We have people from all walks of life, from city managers to architects to developer to planners to everybody's in it. So we don't have any agenda. We are not develop, de- defending apartments. We are not developing-
Mm-hmm ... industrial buildings or shopping centers. You know, we are saying, "How can you make Columbus a better place?" So I mean, that's as a little correction so that, you know- Sure. Yeah. Of course ... as we present our efforts, it doesn't become just ULI. Um, then well, the first thing is, in everything we do, we have done in the past and going forward, you need to shape the conversation. That's the first thing you need to do.
Mm-hmm. You know, could we have told you as a intellectual with a French accent, you know, and getting a few other guys from the university to convince everyone that density was going to work better and that was the future? I would say that if you had taken a survey, probably 80% of us would have guessed that was gonna be the outcome. But there's a big difference between coming and saying it and imposing your- Mm-hmm ... opinion or your wisdom, uh, et cetera, than to come to the conclusion, you know, from the ground up-
Mm-hmm ... and sharing the information in an objective way. That's a huge difference. Mm-hmm. Um, so I mean, that was very important, you know, because I mean, I can go even one step beyond that maybe, I don't know if you know, you were involved in it when ULI Columbus did the Columbus 2050 study, which had nothing to do with Inside 2050, which was about what is the city of tomorrow.
Mm-hmm. And we, it was a two-year effort. We, we had a little grant to play with. Yeah. And we get thou- hundreds and probably thousands of people together over the term of this to come with the, "Here is the report for the future of Columbus."
Mm-hmm. I was in a, uh, in the s- Second World Forum of ULI in London, you know, with Prince Charles was there and others, where we are discussing the city of tomorrow. You know, I mean like three years before that. And the conclusions of the city of tomorrow were 95% the same as the- Mm-hmm ... city of tomorrow Columbus reached.
Mm-hmm. But we could have just printed, changed, you know- ... the city with Columbus and it would have been the same thing, but it's not the same thing. Right. Right. So you need to build that consensus. So going forward, we need to do the same thing. So what are we doing? I'm not going to find a solution, you know, for Worthington or for Brett's project, you know, on, uh, High Street. But what are the things that are, we are doing right now? So the next it's now is the corridor study.
Mm-hmm. Because everybody's... There is some kind of a consensus that densification should go with some kind of a, uh, im- enhanced mobility corridors. Mm-hmm. I'm using carefully, I'm choosing my words.
Yes. Enhanced mobility corridors, because then those corridors, because, uh, if you want the transportation cost and housing cost are in agglom- You need to add them together when you are looking at anything. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I mean, you can live without a car in certain environments, which then you can spend more on your housing, or you can, you know, spend less on your housing and spend much more on your cars.
Mm-hmm. And those choices do not have the same impact on the collective happiness. Right. You know, we know that, uh, economic prosperity, density helps. You know, uh, environmental densities help. So there is reasons for that. So, so we knew that enhanced mobility corridors are an important thing. So we went to COTA in the city of Columbus. I mean, again, another example of ULI's intervention, both of them, one hit the next gen, one was something else. We were looking to the future mobility of Columbus.
Yeah, Connect Columbus. Uh, yeah. Both of them Connect Columbus. Mm-hmm. Both of them were using the same California consultant. But two different teams conducting two different studies-
Yeah ... running parallel without talking to each other. So we, I think, helped eliminate that, and finally, after a long time, get them to agree on five sample corridors- Yeah ... not all corridors. And then we said, "Let's do a similar study on those five corridors." That is to see if we coordinate zoning requirements, public incentives-
Mm-hmm ... uh, and, and some kind of a increased mobility, and can we increase the density on those corridors? And if you can increase them, you know, what kind of consequences does it have? Mm-hmm. And can we do it in a way, for example, with dealing about housing issues as well? You know, the affordable housing issues.
Mm-hmm. Part of the package, the way you get your incentives, the way you get your entitlements and so forth, you have to look at it comprehensively. We said, "So take these corridors." We have 50 miles of corridors. They are one mile wide, so they go half a mile each side of the corridor. And then see how many people we can put on them if we dream about the future. I mean, this work is under progress right now. Mm-hmm. And, and we already identified that of if we had a million people coming here the next 50 years, we can easily take 30 to 60% of that growth in those five corridors.
Mm. Mm-hmm. And I'm saying 30 to 60, even if you take 30, which are very low densities- Mm-hmm ... and Columbus has more corridors. So before even going taking green fields and farms and everything else, we can just start building more density in town.
Mm-hmm. And then what we are doing is we are comparing that density of putting the same number of people, say 250,000 people on those corridors, putting them in Pickerington, Delaware, Licking County, wherever we want to put them- Mm-hmm ... and compare the models.
Mm-hmm. But now we have 10 variables. Mm-hmm. We have not only this, we also have taxes and other things. So we are looking at air quality, taxes, time driven energy consumption, water consumption. I mean, you know, upper-
Mm-hmm ... respiratory illnesses, all those variable, and see which one works better. And, uh, I hope, not I hope, I mean, uh, actually I have no hopes, but I believe that the corridors are going to be a more responsible use of, uh, land- Mm-hmm ... and it will be a more responsible fiscally-
Mm-hmm ... uh, sustainable model, uh, et cetera. I mean, that is the kind of environment you want to leave to your kids. You know? Mm-hmm. They have to pay less taxes, the air is cleaner, you know, and they, they commute less, spend more time with their families. I mean, that kind of stuff.
Mm-hmm. So if that happens, then ULI is gonna get into the thing and working with MORPC's resources, and now we are more intelligent, where last time we did that off the seat of our pants. We'll do a massive communication effort again. Okay. So we will tell everyone, "Look, you know, and we can do whatever we want. Nobody has to do anything." But those corridors go-
Mm-hmm ... through the city of Columbus, uh, eight other municipalities- Mm-hmm ... through townships, non-incorporated areas, and they go throughout the place.
Mm-hmm. So you cannot... There's not a person we can speak with. I mean, there's a bunch of people we need to talk with. Right, right. But we'll tell them, "You do what you want, but here's what you dis- what we are discovering."
Mm. "So what do you want to do?" Right. You know? And that next conversation. And then part of that conversation is what means enhanced mobility corridor?
Mm-hmm. What do you do in those corridors? And, uh, and we are about to initiate that conversation as well. Okay. Because there-
And just to be clear, you're talking about this is the transportation realm. Yes. You're talking about transit or something something to move people better. Yeah, move people better.
Yeah. Right. I mean- Yeah ... it can be bicycle paths.
Yeah, yeah. It can be, uh, you know, it can be walking carpets. It can be- ... underground, uh, tubes- Yes ... you know, where Elon Musk fires bullets.
Right . You know? And but it can be light rail, it can be trolleys, you know. Yeah. It can be, uh... But also it can be a swarm of, uh, you know, mini, uh, smarts, you know-
Yeah ... autonomously controlled. Autonomous, yeah. Yeah. You know. And so there's, there's all kind of solutions, and we are going to make sure ULI, not to say people what to do, we never do.
Mm-hmm. But we enhance the debate- Mm-hmm ... so we don't build the last dinosaur-
Right ... you know, that we build tomorrow's system. Right. Right. And, uh, that might be transit or not transit at all. There's lots of debates about that.
Mm-hmm. And we are, we are... And the fact that Columbus, uh, was able to be selected as the smart city gives us additional resources and access to more information. Mm-hmm. Again, that's not our forte, but we have one of our task forces, and we have three task forces right now, and one of them, uh, are basically the ones who stir that conversation. I mean-
Mm-hmm ... you know, and you will see it's happening in the coming year. Uh, you know, articles and, uh, symposiums and working with OSU's, you know, Central Real Estate and- Mm ... working with COTA, et cetera-
Mm-hmm ... to basically stretch people's minds who make the best solution for our community, and we don't go down paths that we can, we can pick that too, you know? Right. Yeah. So that's what's important. And then there is other issues we need to focus on as well.
When you say dinosaur systems, what are you thinking about when you say that? I mean, I think I can say without... Well, you know, but it might be controversial, but heavy rail would be a dinosaur. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I know a lot of people, um, a lot of our readers are very interested in the transit question, and they've seen the history of this get brought up in Columbus, and we've come close. And we have accomplished some things, you know. Um, COTA redesigned their bus network, and they've rolled out new initiatives and a lot of really positive things. Um, but I think a lot of people, at least among our readership, really wanna see a signal that the city is serious about investing in transit, something that is not car-based. Maybe the... I would, I would, I would sort of put it in the category of, one, uh, making a real investment, which takes, uh, some political will, and two, going so far as to even take space away in the public right away from cars. Um, do you think the, um, the will to do that in Columbus is growing, or do you think it isn't and the smart city thing is kinda shifting the conversation again? No. I think there is serious will in our community-
Mm-hmm ... to, to deal with this at every level. Mm-hmm. Uh, but I would say to, uh, this young generation, you know what I mean, or your readers, you know-
Mm-hmm ... who think there should be action, so what would you recommend? Right now, if you could do anything you want, what would you recommend? Mm-hmm. And how confident are you that what you recommend is the right system?
Mm. You see, I'm curious because when I have those conversations, there's a group in town who, for example, are very in favor of light rail. Mm-hmm. I mean, they feel that all this intellectual exercise a waste of time. We should be just start building it. Well, you know, you can ask some sharp questions and you will find very quickly that, uh, actually th- there are lots of questions that are not answered.
Mm-hmm. Uh, there are two things that we are all aware of, I mean, who are basically the big disturbers. Mm-hmm. And we've not taken full scale understanding of them, even in the country. I mean, that's why we are bringing the best brains here to speak about those things.
Mm-hmm. You know? I mean, and we are gonna bring more people. I mean, one is, uh, the shared rides. That is the ability of artificial intelligence to manage, uh, swarms of vehicles. Uh, so today, I mean, you could organize basically, I mean, a bunch of, I mean, driverless Smarts for a minute. Let's think about it. Mm-hmm. To... You can position them optimally. You can manage, et cetera. You can take people home, I mean-
Mm-hmm ... one spot to another spot. Mm-hmm. And you can also pick people on the way who happen to be overlapping with your tra, et cetera-
Right ... with very minimal waste of time. Mm-hmm. Okay. The, that technology is not available yet. I mean, cannot be deployed immediately yet.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But we are going that direction. In Smart Columbus, I mean, we are recommending initiatives who will start mimicking that model in some areas of town- Mm-hmm ... to see its feasibility.
Mm-hmm. I mean, s- can someone tell me that a swarm of intelligently driven driverless vehicles could not be a solution to mobility? You know, uh, I don't think someone can negate that. Mm-hmm. But I can tell you, I can make lots of objections to it. Uh, I mean, like for example, one of the big risks is encouraging sprawl.
Mm-hmm. You know what? I live in Zanesville, you know, call the car. Yeah. Picks me up. I work in my computer, and, uh-
Yeah ... and then so now we, we go all over the place. Right. You know, and that eliminates some of the benefits of concentration, you know-
Mm-hmm ... for the future of the city. But you cannot totally negate that. Then if you talk about, uh... And the second part of it is autonom- o- o- I mean, the one is this sharing, you know, of, of resources, and the second major trend obviously is, uh, the autonomous nature- Mm-hmm ... of those vehicles. I mean, even if your buses, can they be autonomous, you know?
Mm-hmm. And are they uniform sized buses or all kind of buses? Mm-hmm. Uh, and, uh, if we go with buses, what do you do with the drivers we have today? I mean, that's an $80 million payroll in the city, you know? I mean... Or is it a progressive change? How do you do that? Now, some people believe, in the same way as I'm saying that heavy rail is not, is a dinosaur. I'm talking about urban transportation, right?
Mm-hmm. I mean, I'm not saying between, say, Newark and downtown Columbus- Yeah ... or Newark to Columbus. I mean, uh, I mean, th- that can be many different things.
Sure. But I'm talking about urban transportation. I don't think heavy rail is a solution, but at the same time, um, you know, uh, uh, on the other hand, I don't think there are many people who refuse dedicated right of ways for the enhanced mobility vehicles. Okay. That is, even if I'm sharing, say, a Smart with three other people that I don't know, he picked me up at my thing, those vehicles to be able to move faster-
Mm-hmm ... than individual vehicles, you know, with, uh, enhanced, uh, passages, with, uh, controlled traffic lights, et cetera. Right. I don't think many people are against that either.
Right. You know? So there are certain things that are emerging- Mm-hmm ... that you might not know who is going on those right of ways, but you might need to have those, you know-
Mm-hmm ... public right of ways. Uh, so I mean, I think the, the, uh... And I think the, it's very important, uh, for all those dynamic people not to try to impose their views, you know? I mean, we need to come- Mm-hmm ... to those things through progressive thinking and building of consensus-
Mm-hmm ... rather than m- muscling our way. Like in the past, I mean, you would have, you know, uh, say transit car manufacturers, you know, who would basically gather and then start lobbying and try to push- Right ... legislature, push people, and get bond passed. I mean, we are past that time. In the world of transparency today-
Okay ... we need to build intelligent consensuses and, uh, make sure we do the right thing, you know, uh- Well, there's still plenty of money to be made, right? I mean, there's still really big corporations that are trying to, um, kind of guide where the technology goes, right? Mm-hmm. That- that's why it's importance of frankly ULI and the efforts we are doing.
Mm-hmm. Because we are not, uh, we don't depend on anyone. Mm-hmm. I mean, we depend on everyone. And, uh, and I would suggest to anybody, you know, interested in those subjects just to join ULI, and join... And we have a task force purely interested in, uh, mobility right now.
Mm-hmm. I mean, who, I mean, who's run by Keith Myers. Mm-hmm. I mean, who is the, uh, works for OSU, and that's his area. And I mean, and their goal is to stretch brains. I mean, you know-
Mm-hmm ... share information, make decisions and things like that. Mm-hmm. Great. I'd like to also ask you, 'cause I know I've, I've heard you, uh, speak about this, and just given your, your career and your expertise, along with transportation, there's a lot of talk these days about the future of retail and where that's going. Um, what do you think? Is it, um, is the sky falling for brick and mortar stores? Um, how is that gonna look in Columbus specifically? You know, um, there has been about six, seven, eight years of uncertainty on this.
Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, uh, we, I mean, there, there's waves, I mean, of information and adjusting your thinking. Clear... I mean, to answer your question first, yes, there's gonna be brick and mortar. Uh- Yeah ... there, there's no doubt about it. Uh, but, uh, the, uh... And but at the same time, there is a malaise, which is clear, you know? I mean, there is something wrong with the brick and mortar retail. And, uh, and then there is some things who are spectacularly disturbing, you know, the online delivery model, you know, and, uh, I mean, buying online. And so the easy solution is there's a malaise, then this new technology is killing the old one, and that's the solution. We are all going buying everything online in the future.
Mm-hmm. That's not true. But for that, uh, we need to... I mean, I don't know how much time we have. But I mean- ... we can talk about those subjects for a long ti- every one of those subject can take half an hour. But- Sure ... the... First we have to understand what is the problem with brick and mortar retail-
Mm-hmm ... in America. That's what we need to understand first. And for that, we need to get into some socioeconomic ... data. And, uh, and that's a point I make all the time. Uh, between, uh, the Second World War and President Reagan, the 35 years, 1945 to 1980, in America, if you look to tax returns filed with the IRS, the bottom 90% of the Americans claimed 70% of the income on their tax returns. Mm-hmm. 70%. And the top 10% of the Americans, you know, claimed the remaining 30%. That was a pretty constant number over the 35 years. Then you go 35 years forward from President Reagan, 1980 to 2015. In 2015, the bottom 90% of the Americans on their tax return claimed only 50% of the income.
Hmm. So we went from 70% of the income claimed by 90% of Americans to 50%. Mm-hmm. 70 to 50, if you do your math, that's a 30%-
Mm-hmm ... reduction, basically- Mm-hmm ... in available income. So I mean, this is huge.
Yeah. But I'm saying it, you know, in a casual tone, is a huge issue. Uh-huh. I mean, how can you tell that there was something changing? Well, look at Gap. They invented Old Navy because people... And because-
Hmm ... the 90% of the Americans first are the people who live paycheck to paycheck. Mm-hmm. That is, they spend most of the money they get.
Mm-hmm. They don't have much time to invest. I mean, it's leisure time, maybe some of this discretionary, but all the money gets spent. Mm-hmm. So when you take the... That's the money who goes to retail.
Mm-hmm. So when you cut that by 30% and you still need your jeans- Mm-hmm ... well, before you bought them at Gap, you went to the mall, and that was the cool thing to do. Now you go to Old Navy, the power center-
Yeah ... because the jeans are cheaper. Right. And then we also invented, in addition to Old Navys, we also invented the warehouse, um, you know, distribution centers, the warehouse retailers.
Mm-hmm. So you can go to Costco and buy your jean for even cheaper than- Right ... Old Navy.
Right. Then we created power centers, I mean, the TJ Maxxes, the- Mm-hmm ... you know, and all these, uh, discount tenants. We created outlet centers.
Mm-hmm. All this happened after Reagan. That is, as we realized that the available income to the middle class diminished- Mm-hmm ... then the retailers adapted, and they find cheaper ways of getting merchandise to us. So outlet centers, power centers, discounters, all that period of time. So what that happened is, I mean, during that time, that's huge, right? Then all the malls that were created, you know, to appeal to the middle class who had 90 per... 70% of the income-
Mm-hmm. Right ... did not have any customers anymore. Right. Mm-hmm. So the biggest closures you are seeing right now is this.
Yeah. Because where people used to go to Eastland, Westland, Northland, you know, Columbus, this, that, and the other- Right ... are basically ha- uh, do not have the buying power to be able to afford that merchandise-
Mm-hmm ... and they go to alternative form of retail. Mm-hmm. So what does it mean? Well, people are still going to brick-and-mortar, to those environments. But also, then there is two kind of retail. There's need and want-based retail.
Mm. And want-based retail, discretionary spending. So there are environments like Easton who are doing extremely well. I mean, we- Mm-hmm ... I mean, we, I mean, I, I mean, we could share with you maybe the traffic. From 2008, I mean, we barely had a year down. I mean, we-
Wow ... have always done well- Uh-huh ... because we are much more responsive to people's expectations.
Right. And, you know, and the traditional malls, I mean, are not responsive based- Right ... and they are stagnating, you know.
And that's, uh, increasing traffic in each of those years? Increasing, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's some up and downs-
Right ... but always up. Right. You know, and, uh, I mean, I mean, some years we're down 1.2%, then next year we're up 4%.
Right. So, I mean, we made up for it, but we always went- Right ... you know. So I mean, that's the strength. So what happens is, so the question is, what is the role of the brick, brick-and-mortar environments?
Mm-hmm. There's two kinds. There's the functional kind of retail, which is TJ Maxx, Costco, I mean, all those outlet centers, et cetera, where they are basically a distribution channel. Mm-hmm. And then there's retail who is basically a lifestyle retail, who appear to the discretionary income to the retailer, to the customer, which is Easton-type environments.
Mm-hmm. So- And where does, like, um, Short North that falls into that category? It's the second category.
Right. Right. Second category, right. Mm. So I mean, I, I mean, I, I teach a class actually at Harvard on this. You know, it's need and want-based retail.
Mm-hmm. You know, it, want-based retail is basically where you want to be if you go forward. So, so why and want-based retail environment like this works, even for online retailers. Mm-hmm. You know, it works because an environment like this, a better environment to capturing new customers. So what is the role of Easton for the future?
Mm-hmm. Is allow retailers to capture customers. So if I am an UNTUCKit, maybe you might be wearing one, I don't know, but I mean, if you're an UNTUCKit customer or- Mm ... Warby Parker or et cetera, you come to Easton not only to make sales but also to capture more customers.
Hmm. Because the cost of acquisition of new customers is the challenge for those retailers. Mm-hmm. And even online retailers now, they are all realizing that brick-and-mortar environments, the right ones-
Mm-hmm ... not all of them, but the right ones, are the place where you capture the customer- Mm-hmm ... and you add to your portfolio because the cost of acquisition. And also another benefit of, uh, brick-and-mortar environments that they are very scalable.
Hmm. Your fixed costs are given. Every time you add two, three more customers, your margins are huge. Whereas online, there's, there's no scalability. Ah. I mean, if you sell three more, then your costs are three times bigger because you still need to-
Right ... you need to- 'Cause once you invest in that storefront- Yeah, yeah
... right. Because you need still to- Right ... the guy who packages it, then you need still put it to UPS truck.
Right. You still need to get it delivered. Right. And, and that's not scalable. In our system, I mean, we make more money. So, so what happens is for... because of those reasons, I mean, there's gonna be a selection, uh-
Mm-hmm ... that's happening in the future. I mean, retailers who are in the, who see themse- I mean, people who see the retail environment as a distribution tool. I mean, Costco is a good example. Mm. Like, basically, their profit is your membership.
Mm. Everything is at cost. Mm-hmm. Well, you want something at cost, you go to Costco.
Mm-hmm. And, and that will survive- Right ... because, I mean, there's some benefit to it. And then there's environments like this, which is experiential, where you want to try, you want to do-
Right ... social interaction and things like that. Right. And they are gonna continue. So there is a future there. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but-
Yeah, sure ... that's a quick summary. Well, when I see in Columbus, there's a lot of talk about downtown retail, um- And how do we encourage that? And also, at the same time, what do we do with some of these closed down malls in other parts of the city? Um, well, what do you... First of all, for the downtown retail, what do you, what do you think we should do with those? Uh, let me take the closed down malls first.
Okay. Sure. There's many closed down malls, and multiple versions of them, uh, in the past. These are great densification opportunities. Sure. Because normally they are in good locations.
Mm-hmm. And they can be densified. Mm-hmm. I mean, we just need to open mind about it and go about it. And, uh, and frankly, what I'm hoping is that, I mean, uh, I mean, you and I also caused, uh, I mean, Columbus to be selected, uh, to the Ross Center Study, which is very, very important. Because, I mean, for example, one of the lessons from all the outside brains looking to Columbus said, "Your method of, you know, entitling is so primitive."
Mm. I mean, everything is by variance. I mean, why don't you establish the guidelines to match what the reality is today? Right. Mm-hmm. I mean, a simple example is you're still required to space some parking per apartment, and, you know, and everything else, and that should be a variance.
Yeah. You know, where everybody knows today that two is a stupid number. Mm-hmm. You know? I mean, you know, Simon, why is your book still talk about that, right?
Right. Right. So getting... So we need to organize our zoning and our land use regulations to be consistent with our vision of the future of the city. Mm-hmm. I mean, we cannot... You know, I mean, like for example, today in Ohio, we cannot do sev- any, any lot which is under 75 feet wide. Indiana can, 50-foot lots.
Mm. Mm-hmm. So why can't we do 50-foot lots? Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, you know, if people are willing to live in them.
Right. And, you know, and the accessory dwelling units, you know, to create what I call grandma apartments in the back. Yeah, like in the back. Yeah. You know? Which basically-
Yeah ... doubles the density, you know. Mm-hmm. And also create mixity of people living together.
Mm-hmm. These are all things we don't have in our books, so we need to put those things in our books. Sure. So that's that question. Uh, the first part about downtown, I'm going to say something tongue in cheek. They should come and talk to us. No, because I mean, that's what we do.
Uh huh. Yeah. And they are trying to reinvent the wheel, and I'm seeing the naive mistakes being made. Mm. I mean, it would be so simple because we would look at, you know, a corridor like, you know, Short North, take it from, um, start where you want to say Fifth or wherever you want to go.
Mm-hmm. And, and we look at it as we would look to a environment like ours, and then there are some very basic things they need to do- Mm-hmm ... and in order to deal with this. They are bold moves, but what they think bold is not bold enough. It has to be bolder than that.
Mm. Because one of the big problems of the Short North right now, it is not a regional destination. Mm. And that's the problem. So if you put a retailer there, you go after the same few guys who live within a certain distance.
Mm-hmm. And then that's why one brewery comes, one brewery goes. Another one comes, another goes. Because I mean, you cannot put more breweries if you don't get people from, uh, say, P- uh, Pickerington. Mm-hmm. You know? But why would I go from Pickerington to downtown where it's a hassle to park and-
Yeah ... there's no place, et cetera. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you are going to... You want-
And you probably have a brewery in Pickerington ... Uh, and you need... You can also. Yeah. So you need to create... But I think Short North has assets-
Mm-hmm ... who exploit it right, could make it into a destination. Mm-hmm. You know, I mean, I, I mean, I, it wasn't on the record. I don't know even where it was. I don't know if it was the Chamber of Commerce or something in, in, uh, 2002 or '3, you know, I, I made a speech downtown because we just had opened Easton Second Phase. And someone asked me, you know, "Who was our competition? Were you concerned about the Continent leftovers of it or would be concerned, et cetera?"
Mm. Mm. I said, "Our biggest competition," I said, "is gonna be downtown." Mm-hmm. And, and people said "He's crazy," you know. There's only one guy who were, with Plaza Properties-
Yeah ... who later came and told me that based on that they decide to acquire properties- Oh, wow ... downtown.
Yeah. And, but I mean, I, I'm sure they- I confirmed their suspicion- Yeah, yeah ... anything else. So what's happening there is totally predictable, has lots of opportunities, and, uh, I think the city did a great job, you know, working with the local leaders-
Mm-hmm ... you know, to try to push this and to make the changes. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and I think there's gonna be lots of opportunities there.
Mm-hmm. You know, and but they, they are thinking, uh, not big enough, I think. But I mean, I think that at the right time we'll get involved in that as well. Sure. Because from the corridor studies, then you're gonna say, "Okay, so what do we do in the corridors?"
Mm-hmm. And then, you know, getting into, um, as of right, you know, development, uh, envelopes- Mm ... you know, is going to be what will be required. And those are going to transcend, you know, the blocks, the streets, the precinct. I mean, it will have to be citywide.
Mm. I mean, you know, where pe- I, if you want, then Bexley is going to look to Whitehall, Whitehall is going to go to this, say, new model of densification along those corridors, and Bexley might turn their back to it, or they say, "Oh, heck, if w- we don't do it, then they are gonna get everything." So- Mm. I, I mean, there's gonna be-
Yeah ... I think some incentives there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, from Grove City to Worthington to up north, you know what I mean?
Sure. So I mean, you know, we've just... We need to, to, to, to be patient. But not- Mm-hmm ... I'm not saying patient to politically bury movement. It's just that you have to bring everybody together.
Mm-hmm. I mean, we cannot just go sharp- Mm ... you know, because then everybody turns against you, and you cannot accomplish anything.
Mm-hmm. Last question. I know you mentioned density, and I know there are plans in the future for kinda densifying Easton a little bit. Is that correct? Or adding residential at least. Yes. Can you talk about those a little bit? Yes. I mean, I, you know, we, we are peculiar about how we announce things. But yes, uh, I mean, over the long term, uh, we believe that, uh, I mean, part of the densification of Columbus, I mean, we have lots of empty land around us.
Mm-hmm. And, uh, not only all controlled by us, but even the Stelton Corridor going down to the airport, I mean, around Sunbury, around the Dominican school, you know. Mm-hmm. Uh, I mean, there's lots of land sitting empty, like Cleveland Avenue. I mean, there's land around here.
Mm-hmm. And we believe that, um... And w- I mean, our partners, uh, we all buy into the importance of, you know, uh, using our land wisely. That means, I mean, like any expansion of Easton going forward will be deck parked. I mean, we will- Mm ... not have surface parking anymore.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, this is a major commitment to density because also it's a f- a financial sacrifice. Sure. Because obviously the garages are too expensive. I mean, you know, land is cheaper right now.
Mm-hmm. But we are taking the position that we have to be, you know, protective of that. So yes, there's gonna be, I mean, literally over the long, I mean, I don't know how old I will be by then, but you know, 20, 30 years from now or 20 years from now, there'll be thousands of residential units at East. And whether they are condos or rentals or high-rises or low-rises, I mean, that's the, the long-term goal. Mm-hmm. And we'll start seeing things coming off the ground soon.
Great. Well, was there anything else you wanted to add or I know we talked for a while, but No, no. I mean, I mean, the, the, the, the areas of concern we have is, uh, I mean, frankly, ULI has three task forces looking into this. Mm-hmm. And one task force is about managing for growth.
Mm-hmm. To be aware we are a growing place of think. We are growing, so organize your thinking, i-integrating the growth into your thinking. Uh, the second thing is, uh, mobility. You know, don't, uh, d- don't think there are easy solutions. Mm-hmm. Today, even in the AV world, there are huge differences of opinion about how the future model is going to function.
Right. Mm-hmm. And among well-financed people, I mean, Ford doesn't agree with General Motors. Yeah. They don't agree with Uber. I mean, there's a guy, remarkable guy, Kornhauser, uh, you know, at Princeton, you know, who writes about this very, very well. So, so, so we are stirring the pot.
Mm-hmm. We have no interior motive except that let's do the right thing. Mm-hmm. And because of our independence, you know, people listen when we give the input at least. And the third one, very important one, and we spoke very little about it, is the adequacy of the housing.
Mm. Um, I, w- we, we never found the right word for it. Some people call it, you know, uh, I mean, affordable housing or, you know, workforce housing. Right. Mm-hmm. And, uh, adequate housing, whatever you want, but there is a disconnect, uh, between, uh, the housing mix that is offered and the housing mix that is needed. And, uh, and that's a subject ULI has taken on as well.
Mm. But it's a very difficult subject. Mm-hmm. Because that's the one where we are the, our, our task force h- has not been able to articulate a clear goal, you know?
Okay. With the two others, we know what we are trying to do. Uh-huh. But this one we are not clear, because first there are many people in this area. We are not the first ones, right?
Right. I mean, there are people whose only job is to create affordable housing. Right. There are other people who see that as a social equity issue. You know, how do we deal with that? Other people, like Columbus 2020, thinks of it as a workforce development.
Mm-hmm. That if you don't have housing where people work, and how do we deal with that issue? Right. Economic development. We also see it, um, and our group of people see it as an adequacy between supply and demand in size of units. I mean, you, you barely mentioned it, but the demographic profile of what is happening next 40 years-
Mm-hmm ... is very different than what has been. Mm-hmm. So we're, I mean, I'm exaggerating, but almost the next 30 years we don't need single-family homes anymore.
Mm. We have enough of them. Just buying and selling them will cover the need. Mm. But we need attached homes. We need-
Mm-hmm ... higher density product. Well, is our zoning and our thinking, you know, prepared for it? We are not sure we are, you know. Yeah. And then the affordability is a big deal.
Mm-hmm. I mean, today you can, there is no way, even free land, nonprofit contractors, nonprofit- Mm-hmm ... doing that cost, who can build an apartment that, uh, uh, someone earning the median income can pay.
Right. Mm. A new apartment, right. Yeah. Right. It is an impossibility.
Yeah. Basically, we cannot. So that mean, I mean, so there's a problem. So h- what do we do? Mm-hmm. You know, and, and frankly, we are spending lots of time on it, and some of them is, uh, you know, like we are thinking about, uh, maybe sponsoring or helping the c- the state. We are working with our, uh, ULI colleagues in Cleveland and Cincinnati, because they are two other councils, and see statewide if we can take an initiative to create a industrialized, uh, housing, you know, systems that can then manufacture homes at, you know, maybe at much lower cost-
Mm-hmm ... than traditional way of building them. So I mean, don't keep repeating the past model. Let's think different. Sure. You know, I mean-
Yeah, yeah ... can we have an Ohio model for industrialized house production- Mm-hmm ... which would cut the cost by 30%, you know?
Mm. I mean, if you could. Mm-hmm. You know, and so they are the kind of thing we are looking at right now.
Mm-hmm. But that's an area we, we are still, you know, tentatively trying to figure out. Great. Well, thank you. Good.
I appreciate the conversation. Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite developer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.
Transcript10,585 words
Tim Fulton Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we have an interview between Columbus Underground's urban development staff contributor Brett Warren and Yarimer Steiner, the founder, chief executive officer of Steiner and Associates, better known as the company behind Easton. They talk in depth about development as a civic responsibility, the importance of density and how to define it, the virtue of collective action, how developers can best advocate for their work through consensus, and the future of things like transportation, retail, downtown, and Easton. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. Enjoy the interview.
Yaromir Steiner But, uh, my goal is to make Columbus a better place. So I mean, the only reason I'm sitting with you is that I hope that will contribute to that, you know?
Tim Fulton Of course, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So I mean, I'm not interested in controversial-
Tim Fulton Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, comment just for the sake of, you know, creating waves.
Tim Fulton Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know what I mean? It just-
Tim Fulton Right, right, right. Great. Yarimer Steiner, founder and cn-- CEO of Steiner and Associates. Um, I'd like to thank you for talking with us today. I really appreciate it. I wondered if you would be willing to start just a little bit with, uh, give us kinda the CliffsNotes version of your background and where you grew up and how you ended up in, in Columbus.
Yaromir Steiner I was born in Istanbul.
Tim Fulton Mm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, I finished high school in Istanbul, Turkey. Uh, went to college in France. Um, I have a couple degrees in engineering and business, uh, from University of Toulouse, South of France. Served in the French military. I was in the Airborne. And, uh, came to the United States in 1980 to start the American affiliate of a French company.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Houston, Texas. I was 28 years old with my two young kids. And then, uh, I lived in Texas. Uh, I lived in Manhattan. I lived in, uh, Miami, Florida, and then in Columbus, Ohio.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So Houston, Manhattan, Miami, Columbus.
Tim Fulton Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And that's now... I mean, Columbus is the city where I have lived longest.
Tim Fulton Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.
Yaromir Steiner So now that's home.
Tim Fulton I know in Columbus the main thing people identify you with is Easton, of course. Um, and I do wanna ask you a little more specifically about that development a little later on. But I know I've been following the work you've been doing with Urban Land Institute, MORPC, with their In-Inside 2050, and then with the regional corridors. So I'd be interested to hear how you got interested in those initiatives and if you could give us sort of a, a brief update on, on where those stand now.
Yaromir Steiner In general, this is all, uh, aligned, uh, with, uh, our vision of the world.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Um, uh, you know, there are two kind of real estate developers. Um, you know, I jokingly, uh... Y-You know, uh, you can get a degree in real estate development, uh, both in, uh, University of UPenn, uh, at, uh, University of Pennsylvania at Wharton, or you can get it also at, uh, Harvard. And at U-UPenn, uh, the School of Real Estate is, uh, in the, in Wharton, in the School of Business.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, at Harvard, the School of Real Estate is at the GCD, Graduate School of Design, GSD.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner School of Architecture. So it's interesting. Both are forming developers who, you know, have obviously an understanding of, uh, design and construction as well as finance, but Wharton sees that as a business-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... as a financial transaction with brick and mortar, whereas Harvard sees it as a, you know, a, you know, placemaking transaction with financial overtones. We buy into the Harvard approach.
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That is, we believe that, uh, development is a civic responsibility-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... like an architect, and, uh, and obviously it has a financial approach to it. So what happens is, uh, my company, uh, everything I've ever done has always been to try to maximize the impact in the community and, and then obviously with financial record keeping as you are-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... if you are to survive. So, uh, for us, uh, ULI i-is an extension of that way of approaching, you know, real estate. Uh, Urban Land Institute, I mean, my company, my son was instrumental in creating the, the, the chapter in Columbus, the council, 10 years ago. And, um, and ULI's mission is, uh, to see how leadership in land use knowledge can contribute to the, you know, to the prosperity of, of, of a region. And the, the purpose of ULI Columbus that we've rewritten specifically this year was that how our leadership in un- uh, in real estate, in development, in planning, uh, could be used to enhance the well-being and the prosperity of central Ohio. And for well-being, um, which could be an, a word for happiness, you know, how can we use what we know about real estate to increase the happiness of the region, uh, we use Gallup's definition of well-being. You know?
Tim Fulton Okay.
Yaromir Steiner Gallup has a scientific approach to well-being, which would, by the way, a great subject, you know, for you to study-
Tim Fulton Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and cover. Uh, they've identified a way to measure wellbeing or happiness across all the nations on, in the, in the, in the world, and across all the states in the nation, and city by city.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And they have about multiple five pillars, and all of them are impacted by intelligent land use policies.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So basically, my work at ULI is to see how we can use our knowledge of development and, uh, land use to contribute, you know, to the wellbeing of central Ohio-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... other than just being a developer building shopping centers.
Brett Warren Right. Um, how do you... How have you found the reception to those kind of, kind of ideas in Columbus? Like over... You said ULI chapter here was established about 10 years ago.
Yaromir Steiner Yes.
Brett Warren Um, have things changed in that time? Was it initially were people receptive to that, or...?
Yaromir Steiner Uh, uh, a- actually, it was double... I mean, e- everybody was very receptive to it.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner But that focus, uh, you know, any new organization, uh, the first few years just tries to survive.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, just to establish itself. And, and I've been lucky. Uh, there's a Latin saying about we giants, you know, rest on... I mean, "We dwarfs rest on the shoulder of giants." That's the people before us, you know, build the foundation of this.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And I'm coming now and try to-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, move it f- further. So at the beginning, it's not fair to compare, you know.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner A, a council starting with 60 people, you know.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Today we are 300.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, but Columbus was a perfect place because Columbus has a long tradition of public/private cooperation.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That is, we have... I mean, that Columbus way, who is-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... taught at Harvard, I mean, is basically, uh, you know, public and private working together to further basically goals, uh, for the community. So in that sense, you know, it worked very well. And then the, the second reason, and so, I mean, so you find a group of, for example, developer, architects, I mean, all those principals in the community, when you ask the, to look at their work in light of the wellbeing of the region, that's not a unusual conversation with them.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, that's the way we think in Columbus.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Okay, how can I make a difference? And then the second part of it is the changing times.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, the, the millennial generation and the g- coming Gen Z generation, uh, for historical reasons, which we can get into, but, uh, are more interested in meaningful work. I mean, they are basically, they want that what they do has, makes a difference-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... uh, in, in, in the world, in the universe. So, you know, when, you know, we appeal to the younger generation of people who work for architects, who work actually for the cities, who work for developers, I mean, uh, engineering firms and so forth, and we show them that their knowledge can be put to work, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... to make a region a better place, that resonates extremely well with that generation.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So between the way Columbus thinks and then between the upcoming young generations, I think, uh, ULI found a very fertile ground-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, in Columbus.
Brett Warren Yeah, yeah. Um, and the Insight 2050, um, study specifically, my understanding of that is, um, it's looking at the coming growth in Columbus, which is gonna continue. It's also looking at the changing market, where there's gonna be more of a, uh, more of a market for denser development, both from empty nesters and young people. Um, and it's sort of laying things out like, "This is what the region will look like if we continue to sprawl outward, and this is what could happen if we build a little denser." Um-
Yaromir Steiner The, the point of 2050 was to build a planning consensus in Columbus.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, uh, Ohio is a home rule state. That means that we do not have central planning, uh, or land planning organizations who, who can impose their wills on large swaths of land.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, the biggest jurisdictions, who are counties, have zero zoning power.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, and, uh, and central Ohio has over, I don't know, 60 or 80 jurisdictions determining what they do. So any effort to try to coordinate all this was not going to work that way. So where we, uh, found a, an interesting angle, because, uh, some resources we discovered in the country available to us to make that analysis, was the good question people like, first we wanted to make sure... I mean, the goal was to communicate to our community that we are growing. This is not as obvious, you know.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner Columbus has always had that reputation of cow town. You know, we don't take ourselves seriously. There's that modesty of the Midwest-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, that we all have, and, uh, and Ohio has. And that strong modesty makes that sometime you miss, you know, the big picture.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, and, and-
Brett Warren Even the people who are living here.
Yaromir Steiner Oh, yeah.
Brett Warren Right. Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Very much living here.
Brett Warren Right. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, I, I'm going to quote numbers. I don't know how many people even realize the numbers I'm gonna quote now, but, uh, between 2010 and 2017, you know, over seven years, uh, Ohio, with all of our nine million people, we added 110,000 residents.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner So Ohio was nine million French. And some, I'm sorry using French words here. Uh, we are 9,000 and some... Uh, nine million and some, and we added 110,000 people over seven years. Central Ohio, with our two million people, we added 170,000 people.
Brett Warren Wow. Yes.
Yaromir Steiner Okay?
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner So two million people added 170,000.
Brett Warren Uh-huh.
Yaromir Steiner The whole state added 110.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner So you have to also understand that there's a math here.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So not only we are growing, we are bringing in from the rest of the state.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner So understanding that's a significant growth.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, significant growth, and, and it's happening nowhere else in Ohio.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, as a metropolitan area. It happening in pockets of Ohio-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... but not as a global. So communicate that was important.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner We don't want to confuse ourselves with Austin, Texas, Nashville, and so forth. Our growth is still maybe half the speed.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But we don't want also to think of s- of ourselves as a sleepy, you know, Midwestern town-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... because then that growth will be out of control. The second thing was then we look at those number demographically, and it's not wishful thinking. It's not Chamber of Commerce trying to say we are bringing jobs. This is just people giving birth, people- ... coming in, going out. I mean, it's almost mathematical.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner You know? Like the present unemployment in the nation who is down to 4% has nothing to do with really politics or economy. It has to with demographics. I mean-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... 10 years ago, there were papers saying that we are entering that period where more people that are retiring that there are people entering the workforce. Obviously, unemployment was gonna go down.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So it was the time to actually encourage immigration to balance that, but which we are doing exactly the opposite.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, it's totally nonsensical. So Columbus is growing, so that was first thing to say.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And the numbers are predictable. That is, we know that between now and 2040, 2050, we are gonna add, uh, the range varies, but 800 to a million people.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner The question that resonates with people when you ask the question, where do you think we should put that million people?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That people, that question resonates even people who are not in land use business.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner They can relate that we are talking about 40 to 50% of the exact population we have.
Brett Warren Right, right.
Yaromir Steiner And where we put them. Then the question you ask them, do you want to something to say about where they go?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Or do they want them to go wherever developers put them?
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, and the reaction's unanimous.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner There is no left, there's no right on this.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner People say, "Well, you know, I, I have an opinion about how we should be going about this."
Brett Warren Yeah, and you don't have to be a-
Yaromir Steiner Yeah
Brett Warren ... city planner to
Yaromir Steiner You don't need to.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner So that what's happened is these two first things, that we are growing, and now I think in the vocabulary of the city, I mean, I think we preach that enough-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... so people know. And ULI was very instrumental because when those number became available, I mean, when we, 2050 was over, we created training teams who went out and spoke at mayor breakfast, at Rotary Clubs-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... at the retirement homes. I mean, we did over 140 presentations to little groups of 10, to big groups of 200.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, that message was repeated over and over again. So now I think it's in the subconscious of our region that we are growing-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... and we have to be intelligent about where we are putting people. So what 2050 did is basically said, "Okay, now let's create s- scenarios and measure their consequences."
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner An easy scenario was replicate the past. The same place we put the last 800,000 people, the same way let's put the next 800.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And then this, there are four scenarios, and the more... So the top scenarios use it, uh, maybe 350 square miles of additional land. And then the, the least, uh, you know, most dense scenario use 15 square miles of, of new land.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So there are four scenarios, and we look at all of them. And, uh, I mean, today the city c- uh, it cannot, will not replicate the past experience.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Because our zoning books already are denser than the past.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So we are careful about that. But anyway, it showed that in all eight areas that we measured, whether it's, uh, you know, energy consumption, uh, time driven, uh, you know, air quality, which is, is it direct correlation with, um, you know, upper respiratory illnesses, um, the taxes you pay for maintenance of the infrastructure, and I mean, all those metrics, we have eight of them.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner All of them were more favorable to the, you know, to the denser version of the, of the region.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And that document and that effort was not political because we'd not go to anyone. We'd not say we are putting them in your neighborhood or your neighborhood.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner It was like global numbers.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner Global number-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... density pays. And that was hugely important because that we know we are a growing region, and we know density helps.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner By the way, the definition of density in that document is six units per acre.
Brett Warren Okay. These are not skyscrapers.
Yaromir Steiner This is not-
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner This is not, you know, New York density.
Brett Warren Right, right.
Yaromir Steiner You know? I mean, it's, it's dense like maybe German Village and et cetera.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So that is what's considered dense.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And not all of city was dense, but that was dense.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And then what was interesting when we did that, uh, report is that for the first time, um, that report appealed to everyone. 'Cause I, uh, sometime joke and I say, in the past the conversation about planning was about the guy who lives in, uh, you know, uh, Lancaster, uh, who says, "I want five acres, septic systems. I will drill my own well. Leave me alone." And then the counterpoint is the guy who lives in the Short North who wants Starbucks or N- or North Star under their condo, and you know, they want to live in an urban setting.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And each defending the other why they would prefer one lifestyle versus another, and you know, essentially using arguments who are qualitative, I mean, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... what resonates with a millennial-
Brett Warren And they're personal
Yaromir Steiner ... might not resonate with the other person.
Brett Warren Right, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Yaromir Steiner So there was this polarized conversation.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Our report cut that conversation-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... and said, you don't need to be dense, but denser areas-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... is cheaper.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Is better in the air, you have more time with your kids because you don't commute as long, use less energy.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, everything works.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Now you live anywhere you want. So for the first time, we saw counties like Fairfield, Licking, et cetera, coming to us and saying, "Hmm, maybe downtown Newark, you know, can we densify?" You know, downtown Lancaster, can we create some lofts? I mean, because there are some people now... I mean, people become aware that some people like density-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and accommodating them was not contradictory.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner So I mean, that's a long answer to-
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner ... you asked me short questions.
Brett Warren Yes.
Yaromir Steiner I speak a lot, but, you know.
Brett Warren No, I appreciate you, uh, taking us through kind of the history of that, 'cause it's really interesting. 'Cause I've seen, um, I think as a result of the work that, that your group has been doing, and MORPC and others, the conversation has definitely moved, and I see a lot of acceptance of the big ideas, you know.
Yaromir Steiner Right.
Brett Warren And but my, my main question for you, though, um, 'cause I write about specific developments that are, um, proposed for specific places, and I feel like when you see some of these, you see reactions against them- ... that are really direct. Like, you know, for instance, we don't have to talk about this specific project, but the Worthington-
Yaromir Steiner But Brett, we are working on his project, for example, right now. You're right, Brett Kaufman
Brett Warren Brett Kaufman and the Short North. Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... we tap on this project, Short North
Brett Warren ... that's a perfect example. So
Yaromir Steiner Or the challenge that the Leasentis has with, uh, Worthington, for example. Yeah
Brett Warren Yes, exactly. Like these, yeah, these are my two examples I was gonna bring up.
Yaromir Steiner Yeah.
Brett Warren So how, uh, my question is when the rubber hits the road and you have some of these projects that really kind of fit perfectly into what you're talking about and would help to build some of the density in exactly the places you wanna build it, but then, you know, the, the neighbors don't like it, or they can't get approval, or the city doesn't approve it, um, moving forward, do you think this is gonna be an issue, or do you think we're gonna actually kind of move past this and these projects are gonna get built?
Yaromir Steiner First, I would like to say something 'cause you mentioned something and I want to make sure I, I mean, I don't correct but add to what you said.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, ULI has been a leader in those efforts, but clearly that would not have been possible without the cooperation of MORPC-
Brett Warren Sure. Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... of COTA, of the Development Department of City of Columbus.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And frankly, I mean, many people from Westerville to the mayor of Grove City, I mean-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... lots of people are involved in this effort.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So I mean, you know, I mean we helped them initiate, but I mean-
Brett Warren Sure
Yaromir Steiner ... it's not, it's not a, clearly it's not a Jarmir Steiner effort-
Brett Warren Sure
Yaromir Steiner ... but it's not a ULI effort alone either.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And that's where ULI does the best. You know, we are above the fray.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner We have people from all walks of life, from city managers to architects to developer to planners to everybody's in it. So we don't have any agenda. We are not develop, de- defending apartments. We are not developing-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... industrial buildings or shopping centers. You know, we are saying, "How can you make Columbus a better place?" So I mean, that's as a little correction so that, you know-
Brett Warren Sure. Yeah. Of course
Yaromir Steiner ... as we present our efforts, it doesn't become just ULI. Um, then well, the first thing is, in everything we do, we have done in the past and going forward, you need to shape the conversation. That's the first thing you need to do.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, could we have told you as a intellectual with a French accent, you know, and getting a few other guys from the university to convince everyone that density was going to work better and that was the future? I would say that if you had taken a survey, probably 80% of us would have guessed that was gonna be the outcome. But there's a big difference between coming and saying it and imposing your-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... opinion or your wisdom, uh, et cetera, than to come to the conclusion, you know, from the ground up-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and sharing the information in an objective way. That's a huge difference.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Um, so I mean, that was very important, you know, because I mean, I can go even one step beyond that maybe, I don't know if you know, you were involved in it when ULI Columbus did the Columbus 2050 study, which had nothing to do with Inside 2050, which was about what is the city of tomorrow.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And we, it was a two-year effort. We, we had a little grant to play with.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And we get thou- hundreds and probably thousands of people together over the term of this to come with the, "Here is the report for the future of Columbus."
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I was in a, uh, in the s- Second World Forum of ULI in London, you know, with Prince Charles was there and others, where we are discussing the city of tomorrow. You know, I mean like three years before that. And the conclusions of the city of tomorrow were 95% the same as the-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... city of tomorrow Columbus reached.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But we could have just printed, changed, you know- ... the city with Columbus and it would have been the same thing, but it's not the same thing.
Brett Warren Right. Right.
Yaromir Steiner So you need to build that consensus. So going forward, we need to do the same thing. So what are we doing? I'm not going to find a solution, you know, for Worthington or for Brett's project, you know, on, uh, High Street. But what are the things that are, we are doing right now? So the next it's now is the corridor study.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Because everybody's... There is some kind of a consensus that densification should go with some kind of a, uh, im- enhanced mobility corridors.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I'm using carefully, I'm choosing my words.
Brett Warren Yes.
Yaromir Steiner Enhanced mobility corridors, because then those corridors, because, uh, if you want the transportation cost and housing cost are in agglom- You need to add them together when you are looking at anything.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, I mean, you can live without a car in certain environments, which then you can spend more on your housing, or you can, you know, spend less on your housing and spend much more on your cars.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And those choices do not have the same impact on the collective happiness.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know, we know that, uh, economic prosperity, density helps. You know, uh, environmental densities help. So there is reasons for that. So, so we knew that enhanced mobility corridors are an important thing. So we went to COTA in the city of Columbus. I mean, again, another example of ULI's intervention, both of them, one hit the next gen, one was something else. We were looking to the future mobility of Columbus.
Brett Warren Yeah, Connect Columbus. Uh, yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Both of them Connect Columbus.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Both of them were using the same California consultant. But two different teams conducting two different studies-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... running parallel without talking to each other. So we, I think, helped eliminate that, and finally, after a long time, get them to agree on five sample corridors-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... not all corridors. And then we said, "Let's do a similar study on those five corridors." That is to see if we coordinate zoning requirements, public incentives-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... uh, and, and some kind of a increased mobility, and can we increase the density on those corridors? And if you can increase them, you know, what kind of consequences does it have?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And can we do it in a way, for example, with dealing about housing issues as well? You know, the affordable housing issues.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Part of the package, the way you get your incentives, the way you get your entitlements and so forth, you have to look at it comprehensively. We said, "So take these corridors." We have 50 miles of corridors. They are one mile wide, so they go half a mile each side of the corridor. And then see how many people we can put on them if we dream about the future. I mean, this work is under progress right now.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, and we already identified that of if we had a million people coming here the next 50 years, we can easily take 30 to 60% of that growth in those five corridors.
Brett Warren Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And I'm saying 30 to 60, even if you take 30, which are very low densities-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and Columbus has more corridors. So before even going taking green fields and farms and everything else, we can just start building more density in town.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And then what we are doing is we are comparing that density of putting the same number of people, say 250,000 people on those corridors, putting them in Pickerington, Delaware, Licking County, wherever we want to put them-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and compare the models.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But now we have 10 variables.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner We have not only this, we also have taxes and other things. So we are looking at air quality, taxes, time driven energy consumption, water consumption. I mean, you know, upper-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... respiratory illnesses, all those variable, and see which one works better. And, uh, I hope, not I hope, I mean, uh, actually I have no hopes, but I believe that the corridors are going to be a more responsible use of, uh, land-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and it will be a more responsible fiscally-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... uh, sustainable model, uh, et cetera. I mean, that is the kind of environment you want to leave to your kids. You know?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner They have to pay less taxes, the air is cleaner, you know, and they, they commute less, spend more time with their families. I mean, that kind of stuff.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So if that happens, then ULI is gonna get into the thing and working with MORPC's resources, and now we are more intelligent, where last time we did that off the seat of our pants. We'll do a massive communication effort again.
Brett Warren Okay.
Yaromir Steiner So we will tell everyone, "Look, you know, and we can do whatever we want. Nobody has to do anything." But those corridors go-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... through the city of Columbus, uh, eight other municipalities-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... through townships, non-incorporated areas, and they go throughout the place.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So you cannot... There's not a person we can speak with. I mean, there's a bunch of people we need to talk with.
Brett Warren Right, right.
Yaromir Steiner But we'll tell them, "You do what you want, but here's what you dis- what we are discovering."
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner "So what do you want to do?"
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know? And that next conversation. And then part of that conversation is what means enhanced mobility corridor?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner What do you do in those corridors? And, uh, and we are about to initiate that conversation as well.
Brett Warren Okay.
Yaromir Steiner Because there-
Brett Warren And just to be clear, you're talking about this is the transportation realm.
Yaromir Steiner Yes.
Brett Warren You're talking about transit or something something to move people better.
Yaromir Steiner Yeah, move people better.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Right. I mean-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... it can be bicycle paths.
Brett Warren Yeah, yeah.
Yaromir Steiner It can be, uh, you know, it can be walking carpets. It can be- ... underground, uh, tubes-
Brett Warren Yes
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, where Elon Musk fires bullets.
Brett Warren Right .
Yaromir Steiner You know? And but it can be light rail, it can be trolleys, you know.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner It can be, uh... But also it can be a swarm of, uh, you know, mini, uh, smarts, you know-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... autonomously controlled.
Brett Warren Autonomous, yeah. Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner You know. And so there's, there's all kind of solutions, and we are going to make sure ULI, not to say people what to do, we never do.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But we enhance the debate-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... so we don't build the last dinosaur-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, that we build tomorrow's system.
Brett Warren Right. Right.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, that might be transit or not transit at all. There's lots of debates about that.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And we are, we are... And the fact that Columbus, uh, was able to be selected as the smart city gives us additional resources and access to more information.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Again, that's not our forte, but we have one of our task forces, and we have three task forces right now, and one of them, uh, are basically the ones who stir that conversation. I mean-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, and you will see it's happening in the coming year. Uh, you know, articles and, uh, symposiums and working with OSU's, you know, Central Real Estate and-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... working with COTA, et cetera-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... to basically stretch people's minds who make the best solution for our community, and we don't go down paths that we can, we can pick that too, you know?
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner Yeah. So that's what's important. And then there is other issues we need to focus on as well.
Brett Warren When you say dinosaur systems, what are you thinking about when you say that?
Yaromir Steiner I mean, I think I can say without... Well, you know, but it might be controversial, but heavy rail would be a dinosaur.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I know a lot of people, um, a lot of our readers are very interested in the transit question, and they've seen the history of this get brought up in Columbus, and we've come close. And we have accomplished some things, you know. Um, COTA redesigned their bus network, and they've rolled out new initiatives and a lot of really positive things. Um, but I think a lot of people, at least among our readership, really wanna see a signal that the city is serious about investing in transit, something that is not car-based. Maybe the... I would, I would, I would sort of put it in the category of, one, uh, making a real investment, which takes, uh, some political will, and two, going so far as to even take space away in the public right away from cars. Um, do you think the, um, the will to do that in Columbus is growing, or do you think it isn't and the smart city thing is kinda shifting the conversation again?
Yaromir Steiner No. I think there is serious will in our community-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... to, to deal with this at every level.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, but I would say to, uh, this young generation, you know what I mean, or your readers, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... who think there should be action, so what would you recommend? Right now, if you could do anything you want, what would you recommend?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And how confident are you that what you recommend is the right system?
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner You see, I'm curious because when I have those conversations, there's a group in town who, for example, are very in favor of light rail.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, they feel that all this intellectual exercise a waste of time. We should be just start building it. Well, you know, you can ask some sharp questions and you will find very quickly that, uh, actually th- there are lots of questions that are not answered.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, there are two things that we are all aware of, I mean, who are basically the big disturbers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And we've not taken full scale understanding of them, even in the country. I mean, that's why we are bringing the best brains here to speak about those things.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know? I mean, and we are gonna bring more people. I mean, one is, uh, the shared rides. That is the ability of artificial intelligence to manage, uh, swarms of vehicles. Uh, so today, I mean, you could organize basically, I mean, a bunch of, I mean, driverless Smarts for a minute. Let's think about it.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner To... You can position them optimally. You can manage, et cetera. You can take people home, I mean-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... one spot to another spot.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And you can also pick people on the way who happen to be overlapping with your tra, et cetera-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... with very minimal waste of time.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Okay. The, that technology is not available yet. I mean, cannot be deployed immediately yet.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But we are going that direction. In Smart Columbus, I mean, we are recommending initiatives who will start mimicking that model in some areas of town-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... to see its feasibility.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, s- can someone tell me that a swarm of intelligently driven driverless vehicles could not be a solution to mobility? You know, uh, I don't think someone can negate that.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But I can tell you, I can make lots of objections to it. Uh, I mean, like for example, one of the big risks is encouraging sprawl.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know what? I live in Zanesville, you know, call the car.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Picks me up. I work in my computer, and, uh-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... and then so now we, we go all over the place.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know, and that eliminates some of the benefits of concentration, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... for the future of the city. But you cannot totally negate that. Then if you talk about, uh... And the second part of it is autonom- o- o- I mean, the one is this sharing, you know, of, of resources, and the second major trend obviously is, uh, the autonomous nature-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... of those vehicles. I mean, even if your buses, can they be autonomous, you know?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And are they uniform sized buses or all kind of buses?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, and, uh, if we go with buses, what do you do with the drivers we have today? I mean, that's an $80 million payroll in the city, you know? I mean... Or is it a progressive change? How do you do that? Now, some people believe, in the same way as I'm saying that heavy rail is not, is a dinosaur. I'm talking about urban transportation, right?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, I'm not saying between, say, Newark and downtown Columbus-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... or Newark to Columbus. I mean, uh, I mean, th- that can be many different things.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner But I'm talking about urban transportation. I don't think heavy rail is a solution, but at the same time, um, you know, uh, uh, on the other hand, I don't think there are many people who refuse dedicated right of ways for the enhanced mobility vehicles.
Brett Warren Okay.
Yaromir Steiner That is, even if I'm sharing, say, a Smart with three other people that I don't know, he picked me up at my thing, those vehicles to be able to move faster-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... than individual vehicles, you know, with, uh, enhanced, uh, passages, with, uh, controlled traffic lights, et cetera.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner I don't think many people are against that either.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know? So there are certain things that are emerging-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... that you might not know who is going on those right of ways, but you might need to have those, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... public right of ways. Uh, so I mean, I think the, the, uh... And I think the, it's very important, uh, for all those dynamic people not to try to impose their views, you know? I mean, we need to come-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... to those things through progressive thinking and building of consensus-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... rather than m- muscling our way. Like in the past, I mean, you would have, you know, uh, say transit car manufacturers, you know, who would basically gather and then start lobbying and try to push-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... legislature, push people, and get bond passed. I mean, we are past that time. In the world of transparency today-
Brett Warren Okay
Yaromir Steiner ... we need to build intelligent consensuses and, uh, make sure we do the right thing, you know, uh-
Brett Warren Well, there's still plenty of money to be made, right? I mean, there's still really big corporations that are trying to, um, kind of guide where the technology goes, right? Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That- that's why it's importance of frankly ULI and the efforts we are doing.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Because we are not, uh, we don't depend on anyone.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, we depend on everyone. And, uh, and I would suggest to anybody, you know, interested in those subjects just to join ULI, and join... And we have a task force purely interested in, uh, mobility right now.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, who, I mean, who's run by Keith Myers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, who is the, uh, works for OSU, and that's his area. And I mean, and their goal is to stretch brains. I mean, you know-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... share information, make decisions and things like that.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Great. I'd like to also ask you, 'cause I know I've, I've heard you, uh, speak about this, and just given your, your career and your expertise, along with transportation, there's a lot of talk these days about the future of retail and where that's going. Um, what do you think? Is it, um, is the sky falling for brick and mortar stores? Um, how is that gonna look in Columbus specifically?
Yaromir Steiner You know, um, there has been about six, seven, eight years of uncertainty on this.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, I mean, uh, we, I mean, there, there's waves, I mean, of information and adjusting your thinking. Clear... I mean, to answer your question first, yes, there's gonna be brick and mortar. Uh-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... there, there's no doubt about it. Uh, but, uh, the, uh... And but at the same time, there is a malaise, which is clear, you know? I mean, there is something wrong with the brick and mortar retail. And, uh, and then there is some things who are spectacularly disturbing, you know, the online delivery model, you know, and, uh, I mean, buying online. And so the easy solution is there's a malaise, then this new technology is killing the old one, and that's the solution. We are all going buying everything online in the future.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That's not true. But for that, uh, we need to... I mean, I don't know how much time we have. But I mean- ... we can talk about those subjects for a long ti- every one of those subject can take half an hour. But-
Brett Warren Sure
Yaromir Steiner ... the... First we have to understand what is the problem with brick and mortar retail-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... in America. That's what we need to understand first. And for that, we need to get into some socioeconomic ... data. And, uh, and that's a point I make all the time. Uh, between, uh, the Second World War and President Reagan, the 35 years, 1945 to 1980, in America, if you look to tax returns filed with the IRS, the bottom 90% of the Americans claimed 70% of the income on their tax returns.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner 70%. And the top 10% of the Americans, you know, claimed the remaining 30%. That was a pretty constant number over the 35 years. Then you go 35 years forward from President Reagan, 1980 to 2015. In 2015, the bottom 90% of the Americans on their tax return claimed only 50% of the income.
Brett Warren Hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So we went from 70% of the income claimed by 90% of Americans to 50%.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner 70 to 50, if you do your math, that's a 30%-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... reduction, basically-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... in available income. So I mean, this is huge.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner But I'm saying it, you know, in a casual tone, is a huge issue.
Brett Warren Uh-huh.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, how can you tell that there was something changing? Well, look at Gap. They invented Old Navy because people... And because-
Brett Warren Hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... the 90% of the Americans first are the people who live paycheck to paycheck.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That is, they spend most of the money they get.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner They don't have much time to invest. I mean, it's leisure time, maybe some of this discretionary, but all the money gets spent.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So when you take the... That's the money who goes to retail.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So when you cut that by 30% and you still need your jeans-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... well, before you bought them at Gap, you went to the mall, and that was the cool thing to do. Now you go to Old Navy, the power center-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... because the jeans are cheaper.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And then we also invented, in addition to Old Navys, we also invented the warehouse, um, you know, distribution centers, the warehouse retailers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So you can go to Costco and buy your jean for even cheaper than-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... Old Navy.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner Then we created power centers, I mean, the TJ Maxxes, the-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, and all these, uh, discount tenants. We created outlet centers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner All this happened after Reagan. That is, as we realized that the available income to the middle class diminished-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... then the retailers adapted, and they find cheaper ways of getting merchandise to us. So outlet centers, power centers, discounters, all that period of time. So what that happened is, I mean, during that time, that's huge, right? Then all the malls that were created, you know, to appeal to the middle class who had 90 per... 70% of the income-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Right
Yaromir Steiner ... did not have any customers anymore.
Brett Warren Right. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So the biggest closures you are seeing right now is this.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Because where people used to go to Eastland, Westland, Northland, you know, Columbus, this, that, and the other-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... are basically ha- uh, do not have the buying power to be able to afford that merchandise-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and they go to alternative form of retail.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So what does it mean? Well, people are still going to brick-and-mortar, to those environments. But also, then there is two kind of retail. There's need and want-based retail.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner And want-based retail, discretionary spending. So there are environments like Easton who are doing extremely well. I mean, we-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... I mean, we, I mean, I, I mean, we could share with you maybe the traffic. From 2008, I mean, we barely had a year down. I mean, we-
Brett Warren Wow
Yaromir Steiner ... have always done well-
Brett Warren Uh-huh
Yaromir Steiner ... because we are much more responsive to people's expectations.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And, you know, and the traditional malls, I mean, are not responsive based-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... and they are stagnating, you know.
Brett Warren And that's, uh, increasing traffic in each of those years?
Yaromir Steiner Increasing, yeah.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, there's some up and downs-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... but always up.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You know, and, uh, I mean, I mean, some years we're down 1.2%, then next year we're up 4%.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner So, I mean, we made up for it, but we always went-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... you know. So I mean, that's the strength. So what happens is, so the question is, what is the role of the brick, brick-and-mortar environments?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner There's two kinds. There's the functional kind of retail, which is TJ Maxx, Costco, I mean, all those outlet centers, et cetera, where they are basically a distribution channel.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And then there's retail who is basically a lifestyle retail, who appear to the discretionary income to the retailer, to the customer, which is Easton-type environments.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So-
Brett Warren And where does, like, um, Short North that falls into that category?
Yaromir Steiner It's the second category.
Brett Warren Right. Right.
Yaromir Steiner Second category, right.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner So I mean, I, I mean, I, I teach a class actually at Harvard on this. You know, it's need and want-based retail.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, it, want-based retail is basically where you want to be if you go forward. So, so why and want-based retail environment like this works, even for online retailers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, it works because an environment like this, a better environment to capturing new customers. So what is the role of Easton for the future?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Is allow retailers to capture customers. So if I am an UNTUCKit, maybe you might be wearing one, I don't know, but I mean, if you're an UNTUCKit customer or-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... Warby Parker or et cetera, you come to Easton not only to make sales but also to capture more customers.
Brett Warren Hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Because the cost of acquisition of new customers is the challenge for those retailers.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And even online retailers now, they are all realizing that brick-and-mortar environments, the right ones-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... not all of them, but the right ones, are the place where you capture the customer-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and you add to your portfolio because the cost of acquisition. And also another benefit of, uh, brick-and-mortar environments that they are very scalable.
Brett Warren Hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Your fixed costs are given. Every time you add two, three more customers, your margins are huge. Whereas online, there's, there's no scalability.
Brett Warren Ah.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, if you sell three more, then your costs are three times bigger because you still need to-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... you need to-
Brett Warren 'Cause once you invest in that storefront-
Yaromir Steiner Yeah, yeah
Brett Warren ... right.
Yaromir Steiner Because you need still to-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... the guy who packages it, then you need still put it to UPS truck.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner You still need to get it delivered.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And, and that's not scalable. In our system, I mean, we make more money. So, so what happens is for... because of those reasons, I mean, there's gonna be a selection, uh-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... that's happening in the future. I mean, retailers who are in the, who see themse- I mean, people who see the retail environment as a distribution tool. I mean, Costco is a good example.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner Like, basically, their profit is your membership.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner Everything is at cost.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Well, you want something at cost, you go to Costco.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, and that will survive-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... because, I mean, there's some benefit to it. And then there's environments like this, which is experiential, where you want to try, you want to do-
Brett Warren Right
Yaromir Steiner ... social interaction and things like that.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And they are gonna continue. So there is a future there. I mean, it's more complicated than that, but-
Brett Warren Yeah, sure
Yaromir Steiner ... that's a quick summary.
Brett Warren Well, when I see in Columbus, there's a lot of talk about downtown retail, um- And how do we encourage that? And also, at the same time, what do we do with some of these closed down malls in other parts of the city? Um, well, what do you... First of all, for the downtown retail, what do you, what do you think we should do with those?
Yaromir Steiner Uh, let me take the closed down malls first.
Brett Warren Okay. Sure.
Yaromir Steiner There's many closed down malls, and multiple versions of them, uh, in the past. These are great densification opportunities.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner Because normally they are in good locations.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And they can be densified.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, we just need to open mind about it and go about it. And, uh, and frankly, what I'm hoping is that, I mean, uh, I mean, you and I also caused, uh, I mean, Columbus to be selected, uh, to the Ross Center Study, which is very, very important. Because, I mean, for example, one of the lessons from all the outside brains looking to Columbus said, "Your method of, you know, entitling is so primitive."
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, everything is by variance. I mean, why don't you establish the guidelines to match what the reality is today?
Brett Warren Right. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, a simple example is you're still required to space some parking per apartment, and, you know, and everything else, and that should be a variance.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner You know, where everybody knows today that two is a stupid number.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know? I mean, you know, Simon, why is your book still talk about that, right?
Brett Warren Right. Right.
Yaromir Steiner So getting... So we need to organize our zoning and our land use regulations to be consistent with our vision of the future of the city.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, we cannot... You know, I mean, like for example, today in Ohio, we cannot do sev- any, any lot which is under 75 feet wide. Indiana can, 50-foot lots.
Brett Warren Mm. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So why can't we do 50-foot lots?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, I mean, you know, if people are willing to live in them.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner And, you know, and the accessory dwelling units, you know, to create what I call grandma apartments in the back.
Brett Warren Yeah, like in the back. Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner You know? Which basically-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... doubles the density, you know.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And also create mixity of people living together.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner These are all things we don't have in our books, so we need to put those things in our books.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner So that's that question. Uh, the first part about downtown, I'm going to say something tongue in cheek. They should come and talk to us. No, because I mean, that's what we do.
Brett Warren Uh huh. Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And they are trying to reinvent the wheel, and I'm seeing the naive mistakes being made.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, it would be so simple because we would look at, you know, a corridor like, you know, Short North, take it from, um, start where you want to say Fifth or wherever you want to go.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, and we look at it as we would look to a environment like ours, and then there are some very basic things they need to do-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... and in order to deal with this. They are bold moves, but what they think bold is not bold enough. It has to be bolder than that.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner Because one of the big problems of the Short North right now, it is not a regional destination.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner And that's the problem. So if you put a retailer there, you go after the same few guys who live within a certain distance.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And then that's why one brewery comes, one brewery goes. Another one comes, another goes. Because I mean, you cannot put more breweries if you don't get people from, uh, say, P- uh, Pickerington.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know? But why would I go from Pickerington to downtown where it's a hassle to park and-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... there's no place, et cetera. You know what I mean?
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner If you are going to... You want-
Brett Warren And you probably have a brewery in Pickerington
Yaromir Steiner ... Uh, and you need... You can also.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner So you need to create... But I think Short North has assets-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... who exploit it right, could make it into a destination.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, I mean, I, I mean, I, it wasn't on the record. I don't know even where it was. I don't know if it was the Chamber of Commerce or something in, in, uh, 2002 or '3, you know, I, I made a speech downtown because we just had opened Easton Second Phase. And someone asked me, you know, "Who was our competition? Were you concerned about the Continent leftovers of it or would be concerned, et cetera?"
Brett Warren Mm. Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I said, "Our biggest competition," I said, "is gonna be downtown."
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, and people said "He's crazy," you know. There's only one guy who were, with Plaza Properties-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... who later came and told me that based on that they decide to acquire properties-
Brett Warren Oh, wow
Yaromir Steiner ... downtown.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And, but I mean, I, I'm sure they- I confirmed their suspicion-
Brett Warren Yeah, yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... anything else. So what's happening there is totally predictable, has lots of opportunities, and, uh, I think the city did a great job, you know, working with the local leaders-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, to try to push this and to make the changes.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, and I think there's gonna be lots of opportunities there.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, and but they, they are thinking, uh, not big enough, I think. But I mean, I think that at the right time we'll get involved in that as well.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner Because from the corridor studies, then you're gonna say, "Okay, so what do we do in the corridors?"
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And then, you know, getting into, um, as of right, you know, development, uh, envelopes-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, is going to be what will be required. And those are going to transcend, you know, the blocks, the streets, the precinct. I mean, it will have to be citywide.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, you know, where pe- I, if you want, then Bexley is going to look to Whitehall, Whitehall is going to go to this, say, new model of densification along those corridors, and Bexley might turn their back to it, or they say, "Oh, heck, if w- we don't do it, then they are gonna get everything." So-
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I, I mean, there's gonna be-
Brett Warren Yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... I think some incentives there.
Brett Warren Yeah, yeah.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, from Grove City to Worthington to up north, you know what I mean?
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner So I mean, you know, we've just... We need to, to, to, to be patient. But not-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... I'm not saying patient to politically bury movement. It's just that you have to bring everybody together.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, we cannot just go sharp-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... you know, because then everybody turns against you, and you cannot accomplish anything.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Last question. I know you mentioned density, and I know there are plans in the future for kinda densifying Easton a little bit. Is that correct? Or adding residential at least.
Yaromir Steiner Yes.
Brett Warren Can you talk about those a little bit?
Yaromir Steiner Yes. I mean, I, you know, we, we are peculiar about how we announce things. But yes, uh, I mean, over the long term, uh, we believe that, uh, I mean, part of the densification of Columbus, I mean, we have lots of empty land around us.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, not only all controlled by us, but even the Stelton Corridor going down to the airport, I mean, around Sunbury, around the Dominican school, you know.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Uh, I mean, there's lots of land sitting empty, like Cleveland Avenue. I mean, there's land around here.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And we believe that, um... And w- I mean, our partners, uh, we all buy into the importance of, you know, uh, using our land wisely. That means, I mean, like any expansion of Easton going forward will be deck parked. I mean, we will-
Brett Warren Mm
Yaromir Steiner ... not have surface parking anymore.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So, I mean, this is a major commitment to density because also it's a f- a financial sacrifice.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner Because obviously the garages are too expensive. I mean, you know, land is cheaper right now.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But we are taking the position that we have to be, you know, protective of that. So yes, there's gonna be, I mean, literally over the long, I mean, I don't know how old I will be by then, but you know, 20, 30 years from now or 20 years from now, there'll be thousands of residential units at East. And whether they are condos or rentals or high-rises or low-rises, I mean, that's the, the long-term goal.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And we'll start seeing things coming off the ground soon.
Brett Warren Great. Well, was there anything else you wanted to add or I know we talked for a while, but
Yaromir Steiner No, no. I mean, I mean, the, the, the, the areas of concern we have is, uh, I mean, frankly, ULI has three task forces looking into this.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And one task force is about managing for growth.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner To be aware we are a growing place of think. We are growing, so organize your thinking, i-integrating the growth into your thinking. Uh, the second thing is, uh, mobility. You know, don't, uh, d- don't think there are easy solutions.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Today, even in the AV world, there are huge differences of opinion about how the future model is going to function.
Brett Warren Right. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And among well-financed people, I mean, Ford doesn't agree with General Motors.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner They don't agree with Uber. I mean, there's a guy, remarkable guy, Kornhauser, uh, you know, at Princeton, you know, who writes about this very, very well. So, so, so we are stirring the pot.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner We have no interior motive except that let's do the right thing.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And because of our independence, you know, people listen when we give the input at least. And the third one, very important one, and we spoke very little about it, is the adequacy of the housing.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner Um, I, w- we, we never found the right word for it. Some people call it, you know, uh, I mean, affordable housing or, you know, workforce housing.
Brett Warren Right. Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner And, uh, adequate housing, whatever you want, but there is a disconnect, uh, between, uh, the housing mix that is offered and the housing mix that is needed. And, uh, and that's a subject ULI has taken on as well.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner But it's a very difficult subject.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner Because that's the one where we are the, our, our task force h- has not been able to articulate a clear goal, you know?
Brett Warren Okay.
Yaromir Steiner With the two others, we know what we are trying to do.
Brett Warren Uh-huh.
Yaromir Steiner But this one we are not clear, because first there are many people in this area. We are not the first ones, right?
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, there are people whose only job is to create affordable housing.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner There are other people who see that as a social equity issue. You know, how do we deal with that? Other people, like Columbus 2020, thinks of it as a workforce development.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner That if you don't have housing where people work, and how do we deal with that issue?
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner Economic development. We also see it, um, and our group of people see it as an adequacy between supply and demand in size of units. I mean, you, you barely mentioned it, but the demographic profile of what is happening next 40 years-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... is very different than what has been.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner So we're, I mean, I'm exaggerating, but almost the next 30 years we don't need single-family homes anymore.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner We have enough of them. Just buying and selling them will cover the need.
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner But we need attached homes. We need-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... higher density product. Well, is our zoning and our thinking, you know, prepared for it? We are not sure we are, you know.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner And then the affordability is a big deal.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, today you can, there is no way, even free land, nonprofit contractors, nonprofit-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... doing that cost, who can build an apartment that, uh, uh, someone earning the median income can pay.
Brett Warren Right. Mm. A new apartment, right.
Yaromir Steiner Yeah.
Brett Warren Right.
Yaromir Steiner It is an impossibility.
Brett Warren Yeah.
Yaromir Steiner Basically, we cannot. So that mean, I mean, so there's a problem. So h- what do we do?
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, and, and frankly, we are spending lots of time on it, and some of them is, uh, you know, like we are thinking about, uh, maybe sponsoring or helping the c- the state. We are working with our, uh, ULI colleagues in Cleveland and Cincinnati, because they are two other councils, and see statewide if we can take an initiative to create a industrialized, uh, housing, you know, systems that can then manufacture homes at, you know, maybe at much lower cost-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... than traditional way of building them. So I mean, don't keep repeating the past model. Let's think different.
Brett Warren Sure.
Yaromir Steiner You know, I mean-
Brett Warren Yeah, yeah
Yaromir Steiner ... can we have an Ohio model for industrialized house production-
Brett Warren Mm-hmm
Yaromir Steiner ... which would cut the cost by 30%, you know?
Brett Warren Mm.
Yaromir Steiner I mean, if you could.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner You know, and so they are the kind of thing we are looking at right now.
Brett Warren Mm-hmm.
Yaromir Steiner But that's an area we, we are still, you know, tentatively trying to figure out.
Brett Warren Great. Well, thank you.
Yaromir Steiner Good.
Brett Warren I appreciate the conversation.
Tim Fulton Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite developer. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.