Beyond the Beat

Tim Fulton 00:08Welcome to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week: there's a balance to be struck between storytelling and getting to the heart of what matters in writing. That's especially true when writing about the arts. Since 2015, Grant Walters has been writing about comedy and music for Columbus Underground, and he has stories behind the stories. In a conversation with Columbus Underground co-founder Walker Evans, Walters explores the challenges and triumphs of restarting a writing career, the power of connecting with fans that aren't his own, and the intricate process of writing about what truly matters. They also discuss the everyday challenges of music journalism, the importance of supporting the local music community, and understanding the cultural identity of Columbus. You can get more information about what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interview.

Walker Evans 01:22Sitting down with Grant Walters, author, freelance writer for Columbus Underground, man of many talents. Oh, thanks. Grant, how you doing?

Grant Walters 01:30I'm really good. Thanks, Walker.

Walker Evans 01:32Yeah, I'm happy to be sitting down with you today to catch up on a variety of things. I always have a really good time talking to you, because you do so many things out there in the world. Thank you. I want to run through a wide variety of things. But just to sort of introduce the audience, if they don't know who you are, for my context: you've been writing for Columbus Underground since 2015. Yeah. Going on nine years. Yeah, which is pretty wild. And primarily writing about music, entertainment, bands, comedians, entertainers — a lot of interviews, you know, acts that come through town — interviews, previews, reviews of shows. Yes.

Grant Walters 02:15Yeah, I'd say I write concert or, you know, comedy previews more than anything else.

Walker Evans 02:19Yeah. Occasional articles about, like, the local school system and stuff, but primarily the concert sort of stuff, for sure. Yeah. One thing for me is that every once in a while, I'll be looking at the archives, or I'll do a search for something and find something and be like, "Oh, I forgot about that from like five years ago." The most recent example: Nate Bargatze, who hosted SNL. Yeah, I totally forgot that you interviewed him like four or five years ago or something.

Grant Walters 02:44And you see, I was so pleased. I was like a proud parent watching, you know, this guy that I interviewed a few years ago. I mean, he was making his way, for sure. But yeah, SNL was really — it was a really nice guy to talk to as well. I really enjoyed him.

Walker Evans 02:55Was that — was he at Woodlands Tavern, maybe? Do you remember?

Grant Walters 02:59No, he was actually playing the drive-in. And so this was during the pandemic, dark days of the pandemic, where, you know, comedians had to be outside and standing on, you know, odd things in front of an outdoor audience. People had to honk their car horns instead of — exactly. So yeah, I'm sure he and other folks would prefer never to do that again. Yeah. But that's what it was. And so he was very nice. He was great to talk to.

Walker Evans 03:22Nice, nice. Yeah. And that episode of SNL is really good. It was excellent. Yeah, such a nice job he did. Yeah. He's also coming back to Columbus, I think, in January, February. Yeah. And he's playing — like, I think the Schottenstein, maybe. Uh, yeah, he's —

Grant Walters 03:35He's, like, filling an arena now. Yeah.

Walker Evans 03:37Maybe Nationwide. I think it was the Schottenstein. But yeah, he's an arena comic now.

Grant Walters 03:40So that means I probably won't get to talk to him. He's grown too big for my little column. But yeah, you never know.

Walker Evans 03:49But I spent some time kind of looking through the archives, because I'm like, there are others, I'm sure, that I'd have forgotten about. There's ones I always remember because they were, like, really fun reads. And I always remember the David Koechner story, like, something didn't record and you had to start over, and he was, like, super generous with his time.

Grant Walters 04:02Oh, that was Jay Mohr, actually. Mohr. Jay Mohr. Yeah, he — I had something where I tried a new app or something that was going to — because it was an incoming call, and it just didn't start with an outgoing call, and it just didn't record. And so I was devastated. Panicking. And so I contacted his publicist. He's like, "Don't worry about it, I'll handle it." And he called. He's like, "Grant, it's fine, I love talking. Don't worry about it." And very nicely sat down with me for another hour, just to, you know, recoup what we had talked about. It was great. He was a good guy.

Walker Evans 04:36I think maybe David Koechner, like, you met him afterwards, or something. I know you maybe talked to him twice over the years, and —

Grant Walters 04:42Yeah, and he kissed my bald head when he saw it. Yes, it was, you know, very nice. That was a moment, for sure. But he's a sweetheart of a man. I actually really loved talking to him. So, yeah, hopefully one of these days we can do it again.

Walker Evans 04:54Cool. And in the show notes, in the footer of this episode, we'll link to the archives, if people go back and read some of the stuff. But I was kind of going through and looking: Ben Folds, Chilli of TLC, Kathy Griffin, Patton Oswalt, the Goo Goo Dolls, Tegan and Sara, Pignataro, Jimmy Eat World, Melissa Etheridge, Damon Wayans Jr., the Gin Blossoms, Kevin Nealon, the Barenaked Ladies, Matt Rife, Jason Alexander, 98 Degrees, Carson Kressley of Queer Eye, and Alice Cooper. Yeah, just to name a few, which is a really wide variety, if you'd like. I mean, 98 Degrees and Alice Cooper. Whoa. And that's, like, boy band to, like —

Grant Walters 05:29I know. Rock. That's a pretty stark gap in between those two genres of music. Yeah. It's pretty weird to think about all the people that I've talked to. And I mean, I'm just a guy, you know, living in Columbus, from Winnipeg, you know? So it's just strange to me. A lot of people ask me, they're like, "How do you get to talk to all these people?" I'm like, that's a great question. I don't remember. Yeah.

Walker Evans 05:51The publicist reached out because they're coming through town, and they're trying to sell tickets, often.

Grant Walters 05:55Sometimes I'll reach out, sometimes to no avail. But a lot of times, if you're enthusiastic and you can demonstrate that you can have a conversation, they're pretty open. So some people that I really wanted to talk to, I did the reach out, which was very nice. But Ben Folds was actually the first sort of major music interview I did for Columbus Underground.

Walker Evans 06:13And I think you're a big fan, too. Yeah.

Grant Walters 06:17I love Ben Folds. And he was playing with a symphony here. And I was nervous. I was so nervous, because I know Ben's so smart. He's a really accomplished musician, but also a really, very intellectual person. And so I worked really hard on the questions to make sure that, you know, they were worthy. Of course, he couldn't have been nicer, and answered everything that I threw his way with, you know, grace. So that was very nice. But yeah, it's amazing to think about all the people that I've talked to and had conversations with. And, you know, for them, I'm sure it's nothing, they're just doing their PR stuff. But yeah, I mean, some of those conversations were really meaningful. And you feel very connected to them, you know, for a period of time, and it's very nice to be in that position. And this is something I always wanted to do. And I think when I came to you a few years ago and said, I really wanted to write —

Walker Evans 07:07Yeah, where did that come from? What was that itch?

Grant Walters 07:09I always said that I wanted to. I did an album review when I was in ninth grade, and I loved doing that kind of stuff.

Walker Evans 07:17What was the album, do you remember? And was it a good or bad —

Grant Walters 07:20I don't. It was good, it was a good review. But I just remember I started doing a little bit of academic writing, or some professional writing for my job in higher education. And I just said to my friend, I'm like, this is fine, but, you know, I'd really love to write about music and artists. And I said, wouldn't it be cool? And she's like, "Why aren't you? Can't you find something to do?" And I'm like, yeah, but I'm old and trying to restart my career, and becoming a writer is tough. And so, you know, when I moved to Columbus in 2013, I came and found — I started reading Columbus Underground, and I thought, I wonder if they would ever, you know. And so I remember you and I having a conversation, and you just said, you know, "What do you want to write about?" And I said, I don't know, music, comedy. And you're like, "Great, dude, let's go, let's try it." So you gave me a shot, which was very, very kind of you. And it's worked out very nicely for me. I hope it's been okay for Columbus.

Walker Evans 08:13Yeah, no, no, you know, a lot of the stuff has been well read. And even the stuff — you know, I always say, what's important isn't always popular, and what's popular isn't always important. Yeah. So even the ones where, you know, the total number of eyeballs on the article was lesser, it still connected with those fans. Yeah, you know, so I think there's importance there. Yeah. I should also add, you're an award-winning journalist, because we've submitted some of your work over the years. The Ohio Society of Professional Journalists has recognized you, yeah, like two or three years, for your work.

Grant Walters 08:42That was a trip. Yeah. So nice to be — you know, of all the people that are writing and doing really good work in Ohio, it was really humbling to be recognized by, you know, journalists and peers that work in the industry, and I just do this part-time. And so, yeah, the fact that I got that kind of recognition, to me, was kind of mind-blowing.

Walker Evans 09:05I think we can talk a little bit about this toward the end of the episode — in my notes, about sort of the future of journalism — but I think we're all headed toward working part-time in the field of journalism, sadly, not to be all doom and gloom. But before we go there, I do want to talk about your book.

Grant Walters 09:22Very specific topic. Very, very specific, very niche topic. Yes.

Walker Evans 09:27I guess, tell us, where did this come from?

Grant Walters 09:31Oh, gosh, it's such a long story. So the books that I'm writing are called Decades, and it's a book about the Bee Gees. And it's exploring their catalog — not necessarily a biography, but exploring their really massive catalog, song by song, album by album, and telling the stories of how those records got made. So this has a fairly long tail. I've been a big fan all my life, since I was very, very little. But things really got started when I was in college. And this was at a time in the early '90s, when the internet was very much a baby and not really publicly accessible. But we were able to apply to get an email address. And that's not something everybody had at that time. We worked on these big Unix computers, where everything was sort of this command prompt, and that's how you got email. And so I got an account. And as I was exploring, I noticed that other musicians had these mailing lists, you know, listservs, where fans got to talk about music and sort of built these online communities. And I thought that was really cool. And I took a gamble and asked my system administrator, "Hey, could we set one up? I'd love to do one for the Bee Gees." And they're like, "Yeah, let's do that." And so we established it. I started to get some feelers, and within a few weeks to a month or so, we started having hundreds of people subscribing. Yeah, I can't remember exactly how many people it ended up with. When I left college, I actually passed it along to another person who lived somewhere else in the world, definitely not in North America. But they took the listserv over. The listserv just got shut down earlier this year, so it had a life of over 30 years. Yeah, but of course, it's gotten replaced, you know, by social media and other forums and things like that. But so, all that to say, online while I was there, I met a lot of other Bee Gees fans, and my two co-authors, Andrew Mon Tabbutt and Mark Cronin, were on that listserv. And so we started having these conversations, you know, people firing emails back and forth and nerding out about the music, for the past few decades. And so, during the pandemic — Andrew and Mark actually wrote a Bee Gees biography about 20 years ago that did very, very well. And Andrew had pursued a publisher that had these — it's a music publisher in the UK, and it's called Sonic Bond, and they specialize in music books strictly. Cool. So they publish this series called Decades, and what it does is it tackles an artist's career by decade. And we signed on to write these books during the pandemic and started in early 2020. We put out the first volume — it's Decades: The Bee Gees in the 1960s — it came out in December of 2021. And the one that's just come out, in May, is on the '70s. So two books down, we think we have two more to go. We'll focus on the '80s next summer — currently writing — but then we'll do a '90s and 2000s volume. I mean, they had a career that spanned 70 years, and ongoing. So there's a lot to talk about. And so that was sort of the history of how this all came about. But all of a sudden, I'm a published author, and, man, that's weird.

Walker Evans 12:44When I think — a lot of people think about the Bee Gees, they think about the '70s specifically, right? Kind of the height of their career, the disco, the height of disco, late '70s, early '80s. Do you think that'll be, like, the best-selling book, just by that? Or are these really for, like — the music you're selling to that listserv, you're selling, like, the super hardcore fans, and actually the —

Grant Walters 13:02The '60s has done really, really well. It's really — that's off, as you know, they're a British band, but they also had eight years in Australia, where they actively recorded at the beginning of their careers. And so we actually had a huge response overseas for a while. "Huge" is a relative term, but I mean, within the confines of what our publisher can do, and, you know, our subject-matter area, people really responded well to the first book too. So I think the '70s — I think they're pretty much neck and neck right now, really.

Walker Evans 13:31Understandable. That's awesome. Yeah. And you've been traveling a bit with this, yeah?

Grant Walters 13:35Did sort of a mini book tour over in the UK in September. So we went to Thame, in Oxfordshire, which is where the residence of Robin Gibb was, and Robin's actually buried there. And so we did a book talk there, which was really nice. And we had about 40 people show up and listen to us. And they traveled from all over England and came to see us, which was very nice. And then we did another one in Wales. So that was cool, just to sort of be able to come face to face with people who love the music as much as we do and talk about the books. And it was pretty detailed, pretty geeky, but that's the stuff we love. And so that's the whole reason why we wrote these books, was because, you know, people love talking about their music. And for the people that don't know their music as well, who maybe only know Saturday Night Fever, or, you know, their '70s output — their catalog is massive. And so we're hoping that by publishing these books, somebody will read them and discover the depth of that. And they've been so influential. I mean, they started recording music in 1959. It's a pretty stellar career. And I think that, you know, those years of Saturday Night Fever and Spirits Having Flown, their follow-up album, you know, from '75 to '79 — I mean, it just only scratches the surface.

Walker Evans 14:54Sure, yeah. So my personal connection to the Bee Gees — and it's funny, because you mentioned, like, the late '90s listserv sort of era. When file sharing, MP3s, everything started getting passed around, I was a teenager, so it was sort of like opening the door to discovering new music. There was a rapper, like a hip-hop artist, who did covers of songs, and he did a couple. He did a "Stayin' Alive" in N-Trance —

Grant Walters 15:23Are you familiar with N-Trance? Yeah. Yeah, this is a Canadian group, actually. Oh, really? Okay, nice. Yes, "Stayin' Alive" was a number one hit in Canada. So, nice. Yeah, they were number one twice with "Stayin' Alive." Yeah. And that was, like, late '90s, sort of Eurodance era of music.

Walker Evans 15:38So it's really interesting to see that sort of come back around, because everything is very cyclical over 20 years, right? Like the way people have nostalgia for, like, the early 2000s now, like — that's how far we are removed from the '90s to the — just to make us feel old. Oh. So one of the things I wanted to ask you was, you know, did you set out to write a book from the beginning of this journey with them, knowing that they had written a book before? Because I think a lot of people, when they think about, "Oh, I want to write a book," it's, like, a very daunting — how do you get from zero to published? You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a multi-year process. How do you break that down into sort of achievable goals?

Grant Walters 16:18Sure. Well, I mean, they asked me to come on board. And so, you know, we developed a friendship. But as I started journalism work and things like that, they had seen that, and I'd written some Bee Gees-related articles for another outlet that I was writing for at the time called Albumism, and that was focusing on the album art form. And so I did some Bee Gees retrospectives and things like that as well, and Andy Gibb as well. So you speak to one of the kids — yeah, Spencer. Spencer Gibb is actually a friend of mine. Samantha was that also — and Samantha, yes, is Maurice's daughter, and Spencer's Robin's son. And so, yeah, I've had a chance to connect with them. Spencer and I still talk pretty frequently. He's pretty busy right now, but he actually wrote the two forewords for our books. So that was very nice, to have members of the Gibb family, you know, talk to us and share some of their insight, but also really support the projects, which was, you know, incredible. That was great. But they brought me on board, as they knew that I was doing some journalism work and had wanted me to, you know, contribute. They knew I had a lot of knowledge, and — I mean, they're huge collectors and historians. Andrew actually worked for the Bee Gees for a period of time, doing some different projects for video and television and things like that. And Mark actually had the largest Bee Gees collection in Australia, and donated it all to the Queensland library. So it's sitting in their archives now. So the two of them, very serious collectors and serious historians. So the fact that they asked me to come along was very nice. But in Andrew's words, I'm the fancy writer. And so I think they benefit from me being able to wordsmith it. But it's been really cool. So they asked me to come on, and we sort of just started working from there and assembling bits and pieces of information. And so really, it was developing the timeline, it was developing a series of events, it was laying out all the albums and tracks, and then from there, building out a narrative around that as well. So that was sort of our process.

Walker Evans 18:20Sounds cool. Not to get too far ahead, but are there any other bands or artists that you would consider working on a similar type of retrospective?

Grant Walters 18:28Oh, yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to do Simon and Garfunkel. I would love to write a book about Chris Isaak, who's another favorite artist of mine. So, yeah, I'd be up for that. We have to finish these first, before —

Walker Evans 18:40Yeah. Before what's next?

Grant Walters 18:42What's next? Yeah. But no, I mean, definitely, I think that's a possibility that I'd love to explore. And Spencer and I actually talked about writing a book — and I'm hoping this doesn't hold us to this project — but writing a book about sort of the late-'60s music business in London, on Carnaby Street, and sort of focusing on, you know, Brian Epstein and Robert Stigwood, and all those music moguls that set up shops in London and helped to create the British Invasion. So that might be something we would be interested in tackling. So that might be a fun project for the future.

Walker Evans 19:18Well, we had an event slated last week to talk about sort of music journalism in Columbus, so I wanted to touch upon a few of those topics with you as well. You know, it's something that we've always — I wouldn't say struggled, but, you know, gone to great lengths to try and really get our arms around with Columbus Underground. Music journalism is important — but local bands, touring acts. You've done a great job kind of covering more of the touring acts, and you have talked to some local bands, like CAAMP, and I'm gonna forget some of the others off the top of my head. But it's not always as well read as you want it to be, those kind of, like, concert — and Matt Dallas goes to a lot of shows with photos.

Grant Walters 20:02Yeah, he's such a great photographer, and he captures everything so well. Yeah, he's —

Walker Evans 20:06He's excellent at that. But, you know, it's a valuable part of the ecosystem that creates the creative scene here in the community. So we want to be supportive and nurturing of that. So some of it's just, like, you know, you got to just get people right, and get people excited, you know, one on one, just keep pushing that boulder up the hill. Do you feel the same sort of way when it comes to some of these kinds of things?

Grant Walters 20:26I think so. Yeah. You know, it's hard to know what's going to stick and when people are gonna sort of key into it and things like that. But, you know, I have an anecdote — not from Columbus Underground, but for Albumism, that I wrote for. I had written an article on David Cook, who was an American Idol winner, and he came to Columbus — or he was touring, but also came up with an album — and I said, I'd like to talk to him. So I did. And my editor was like, "Nobody's gonna read that, like, that's not really our core audience." And then it ended up becoming one of the top five articles read on the website for the year. And I was like, great. So sometimes you don't know. There are times, you know, people will — depending on the fan community, depending on how — if they share stuff out for us, which is always very nice. Sometimes artists and their publicists don't, you know, put our articles out into the ether for folks to consume. So when that happens, sometimes we get a nice little bump, and that's great. But yeah, it's hard to predict, sometimes, what's going to ignite and what's not going to. So sometimes I write things and I'm like, well, hopefully this is great, like, this is a popular artist, and then, you know, you have 35 reads in your life now. All right, well, that wasn't what I thought. But yeah.

Walker Evans 21:40Sometimes there's not a lot of longevity as well, if it's around an event. Yeah. If it's a concert preview, and you're talking just about that show, or a review of those photos — like, once that week is over, nobody's gonna go back and look at it, unless it's, you know, an up-and-coming band, and it's like, "Oh, look at these photos we took five years later," yes, of this band that, like, 20 people were at their show, and now they're playing stadiums. Like, that's kind of cool, to have that sort of little snapshot in time. Yeah, yeah. We experienced the same thing when Jesse Bottei, another freelancer of ours, came to us with the idea that he wanted to do sort of, like, an archaeological take on the North Market graveyard. And we're like, people probably aren't really gonna read that, but you're super into it, so we're into it, knock yourself out. And to this day, it's been the most well-read series of the year. It's crazy. Like, every single — he'll do another installment, and, like, another 20,000 people read it. Loves it. Another installment, another 20,000. So it's been great. With music, you know, part of it is, do people want to read interviews with local bands? Do they want, you know, a list of upcoming concerts? Do they want concert reviews and coverage? Do they want album reviews? Are people still even releasing albums these days? Yeah. And how to make sure — I mean, what does Columbus sound like? You know, is it the indie rock scene? Is it the hip-hop scene? Is it the sort of, like, country-bluegrass scene? Or is it a collection of everything?

Grant Walters 23:04Yeah, it's really hard to say. I don't know the formula. I wish I did. Yeah. But, you know, so I try to interview a variety of artists that I think are appealing to folks. And, you know, sometimes I think, oh, if this person is playing an arena, then, you know, 20,000 people are going to show up, somebody's got to read this, right? And then sometimes you're like, oh, I guess nobody. That's fine. But they've got a ticket to go to the show. So it's just hard to figure out, you know, what'll take off, and to find the correct balance. And I guess, to answer your question, it's like, I don't know what the mix of Columbus music is. I think it's a lot of everything. And so, you know, country and Americana does really well here, but so does heavy metal, and so does rap. And so, yes, you know, I mean —

Walker Evans 23:48Electronic music. We've got a big, vibrant DJ scene, you know, and that has its own sub-genres within. So it's a lot. So you have to really try and be everything to everyone, which is tough.

Grant Walters 23:58It's really hard to do. And I'm also limited — I mean, I'm only part-time. Sure. So it's hard to — if I had a career to be able to spend, like, figuring out metrics and, you know, going out to shows every night and also do that. And that's part of it, too. And the industry is really interesting, because they really want you to come out and watch the show and react to it, because they really want you to capture the feel of the live show and tell other people about it, so that they buy tickets to go to the next thing. Check them out. And so I realize, sometimes, I don't think that's always where our readers are, because, you know, reviewing a show after you're done with it — I don't know how much that appeals to people. It's like, you missed it. Yeah, here's the thing that you didn't go to, so great. Yeah, too bad you didn't go. Right.

Walker Evans 24:44Well, like when Richard Sanford does the theatrical reviews, he tries to get in on opening weekends, so that he can have the review done and then the show runs for two more weeks. Right, to go see. Yeah, which makes perfect sense. Or, like, movie reviews with Hope and George — they watch it opening night, and then it's in theaters for a while.

Grant Walters 24:59I've always tried to poke around with the artists, just because I feel like it's interesting. Maybe it's interesting just to me. But I hope it creates more for the artists too, because I like to get to know the people that create my art, and that I appreciate. And so I guess maybe there's a little bit of selfishness there, that I love doing that. And I'm hoping other people like it too. But I was finally doing reviews, because a lot of people want album reviews — and it's like, I'm not a really great music critic. I know that about myself. I really don't like writing about stuff if I discover I don't like it. I don't really enjoy pursuing it. And so, you know, when I get pitches for certain things, I know — I'm like, I know I'm not going to want to write about that. And so I don't. And maybe that's my limitation. Maybe I need to push myself a little bit more. But I also don't want to turn it into, like, "Am I — I really disliked this album, and I want to be honest." Like, is that great for our readership? Is that great for our reputation? Is that good for — you know, I don't know. Other people do that really well. I don't think I do.

Walker Evans 26:01You know, the financial model of this sort of stuff has changed a lot over the years as well. And that's one of the things that we've been talking internally about, because we do want to bring on some more freelancers to help cover the scene. But, you know, bands don't have a budget to advertise. Small venues don't have much of a budget to advertise. The larger venues are growing more and more consolidated, and so their budgets become these massive things that are untouchable to small publications like us. They'd rather dump their money into the duopoly of, you know, Meta and Alphabet — Facebook and Google — exactly, to sell concert tickets. And, you know, they don't really throw us a bone. So how do you rebuild that sort of ecosystem of local spending, in addition to, you know, so that we can pay writers to cover the music, and have the music promote their shows to our readers, and keep that wheel turning, I guess?

Grant Walters 26:49Yeah, and I wish I had a good solution to that. And I also find, too, that a lot of artists and their publicists still really want to go for big publications. And so I think if you're a smaller publication like us, or a smaller outlet, that, you know, people would rather go to the Columbus Dispatch, because that's the name, that's big journalism. And, you know — no shade to the writers there. But it would be nice to have an opportunity sometimes to get some of the people that they do, because I would love to spend time with them and whatnot. But sometimes you don't always get that opportunity. Sure. Yeah, and they're very candid about it. They're like, "Yeah, we're probably not gonna." Yeah.

Walker Evans 27:30Well, you know, especially if it's a band or musician or comic, you know, they're in town to do a show. They don't want to spend six hours of their morning talking to every media outlet in town. They'll pick one or two, so they can still kind of chill out before their show or whatever.

Grant Walters 27:46Does that tell — I mean, yeah, you know, CAAMP has been very nice about throwing us, yeah, you know, really good folks, and saying, "You know, we know you did a good job, so we'd like to use you." Yeah.

Walker Evans 27:56Yeah, you had Craig Ferguson recently, which was really cool. And then — Greg, so great. I know Sam Morril, who is a comedian, oh, I love him. It sounds like he doesn't really like talking to the media that much. He's been sharing all those clips of, like, sort of trolling TV news —

Grant Walters 28:11How he purposely goes in and tries to emulate people and tries to catch them off guard. Yeah. He was fine with me. Yeah, obviously, in reading —

Walker Evans 28:21Your piece, it kind of sounded like he started off a little surly, and then you kind of, like, cracked that nut a little bit and started talking about, like, sports and other things, other than just, like, "How's the tour going?"

Grant Walters 28:29I really work hard —

Walker Evans 28:30"Have you ever been to Columbus before?" Like —

Grant Walters 28:33"What can you expect from your show?" Yeah, "What can you expect from the show?" Yeah, comedy show, right. Yeah, I think, personally, interviewing folks, I think they're often surprised that I have a lot of questions prepared, and I've done — they're like, "Oh, you did research?" Yeah, that's important to me, right? I don't want to walk into a conversation and be unaware of what you do, and things like that. And so it's just — yeah, so I do spend a lot of time purposely trying to prepare for that, so that I ask them different things than they get, you know, in other places.

Walker Evans 29:06I think people like those kinds of interviews, though. Yeah. I mean, it's the Hot Ones, the Sean Evans style, where, like, he's sitting down with the interviewer and asking, like, a question from the past, and they're like, "What?" Yeah. Or, I guess, to go more Canadian, it's the Nardwuar approach. It's an art. Yeah, sure it is. Yeah, music journalism right there. It's like, "Here's an album that I know that you liked when you were 13," and they're like, "How did you know that?" Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's a gift. And it's for you.

Grant Walters 29:32Yeah. I love asking some of those questions that not catch them off guard, but, I think, make them think, where they go, "Positive. That's a good question." Yeah.

Walker Evans 29:40They'll remember that encounter.

Grant Walters 29:43And they really appreciate that. And that's been something that I've really tried to focus on doing. And because I'm a music geek, I mean, I love every part of, you know, the music-making process, and comedy as well. I love hearing about the creative process. And so, often, I find if I'm on a level with them, that they get a sense that I'm really into what they're doing, and that I really thought about it and I understand the craft a little bit, they're often much more responsive. And so sometimes it's the — the way to turn around, as you say, some of those more sort of bristly interviews into something that's a little bit more palatable, where by the end, they're like, "Okay, this was all right, thank you." Yeah, all right, well, good, I'm glad we got to that good place. There have been very few interviews that I've had that have not gone well. There's only been a couple where I've been like, I've got to cobble something out of this thing, I'm not sure what it's gonna look like. But I learned later on that they don't like doing interviews. And I'm like, yeah, your publicist shouldn't —

Walker Evans 30:41Yeah. What do you think? They could have just gotten off the phone on a bad interview, and then just been like, "Well, here goes another one," you know? So you never know when you're catching them.

Grant Walters 30:48I've had to really learn not to take it personally. I interviewed Patton Oswalt for the first time, and I mean, just really short answers. I mean, the whole interview took about nine minutes. And I got off the phone, and I was devastated, because I love him. Yeah. And I read later on, he doesn't like talking on the phone, he'd rather be in person or email. And I'm like, well, I could have done that. Yeah, you know, maybe not in person, but we could have done an email interview. And so you just kind of stand back, and your heart breaks a little bit, because I'm like, God, I admire him so much, and now I've got to put this article out and make it look like it was this fantastic interview, when it really stunk. I felt awful about it. And so, those have been few and far between, thankfully. It's good.

Walker Evans 31:31Just to circle back to music real quick — Music Columbus, formerly the Columbus Music Commission, they rebranded to Music Columbus. They're doing a survey right now, I don't know if you saw, we haven't shared some information — this is brand new, just within this week. They're running a survey throughout the month of November, mostly talking to musicians and people related in the industry — so promoters, venue owners, you know, anyone that works with bands, music, musicians, entertainers, in any kind of capacity. I think they're trying to just get, like, a grasp on where the community is right now, or to find out, like, what we're doing well and what we're not doing well within that realm. As someone who has been reporting on this for a while, are there things that you think we could be doing better as a city to support the music scene, either in terms of attendance, awareness, lack of venues, lack of just live music in random places?

Grant Walters 32:24Yeah, I've thought about this before, truly, because, you know, when I talk to venues, or talk to publicists and things like that, I've gotten quite a bit of information. I have a good friend who does publicity for Atlantic Records in New York, and so she's always been very kind to sort of share some insight with me. And, you know, it's really hard, because they're just out there trying to get as much information out as possible, and they strike out a lot too. And so, even a big publicity machine, you know, in New York, that's promoting stuff internationally, can still sort of struggle with that. And I don't know, I mean, I would love better communication, I think, between press and venues. That would be awesome. Because I feel like I get a lot of information from big publicity firms that are in LA and New York, Nashville, and I hear very little from local firms or local venues and things like that as well. And so I'm on some listservs, and I know when acts are coming, but I also don't know who to contact sometimes — like, finding somebody where I can get in and be like, "Can you get me an interview? Can I get this information?" Yeah, that's 80% of the battle in writing about music, is figuring out the right person to get to, so that you can access the artist at some point. So sometimes that's really hard. Also, the timing is really tough, too. Like, I'll get a notice that a band's coming in, in two days. Yeah. Be like, "We'd love to see the show, come and write a piece, do you want to do an interview?" And I'm like, yeah, this would have been great, like, two weeks ago. Yeah. And again, being only part-time and occasional, it's hard to map those things out. And sometimes you don't get any communication at all. And so sometimes we even do outreach, or I'll reach out to somebody at a venue or a PR firm or something like that, and I'll just get zero response. And it's just like, oh, okay, well then, I don't know what to do with that. And so, you know, it's hard sometimes. So I think that communicative piece is really important, where, you know, the local press — and certainly for the big outlets too, but also for us — like, if you want us to get to the venues and talk to people, we need to know what's going on. Yeah, you know, where people are. We need to know, probably because our writing staffs are not huge, and they're, you know, mostly not full-time. And, you know, how do you — if you want us to support you, how can we make that better? So I think that's certainly part of it. I think having a lay of the land of where venues are in the city, and what they do, and the kind of clientele they're trying to attract, and, you know, what artists they're looking to bring in — that's helpful as well. And so it's hard. Sometimes it's not understanding the criteria of how, you know, bands show up in Columbus, or music acts show up in Columbus. And for local folks, I often don't get a lot of pitches from local musicians either. And so I get tons more from — and I understand that, because there are PR machines that work for them.

Walker Evans 35:27Right. And so your average local band doesn't have a PR budget.

Grant Walters 35:31Is there a way where we can be more explicit on our behalf — yeah, Columbus Underground, or another outlet — of, like, "We want to support local artists, so here's an avenue in which you can send us music, or you can send us a pitch," you know, things like that. May not always be able to say yes, based on scheduling and things like that. But I mean, it would be nice to be able to figure that out. And sometimes that happens, but it's not very often.

Walker Evans 35:57Some great insight, and I'll definitely keep that in mind as we're trying to bring on some more freelancers, just to help connect those dots, I think, so not everything is so siloed.

Grant Walters 36:03Yeah, absolutely. And also, I think, you know, there are some local acts that are trying to break out into the larger sort of audience and things like that. And so sometimes they're not always focused on things like — CAAMP is a great example. You know, I had an interview with CAAMP, but I mean, they're now, you know, nationally known and are doing very, very well, and they're touring extensively and things like that. Twenty One Pilots is another one, like, you know, I heard nothing the last time I wanted to interview them. They were just like, yeah, they're not talking to anybody in the local press. And I was like, oh, that's weird. I mean, yeah, why wouldn't they? But I guess they don't have to, because, yeah, you know, they're now globally known and very successful. So I think there's just some of that stuff, where sometimes it's easy to miss, from either side. So, yeah.

Walker Evans 36:54So, a tradition with the Confluence Cast, too, is to always ask the guest a set of questions, a pair of questions, at the very end. Okay, great. What do you think Columbus is doing well, and what do you think Columbus is not doing well? Doesn't have to be in regards to music, journalism, book publishing, anything that we talked about — it could be anything on your mind. What are we doing well, as a city? Or you could start with not doing well.

Grant Walters 37:20Oh, well, I mean, I think all of this is hard, surprise. Things we're doing well: I think I'm liking what I'm seeing in terms of investing. I'll talk about the arts, and I think that there is an increasing investment in our arts scene. And I've seen things growing. And, you know, I used to be connected to the improv community; we now have two full-time theaters, open comedy venues. I mean, I know that we've talked a lot to the folks that work at the Attic, and the comedians that work there, and Don't Tell Comedy and things like that. So there are those things that I've seen that are really very cool. We're getting bigger festivals, we're getting bigger names coming through. So whatever is happening there — I mean, I think we're getting to a better place, where I think there are more concrete places for people to explore the arts in Columbus. So that's been very nice, and that's different than when I moved here, you know, 10 years ago. That's improved. What I don't think we're doing — can I say inclusion? Not — well, in lots of different ways. And so I think that we have a really culturally rich city, and I don't know how much the city is doing to really take advantage of that, to explore it, to connect people to it. Yeah. So I feel like our city feels very siloed in lots of different ways. And as it continues to grow, I don't know how that's going to change or anything like that.

Walker Evans 38:52I feel like the one thing — and I'm not trying to answer your question — I feel like the one thing people are willing to, like, venture outside their comfort zone with is food. Yeah. Like, they will go find that Somali restaurant on Morse Road, or that, like, you know, authentic taco truck out on the west side. Yes. But how do you get them to do that for cultural events, right, music events, theatrical events, everything else?

Grant Walters 39:15And I think that's a really important consideration, that I think, if we want to be a city that's, quote-unquote, cosmopolitan, and, you know, closer to things like Chicago — or, you know, if that's where — I think a lot of people crave to have us be a more exciting city in lots of different ways. And so that's part of getting there, right, is appreciating and supporting those diverse cultures and different venues for cultural enrichment and things like that. So I think that's important. We're not super great about preserving history here. And so visiting the UK was a really good reminder of that — you know, I went and touched a Roman wall. And, of course, our things are never going to be that old. But I think if you walk around Columbus, there are very few cues in terms of our heritage, and sort of where the city — or, if they're there, they've been buried, burned, you know, things like that, built over top. So I really think people need to learn about Columbus and where it originated, how it was created, both the difficult things and the productive things that built the city, to learn more about, you know, what does that mean for the future? How do we preserve that? So that's something I've always felt when I've come here, versus visiting other places that I think very much dig into that, and Columbus doesn't really talk a lot about it. I also think it needs to be comfortable with what it is. And I think a lot of people really rip their — you know, times, and I get frustrated living in Columbus. But, you know, I wish more people would appreciate it for what it is, and also for what it isn't. You know, we're not New York City, for a reason; we're not Chicago, for a reason; we're not Nashville; we're not Seattle, for a reason. And so, what are the reasons that we have to really appreciate what Columbus is, and how do we highlight that? I think that's a cultural project, you know, through the media. I don't know how we do it better. I mean, of course, you know, Brent and Jesse and folks do a really nice job with that for Columbus Underground, and other folks too. But a lot of times, I don't think we talk a lot about those aspects of our city's existence. And I don't know how to change that, necessarily. But, yeah, those are some things that I think about as a resident of Columbus. And, you know, I live in German Village, and so I see the history there every day, and it's very tangible. Yeah, but not so much for other parts of the city — and I know it's there. And so, you know, German Village is not the only historic neighborhood in Columbus, and it's one that everybody seems to like to visit, because, you know, we see people there every day, and that's great. But, you know, where are other places where you can seek out some of those really interesting pieces of history and culture? And I think all of those are things that I kind of think about.

Walker Evans 42:21Nice. Great answer, Grant. Thanks again for taking the time today.

Grant Walters 42:25Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Tim Fulton 42:40Thanks for listening to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite critic. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Phil Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.