Behind the Hyperloop Hype

Tim Fulton 0:12Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we try to answer the burning question: when is Columbus getting a Hyperloop? Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren spoke with Thea Ewing, the director of transportation and infrastructure development for the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission. They discussed the who, how, when, and what that needs to happen for us to get a Hyperloop. They discussed what it's going to be like to travel through a tube, what's holding Columbus back from mass transit, the importance of redundancies in technology, including transportation, and how we need to have realistic expectations around this change. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview.

Brent Warren 2:00Thea Ewing is speaking with us today. She is the director of transportation and infrastructure development for the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission. Did I get that right, Thea?

Thea Ewing 2:12Yeah, Brent.

Brent Warren 2:13Thanks, thanks for talking with me today. I really appreciate it.

Thea Ewing 2:17Oh, pleasure's all ours.

Brent Warren 2:19And just to kind of frame the conversation, we are gonna talk about the Hyperloop today, and I'm excited to talk about that. And, you know, there's a lot that MORPC does that we, that we could talk about, um, 'cause we cover a lot of the different topics that your organization is involved in. But I wanted to drill down into the Hyperloop, uh, especially just because I've been covering it pretty closely for, for the last few years, and also I'm still a bit of a Hyperloop skeptic. So I wanna kinda hash that out and go through it with you 'cause you know a lot about this, and you can maybe answer some of the questions I still have about, about this thing. But before you do that, I wanna take a couple steps back. I know not everybody is familiar with MORPC and the work that you do, so can you give us kind of a overview of what MORPC is and what, what your role is and what kind of projects you work on?

Thea Ewing 3:11Sure. Thanks, Brent. So MORPC, um, a really great way to describe them i- uh, us, uh, at MORPC is like a chamber of commerce for local government. Um, we have several members from across the region, almo- over 70 now, uh, local governments who basically are, are members and they pr- we provide services to them. Uh, sometimes it's in the way of guidance on various policy issues. Other times we're assisting their citizens with weatherizing their homes. Um, but in my case, um, we go after grants for federal funds for transportation projects, and, uh, we actually have a dedicated, uh, resource pool that comes into us through the Federal Highway Administration and Ohio Department of Transportation that we divvy up a- around the metropolitan planning area, which is the core area of, of the Columbus Central Ohio area, and, um, that's around $35 million a year. Nothing to really sneeze at, right? Uh, but ov- overall when it comes to federal funds, we plan the entire, um... It's approximately about a billion dollars a year that gets planned out with federal funds, whether they're under our umbrella or not, uh, in central Ohio. So we, we're kind of doing a little bit of planning work and a little bit of allocation of resources in the transportation arena. Um, all very forward-thinking. We look out as far as like 30 years in the future to think about how we're gonna line up all these projects, as well as, once they're getting closer to getting accomplished, making sure the funds are in the right accounts on the right days to start those projects. So, uh, that's really kind of the intricacies of my job. I can be working with COTA, ODOT, City of Columbus, and any of the other, um, local governments in, in the region on any of their transportation projects, uh, at w- as far out as 30 years from now or as th- they're gonna be happening tomorrow. So, uh, it's a great place to be. A lot of people don't realize there's even people who do what we do, uh, but we're here and we're here for your future.

Brent Warren 5:23Great. And can you talk... 'Cause I know you've done a lot of interesting things in your career previous to starting at MORPC. What led you to this job and, and what kind of is your background in general?

Thea Ewing 5:36Oh, thank you for asking. Um, I have a degree in public administration and urban and regional planning, um, Miami University, go RedHawks, uh, as well as a master's degree at Wright State of public administration as well. I started out actually doing some of this planning level work in the Clark County area, uh, reviewing applications for local governments to receive state funding for, um, multiple types of infrastructure projects, not just transportation. Water systems, even brownfield cleanups. Um, and then leveraged that experience, um- On to being director of that agency, and then ultimately to work with the state in brownfield cleanup, uh, in, for the development, uh, department or Development Services Agency, as it's known today. And, uh, through my relationships there and, uh, my knowledge, my previous knowledge of transportation, kind of the full package of infrastructure knowledge, uh, I was able to get in here at MORPC. Um, I have a great relationship with my boss, uh, William Murdock. He and I both worked at Development Services Agency. Uh, he trusts that what I bring to the table with transportation, um, and, um, we've been able to get a lot accomplished at MORPC together. But I would say we started that, uh, uh, building on that work, uh, dynamic at the state in the Brownfield arena, and it's just transferred on to transportation work. So really excited to continue on, uh, working with him and working with MORPC and Central Ohio. It's just such a great and collaborative community.

Brent Warren 7:12Now, there's one thing you didn't mention that I wanted to ask you about, 'cause when we spoke previously, you kind of mentioned as an aside that you had... You'll have to correct me on this. You had, like, run a small railroad line or something. Do I have that right?

Thea Ewing 7:27Yes. So that was, that was true. Um, so when I was the director of the Clark County Springfield Transportation Coordinating Committee, um, part of the role of the, of the, um, MPO there was also to manage the Port Authority. Um, and, um, I took on the Port Authority for a couple years. I actually ran a freight railroad. Um, it's called the West Central Ohio Port Authority Railroad. It's about 100 miles of track between Bellefontaine and West Jefferson. Uh, it branches off in areas like around Urbana, um, and on there. And, um, it was, a little bit of history, when Conrail was kind of, uh, un- disinvesting o- of- of their c- um, infrastructure in Ohio, several grain farmers in West Central Ohio said, "Hey, we still use that track. Uh, what, how are we gonna get our grain to market?" And so they contacted Clark County. Clark County worked with the other counties around them, and this was, like, maybe, like, the early '90s, late '80s. And, uh, they went and bought this line from Conrail, um-

Brent Warren 8:40Wow

Thea Ewing 8:40... at that time, 'cause Conrail was just gonna get rid of it. And so, uh, my old boss told me the story of how they literally drove to Pennsylvania and paid them in a check, uh, that was written by the State of Ohio at the time, uh, to, to, uh, actually buy that for that purpose. And then, uh, keeping that, um, profitable or at least, um, solvent was part of my duties as the j- uh, secretary treasurer of the Port Authority under my role at the MPO there. You kind of wear m- in small government, you wear many hats.

Brent Warren 9:12Right.

Thea Ewing 9:13Uh, so it was a really good experience. I had to learn how to sell, um, uh, the tax credits. There's tax credit, um, s- that come to railroads for improvements. You can sell those as a way of, uh, getting revenue to do other investments on that railroad, going after s- different set of grants completely for rail, um, uh, as versus the, uh, federal highway and transit that I'm used to. So yeah, it's really diversified my experience and, um, definitely was invaluable. I got to do things like, uh, ride a high rail, which is whenever they take one of their trucks up on the track and, uh, they have the wheels for the rail in, installed on the bottom of, like, a, a big, like a Yukon or something, and, uh, then they just mount them down. And the coolest thing about that, I mean, as a driver of a vehicle, we're so used to the steering wheel. You don't have... Like, they- they basically tape that down, uh, and you just hit gas or brake, gas and brake.

Brent Warren 10:12Oh.

Thea Ewing 10:12I was like, "What are you doing to the steering wheel?" They're like, "Yeah, we just latch it in so the, so the wheels don't get in the way of the, the rail wheels." I was like, "That's cool." So-

Brent Warren 10:21So you're-

Thea Ewing 10:22Yeah

Brent Warren 10:22... you were, like, driving an SUV on the railroad track? Is that what...

Thea Ewing 10:26Yeah. That's-

Brent Warren 10:26Wow

Thea Ewing 10:26... that's a high rail. Yeah.

Brent Warren 10:28Wow.

Thea Ewing 10:28That's like a... It's basically what they do to inspect tracks, uh, for, for projects. Uh, and because I had, during that time, uh, I'd written several grants to do some improvements for that railroad, I had to go out with some of the inspectors, um, for the pre-construction, um, activities in order to get k- you know, to get contractors on the project to- to write up the scope the best way. And, uh, yeah, so I got to, I got to experience that. Um, yeah, I mean, there was definitely some really neat opportunities that you only get to experience working with rail. Like, in my other transportation jobs I've gotten to do some really cool stuff, but that was one of them, was working with the rail. I'm, I'm probably just, you know, another geeky rail nerd when it comes down to it.

Brent Warren 11:16Yeah. And I, I think it... I mean, I think a lot of us are, so...

Thea Ewing 11:20Yeah.

Brent Warren 11:20But I, I think it came up, uh, because we were talking about passenger rail, and you mentioned just in passing that you had this experience, but that really gives you a, kind of a much more tangible knowledge of, like, how railroads work than maybe you would have otherwise, I would imagine.

Thea Ewing 11:38Yeah, certainly from the freight side, and even the smaller freight side, trying, you know, the... because a lot of the, like, Norfolk Southern or CSX, they're mo- they're moving big product for big companies who really know how to access, uh, them. For the smaller short line, I, I realized what the struggles were after I learned that job. Uh, and I mean, passenger wasn't even in, in our purview, so I can't even pretend to know all of the ins and outs of that. But I've done a lot of, uh, um, research and, uh, of course worked with my colleagues who are in places that are doing passenger rail, as well as just fully understanding how rail works from that experience, uh, definitely added to it. Um, and, uh, why... I mean, at least I understand why a freight railroad, um, is challenged by another- Um, party trying to use their track, right? I definitely get that. So, um, I maybe come at it with a little bit more experience than some, but not... I'm never gonna claim to be an expert.

Brent Warren 12:40Right.

Thea Ewing 12:40I'm still learning.

Brent Warren 12:43Well, um, actually, I was gonna touch on this later after we talked about the Hyperloop, but since you brought it up, I know there are a lot of challenges to... It's, I think I had asked you about in Florida there's a private company building... has already built and is operating a passenger rail line there-

Thea Ewing 13:04Mm-hmm

Brent Warren 13:05... and it's actually the same company that's doing, or it's connected to the company that's doing the Hyperloop or that wants to do the Hyperloop. Is that right?

Thea Ewing 13:13Yeah.

Brent Warren 13:13Yeah.

Thea Ewing 13:14Yeah. Uh-

Brent Warren 13:14It's called the Virgin-

Thea Ewing 13:15Virgin Train

Brent Warren 13:16... like Virgin Hyperloop. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um, but I had asked you, like, okay, what... why don't we see that kind of activity in Ohio, or at least, like, interest in it from a part private company coming, coming in and building a passenger rail system here? And I think part of that has to do, you explained, with the rights to the, to the rail lines. Is that right?

Thea Ewing 13:41That is true. So, uh, they are, uh, interested though. We do, we, we've had at least an initial conversation, actually more, with more than one private sector over the six-year period I've been in this position, I need to caveat that, that, that there is interest. Um, but I think that's the, the kinda, uh, ball of yarn that the person talking to me most of the time is like, "Okay, what's... You know, how am I gonna get past all that?" Um, so for, for Brightline, uh, in Florida, they were able to acquire the track, so kinda like we did at Conrail or with the Conrail track with West Central Ohio Port Authority. Uh, we bought it and then nobody else can lay a claim to it, and it's a done deal, right?

Brent Warren 14:29Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 14:29Um, so really there's nothing on our corridor that's like up for sale like that, um, right now, but that doesn't mean the future won't hold that. So then you've kind of go, uh, need to use the federal regulations around sharing track, um, and then that becomes a little bit more of a, a back and forth between the freight railroads. And I think, uh, it... both sides of that conversation struggle, um, with making that work. Um, if you... I mean, for instance, I mean, we kn- we have passenger rail that do- does come through the state of Ohio down to Cincinnati and up in Cleveland and Toledo. Um, the one thing you can say about those is they come in the middle of the night. They're not really super reliable timeframes, and the reason why is because they're trying to work around the freight railroad schedule. So, um, being able to have consistent, um, timeframes, uh, lead to the success of a passenger system, so owning the actual track is important to make something like that work. Um-

Brent Warren 15:29Um-

Thea Ewing 15:30Doesn't mean it da- ha- it doesn't have to be like that, but it, it will be a predictor of success for sure.

Brent Warren 15:37Okay. And this may have been before you were with MORPC, but just to go back, 'cause how were they going to do this with the 3C proposal, which was a proposal to connect Cleveland, Columbus, and Cincinnati with passenger rail, and it even had lined up federal funding, and then, uh, Governor Kasich, when he was elected, he, he sort of killed it. Um, but how... Just to go back one step, how were they gonna do that in terms of lining up or competing with the freight trains on that line?

Thea Ewing 16:12Well, yeah, they were taking the very initial steps to get that off the ground. So I think that was one of the struggles in, in this process and why, in... I'm sorry, in that particular process that proved to give, um, the governor at the time h- um, uh, the ammunition to, to kill that project, was because they were trying to work around the freight rails. They were trying to work with various levels of track and connecting all those pieces in those initial phases, which meant that some areas were gonna be slower, that the overall time of the line, um, seemed, um, unreasonable to kind of the average ear. Uh, there was other things to ca- take into account, like you'd be able to work on the train, not having to stop to go to the bathroom or other things that people don't account for on trips like that. Um, but all in all, um, that, that was the factor, was not owning all of that line, and you're not going to. That alignment long, it's just, it's gonna be a rarity. And to have, um, class one level service, which means it's built for, uh, higher speeds, um, like, you know, so that it, you could go over, like, 35 miles per hour and things like that. So that's the reason why you would want Norfolk Southern or CSX in the mix, right? Uh, because they maintain those tracks at those levels. So-

Brent Warren 17:33Ah, right

Thea Ewing 17:34... so I think, you know, that's something that can evolve, too, right? Um, say, say you get a service like that off the ground, and I think this was... I, I, I was tangential. I mean, being in Springfield, we were one of the stops on the 3C.

Brent Warren 17:46Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 17:47Um, that is during the time I also started working at the state and I was starting to work with areas around transportation-related development, including cleaning up brownfields around this, you know, and then that all fell apart, and I worked on some other stuff. But that, that was... I was involved, but not on the corridor work at the time. Um, and you know, that's, uh, try- trying to figure out those pieces and how it evolved over time was the key here, and that was the story, and I don't think the general public is just very patient. Uh, I mean, I'm, I'm working long-range planning. People, you know, have come to events where, or, uh, public involvement opportunities for Hyperloop and said, "Where do I get my ticket?" I'm like, "Well, you, you know, like, you might get it in 50 years from now or 30 years from now." You know, so it's, it, it... I work in a much longer timeframe than most, and so I think the patience of the general public when we go to them to talk to them about their future reality has to be a factor, and, um, understanding that this is not something we're talking about for tomorrow, but certainly is attainable if we keep working towards it.

Brent Warren 18:58Right. Okay. That's a good place-

Thea Ewing 19:00Same for-

Brent Warren 19:00... to start in.

Thea Ewing 19:02Same for 3C.

Brent Warren 19:03S- yeah.

Thea Ewing 19:03That's the way that would've started.

Brent Warren 19:05Yeah.

Thea Ewing 19:05Right.

Brent Warren 19:06Right. And the ideas w- would've improved and gotten faster as it went, but yeah, it, it never started, so The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit MORPC.org. Okay, that's a good, uh, segue into the Hyperloop. Um, do you wanna give just an overview? Because I, um, feel like it's not something that everybody knows about. Like, what exactly is a Hyperloop, and how does it work?

Thea Ewing 20:01Awesome. So I, I love telling people about Hyperloop. It's a super-fast way of travel that's being developed where you're w- you're in a pod inside a vacuum tube, and that, uh, pod can move at more than 600 miles per hour because it's levitating on a magnetic, uh, track, uh, across, uh, the rail. And what's unique about that opportunity is that you... the speed, it, it has no resistance, 'cause then you're vacuum inside that tube. So it creates this opportunity where you can just kinda free flow until you need to stop, and then that's what created by the magnet to bring, bring that pod kind of back down. The levitation isn't, like, a huge amount of space, but it, it's enough to kinda keep that, that momentum going, um, which also creates the opportunity for, uh, this mode of travel to not actually have that much, um, energy usage. 'Cause there's kinda the get off the ground part, and then the stopping part, but really in between, because there's not very much resistance at all, you're just kinda floating at, at that speed that, uh, the initial jolt got you up to. Um, so that's very simplified. I'm no engineer. I listen to a lot of these wonks who are in this, um, uh, field, uh, all the time, but that's my basic understanding of it. But the thoughts of it, I mean, basically are that you can travel inside this tube where there's no intersections like, like in a car or even in a train, where you're not gonna be hitting other... you know, there's no chances of crashes that are, um, head-on or angular. Um, and, uh, you're, you're safe from that, but you're moving at airspl- airplane speeds. Um, so the thoughts of that are just amazing and can truly change the way we think of local, uh, in the future.

Brent Warren 22:08Mm-hmm. And from the Columbus perspective, the... I mean, I started covering this, I think, in 2017 when there was something called, I think it was called the Global Challenge. Do you wanna start the story there and say... 'Cause that specifically, MORPC came in at that point, if I understand it right, and said, "Hey, we have a corridor that might work for this." Is that right?

Thea Ewing 22:32Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, the story starts a little before that. In, like, 2013, 2014, we completed a feasibility study for passenger rail between Chicago and Columbus. And we kept working that. We worked with all the mayors along the line. They were very committed to advancing it, but we weren't getting much traction. We were going after grants, getting locals to match it, going after the F- FRA money, and we knew we needed to continue doing environmental review processes in order to see that through. And, um, along the same time we were hitting some, like, rough patches on the passenger rail conversation to Chicago, this Global Challenge popped up. And we had all, as geeky planner r- rail buff types in the office, we were like, "Well, if there's this opportunity, what could we do with the work we've already done in pitching this idea to this company who's interested in corridors around the world?" So we started putting together, um, a kind of a pitch, a paper about, um, the, um, prop- you know, the properties around central Ohio that would be the reasons why you would wanna connect to us. Things like the population growth and the job market and, uh, the education scene, and why connecting that to Chicago would be very important. And they're a lot of the things that we had already studied in our rail, rail, um, feasibility study. So we were able to pull all that stuff together, and then we also at the same time knew the state was partial owner of the line between Columbus and the state border near Pittsburgh. Uh, and so we contemplated, like, what if we made this a three-city situation? We're connecting Pittsburgh, Columbus, and Chicago, and, um, that's kinda how the whole concept was born. Uh, we pitched it in there. There was, like, 2,600 applications from around the world, different corridors. Uh, in the end, we were one of the 10 that Virgin thought, "Wow, that's a really awesome opportunity." Um, so we took advantage of it, and, uh, here we are. We've, we finished a feasibility study on Hyperloop recently. We s- still continue to advance with passenger rail, um, doing environmental study, uh, work to advance passenger rail, 'cause we don't know where this is all gonna end quite yet, so we wanna keep both balls rolling. Um, and, um- We've been talking to Hyperloop about testing in the this, in the Central Ohio area, uh, the next version of their product. And, um, I'm currently, and, uh, you can see the bags under my eyes if you were doing the, the, uh, video of this. Uh, I've been writing a proposal for a USFR- USDOTFRA, Federal Railroad Administration, uh, proposal for MAGlev funding, um, for a corridor between, uh, downtown and the airport. Basically, it would be the first, uh, in-depth, uh, preliminary engineering and, um, uh, environmental analysis work done on this entire corridor. Like, the deeper level set you would need in order to do the detailed design for building out a corridor like that.

Brent Warren 25:49Okay. And that-

Thea Ewing 25:49So it'd be the first segment

Brent Warren 25:51... the first segment of the Hyperloop you're talking about?

Thea Ewing 25:54Yes.

Brent Warren 25:55Okay.

Thea Ewing 25:55Yeah.

Brent Warren 25:56Okay. And is that the same as... When I talked with some people from, from the company Virgin Hyperloop One about this, they talk a lot about something they call a certification track, which is I think the, the first step in building something that would sort of be a full-scale test of the technology, and it would get all the, enable them to get all of the safety approvals from all of the levels of government they would need. Is that, is that right?

Thea Ewing 26:28So, um, we're kind of working two different angles at once.

Brent Warren 26:31Okay.

Thea Ewing 26:32Uh, on the certification track we're focused in the Northwestern Central Ohio area, um, where maybe a lot of other testing of vehicles and, um, tech, transportation technologies are happening. So we're, we're focusing out that direction. Uh, for this, um, this is continued work on the corridor. So this wouldn't be test. This would be, uh, advancing a real project that would need to be built, so.

Brent Warren 26:59Okay. Okay. I want to talk about... I mean, I think the, from my perspective, the Hyperloop, it just got so much attention so quickly.

Thea Ewing 27:10Mm-hmm.

Brent Warren 27:10And I think one of the points you've made is that this actually helped in some ways, and I don't think a lot of people realize this, the passenger rail, the work needed to continue the passenger rail conversation was getting stalled out. And the Hyperloop being brought in and talking about that same corridor, Columbus to Chicago, and maybe adding in Pittsburgh, actually enabled some life to be breathed into the passenger rail process. Is that right?

Thea Ewing 27:40Yeah. It, it certainly did. Uh, we, we didn't have any takers, uh, to help us advance the, um, environmental process for the passenger rail connection to Chicago, and that's what tipped us towards this Hyperloop direction. But then when we did the feasibility study, we also picked up an environmental component of passenger rail, knowing that that would be, um, good information for the Hyperloop side too, but also recognizing that's not a certified technology in the United States. So it's almost like we had a variable and a control in-

Brent Warren 28:16Mm-hmm

Thea Ewing 28:16... uh, in our, in our study process. So we're still continuing down one path while we're starting another path, and they both, uh, help each other. The other thing we did, by connecting to Pittsburgh and our environmental, um, components that we completed, um, for passenger rail went on to Pittsburgh, um, from Chicago, and, um, that was not in the initial feasibility study for rail either. So we not only s- continued to study the environmental analysis of the rail corridor, we extended it on to another ma- major metropolitan area. So, I mean, regardless of what, um, comes of this work as far as which mode, um, we're prepared either way.

Brent Warren 29:05Okay. So p- for people who think the Hyperloop is kind of a dream technology and they don't see that happening, you can kind of reassure them by saying, "Oh, wait. Passenger rail, which is an established technology, that still could happen. That's not dead for this corridor either."

Thea Ewing 29:25Right. And it may actually be that it's a more feasible option for legs of this, right? Like, maybe there's a certain, uh, as- Like, maybe one whole leg... I don't wanna pitch exactly what areas would make sense for what because I don't think we're really at that point. But there may be a point where Hyperloop can never be built in that area. It just wouldn't make sense. So then passenger rail would make sense, and those people connecting by, via passenger rail may, may then be able to access the Hyperloop and still speed up their travel into another city, um, uh, by, by reaching it with, with passenger rail. So there's a lot of different ways you could look at it. Um, there... I mean, there might be areas where they both could be used in tandem because one is more of a local service and one is more of a, a long, a longer regional service.

Brent Warren 30:18Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 30:19I mean, I mean, you have that in Chicago with the various types of commuter rail where some are going out to, you know, over into, like, um, Gary, Indiana, whereas others are just right there around the local. So if you think about that same concept on a bigger scale, um, you know, the, the types, maybe the technology on the exterior of those vehicles isn't the different, but the, the amenities on the inside are different.

Brent Warren 30:44Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 30:44Right? And it's, they're different products in the end. And I mean, we, we could be talking about that same concept with this.

Brent Warren 30:52Mm-hmm. Do you think... You mentioned people's, uh, conception of how long it takes to get these kind of things done is sometimes a little unrealistic. Um, I... Do you feel like with Hyperloop it's even more so? Because I, I feel like people- They saw the initial wave of headlines that said, "Oh, you can get to Chicago in 30 minutes from Columbus." And then they're kind of like, "Oh, that would be cool. When's that gonna get built?" But then there's like 100 steps in between. I mean, I'm always pointing out to people that Hy- uh, Virgin Hyperloop One, they built a test track in the desert, but that's a limited... I mean, it's like the last I checked, that was like 500 meters long. It went in a straight line. No people went into that when they tested.

Thea Ewing 31:38Right.

Brent Warren 31:38They don't do it with people. I mean, that's a very, um, preliminary kind of, "Oh, this is how this would work." That's not like, "Oh, we've already done this. Now we just need to build it." I mean, there's, there's a lot of steps involved before this technology is even proven for that kind of a scale project, right?

Thea Ewing 31:58Right. That was just a proof of concept.

Brent Warren 32:00Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 32:01So yeah, I mean, there's quite a bit that's gonna go into this. I mean, we, we had some big news in the last week. I know you're gonna ask me more about that in a little bit here, uh, about how this mode is gonna get regulated and, uh, kind of establishing some of those standards like we do for our roads, like we do for our railroad and our water here in the United States, that Hyperloop has to come under those same levels of scrutiny to even start as a project. Um, so there's, there's that piece that hasn't been answered. Um, so that, that's, uh... I, I never saw myself in a, uh... When I started, you know, in, in, uh, undergrad or even as a planner working, I never thought I would be working with a technology that wasn't yet built, uh, or working to do, uh, education with our legislators and with the USDOT about opportunities to pursue a new technology. But we're in that role, not just with Hyperloop, but with all kinds of transportation technologies in central Ohio. So, uh, it's, it's definitely an exciting place to be. So we've got that big hurdle to go over. Uh, and then, you know, I think the thing that people don't understand about transportation projects that any transport, big transportation project takes about 20 years. They just don't realize what's going on behind the scenes, right?

Brent Warren 33:27Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 33:27Columbus Crossroads, I was at one of the kickoffs where some of the construction is going on downtown last summer. Um-

Brent Warren 33:34Mm-hmm. Give, give a overview of what is Columbus Crossroads for people who don't know.

Thea Ewing 33:39All the improvements on I-71 and I-70 through the inner belt of downtown. Um, and they're in multiple stages, multiple phases. Um, and we're in the midst of two, two of them right now, but there's, uh, some that have been previously happened as far back as, uh, let's see, 2014, 2013. And we're still talking, you know, that we could be doing some of this work out 10 years from now at this point. So, um, so 'cause, uh, most recently one of the projects got pushed out another year. So I think that what people don't understand, you know, Jack Marchbanks, the current director of ODOT at the time whenever they started doing the studies for the inner belt improvements nearly 20 years ago now, was at the district office. And he shared with the audience at this kickoff last summer, like, "I started this work 19 years ago," you know? And, um, that's, that is the pace of transportation planning, transportation engineering. And it's not even about getting the work done, but it's also about getting the funding lined up, right-

Brent Warren 34:53Mm-hmm

Thea Ewing 34:53... and making these things fall in. And then making sure that, like, the environmental analysis you did and the engineering you did still current on the day that you go to kick off the project.

Brent Warren 35:04Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 35:04Because you have to do some of that stuff so far in advance. So there's a lot of, a lot of steps to a process that people don't even see, and they just take, take, uh, for granted on our roadways today. Um, so, uh, I would say with the new technology and the hype around the beginning of it, it's getting exposed how long that process is.

Brent Warren 35:27Mm.

Thea Ewing 35:28Uh, so I guess my bottom line on this is, Brent, that don't fool yourself. Every transportation project takes a long time.

Brent Warren 35:37Yeah.

Thea Ewing 35:37Ask COTA.

Brent Warren 35:39Right. Well, I also, I think a lot of people look around and see what, what's been built in the last, you know, 50 years, and it's mostly highways, right? I mean, those highways-

Thea Ewing 35:49Yeah

Brent Warren 35:50... they do take a long time. But also if you're kind of been following this stuff, you see that eventually they get built, whereas we haven't seen much built that's not a highway or that's not a car-based transportation. Is that fair to say?

Thea Ewing 36:07Yeah. That is definitely fair to say. And I think, I mean, one of the things that we have traditionally had, I wouldn't say working against us, but it's not been something we've had to address, is a highly dense population, um, growth that's at such an exponential rate that, uh, mass transit is, uh, is something we're gonna have to have or people are gonna be sitting in cars for hours getting to and from work. Um, so it's not been a hindrance to our market yet. Yet.

Brent Warren 36:42Right.

Thea Ewing 36:43But-

Brent Warren 36:43Because it's still fairly easy to get around in a car in Columbus-

Thea Ewing 36:47Right

Brent Warren 36:47... and the region. Yeah.

Thea Ewing 36:49Yeah. And I mean, at this point, all we can hope for is to at least keep our commutes about the same as what they are today moving forward. We don't wanna hurt them anymore, but I don't think there's much we can do to help them. Um, but we're running out of land to add more highways. Um, and with the, um, growth that's anticipated of up to a million more people or being to a region of 3 million by the year 2050, as we've identified in our Insight 2050 report at MORPC, um- We are built out in a transportation system. I mean, what we're doing now are improvements not so much for capacity, but for safety. Uh, some, some like capacity and just the overall, um, being able to accommodate as many people as, as we can, uh, in a modern system. Um, but that modern system now is gonna have to include opportunities like, um, better commuter services for mass transit. Um, and I will say our friends at Columbus and COTA, and we're working alongside them planning for the LinkUS, uh, local, uh, transit, um, improvements on corridors is definitely much needed because in, you know, I guess 2050, we're looking at, you know, the next 20 to 30 years at this point, um, we're gonna need something like that. And, and create opportunities for everybody, not just people who own cars.

Brent Warren 38:24Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 38:24Right? Or can drive a car. Um, we have a lot of folks who are aging. Um, we have young people, more and more young people who need to be able to get around. Um, so being able to create a city with world-class infrastructure elements is gonna be very important as we grow. As more people move here, they've, they've come from maybe another part of the world where they had better transit amenities or better mass transit. Maybe it wasn't even as good of a, a community in general.

Brent Warren 38:56Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 38:57But they had mass transit opportunities and were able to get around. And they come here and it's not as good, right? And we've got, we've gotta make that better. We have to be the place where people wanna be, and we have to have all of the amenities that they need in order to be successful here, because that's what we want, is a, a prosperous region, and we support, uh, all the efforts in our region to do... to be a part of creating that prosperous region.

Brent Warren 39:21One of the things that I think MORPC has done, 'cause I've read through the, the reports that you've made and the research you've done about specifically that Chicago-Columbus-Pittsburgh corridor. I feel like you've ma- and maybe this isn't getting through 'cause everybody just hears Hyperloop and they wanna talk about what it's gonna be like to be in a tube going 600 miles an hour.

Thea Ewing 39:44Yeah.

Brent Warren 39:44But you've made the case that something, either passenger rail or the Hyperloop, something besides the current options which are driving on the highway or taking a plane, there's gonna be a real demand for something else i- throughout that corridor. Looking at the population growth along the corridor and the changing demographics and just the future of transportation that you're kinda making the case that some, some alternatives are gonna be necessary going forward.

Thea Ewing 40:17Yes. Um, definitely the gr- I mean, we're gonna be seeing substantial growth in Columbus. Chicago's gonna be seeing it. Uh, Fort Wayne, um, uh, Gary, uh, over to Pittsburgh, there's, they're all seeing some level of growth. Um, and even in places who may not see, uh, growth in population, like Lima, they're anticipating to see a growth in employment opportunities.

Brent Warren 40:46Mm.

Thea Ewing 40:46And actually, that's been a trend in Ohio for a while, is we see these opportunities show up in areas outside our major urban centers, maybe a medium-sized urban center like, like Lima or smaller. Or even a, a rural area, and there's no way to get to the jobs, right? And so that's the kinds of things we're seeing. And creating a line where you can kinda get to those places, uh, where those jobs are means you're creating access to jobs for people who may live in the city, or creating access to education and health opportunities in the city for people who live in rural areas, right? So, uh, we've definitely thought through a lot of those, um, pieces about what this could mean for the way we live our life if you had that Hyperloop a- access, the speed side of it. Passenger rail, I mean, it could definitely be a factor, um, being able to access those things, but without the speed component you're losing some of that, um, ability to create regular commutes on a line like that.

Brent Warren 41:50Mm-hmm. Um, but it's not, I mean, it's not all about just commutes. Some of it is just having other options for transportation. I mean, you think about kind of having resiliency as we're finding out we've not always been great at predicting what's gonna happen.

Thea Ewing 42:10No.

Brent Warren 42:10Uh, things change a lot in a short amount of time. Um, and I would say you'd almost, like, you... at MORPC you've built the case that it's good to have other ways to get between major cities in a region besides an airplane or a car, right?

Thea Ewing 42:29Yeah. I mean, redundancy is an important piece of almost all technologies, and that's true in a transportation system as well. I mean, air travel is a great opportunity, but it has its risks with weather im- impacting it. So does, uh, you know, a car's a great opportunity for certain dri- drive lengths and certain types of travel or certain reasons for travel, right? Mm, traveling in a large group, for example, or you're having to carry a lot of baggage with you or mo- you know. Uh, but then once you get into, say, like, say you're driving to Chicago. Once you get into the city in a car, what do you do with the car? You don't even need the car, right?

Brent Warren 43:07Mm.

Thea Ewing 43:08Depending on what you're gonna be doing. So we don't currently have something that helps with that piece of it. And then if you fly into Chicago it's maybe a short flight, but you wait at the airport here for maybe an hour to get through, and get... And then once you get over there you go through this whole process to get out of the airport and into the city.

Brent Warren 43:24Right.

Thea Ewing 43:24What if that wasn't a factor anymore, right?

Brent Warren 43:27Mm-hmm.

Thea Ewing 43:27You know, so, so, you know, being able to create more modal options to suit all the needs that we have. Right now we, we're limited to a certain level. This would help expand those options. Passenger rail would do the same too, you know what I mean? It's not, it, it's not everybody needs to fly. I mean, they don't, maybe they don't need the time, they just need to get there maybe at a similar speed as a car, but they, once they get there they don't really need the car. So passenger rail might be the better option, or maybe they wanna stop somewhere in between and take a break in between time, and this will allow them to do that. So I think, um, there's- Creating that redundancy and the, the truth in how you develop any technology, any type of utility, uh, that's true here too.

Brent Warren 44:14Mm-hmm. Okay, I think we should probably wrap up the, the, the talk here. But I, I do wanna kind of... If you had a closing message about the Hyperloop, do you think people should be optimistic that this technology is gonna be developed and we could actually see this in the region? Or is it more just something that we should be ready for in case everything works out and it, and it's a technology that, that is sort of, um, developed and, and works?

Thea Ewing 44:46So I think yes to everything you just said. Um, and I will go so far as to say if it is further developed, if it is a technology that, that moves to the market, that this region will play a role in it. Um, we're, we seem very committed to transportation, um, technology development here. We definitely have all of our cards on the table to be a part of developing this technology. Um, and I feel like we are poised to help this one get off the ground. Um, will that mean that we'll eventually be able to utilize it as part of our network too? Um, that's, that's what the original intention was, but I feel like it's also we've moved to exploring this new space too. But regardless, if this becomes, uh, something viable, I think it will have its role in Central Ohio, whether it be opportunity for jobs creating it or opportunities to use it. Um, and I think hopefully both.

Brent Warren 45:55Mm-hmm. And just to follow up on that, what's the next sort of test for this for Central Ohio? Are we gonna hear about anything soon? Are there... I know you have proposals out there for these different pieces and parts. Um, what can we look forward to next, uh, with the Hyperloop and with this corridor?

Thea Ewing 46:16Yeah, so we're currently working with Virgin on a proposal, and it's kind of a back and forth conversation right now between them, us, and the state about bringing a certification center to Central Ohio, primarily in that northwestern area. So I think before the end of the year that we should have something to say about that. Maybe it's gonna take a little longer. COVID's put a, an interesting wrinkle in things-

Brent Warren 46:46Mm-hmm

Thea Ewing 46:47... as far as just timing. I don't feel like it's impacted the overall long-term vision, but definitely even in how we communicate, it's changed things a little bit. Um, so I think there's that side. And then as far as advancing a project, regardless of whether we're in the running for developing this project for testing it and being the certification center for the United States, we're still advancing a project, and that's the Maglev proposal I'm putting in this Friday to the Federal Railroad Administration, which would be the first segment of the Midwest Connect, um, Corridor to get full environmental review and, um, d- conceptual preliminary design work done. So basically we get all the way up to the point of the final, like, drawings for construction. Um, and then we would sit here. At the end of that one, we would be basically waiting for certification in the United States to move forward to the next phase. So-

Brent Warren 47:47Mm-hmm

Thea Ewing 47:48... um, so fingers crossed on both of them, but one of them would be amazing.

Brent Warren 47:53Okay.

Thea Ewing 47:53Um, and, uh, frankly both of them would just be out of this world.

Brent Warren 47:59Great. Well, we'll look forward to, to hearing about what happens with those.

Thea Ewing 48:03Awesome. Well, really excited to share all this with you, Brent. Um, one thing you didn't ask me about, but I just wanna make clear, um, is that th- there's been some exciting news in the last couple weeks with the USDOT and the non... I'm gonna s- I'm gonna call it the new and emerging transportation technologies. Nontraditional and emerging transportation technologies. That's... It's, it's called the NET Council, uh, for the USDOT. They made this big announcement around pathways to transportation of the future. Uh, it included a lot of guidance around Hyperloop, and one of the things they did was identify that the Federal Railroad Administration would now be the oversight agency for Hyperloop. That I know sounds like a bunch of bureaucratic blah, blah, blah, but let me just tell you that is a door or a key that unlocks a door that's been locked for a little while.

Brent Warren 48:58Okay.

Thea Ewing 48:59Um, so I think you're gonna see some more momentum around the Hyperloop conversation. It also addresses some other things around aerial, uh, drones and some other technologies as well, but Hyperloop was a big focus of, of this particular announcement. And, uh, what I gave you was primarily the thing that impacts us the most with this project. So, um, I feel like, um, we may see, uh, a little bit more menum- mo- more momentum around, um, this project now that we have an identified oversight agency at the federal government.

Brent Warren 49:34Okay, so now we have... There's somebody in place who is actually going to set the rules about how Hyperloop will be regulated going into the future. Is that right?

Thea Ewing 49:44Right.

Brent Warren 49:44Okay. Great.

Thea Ewing 49:45Right. And that's... And that would, you know, internally, it... And, I mean, well, it's kind of external, but internally government, whenever I would talk to my, uh, colleagues at our DOT or at the USDOT, uh, the f- one of the first questions in this conversation was, "Who's the cognizant agency?" Which basically means, "Who do you answer to with this project?" And I was like- No, but maybe we'll break the mold and make them figure it out.

Tim Fulton 50:15Okay.

Thea Ewing 50:15Well, guess what? They figured it out and we didn't have to go that route. So I'm super excited that that came out because that honestly checks a lot of boxes for people who were otherwise at a point where they were like, "I don't know what to do with this, and I don't know what to do." So now, and then that also, um, allowed a certain grant funding to go towards Hyperloop projects that in the past were not eli- were not at least specifically, uh, listed as, uh, Hyperloop being an eligible use of the funds. So yeah, this is a big deal. Um, and I think we've gotta be ripe and ready to take advantage of, of this opportunity.

Tim Fulton 50:56Great. Well, thanks so much for talking with me today, Thea. I really appreciate it.

Thea Ewing 51:01Thank you, Brett. Look forward to hearing this online.

Tim Fulton 51:14Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information about what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite commuter. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.