Architecture & Design Firm JBAD

Tim Fulton 00:13Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are talking architecture and development in Columbus with the principal of architecture and design firm JBAD, Jonathan Barnes. We discussed how architecture firms work, how projects come into fruition, the importance of relationships and a diversity of experience, choosing who to work with, the unique aspects of the Columbus real estate market, the issues that should be kept in mind as Columbus continues to grow, and whether we're doing a good job of addressing those issues. You can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive Central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here virtually with Jonathan Barnes, the owner of JBAD architecture and design firm in downtown Columbus, Ohio. Mr. Barnes, how are you, sir? Good, thank you. First of all, tell me about JBAD and yourself and your work.

Jonathan Barnes 02:17Well, there's a lot to say there. But we've been here in Columbus — the years just keep racking up. Twenty-eight now, I think. So I started the firm when I returned to Columbus, where I'm from, in the early '90s. I was coming back from working in Italy for about three years. Moved back to Columbus — decided to do that as opposed to Chicago, where I came from on my way out of the country — and taught for a little bit, and then started the practice back then.

Tim Fulton 02:59Where'd you grow up?

Jonathan Barnes 03:00I grew up here in Columbus.

Tim Fulton 03:00Where's your high school?

Jonathan Barnes 03:00Upper Arlington. A very cozy suburb.

Tim Fulton 03:00Your Golden Bear.

Jonathan Barnes 03:00That's right.

Tim Fulton 03:10That's good. We just want the context. That's it. And tell me about the specialty of the firm, and what you guys do.

Jonathan Barnes 03:20Well, we've done a lot over the years, and we've specialized in different areas at different times, depending on our interest, our expertise, and the real estate market, I suppose. I would say, for a good part of the history of the firm, we've specialized in mixed-use residential, as a short term. So to most people, that means apartments, but it also means office, it also means retail, and all sorts of things. But mostly it's urban infill projects — a lot of apartments and condos, but a pretty broad base beyond that too. So banks and schools and office and art galleries and all sorts of things. But they all have something in common, I would say, for the most part, to a large degree — they're urban in one way or another.

Tim Fulton 04:27And I am familiar with a couple of different business models of things. I am not very familiar with architecture firms and how that — I know that you design buildings. I don't have a familiarity with — do you tend to work with other firms, other architecture firms, on individual projects? Or how does the acquisition of a project happen? If you could walk me through, basically, first of all, how do you get on a project? From the get-go, a piece of land becomes available, someone owns it. What happens? Do they have an idea of what they want there, and you are sought out?

Jonathan Barnes 05:14One answer to that is, it works in all different ways, which is one of the reasons why I'm an architect. It's never the same. Any particular day or week, things come up in all different ways, for all different reasons, and you have to be pretty nimble about how you manage that. So the first part of your question, which maybe I'll come back to, is about working with other firms. Yes, we do partner. And that's a smart thing to do when it's a good fit. We're working on a project right now that's a partnership with a Boston firm. But I would say the answer to that question really has to do with the project type. Because there's public sector and private sector. Public sector, as you imagine, is universities, libraries, government, etc. Private sector is kind of everything else — private developers, property owners, people who don't have experience that want to do a project of some sort. But they happen in all sorts of different ways. So sometimes they are generated by the purchase of a property — somebody has a property, and now, what do I do with it? Sometimes somebody might have an idea for a project, or even a track record — let's do this again — but they don't have a property. So they're looking for a place for it.

Tim Fulton 06:49And do you assist in that process, like the acquisition of the property?

Jonathan Barnes 06:54Yes, we assist in analyzing and assessing properties, sites, or projects. We do that all the time. But I think something that's somewhat unique about us is that we often initiate that process. So, you know, I've been around enough that in this environment, I'm pretty familiar with the neighborhoods and the potential properties, whether they're on the real estate market or, more likely, not on the real estate market, off-market. And the kind of potential for development, given one property versus another. So all the time, I see opportunity, and I try to put a team together. So I'll say, well, here's an opportunity for this kind of a project on this site, and this is, let's say, a developer that I think would be well-suited for that. So I reach out to them, or several of them, and say, hey, look, I think this is a good project, this could work here. Are you interested? That happens pretty often.

Tim Fulton 08:07And so let's walk through, as we continue — because you could talk about somebody wanting to build a house, you could talk about a university wanting to build a new center. But let's walk through that process from, you drive by or hear about a property becoming available, and you are building the team and bringing them together. From this point forward in the conversation, just so that we remain on the same page — how would you hear about it? First of all, would it be just driving by, or seeing, or hearing about, oh, this property is becoming available?

Jonathan Barnes 08:48Yes. And that's going to be interesting to a lot of my answers — it's everything. So I want to qualify this part of the conversation to say that, you know, that happens sometimes, but very often developers who are experienced and have property know exactly what they want. We have established relationships, and we've worked together on multiple projects. I don't want to sound like —

Tim Fulton 09:12Yeah, absolutely. You're not a puppeteer, you're an opportunist. So they know what they want. They basically say, we've got this property, we're going to extend Bridge Park or something like that, and they say, we want a mixed-use development. How do they pick you?

Jonathan Barnes 09:35Well, that's really, in our experience, about relationships. Relationships and reputation and all that. So we've been doing this long enough that people who do this sort of thing — this sort of thing being, let's say, this kind of mixed-use residential type of project, although, look, we've done a lot of other things that people have come to us for —

Tim Fulton 10:00I totally understand. You're trying not to pigeonhole yourself here.

Jonathan Barnes 10:04Well, I would also say that having a broader project base and experience benefits all of our projects. So we did a bank for the first time, and we brought all of our experience from all of our projects to that, and it turned out, I think, really, really well. So we don't look for first-time projects, but it's more about the opportunity, and not about the specifics or project type. But you're asking about how we are selected for certain projects. And I would say it's about reputation and relationships. I know a lot of people, a lot of people know me, or know of me, and they know our work. I like to think that in our practice — from my perspective, it took us about 10 years to get to the place where we had enough work that people knew about us and were coming to us. And that changed the equation quite a bit. Now that happens quite often — people know us, or find out about us, whether it's me, or the practice, or just the work. And they come to us looking for either the same, a similar kind of project type, or, let's say, modern architecture, because that's something that we do really well, and that's what we're kind of known for. So people show up because they know us, or they know me in one way or another. So in that way, we are pre-selected, because, okay, they know we can do this. And so let's talk about it. We take a few steps, and then we put a proposal together, and it works or doesn't work, and it happens or doesn't.

Tim Fulton 11:49Okay. It feels very similar to an agency model, right? You're only there per project, and you are a piece of the pie to get it done. The funny thing is, you're literally — I don't think this is a metaphor — the architect of the whole thing.

Jonathan Barnes 12:09Right, big and little. Well, that depends a bit on your perspective too. Again, if it's a project that I'm trying to put together, then I guess that's more accurate. But look, we are part of a team, and you need a team, and you need a lot of people to make these things work. So I would say certainly we're an important part, but, look, buildings get built without architects all the time — different kinds of buildings. But that's true. Certainly we are, I would say, an important part of this greater team. There's the developer, there's a contractor, there are lawyers, zoning attorneys, etc. There are lots of consultants. And then there are agencies, because we're in Columbus, so everything's reviewed — building departments and utility companies. And it's a pretty crowded room.

Tim Fulton 13:09Yeah. And so let's say the person with the money and the property is, I assume, the ultimate decision maker. But then you guys are there from the get-go, saying, here's our proposal for what we think something should look like. And I want you to step in and say that's wrong if I am off at any point. The proposal includes maybe a rough sketch of, here's what we think this is going to look like, here's the square footage that we think this is going to end up being — this is obviously all contingent on the zoning issues that you talked about, and whether utility lines can get there, and the cost of materials, which I think is something interesting right now. And here's the dream. You deliver the dream, and you say, this is what we think it's going to cost in total. Are you able to estimate that from the get-go?

Jonathan Barnes 14:04Yeah, to some degree. So these projects — well, certainly our projects — tend to be pretty complicated. So it's a very incremental process. Meaning, when you start — and by start, I mean I have a call or a conversation with somebody about a project — it's very much in its infancy. It's an idea and a piece of property. There is so much that we don't know, even though we think we might know. Okay, it could look like this, or it could be this big, or it could be configured in a certain way. There's so much that we don't know. So you tend to go at that incrementally. It's not like you have a start and a finish and you know the direction you're going. You start initially with concepts, and what we often call fit diagrams, for instance. It's like, okay, here's a site, they're looking for some sort of an apartment project. What's appropriate? What's going to fit on this site? And then comes all the things that you bring into that. It's about so many things that you have to consider. The market — you think about the market, and what unit types are working well in a particular area. So a unit type, let's say, downtown near the riverfront is going to be way different than a unit in, you know, Milo-Grogan, Merion Village, Franklinton, wherever. So we think about the market, we consider the site, what can fit. So we start — we have an idea about, okay, here are the kind of apartments that can work in this neighborhood and on this site. Now, let's see what fits on this site. And then that has to do with all sorts of things, zoning for sure. It has to do with certain building standards. We have ideas about a particular kind of unit and the size of it, and how you can multiply them, how they fit on a site. And this is Columbus, so it still has a lot to do with parking. That drives a lot of it.

Tim Fulton 16:20That approval issue.

Jonathan Barnes 16:23It can be, in most places, except for downtown.

Tim Fulton 16:27Okay. Why is that?

Jonathan Barnes 16:29Well, because downtown has no parking requirements. Everywhere else pretty much does. Columbus citywide, except for downtown, still, for the most part, has a requirement for 1.5 cars per unit in an apartment.

Tim Fulton 16:50And is a person going to the area commission meetings to make the argument for, here's why we need this variance? Or, hey, we actually don't need a variance, but here's the plan, and we need your approval?

Jonathan Barnes 17:03Yeah, it's usually us, and oftentimes a zoning attorney. And by the way, there are exceptions. There are what are called overlays for the zoning code, where there are other standards. The Short North has an overlay where it's a one-space-per-unit requirement, so a little bit lower. But then it's even different than that, because you can go below that if you pay the city a certain amount of money per missing space. So all that is about appropriate zoning rules in certain areas to encourage appropriate development, including the right-sized parking solution for one particular neighborhood or another.

Tim Fulton 17:51And I want to do my best to keep it as surface-level as possible, because I imagine this could be an entire series.

Jonathan Barnes 17:51Yeah, there's — we're game for having you back.

Tim Fulton 17:51We'll have the parking episode.

Jonathan Barnes 18:05That will be a whole Netflix series.

Tim Fulton 18:09Walk me through — so let's say you get it approved. That was really quick, by the way, but go ahead.

Jonathan Barnes 18:09Okay, that's fair.

Tim Fulton 18:09I got approved in about three minutes. That was awesome. So you've got it approved from, let's say, the area commission. Then, when are you putting the team together that's actually building it?

Jonathan Barnes 18:32So, good question. The trick there is to get far enough. In that case, we work mostly with private clients, so we want to be careful about how we spend their money, their redevelopment money — all that extra money they're spending before they get any kind of return, or even know that they have a project.

Tim Fulton 18:51So I actually skipped over the entire design phase, because that's ahead of bringing it to the permitting process. To talk about the pre-build contract with the person with the money and the property — I'm not necessarily concerned about the scale of the money, but concerned about, how do you bill? Do you come to them with a proposal and you say, I think it's gonna cost this amount of money, and this gets you this amount of hours of design work, for example? Is the attorney hired by you, and basically that money filters through you? How much does your accountant have to do?

Jonathan Barnes 19:31Generally, no. There are consultants that we carry, that come to us, typically. Zoning attorneys are, more often, a direct hire by the owner. Or, maybe sometimes — a civil engineer is another one that the owner may hire directly. Also, like a geotechnical person, that sort of figures out what's below ground. They're hired by the owner. But to get to your real question, again, it's very incremental. Because we understand that developers have only a certain amount of cash that they want to spend on a project before they have a project, and often before they even own a property. So we'll take the design — what we would call a conceptual design, or schematic design, those are some terms that are somewhat overlapping — to a point far enough ahead that we know enough about the building to do a few things. To inform the owner's pro forma — that's the financial analysis, so they know, does this work, I'm going to spend this much, this is my return, this works or it doesn't work. And we take it far enough, also, so that we can present it to a commission, so they know what it's conceptually going to look like, so they can give an initial thumbs up or down. And so that we can get an understanding of the size and complexity of the project, so we can get a first read on the potential cost. So it's about approvals and cost, and really just a description of this project at an initial stage. That's kind of the first step. We do enough to get those kinds of things answered.

Tim Fulton 21:23So let's say, from your perspective, the project ends there. You got approval, but the money turns out wasn't there, or they couldn't get financing, or something like that happens, which I imagine happens a lot. If it had continued, how much of your total contract would have been fulfilled? Is that half? Is that a third? Is that 80%?

Jonathan Barnes 21:47No. That first step is very limited, intentionally. So it's a first-pass concept, again, enough to understand those kinds of things and get certain questions answered, at least initially, so that you can figure out if it's a go or no-go. And your point was accurate, that with that information, including an initial cost estimate, the owner and the developer are going to start to look for financing. So that's debt and equity — a lender and an investor. And if that looks promising, and approvals look like they're gonna happen, then we're off to the rest of the project. But that first piece is a very, very small percentage of the whole project.

Tim Fulton 22:41Okay. Both in terms of you getting paid and the work that you're doing?

Jonathan Barnes 22:41Correct.

Tim Fulton 22:41Okay. So let's say it does move forward. What's next?

Jonathan Barnes 22:50Then, if we haven't already, we get the proposal together for the remaining services, in which everything else, and all the consultants. And then we're off and running. And again, it's more incremental work. We do a certain amount of work, and then we'll go back to a commission for another meeting, we'll go to maybe a contractor, or several contractors that we're considering, for updated pricing.

Tim Fulton 23:18And are you hiring them?

Jonathan Barnes 23:20No, typically the contractor is hired by the owner. But we're usually asked to make suggestions about contractors that are a good fit. So, you know, three to four contractors show up, in the running, and we're kind of working with them at this preliminary stage, and they are doing cost estimates. Or, possibly, they've already been selected. I mean, I'm a big fan of bringing a team on early, and identifying that team, including the contractor. Because if they're a good contractor, you want to be concerned more about the relationship than the numbers. If you select a contractor based just on numbers, that may not work out the way you want to. Because you just want somebody that knows what they're doing, that can do a good job. The owner can control the numbers going forward. I always like to tell all of our clients, they're in control of that. We'll tell them, and the contractor will tell them, okay, what you're looking at doing is likely going to cost this much. But if you want it to cost less or more, you're in control of that. It makes a difference, right? If you want it to cost less, then it's got to be either smaller in size or lower in quality or different in some way. But we're in control.

Tim Fulton 24:48And are we at construction at this point in terms of the process?

Jonathan Barnes 24:52No, not at all. So, again, very incremental. We have different phases leading up to a construction start. But basically, look at it like we're just adding layers of information. As we move through the design process, we're considering other things — construction details, code interpretation. But the big thing —

Tim Fulton 25:17I like the way you phrase that.

Jonathan Barnes 25:19Yeah. As we go through, we're just adding more information on our drawings, getting more accurate pricing, etc. All that includes the owner, and there's a dialogue going on all the time. OAC is what we call our meetings — owner, architect, contractor. That's happening all the time. So lots of communication, and lots of development, lots of decisions. And we get to the point where the drawings are far enough along that we will submit for a building permit, and off it goes to the city. Typically, in our schedules for most of our projects — other than maybe really small ones, in the city of Columbus — we have on our spreadsheet a two-month bar. It's this long, and it's on every schedule, because that's generally what we allot for a building plan review to get a permit. So after that, when we get the permit, then, again, now we're really off and running. The contractor mobilizes on site, and things start happening.

Tim Fulton 26:29Got it. For real. And then you, I imagine, remain involved in the process, even though you've handed over the design and, basically, the instruction manual for how to put this building that you've designed together. You've already made choices about the materials and the costs associated for the owner. You remain involved through that construction process?

Jonathan Barnes 26:52Yes, for a number of reasons. Essentially, we're representing the owner throughout the construction process. So things always change to some degree. In some ways, things always change.

Tim Fulton 27:05An example of that?

Jonathan Barnes 27:07I can give you 400 examples.

Tim Fulton 27:07Give me a fun one.

Jonathan Barnes 27:07Well, they fall into different categories, by the way. That shows up in the construction cost estimate. There's an owner's contingency — a contingency is like a pot of money that you set aside to use when you need to. An owner's contingency is like, I decided I want a bigger fitness room, or we want to add this or that, or change a material. So that comes out of the owner's contingency. A contractor's contingency is if they might have missed something in their estimating. A design contingency is if the design changes somewhat. So, anyway, changes happen during construction, and we're involved throughout construction to help manage that. We're also there to help answer questions for the contractor. To go really technical, there's something called an RFI, request for information. We get those all the time. It's like, did you mean this or that? So we answer those kinds of questions.

Tim Fulton 28:14Basically, they say, these instructions aren't clear to me, or, I don't think these instructions are right, and I just want further clarity.

Jonathan Barnes 28:23Yeah, confirmation, that sort of thing. And then there are the two bad words in construction: change order. Sometimes that happens. We try to avoid that. That's like, oops, that's a miss. So that has to be added to the construction cost. So we try to avoid that. But anyway, we're involved in the process to help manage all those things.

Tim Fulton 28:49Okay. And then, any incremental steps after — you know, all the door handles are getting put on, the windows are done, the utility hookups are happening — when do you walk away?

Jonathan Barnes 29:04Well, kind of at a place we call substantial completion. That's when the contractor's released, liens and everything. It's like, okay, we're pretty much there. We just have some touch-up, some punch-list items. So we're there till pretty much the end, I mean, let's say occupancy for an apartment project. And then there's project close-out, and things need to be addressed afterwards. And, look, we're also always available after our projects for things that come up later. A tenant says, hey, what about this, or something doesn't work out the way it's planned in terms of how it functions. We end up visiting — we'll work with an owner to revisit things as needed. So there was a lot in here.

Tim Fulton 29:58I mean, we've done 30 minutes, and I'm in my head a third of the way through. And I, if we have time, I do want to schedule another conversation with you. It's exhausting just talking about it, isn't it? Well, I imagine for you, it's a little bit — you're talking about your day-to-day, so it's like, this is not that exciting.

Jonathan Barnes 29:58It can't be. You do work primarily in Columbus, is that right? Fair to say?

Tim Fulton 29:58No, not just Columbus. But primarily, yeah.

Tim Fulton 30:27Got it. Talk about what you see as unique in terms of housing and development in Columbus. What should people know? If you're in Indianapolis, and there's an architect there, and they're like, so, what's Columbus like? How do you describe that housing development market here?

Jonathan Barnes 30:49Yeah, and that would be another hour conversation, probably. There's a lot about Columbus that people who aren't familiar don't know. I follow a lot of news outlets, and online this or that, and you see these things all the time, the top 10 this or that. And Columbus is appearing more and more on those kinds of lists as an active housing market, in a lot of ways. Whether it's the prices, availability, construction — there's a lot happening here. And people are paying attention across the country, or even in the world. We had somebody from South Africa take an interest in Columbus about a year and a half ago. So it's a pretty robust market for a number of reasons. So I would tell people that it's worth paying attention to, because there's a lot of activity, and therefore a lot of opportunity, if you care to participate. And there's a lot of really interesting development. This isn't the '90s, where a lot of the development was single-family houses in far-flung suburbs. It's a very different market now. And with that comes a lot of complexities and challenges, when things are more about infill development. Look, doing an apartment project in, maybe, Grandview — people wouldn't necessarily think of that as urban, because they think it has to be downtown, but a lot of those projects are pretty urban in their nature. So there's a lot of interesting development and housing market happening here right now. And also, I would say, a lot of interesting thinking and approaches to housing, in terms of, how do you create responsible density? How do you create affordability? A big, big issue. How do you promote healthy neighborhoods, and robust transportation, and all those sorts of things? Because these projects aren't done in a vacuum. They deal with so much more than just the building and the property, and you really need to be aware of that. Whether it's intentional or unintentional, those connections and effects — better to be intentional about it, and do things that support more development that helps neighborhoods, that tries to avoid gentrification, that tries to avoid displacement, that tries to avoid inappropriate development. Although that's very much of a subjective term. But you have to be aware of the context, really. That's a big word, context. It has to do with a lot of things.

Tim Fulton 33:49From a philosophical standpoint, I imagine, from what I'm hearing, you agree that density is important and good. And that there's a responsibility to make sure that the context for a project fits everything around it.

Jonathan Barnes 34:06Correct. Yes. Both of those.

Tim Fulton 34:08Okay. Are we doing a good job?

Jonathan Barnes 34:12We're trying. Not good enough at all, yet. I kind of follow it like this. Look, it's evident to me — and people have lots of opinions about this sort of thing — but the fact is, and it is a fact, Columbus is growing. That's not something that's on a handle you can turn on or off. There are things that affect it, but most of it has to do with a lot of things that are out of anybody's control. Zoning tries to control it, the job market has a lot to do with it, but, anyway, it is happening. So my point is, Columbus is growing. And by that I mean people are moving here, a lot of people are moving here, businesses are forming, etc. So the city has to accommodate that. It does come, in one way or another. It's just a matter of how, and how well. Part of accommodating that well is to plan for it, and recognize that that growth is happening more in urban environments. Why? Because that's a preference.

Tim Fulton 35:18It's weird that I want to live —

Jonathan Barnes 35:20Right, in the '90s it was different. You can't really change that. You can create more or less opportunity, and there's an effect to that. But that's where people are looking to move, and to open offices, and things like that. So Columbus is growing, and it's growing in a way that has a focus in urban areas. Then the only way to really accommodate that well is to understand that you need to accept a certain amount of density. And the only real problem with that, for a lot of people, is simply that it's different. It's changed. So, I'm in this neighborhood, I'm used to my neighborhood looking like this. It's different, so let's stop it. I don't want to oversimplify, but it's the change.

Tim Fulton 36:09Speaking of Arlington specifically, I think about that apartment development — I think it's apartments — just north of the shops on Lane. And how, you know, I'm a member of that Facebook group, even though I've never lived in that neighborhood, and there was a lot of pushback. And it wasn't about lowering property values or anything like that. It was really just, this is different, and this is Arlington, and this is what we want. But what it was doing was adding density.

Jonathan Barnes 36:43Yeah, that was one of the things, but it's also creating a more, let's say, vibrant, mixed-use area, which is a good thing. Now people will have more restaurants to go to, they'll have a place for somebody to stay in a hotel, etc., instead of going somewhere else. So there certainly are benefits from that. But yes, it's about change in and of itself. But the fact is, I think what's lost is, every neighborhood, every city changes. It's just the way it happens. Sometimes cities will become less dense, and that's typically a bad thing — Detroit went through that for a long period. But for the most part, a lot of cities, you'll see growth, either in a steep curve or not so steep a curve. And, you know, Arlington, for instance, Lane Avenue — I don't think anyone's complaining that back in the '40s, this was just a neighborhood with some horse farms.

Tim Fulton 37:42Right. I know. The moaning was just adjustment to that change.

Jonathan Barnes 37:48Right. And maybe some people would think that's an unfair perspective or criticism, but the reality is that things change all the time. They have and they will. And rather than fight it and say, we just don't want that change, I think the smarter way is to accept it and be more in control of how it happens. And to get a little bit further into that whole argument — I think the groups that spend a lot of time and effort, and sometimes money, fighting these developments would be better off if they tried to control them more. Now, they may say, well, that's what we're trying to do. But the fact is, if they say, look, you're a developer, you're going to do a project, and it has to happen in certain ways — you're not going to do it for free, because most houses we live in, and offices we work in, made money for somebody. That's right. Sorry. But if you work with a developer in a realistic way, then it can really be a win-win. If you're unrealistic in your expectations, it may be a win-lose, or even a lose-lose. But I think groups can have more control over how their neighborhoods develop if they take a more realistic approach and ask for things in exchange. Like, okay, we'll let that be five stories, but we want at least a little bit of a park that's public.

Tim Fulton 39:31Okay. Like, we want green space.

Jonathan Barnes 39:33Right, or whatever that is. I mean, I think there's much more potential for a constructive dialogue, and a give and take, if you approach it that way. But if it's just, we say no, and that's all we have to say, then you're either gonna win or lose.

Tim Fulton 39:55Well, let me challenge you a little bit, from the perspective of not an anonymous developer, but a city- and community-interested person. It has to be a two-way dialogue, right? And if there is a known group that is going to be vocal in opposition, isn't there some onus on the developer to give outreach from the get-go?

Jonathan Barnes 40:21To engage? Absolutely. We encourage that all the time. It usually never works to try to get a project through without any kind of outreach at all. You have to at least listen. Now, what you do with that dialogue depends a lot on what that dialogue is. And that's why I'm encouraging neighborhood groups to really have an open dialogue, and not just a one-word "no."

Tim Fulton 40:55I mean, NIMBYism is the term. Like, you can't just say no, I don't want that in my backyard.

Jonathan Barnes 41:04Well, you can, I just don't think, in the end, you're gonna get the best outcome.

Tim Fulton 41:07Right. What does Columbus need more of?

Jonathan Barnes 41:13Well, in no particular order, we need more affordable housing. And I don't think people realize that affordable housing, or the lack thereof, affects everybody. It's not like, look, my neighbors are just fine, so put that over there. It affects everybody, because it makes businesses more viable, which makes the economy more viable, which makes a lot of people happier. And you can go into, what's the value of equity — that's another several-hour discussion. But affordable housing is more important to more people than most people think. So we definitely need to find ways to do that. We need more mixed-use environments, associated with — I'll say, a more nerdy term — transit corridors. So we need more dense development and more mixed-use development in places where people move around town. Because you want to concentrate those in places that have access to transportation, and I don't mean just cars. A healthy city has more of a variety of uses and buildings in places that are accessible to transportation, because that's a smarter way for a lot of people to live. There's a lot of ways to do it — you can still live in the suburb in your big house, perfectly fine. But I think we need to accommodate more people, and more retail, and offices, and entertainment, and whatever it is, in places that are accessible to transit options.

Tim Fulton 43:04What are the things that are standing in the way of, first of all, affordable housing? And then the follow-up is going to be better transit corridors. Maybe that's the conversations that aren't happening, or the funding. I don't want to place blame, obviously, but what's not happening to get us what we need?

Jonathan Barnes 43:28Well, it kind of includes, or even starts with, planning, because that's what initiates change. But that's starting to happen. I'll make a plug for Rapid 5, which is an initiative that you all and others are sponsoring, that will start to change things in a lot of neighborhoods that really need to be changed in some really good ways. Those are the kinds of initiatives, and that's the kind of thinking, that we need to make these things really happen. So it has to do with zoning ordinances, in the end, and that comes from good planning. But it's also, a lot of it, just — I don't want to seem pedantic, but educating people. Just like, here's what you could have, if you support these kinds of things, this is what you get. You can have your kids, when they graduate from OSU, live in a place like this, and they can walk a block and a half to a bikeway that's on a park that's along a river, and they can bike downtown for a concert or whatever. It literally comes down to creating changes that people can actually value and take advantage of. If you embrace that kind of thinking and those kinds of changes — it certainly doesn't happen overnight, but you have to start somewhere. And the more that kind of thinking, and the more that acceptance and understanding and that kind of development, in another five, eight, 10, 20 years, is going to make a big difference.

Tim Fulton 45:08And I normally ask these questions in the reverse order. But what is Columbus doing a good job at?

Jonathan Barnes 45:15Well, a lot of things. I used to be surprised — I'm not surprised anymore, I'm just happy — that there are a lot of, I'll just say, younger generations that are moving here, and they're getting jobs, and they're living here, and they're buying and going to places that make kind of cool neighborhoods. More of those people doing really cool things. Startups and restaurants and people that make stuff. And it's happening in a really important way, and it has been for some time. People that move here now — like, somebody in their 30s moves here for their job, and they would say, Short North, that's cool, Italian Village, that's cool. But they don't know what it took for us to get here. So kudos to all those people that just, like, they didn't wait to get financing, to get a bank loan, to open up a shop. They just did it. That has happened in hundreds, if not thousands, of ways in Columbus that have made this a better city. So we're doing the grassroots stuff really well, I think, and you can see how that's happening. It's because of that, that places like East Franklinton are what they are. It's the people at the 400 building over there, and all those businesses that are in development now. That came from a grassroots kind of interest toward development. In that way, we're doing that stuff really, really well. And the other thing we're doing well is, we are finally — thank you, City of Columbus — rewriting our, like, 1959 zoning code, that served Columbus well for a couple of decades, and then not. So that's a big deal. And a zoning code, a lot of people yawn about that, but in the end, that's going to make things, I think, better for us.

Tim Fulton 47:27Well, it's what allows things to happen.

Jonathan Barnes 47:30In an easier way, but in a better way. You can make projects happen that don't fit the zoning code with a lot of effort — and we've been doing that for a long time, but it slows everything down. And I will tell you that people that come here from other cities, where things are happening at a pace that's more suitable for a growing city like Columbus, they sort of just shake their heads, like, are you kidding me? It's like, you people have a variance for everything. That's not the way to do it.

Tim Fulton 48:05Right. And it allows for things to get stopped up.

Jonathan Barnes 48:10Sure, exactly. So it's not about getting around anything. It's just about accepting how things really should happen, and making that process just less cumbersome. People still have a voice, and they need a voice in these developments, in these projects, in their own neighborhoods. They need a voice, and they will have a voice. But a lot of the noise, I think, needs to and should come out of it.

Tim Fulton 48:37Yeah. Well, and hopefully it makes things easier and more equitable as well.

Jonathan Barnes 48:37Exactly. It should.

Tim Fulton 48:37Mr. Barnes, thank you so much for your time today.

Jonathan Barnes 48:37Thank you very much. It was fun.

Tim Fulton 48:37Thank you for listening to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, and share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite architect. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.