The City of Whitehall
Columbus’s suburbs will play a big role in how we’re able to grow in the future. Reporter Brent Warren sat down with Whitehall’s mayor Kim Maggard and Economic Development Director Zach Woodruff to discuss the new mixed-use development plans in Whitehall, how they believe they are uniquely positioned to grow in the years to come, and what you may not know about Whitehall.
SHOWNOTES
The Confluence Cast is sponsored by The Mid-Ohio Regional Planning Commission featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability and an inclusive Central Ohio. MORPC’s transformative programming, innovative services and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region.
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are discussing the city of Whitehall and the transformation that it's going through. Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren sat down with Whitehall's mayor, Kim Maggard, and their economic development director, Zach Woodruff, to discuss new mixed use development plans in Whitehall, how they believe they are uniquely positioned to grow in the years to come, and what you should know about Whitehall. You can get more information on what we discuss today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about our local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview. Thank you for talking with us today, Mayor Maggard. I was hoping you could just give us a little, little bit of your background and how long you've been mayor of Whitehall, and what led you to this, to this position. My background is varied in the fact that I have undergraduate degrees in police administration and sociology, a public education teaching certificate, and also have done graduate work in library science. Before I became mayor, I was actually a manager with the Columbus Metropolitan Library system at the Whetstone branch. I became auditor in 2003, and I was auditor for the city of Whitehall for eight and a half years. And then in 2012, uh, I became mayor, and I've been mayor since then. I moved to Whitehall in 1981. My husband received a job offer with DFAST at the DSCC Center, and so as a young mom and a young wife with one child, moved up here. We made our home in Whitehall. We had three more children, and so now here I am. Great. Um, just to give a little context, we've been talking, um, to a lot of different people about sort of the growth in the region and how Columbus and its surrounding suburbs are going to need to kind of adapt to that growth and maybe redevelop some sites that, that ha- were developed a long time ago, and there's a, a ability to densify certain places, especially your major corridors that are going through the city. And in Whitehall you have two major corridors, and you have some big plans for redevelopment. So I wanted to talk about those, um, starting at, uh, sort of what seems to be the centerpiece of your efforts, which is the corner of Broad and Hamilton. Um, can you give us a quick rundown on, on that?
Absolutely. Well, the corner at Broad and Hamilton were formerly an apartment community, uh, about 18 acres, that was probably built in the late '40s or early '50s, and it was built for all the population boom baby boomers and their parents that was going on at that time. And at that time in, at DSCC, there wa- wasn't enough military housing to house the, all the military personnel that was there. So this also helped to bridge that gap. However, there wasn't any updates to that apartment community during all this time. And this, to be clear, we're talking about the southwest corner- Yes ... of the intersection? Right. Okay.
Yes. And so we realized that in order to really make an impression and make ourselves a leader in the market of redevelopment, we needed to do some urban planning in our city, and we looked at that specific, uh, apartment community. We were able to purchase it, and now we have a great plan that is currently now under construction at the southwest corner with apartments. It's gonna be mixed use development. There's going to be a public park in the center that will really be inviting for people to come and play sports, have music, um, farm markets, things like that, in order to make sure that we are trying to reach out to the interest of many, many people. Mm-hmm. And you say mixed use. This is, there's apartments, there's... Is there a senior component to it, or no? No. Uh, uh, m- apartments, there will be offices-
Mm-hmm ... uh, possibly rest- well, I know there will be restaurants, possibly some retail, uh, kinda boutique-type things. Not sure yet. So we're kinda looking in that area. But it is going to be an apartment community, which there will be offices on the east side of Hamilton Road. Mm-hmm. And the, the name of this redevelopment is Norton Crossing. Norton Crossing.
Yes, okay. Um, do you wanna talk a little bit about, um, the reception of this idea, and sort of how it came to be, and how, how long have you been working on this project? Yeah. So my- Yeah ... my name is Zach Woodruff. I'm the director of, uh, development and public service for the city of Whitehall. I've been, uh, with the city in some capacity now for, um, going on 18 years. Um, and so, you know, what I'll tell you is that the, the rebirth and revitalization that we're seeing in the community, um, really is unprecedented, uh, for the city. Um, we started, uh, when the mayor came in in 2012, we started in '12 and '13, um, talking to stakeholders and community members, um, looking at plans like, uh, the Insight 2050 study, and understanding that if there really is gonna be a million more people that move to central Ohio, Whitehall is uniquely positioned to take advantage of a lot of that growth. Um, and the only way that we were gonna be able to take advantage of it was beci- was by becoming more dense. We don't have, you know, uh, townships or farmland that we can annex. Um, so all the growth that we're gonna have to accommodate for, um, we're gonna have to do that by going up. And so, uh, after we purchased, uh, the, what kn- was known as the Commons at Royal Landing apartment complex the mayor referenced, um, the community really embraced that purchase, that acquisition, um, for a variety of reasons, one being, you know, our division of police the year before we bought the complex, um, averaged going to the complex 2.3 times a day every day. Um, and so removing blight, um, from the community, the community really embraced. We then spent 12 months talking to leaders about, um, what density looked like, why multifamily wasn't a bad word. Um, 'cause I'm sure you guys hear in suburbs, um, the, the former notion of, well, the only people who rent apartments are people who can't afford to buy a house, and it's those people, so to speak, who rent apartments, and that's not the market today. Um, lots of people choose apartment living.
Mm-hmm. They choose to be in dense, walkable, urban environments. Um, and so we spent 12 months working with our leaders so that they understood what those kind of principles meant, and then we went through an exhaustive RFQ process, and ultimately selected Continental Real Estate and Frank Kass, um, to lead the redevelopment here. And the overwhelming reception that we got was of acceptance, of excitement. Um, I think we've actually gotten more criticism on how long it's taken from concept to construction, rather than what the concept was. Mm-hmm. Um, people are really excited about what this mixed-use project will be. Um, and it really is, you know, finding a, a higher and better use for now what is 25 acres at Broad and Hamilton. So it's a really exciting time, um, and residents and businesses and stakeholders and investors have really responded favorably.
When you say you, you spent all this time working with your, the leaders in the community, do you mean your s- this is, like, city council? Or- So it's- ... who is this that you're s- It, it, it's stakeholders of all sizes and shapes and people, and so it's city council, it's department heads, it's, um, members of civic organizations. It's going and talking to the senior citizens club about why multifamily isn't something you need to be scared of. Um, it is talking to business leaders and our chamber of commerce and getting them excited about what this potential is. Um, we... One of the benefits of working, um, in 5.2 square miles, uh, is that, uh, we've all met. Uh, and so- ... you know, when you go to Kroger, you run across seven people who are either volunteering, have kids in sports, or that you see at church. And so, you know, that is a built-in advantage, um, that we utilize to really help, um, educate folks on, you know, why, you know, why we did a, a, a $50 million mixed-use project rather than single-family homes.
Mm. Because originally, when you talk to people about, "What should we do with these 18 acres," the response we got was, "Single-family homes." Yeah. Single-family homes at the southwest corner of Broad and Hamilton probably isn't the best place, and you can't get that many anyway, so it, that wasn't gonna work. So, you know, we, we listen to the public, to our residents, but then we also have to make sure we're educating them on why, if we're not doing single-family homes, why that wouldn't work, and here's really a vision coming from the mayor. Here's what we do think based on data and evidence and studies that w- will work.
Mm-hmm. When we've talked to developers in other communities, like in Dublin, Upper Arlington- Mm-hmm ... they're building, uh, mixed-use projects, and a lot of the demand for those products are actually current residents of those communities- Mm-hmm
... who maybe they're looking to sell their house- Mm-hmm ... and move to an apartment. Have you found that to be the case here as well? Yes.
Yeah. We've had lots of interest, verbally, face-to-face interest, with residents saying, "I'm going to really look at that to consider moving, because my house is too big, my yard is too big, and frankly, I'm more interested in more simplified living, where I could possibly just walk a few doors away to a restaurant, I have a public park right there, and I believe that I'm ready for a change." So we have had lots of interest from our residents. The other thing I would say is one of the things that make White- makes Whitehall unique is that, uh, in 2017, uh, we had 33,000 people who worked in Whitehall. Um, we have a population of, uh, just over 19,000. Um, but only 3% of Whitehall residents actually work in the city. Hmm.
So What that means is that there's a tremendous amount of employees that work in Whitehall that don't live here. Mm-hmm. And all of the data suggests that specifically young people wanna live closer to where they work. Mm-hmm.
And so we also view this as not only helping our current residents, you know, either downsize or change their living, uh, status or, or th- what kind of house or home they live in, um, but we also view it as an attraction tool, um, and a workforce issue for a lot of our employers. DSCC, uh, as an example, DLA, the largest employer on the base, um, Defense Logistics Agency, um, it ha- it every year through attrition hires 150 new employees. By and large, those people are 26 to 33, married, no kids. I don't have the housing today that is attractive for those young professionals. Mm-hmm. And so the development like Norton Crossing, uh, creates an inventory that I otherwise don't have. Um, it will also be the closest mixed use urban, uh, redevelopment to occur near job hubs like Mount Carmel East Hospital and the airport. Um, so those 33,000 people I mentioned earlier do not include D- do not include Mount Carmel- Mm-hmm
... don't include L Brands, doesn't- don't include the h- the airport. Mm-hmm. And so there's a tremendous amount of people who work right around here, and their options for this kind of new development just don't exist. So Norton Crossing is under construction now. What is the timeline? When are we gonna see people moving in to that project?
So, uh, what we're hearing from Continental is that they believe that they'll be able to start accepting residents moving in late summer of next year. Okay. Um, and so again, as the mayor mentioned, phase one, uh, has kicked off. Um, that features 360 upscale residential units, the public park, um, the clubhouse, the fitness center, as well as one restaurant, and then we're currently working with Continental on office users and other retail. Okay. And then moving across that intersection, there's another potentially enormous project that this is also land that's in c- controlled by the city of Whi- Whitehall, correct?
Yes. Um- Yes, it is ... do you wanna give us the overview of, of that project also?
Sure. We're also looking, uh, for Woodcliff, uh, formerly condominiums, to become a multi-use development as well. Now, on that site, you actually have the northern p- back portion that overlooks the park, Whitehall Community Park. So we're looking at definitely apartments, possibly condos, and we want to actually put in an affordable, uh, living component, uh, unit in this development. At my State of the City, I said for the next five years, I'd like for anything that we do to have 20% affordable living component, if it's apartments or any type of housing. And also, we are looking at mobility. We know that mobility is a real problem in central Ohio. For instance, we have too many people on our roads, infrastructure's crumbling, and even with the hike in the gas tax, it's gonna continue to crumble until we get different modes of transportation in central Ohio. So we wanna put in a mobility hub as part of this multi-use development. For examples, we could have, you know, Lyft cars or rent cars. We could have definitely some micro transportation. We've, uh, had conversations with COTA, you know, scooters, things like that, to where people can feel, "I don't have to have a car to get where I need to go. I can use these other forms of transportation and still save money and still get to my job in a reasonable amount of time." So we're looking for this to be transformative, uh, on the east side of, you know, Columbus. The Confluence Cast is sponsored by the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth of the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. And would this be the same scenario where you would look for a developer to partner with or multiple developers? Or how, how would that go forward? It, it definitely could be multiple developers-
Mm-hmm ... considering what we're, you know, we're thinking about. Right. I think that's, I think that's right. I... The site is about 35 acres there on the northeast corner. Um, and so, you know, our initial concept plan, you know, calls for a million square feet of construction, you know, upwards of 700 residential units and maybe a quarter million square feet of commercial office, um, again, with acres of public green space integrated. Um, and so with a project of that size, um, we've internally had some conversations about do we divide that up into two or three different RFQs and select different developers, um, so it's not one project dependent on one developer. Um, uh, but you know, we're still really working to evaluate that. Um, we believe demolition, uh, of the site, uh, po- potentially could occur, um, in August and be completed by the end of the year, um, with then RFQ, RFQs, uh, being ready to be submitted out to the, to the development world third quarter of this year. Mm-hmm.
Selection of the beginning of next year. So like the Norton Crossing site, this site's It's not like this was an empty site. There was already housing on it. Um, can you just briefly take me through the history of that? 'Cause I know that was a pretty drawn-out process, right? Yeah. So, um, the Woodcliff condominiums, uh, the Woodcliff condominium unit owners have actually been in litigation with the city for 12 years. Wow.
Um, so this is the longest consecutively running, uh, environmental court case in environ- Franklin County's environmental history. Um, and so we were... We, we received a, a court order last August, um, after the owners voted, uh, overwhelmingly, uh, to accept, uh, the city's offer. Um, and so we took possession in February. Um, as leases expired, uh, we did not renew any of them, so we're working on, um... You know, the, the complex will be vacant by the end of May. Um, and so, um, we've worked with, um, HomePort and Impact, um, and the Urban League- Mm-hmm ... um, to, uh, help those residents find other housing or to become aware of resources that they may be qualified for, um, to help ease that transition. Um, but again, you know, it was declared, um, through the courts a, a public nuisance twice. Um, we've had four different judges, four receivers, multiple runs up through the court of appeals. Um, it's been a very long journey. Um, and you know, what the city's ultimate goal there was to, to have the nuisance abated, um, whether that was the, uh, uh, underserved water issues or sanitary problems out there. I mean, the, the lists are very long and would take up an entirely different podcast. Um, but, uh, you know- And these... Just give me an idea. How old are these structures there?
So these are, these are 1950s duplexes- Mm-hmm ... um, that had, um, 317 units, 153 buildings, and 126 different owners. Um, I, I'm the landlord, so I know the numbers. But-
Did, did, did anyone tell you you were crazy to try and, uh- Well, so- ... do this project? So the first 10 years was just the city work- trying to get the receivers, trying to get the owners to fix the problems-
Mm-hmm ... to abate the nuisance. Ultimately, they were unable to do so, and so the city said, "Okay, this is never going to get fixed, so here's what we can offer to just purchase it. There is no solution." And in fact, the, the court order from Judge Hawkins in the environmental court actually spells it out pretty plainly that, you know, that there is no other... History has proven that there is no other viable solution that will permanently abate the nuisance conditions at the condos. Um, this was the only solution where, um, the nuisance would be abated. So I mean, what we have found since we became owner is that there were a lot of folks living in, in what I would consider and anyone, uh, objectively would consider substandard housing. The mayor mentioned affordable housing a minute ago. You know, we want to ensure that everyone in Whitehall is living in safe, secure housing, and when you have a complex that's been declared a nuisance multiple times and, uh... You know, we have lots of pictures that sh- that document just how unsanitary the, the apartments there were. Um, you know, we're, we're pleased that we're able to do something else with that property. You both mentioned affordable housing moving forward, and there's a commitment to have that be a part of this project. And I know there are a couple of HomePort projects- Mm-hmm
... that are in the works now, right, that are in Whitehall? Is that correct? Yes, yes. Uh, we have on the corner of Edna and Hamilton, we have senior, uh, living apartments from HomePort, and we're getting ready to build 35, uh, additional units right behind there. And on the other side, on the north side, we plan on building workforce housing, uh, with... you know, through, through HomePort. So we're very excited about that. We've been very happy with our relationship and our partnership with HomePort. We find them to be quality, quality, uh, builders, developers, and just really good people to, to work with. They care about their mission, and they care about who they're serving, so I think that's very important. And actually, it fits in great with the philso- philosophy of Whitehall, is that we're here to make the world a better place by making sure that Whitehall is a better place. A- and I, and I would wanna mention here too, we do have... You know, the mayor mentions affordability moving forward. Mm-hmm.
But the city has also participated, uh, actively or indirectly on the creation of over 200 affordable housing units in the city over the last 10 years, and the project the mayor just mentioned would bring another 140 workforce and affordable housing units online as well. Um, so we have really been, I believe, at the forefront of ensuring that affordability. Whitehall has, as a percentage, uh, fewer affordable housing units than Gahanna or Reynoldsburg. Mm-hmm. What we have is a lot of naturally occurring affordable housing of last resort. And so, you know, it's been our goal to transition a lot of that housing. Uh, so I mentioned Woodcliff earlier. There were, there are people at Woodcliff who were paying as much as 950 a month to live in substandard housing. So how do we transition that instead to safe, secure, affordable, or workforce housing so that, you know, you can lower their costs of housing, which we know is escalating in Central Ohio? But we've really been, um, a leader in, in that area, and we'll continue to, to do so as we ensure that we're looking at that issue in all of our developments. We wanna integrate... Uh, we wanna disperse, rather, um, affordable and workforce housing throughout the community so there isn't a concentration of it at one corner and one development, but really disperse it throughout the entire city. And have you, um- With these affordable housing projects, the newer ones, have you run into any opposition from... I mean, we cover this a lot too, and a lot of communities there's the NIMBYism, "not in my backyard." You hear that a lot about affordable housing. Have you run into that in Whitehall?
No, and the reason for that is we definitely educated, you know, our citizens on the importance of safe and secure, uh, housing, that affordable housing does not need to be housing of last resort for people. And our, you know, look at our demographics. The, the, the residents who live in Whitehall understand the need for affordable housing, and in fact, when, uh, we've done a lot of senior citizen affordable housing, and residents will say, "Well, what about us?" So they're looking forward to this. They're looking forward to the opportunity to live in, uh, better housing than what they currently are, or they're looking also at ways in which if they own a home, that we have programs here in Whitehall that will help them actually fix up their home. Hmm. And so we have those programs as well. So we're not getting really that much, you know, pushback for this. I think our citizens understand what the real need is. Hmm.
Well, and to the point, I mean, the mayor and I a- and a lot of her department heads spend a lot of time, again, engaging the community and educating them. We, we spent, we've spent multiple years working with our city leaders and, and working with community members so that they understand the issue. I knew that we had really turned a, a page when we were doing the Homeport rezoning for workforce housing and for an additional component of affordable housing, and not a single question was about why are we doing affordable housing or why would we do workforce. It was all about site development. It was all about ingress and egress and what color block or what color brick and where are the windows and how do you get around and what's the landscaping and what kind of trees. And so I knew- You have some city planners now that you're- Well, right. That's right.
And so, uh, my point being that's how I knew as a community as a whole we had really turned that corner- Mm-hmm ... um, because those were the questions, not, "Why are we doing that?" "Not in my backyard." "Oh, yes, we need affordable housing, but it'd be great if it was over there or not here," or, "Why does it have to be in Whitehall?" Um, we have, we have been very fortunate that the, the folks that we've been able to talk to understand the issue to the mayor's point, or, um, they at least will under- they'll, they'll hear us out on why the need is, is what it is, and you know, we have a lot of good facts to back it up. Like I said, there are, there's fewer actual affordable housing units in Whitehall than there are in Gahanna and Reynoldsburg, and when you say that to people, they are a bit shocked, and then they understand why we need to, why, why it's a workforce issue. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You talk about naturally occurring affordable housing, which if I understand that correctly, it's just sort of housing that ages. Is that right? And-
Housing that ages without investment. Right. Uh, and these two big developments at that intersection of Broad and Hamilton both are replacing that kind of housing. Absolutely. Correct? And but is that a concern? Is there more of that kind of housing in Whitehall? Do you, is there more development in the future that's gonna replace this sort of aging housing, or are there other places that you see the development going?
I would like to say that we have to look, uh, to the future. We cannot have our city just stay the same, and yes, there are other apartment communities that are older and may need help later or may need, you know, you know, some, some help in making sure that they can be upgraded. So I'm not going to say that we're out to knock down all apartment communities and build new. That's not what we're here for. But what we're here for is to make sure that we give the best services to our residents and make sure that people have safe and secure homes, and unfortunately in Whitehall, we do have aging structures that have not been upkept. So we're really trying to work hard and h- build those relationships with the landlords in order that we can possibly have viable plans, or we can help them in some way in possibly fixing up their property. Mm-hmm. And I think that's exactly right. I, I think one of the things that we've just recently undertaken is a citywide comprehensive development blueprint plan, um, in partnership with OHM Advisors. Um, and part of that plan kind of lays out action items on how to address other aging apartment complexes or, you know, the aging, uh, type of our home construction, um, and putting in action items and, and goals and those kind of things that we can address those in the long term. If you look at a lot of our apartment complexes, much like the two that we purchased, um, they are typically two or fourplex on large acres, um, and you... that's not the density you would try to accomplish today. I think our goal in redeveloping these 75 acres at Broad and Hamilton is to help establish the market, where then the private sector, instead of the city doing it, um, the private sector then sees the, the economics work, uh, and then, then they take the lead and redevelop properties on their own. Mm-hmm. Um, I was gonna ask because we've also covered a lot the corridor concepts with MORPC, and ULI is, is talking about sort of densifying corridors, and as I mentioned, you have two pretty significant corridors running right through your community. Mm-hmm.
And a lot of that is what we're seeing in other places, in some places, is, um, sort of older retail properties being redeveloped into mixed-use properties. Mm-hmm. Is that something you see as the future in Whitehall also? We are very open to that because we realize that mixed-use development is working. It's working, and people like it. So why wouldn't we look at that? It's beneficial to the developer, and it's beneficial to the community. It just makes sense.
Absolutely. I, I don't, I mean, I don't think I could've said it better myself. I mean, as I mentioned at the very beginning, the only way that we're gonna continue to, to grow and to accommodate the 118 people a day that increased central house population is to go up. So where we have, you know, single store, single story retail, I think it only makes sense that those are gonna have to become multi-story mixed use. Mm-hmm. Um, I, uh, I've always thought it was interesting, Town & Country, that's one of the first developments of its kind, really, like in the country, some people say. Yes. Um, do you see a future for that development? Are there plans in the works to sort of refresh that or, or what?
So I can tell you that, I mean, we're having conversations with Casto, you know, on a weekly basis about a variety of projects. Um, and certainly I think Casto, you know, there is this, um, uh, we are still working to g- make the economics work. So if you're Casto and you're Town & Country that has a pretty low vacancy rate, um, the idea of emptying it, de-leasing the building, tearing it down and rebuilding is something that the economics have to work. And so we're working to, to try to figure out how do we make that e- how do we make those economics work? How do we ensure, uh, that it's a project that will be viable for the long term, be sustainable? Um, and so you certainly, I think, I, I think everyone i- in the development world, um, certainly understands that big box retail and inline retail are certainly, uh, having challenges, uh, currently. And, uh, if you juxtapose that to the areas that are doing, you know, more of the mixed use, walkable, urban, pedestrian kind of oriented development, those seem to be thriving. Um, and so I don't think Whitehall will be any different than, you know, some of those other communities that you have visited, you know, whether it be in Columbus or in Upper Arlington. Um, you know, it was just re- you know, reported last week, you know, uh, Upper Arlington's, uh, you know, being frustrated with Kroger and waiting for the next big b- you know, that big box retail, and do we zone so that we don't allow big box retail? I mean, what are... You know, uh, I have, um... We're, we're fortunate, uh, one of the other members of our development team, uh, ha- is a urban planner by trade, um, with, from Ohio State, and so he has a master's in urban planning, and I think every time we, we look at a big box, I think he gets a nervous tick. So, um, or when you talk about parking- Mm-hmm ... um, that isn't structured or underground, he, he gets, you know, a twitch. So, um, you know, we understand that Town & Country currently, um, is working, um, but how do you position it to take advantage of the changing market, um, in a way that then can last for the next 50 years? 'Cause you're right, I mean, Town & Country was the first inline shopping center, at least east of the Mississippi. Um, and so it certainly, you know, put Whitehall on the map when it was built, and so we w- we certainly are trying to work with Casto to understand how we can reposition Town & Country to put Whitehall and Casto back on the map again. Mm-hmm. You mentioned all these other communities that are building these kind of mixed use developments. Do you see, um, the competition kind of heating up? I mean, there's a limited number of developers that can build these things, and a lot of places that seem to want them. Um, and we had talked a little bit previously about regional cooperation, and how does this, um... Is there sometimes, do you think, uh, a competition between the different communities, and does that make it harder to get these projects done?
I don't think so. I think w- what is the driving factor is how unique is this, and what's the deal that I can get on this? So every community's different and has different needs. So you can make those kind of developments. They don't have to be cookie cutter developments. And I think that's why developers like this so much, and that they know that it's not cookie cutter, that they can really put a different spin on these things. They have the ability to do that, and that only helps them in the long run in that they can have a bigger product when, when they try to go for the next development. And if you talk to folks at Columbus 2020 or the Columbus Partnership, I mean, they certainly prescribe to the rising tide lifts all ships. Mm-hmm. If there are additional redevelopments or developments like the one in Norton Crossing, um, that is only going to be helpful from, you know, the attraction of employers, retaining employers, and growing employers.
Mm-hmm. Um, and so, you know, obviously Central Ohio is very blessed to have a growing, you know, population- Mm ... uh, a low unemployment rate. Um, and so where the, the only place where I would see the competition being, um, or the, there being a, a bit of a competition is in the construction market, um, and the increases we're seeing in construction pricing and, and, you know, I don't know, uh, I, I think that there are more developers who would w- who can do development. I think that the real challenge is, uh, in the finding the skilled trades to be able to actually do the construction. Not necessarily in the developers who, you know, finance it and, and hire the contractors, but more, you know, uh, the, the competition to get the skilled trades, construction crews, uh, you know, ready and queued up and in line. Um, that's the only place where I really see, um, you know, that quote unquote competition. I'm very fortunate as a development practitioner that in Central Ohio, the, the development practitioners at, you know, at the local levels are all very close.
Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, I belong to MOHED, the Mid-Ohio Development Exchange, um, which is a consortium of development practitioners. So it's all the local development directors and staff. And, you know, the mayor is chairperson, uh, for, uh, COME or COMMA, the Central Ohio Mayor and Managers Association. I, uh, the Columbus way really does kinda come out too in the development world too, that, you know, there, is there competition? Uh, not so much in that I can get a project and you can't, but more, um, you know, that rising tide really is lifting all ships. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's all about manpower. I mean, we have a limited amount of people who, um, have the qualifications in order to do this type of work. So, you know, o- What are the trades gonna do about this? How are they gonna try to attract more people into the trades? Because right now it's so difficult and some projects are being put on hold because they can't get the manpower. And also we're bringing people in from out of state, travelers is what union, unions call them, to come in and, and help. And that's a bit kinda difficult too because everybody's been trained in a different way. And, uh, that could also, you know, have some issues itself. But the real issue is manpower and, uh, qualified manpower. So that's, that's a big issue we're gonna have to deal with. And how do we attract more people into those occupations?
Great. I mean, we've talked a lot about these, um, big development projects. Um, I wondered if we could just close on, you know, a lot of our readers probably aren't too familiar with Whitehall. Mm-hmm. What would you like them to know about your community? Well, we're very close to Big Walnut Creek. We have a beautiful park on the east side of Whitehall called Whitehall Community Park, and we're getting ready, uh, we've been doing a lot of, uh, renovations in that park. We're getting ready to do a, um, possibly a canoe launch. So for nature lovers, that's a wonderful place to come. You, you start off high and then you drive down and you go to the bottom part of the park, and it's just beautiful. It's, it's pristine when you go over there. So I'd like for people to know about that. I mean, you have that type of nature in such a urban area, it's almost unheard of. And I think that that's probably a gem that most people don't even know about. I was over there yesterday actually, and I was looking down into the water. It was cl- crystal clear where you could actually see the rocks down, you know, right, right there. And so I, that's one thing I'd really like to, for people to, to know about. Also, the fact that we have some beautiful homes here in Whitehall, older homes on Maplewood and Collingwood that are gorgeous. And if, uh, you know, if you know any flippers who wanna come in and flip a home and get a great price, come to Whitehall because we have a lot of those. And also we have a beautiful stretch of road on Fairway Ave- uh, Boulevard that's gorgeous. So we have some beautiful homes here and, uh, we also, you know, have a great amount of ethnic restaurants that if people want something different, try Whitehall because we have Greek, we have Ethiopian, we have Chinese, we have the gamut. And, uh, come on over 'cause we got good eats.
Great. Well, thank you both for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you for listening to Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite contractor. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.
Transcript6,723 words
Tim Fulton Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focusing on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we are discussing the city of Whitehall and the transformation that it's going through. Columbus Underground reporter Brent Warren sat down with Whitehall's mayor, Kim Maggard, and their economic development director, Zach Woodruff, to discuss new mixed use development plans in Whitehall, how they believe they are uniquely positioned to grow in the years to come, and what you should know about Whitehall. You can get more information on what we discuss today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Also, the Confluence Cast is on Patreon. Find out how to support this podcast on our website, theconfluencecast.com, or at patreon.com/confluence. The Confluence Cast is sponsored this week by the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about our local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth in the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org. Enjoy the interview.
Brent Warren Thank you for talking with us today, Mayor Maggard. I was hoping you could just give us a little, little bit of your background and how long you've been mayor of Whitehall, and what led you to this, to this position.
Kim Maggard My background is varied in the fact that I have undergraduate degrees in police administration and sociology, a public education teaching certificate, and also have done graduate work in library science. Before I became mayor, I was actually a manager with the Columbus Metropolitan Library system at the Whetstone branch. I became auditor in 2003, and I was auditor for the city of Whitehall for eight and a half years. And then in 2012, uh, I became mayor, and I've been mayor since then. I moved to Whitehall in 1981. My husband received a job offer with DFAST at the DSCC Center, and so as a young mom and a young wife with one child, moved up here. We made our home in Whitehall. We had three more children, and so now here I am.
Brent Warren Great. Um, just to give a little context, we've been talking, um, to a lot of different people about sort of the growth in the region and how Columbus and its surrounding suburbs are going to need to kind of adapt to that growth and maybe redevelop some sites that, that ha- were developed a long time ago, and there's a, a ability to densify certain places, especially your major corridors that are going through the city. And in Whitehall you have two major corridors, and you have some big plans for redevelopment. So I wanted to talk about those, um, starting at, uh, sort of what seems to be the centerpiece of your efforts, which is the corner of Broad and Hamilton. Um, can you give us a quick rundown on, on that?
Kim Maggard Absolutely. Well, the corner at Broad and Hamilton were formerly an apartment community, uh, about 18 acres, that was probably built in the late '40s or early '50s, and it was built for all the population boom baby boomers and their parents that was going on at that time. And at that time in, at DSCC, there wa- wasn't enough military housing to house the, all the military personnel that was there. So this also helped to bridge that gap. However, there wasn't any updates to that apartment community during all this time.
Brent Warren And this, to be clear, we're talking about the southwest corner-
Kim Maggard Yes
Brent Warren ... of the intersection? Right. Okay.
Kim Maggard Yes.
Brent Warren Yes.
Kim Maggard And so we realized that in order to really make an impression and make ourselves a leader in the market of redevelopment, we needed to do some urban planning in our city, and we looked at that specific, uh, apartment community. We were able to purchase it, and now we have a great plan that is currently now under construction at the southwest corner with apartments. It's gonna be mixed use development. There's going to be a public park in the center that will really be inviting for people to come and play sports, have music, um, farm markets, things like that, in order to make sure that we are trying to reach out to the interest of many, many people.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. And you say mixed use. This is, there's apartments, there's... Is there a senior component to it, or no?
Kim Maggard No. Uh, uh, m- apartments, there will be offices-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Kim Maggard ... uh, possibly rest- well, I know there will be restaurants, possibly some retail, uh, kinda boutique-type things. Not sure yet. So we're kinda looking in that area. But it is going to be an apartment community, which there will be offices on the east side of Hamilton Road.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. And the, the name of this redevelopment is Norton Crossing.
Kim Maggard Norton Crossing.
Brent Warren Yes, okay. Um, do you wanna talk a little bit about, um, the reception of this idea, and sort of how it came to be, and how, how long have you been working on this project?
Zach Woodruff Yeah. So my-
Brent Warren Yeah
Zach Woodruff ... my name is Zach Woodruff. I'm the director of, uh, development and public service for the city of Whitehall. I've been, uh, with the city in some capacity now for, um, going on 18 years. Um, and so, you know, what I'll tell you is that the, the rebirth and revitalization that we're seeing in the community, um, really is unprecedented, uh, for the city. Um, we started, uh, when the mayor came in in 2012, we started in '12 and '13, um, talking to stakeholders and community members, um, looking at plans like, uh, the Insight 2050 study, and understanding that if there really is gonna be a million more people that move to central Ohio, Whitehall is uniquely positioned to take advantage of a lot of that growth. Um, and the only way that we were gonna be able to take advantage of it was beci- was by becoming more dense. We don't have, you know, uh, townships or farmland that we can annex. Um, so all the growth that we're gonna have to accommodate for, um, we're gonna have to do that by going up. And so, uh, after we purchased, uh, the, what kn- was known as the Commons at Royal Landing apartment complex the mayor referenced, um, the community really embraced that purchase, that acquisition, um, for a variety of reasons, one being, you know, our division of police the year before we bought the complex, um, averaged going to the complex 2.3 times a day every day. Um, and so removing blight, um, from the community, the community really embraced. We then spent 12 months talking to leaders about, um, what density looked like, why multifamily wasn't a bad word. Um, 'cause I'm sure you guys hear in suburbs, um, the, the former notion of, well, the only people who rent apartments are people who can't afford to buy a house, and it's those people, so to speak, who rent apartments, and that's not the market today. Um, lots of people choose apartment living.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff They choose to be in dense, walkable, urban environments. Um, and so we spent 12 months working with our leaders so that they understood what those kind of principles meant, and then we went through an exhaustive RFQ process, and ultimately selected Continental Real Estate and Frank Kass, um, to lead the redevelopment here. And the overwhelming reception that we got was of acceptance, of excitement. Um, I think we've actually gotten more criticism on how long it's taken from concept to construction, rather than what the concept was.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff Um, people are really excited about what this mixed-use project will be. Um, and it really is, you know, finding a, a higher and better use for now what is 25 acres at Broad and Hamilton. So it's a really exciting time, um, and residents and businesses and stakeholders and investors have really responded favorably.
Brent Warren When you say you, you spent all this time working with your, the leaders in the community, do you mean your s- this is, like, city council? Or-
Zach Woodruff So it's-
Brent Warren ... who is this that you're s-
Zach Woodruff It, it, it's stakeholders of all sizes and shapes and people, and so it's city council, it's department heads, it's, um, members of civic organizations. It's going and talking to the senior citizens club about why multifamily isn't something you need to be scared of. Um, it is talking to business leaders and our chamber of commerce and getting them excited about what this potential is. Um, we... One of the benefits of working, um, in 5.2 square miles, uh, is that, uh, we've all met. Uh, and so- ... you know, when you go to Kroger, you run across seven people who are either volunteering, have kids in sports, or that you see at church. And so, you know, that is a built-in advantage, um, that we utilize to really help, um, educate folks on, you know, why, you know, why we did a, a, a $50 million mixed-use project rather than single-family homes.
Brent Warren Mm.
Zach Woodruff Because originally, when you talk to people about, "What should we do with these 18 acres," the response we got was, "Single-family homes."
Brent Warren Yeah.
Zach Woodruff Single-family homes at the southwest corner of Broad and Hamilton probably isn't the best place, and you can't get that many anyway, so it, that wasn't gonna work. So, you know, we, we listen to the public, to our residents, but then we also have to make sure we're educating them on why, if we're not doing single-family homes, why that wouldn't work, and here's really a vision coming from the mayor. Here's what we do think based on data and evidence and studies that w- will work.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. When we've talked to developers in other communities, like in Dublin, Upper Arlington-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Brent Warren ... they're building, uh, mixed-use projects, and a lot of the demand for those products are actually current residents of those communities-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Brent Warren ... who maybe they're looking to sell their house-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Brent Warren ... and move to an apartment. Have you found that to be the case here as well?
Kim Maggard Yes.
Brent Warren Yeah.
Kim Maggard We've had lots of interest, verbally, face-to-face interest, with residents saying, "I'm going to really look at that to consider moving, because my house is too big, my yard is too big, and frankly, I'm more interested in more simplified living, where I could possibly just walk a few doors away to a restaurant, I have a public park right there, and I believe that I'm ready for a change." So we have had lots of interest from our residents.
Zach Woodruff The other thing I would say is one of the things that make White- makes Whitehall unique is that, uh, in 2017, uh, we had 33,000 people who worked in Whitehall. Um, we have a population of, uh, just over 19,000. Um, but only 3% of Whitehall residents actually work in the city.
Brent Warren Hmm.
Zach Woodruff So What that means is that there's a tremendous amount of employees that work in Whitehall that don't live here.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff And all of the data suggests that specifically young people wanna live closer to where they work.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff And so we also view this as not only helping our current residents, you know, either downsize or change their living, uh, status or, or th- what kind of house or home they live in, um, but we also view it as an attraction tool, um, and a workforce issue for a lot of our employers. DSCC, uh, as an example, DLA, the largest employer on the base, um, Defense Logistics Agency, um, it ha- it every year through attrition hires 150 new employees. By and large, those people are 26 to 33, married, no kids. I don't have the housing today that is attractive for those young professionals.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff And so the development like Norton Crossing, uh, creates an inventory that I otherwise don't have. Um, it will also be the closest mixed use urban, uh, redevelopment to occur near job hubs like Mount Carmel East Hospital and the airport. Um, so those 33,000 people I mentioned earlier do not include D- do not include Mount Carmel-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... don't include L Brands, doesn't- don't include the h- the airport.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff And so there's a tremendous amount of people who work right around here, and their options for this kind of new development just don't exist.
Brent Warren So Norton Crossing is under construction now. What is the timeline? When are we gonna see people moving in to that project?
Zach Woodruff So, uh, what we're hearing from Continental is that they believe that they'll be able to start accepting residents moving in late summer of next year.
Brent Warren Okay.
Zach Woodruff Um, and so again, as the mayor mentioned, phase one, uh, has kicked off. Um, that features 360 upscale residential units, the public park, um, the clubhouse, the fitness center, as well as one restaurant, and then we're currently working with Continental on office users and other retail.
Brent Warren Okay. And then moving across that intersection, there's another potentially enormous project that this is also land that's in c- controlled by the city of Whi- Whitehall, correct?
Kim Maggard Yes.
Brent Warren Um-
Kim Maggard Yes, it is
Brent Warren ... do you wanna give us the overview of, of that project also?
Kim Maggard Sure. We're also looking, uh, for Woodcliff, uh, formerly condominiums, to become a multi-use development as well. Now, on that site, you actually have the northern p- back portion that overlooks the park, Whitehall Community Park. So we're looking at definitely apartments, possibly condos, and we want to actually put in an affordable, uh, living component, uh, unit in this development. At my State of the City, I said for the next five years, I'd like for anything that we do to have 20% affordable living component, if it's apartments or any type of housing. And also, we are looking at mobility. We know that mobility is a real problem in central Ohio. For instance, we have too many people on our roads, infrastructure's crumbling, and even with the hike in the gas tax, it's gonna continue to crumble until we get different modes of transportation in central Ohio. So we wanna put in a mobility hub as part of this multi-use development. For examples, we could have, you know, Lyft cars or rent cars. We could have definitely some micro transportation. We've, uh, had conversations with COTA, you know, scooters, things like that, to where people can feel, "I don't have to have a car to get where I need to go. I can use these other forms of transportation and still save money and still get to my job in a reasonable amount of time." So we're looking for this to be transformative, uh, on the east side of, you know, Columbus.
Tim Fulton The Confluence Cast is sponsored by the Mid Ohio Regional Planning Commission, or MORPC, featuring stories about local and regional partners that envision and embrace innovative directions in economic prosperity, transportation, sustainability, and an inclusive central Ohio. MORPC's transformative programming, innovative services, and public policy initiatives are designed to promote and support the vitality and growth of the region. For more information, please visit morpc.org.
Brent Warren And would this be the same scenario where you would look for a developer to partner with or multiple developers? Or how, how would that go forward?
Kim Maggard It, it definitely could be multiple developers-
Brent Warren Mm-hmm
Kim Maggard ... considering what we're, you know, we're thinking about.
Zach Woodruff Right. I think that's, I think that's right. I... The site is about 35 acres there on the northeast corner. Um, and so, you know, our initial concept plan, you know, calls for a million square feet of construction, you know, upwards of 700 residential units and maybe a quarter million square feet of commercial office, um, again, with acres of public green space integrated. Um, and so with a project of that size, um, we've internally had some conversations about do we divide that up into two or three different RFQs and select different developers, um, so it's not one project dependent on one developer. Um, uh, but you know, we're still really working to evaluate that. Um, we believe demolition, uh, of the site, uh, po- potentially could occur, um, in August and be completed by the end of the year, um, with then RFQ, RFQs, uh, being ready to be submitted out to the, to the development world third quarter of this year.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff Selection of the beginning of next year.
Brent Warren So like the Norton Crossing site, this site's It's not like this was an empty site. There was already housing on it. Um, can you just briefly take me through the history of that? 'Cause I know that was a pretty drawn-out process, right?
Zach Woodruff Yeah. So, um, the Woodcliff condominiums, uh, the Woodcliff condominium unit owners have actually been in litigation with the city for 12 years.
Brent Warren Wow.
Zach Woodruff Um, so this is the longest consecutively running, uh, environmental court case in environ- Franklin County's environmental history. Um, and so we were... We, we received a, a court order last August, um, after the owners voted, uh, overwhelmingly, uh, to accept, uh, the city's offer. Um, and so we took possession in February. Um, as leases expired, uh, we did not renew any of them, so we're working on, um... You know, the, the complex will be vacant by the end of May. Um, and so, um, we've worked with, um, HomePort and Impact, um, and the Urban League-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... um, to, uh, help those residents find other housing or to become aware of resources that they may be qualified for, um, to help ease that transition. Um, but again, you know, it was declared, um, through the courts a, a public nuisance twice. Um, we've had four different judges, four receivers, multiple runs up through the court of appeals. Um, it's been a very long journey. Um, and you know, what the city's ultimate goal there was to, to have the nuisance abated, um, whether that was the, uh, uh, underserved water issues or sanitary problems out there. I mean, the, the lists are very long and would take up an entirely different podcast. Um, but, uh, you know-
Brent Warren And these... Just give me an idea. How old are these structures there?
Zach Woodruff So these are, these are 1950s duplexes-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... um, that had, um, 317 units, 153 buildings, and 126 different owners. Um, I, I'm the landlord, so I know the numbers.
Kim Maggard But-
Brent Warren Did, did, did anyone tell you you were crazy to try and, uh-
Zach Woodruff Well, so-
Brent Warren ... do this project?
Zach Woodruff So the first 10 years was just the city work- trying to get the receivers, trying to get the owners to fix the problems-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... to abate the nuisance. Ultimately, they were unable to do so, and so the city said, "Okay, this is never going to get fixed, so here's what we can offer to just purchase it. There is no solution." And in fact, the, the court order from Judge Hawkins in the environmental court actually spells it out pretty plainly that, you know, that there is no other... History has proven that there is no other viable solution that will permanently abate the nuisance conditions at the condos. Um, this was the only solution where, um, the nuisance would be abated. So I mean, what we have found since we became owner is that there were a lot of folks living in, in what I would consider and anyone, uh, objectively would consider substandard housing. The mayor mentioned affordable housing a minute ago. You know, we want to ensure that everyone in Whitehall is living in safe, secure housing, and when you have a complex that's been declared a nuisance multiple times and, uh... You know, we have lots of pictures that sh- that document just how unsanitary the, the apartments there were. Um, you know, we're, we're pleased that we're able to do something else with that property.
Brent Warren You both mentioned affordable housing moving forward, and there's a commitment to have that be a part of this project. And I know there are a couple of HomePort projects-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Brent Warren ... that are in the works now, right, that are in Whitehall? Is that correct?
Kim Maggard Yes, yes. Uh, we have on the corner of Edna and Hamilton, we have senior, uh, living apartments from HomePort, and we're getting ready to build 35, uh, additional units right behind there. And on the other side, on the north side, we plan on building workforce housing, uh, with... you know, through, through HomePort. So we're very excited about that. We've been very happy with our relationship and our partnership with HomePort. We find them to be quality, quality, uh, builders, developers, and just really good people to, to work with. They care about their mission, and they care about who they're serving, so I think that's very important. And actually, it fits in great with the philso- philosophy of Whitehall, is that we're here to make the world a better place by making sure that Whitehall is a better place.
Zach Woodruff A- and I, and I would wanna mention here too, we do have... You know, the mayor mentions affordability moving forward.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff But the city has also participated, uh, actively or indirectly on the creation of over 200 affordable housing units in the city over the last 10 years, and the project the mayor just mentioned would bring another 140 workforce and affordable housing units online as well. Um, so we have really been, I believe, at the forefront of ensuring that affordability. Whitehall has, as a percentage, uh, fewer affordable housing units than Gahanna or Reynoldsburg.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff What we have is a lot of naturally occurring affordable housing of last resort. And so, you know, it's been our goal to transition a lot of that housing. Uh, so I mentioned Woodcliff earlier. There were, there are people at Woodcliff who were paying as much as 950 a month to live in substandard housing. So how do we transition that instead to safe, secure, affordable, or workforce housing so that, you know, you can lower their costs of housing, which we know is escalating in Central Ohio? But we've really been, um, a leader in, in that area, and we'll continue to, to do so as we ensure that we're looking at that issue in all of our developments. We wanna integrate... Uh, we wanna disperse, rather, um, affordable and workforce housing throughout the community so there isn't a concentration of it at one corner and one development, but really disperse it throughout the entire city.
Brent Warren And have you, um- With these affordable housing projects, the newer ones, have you run into any opposition from... I mean, we cover this a lot too, and a lot of communities there's the NIMBYism, "not in my backyard." You hear that a lot about affordable housing. Have you run into that in Whitehall?
Kim Maggard No, and the reason for that is we definitely educated, you know, our citizens on the importance of safe and secure, uh, housing, that affordable housing does not need to be housing of last resort for people. And our, you know, look at our demographics. The, the, the residents who live in Whitehall understand the need for affordable housing, and in fact, when, uh, we've done a lot of senior citizen affordable housing, and residents will say, "Well, what about us?" So they're looking forward to this. They're looking forward to the opportunity to live in, uh, better housing than what they currently are, or they're looking also at ways in which if they own a home, that we have programs here in Whitehall that will help them actually fix up their home.
Brent Warren Hmm.
Kim Maggard And so we have those programs as well. So we're not getting really that much, you know, pushback for this. I think our citizens understand what the real need is.
Brent Warren Hmm.
Zach Woodruff Well, and to the point, I mean, the mayor and I a- and a lot of her department heads spend a lot of time, again, engaging the community and educating them. We, we spent, we've spent multiple years working with our city leaders and, and working with community members so that they understand the issue. I knew that we had really turned a, a page when we were doing the Homeport rezoning for workforce housing and for an additional component of affordable housing, and not a single question was about why are we doing affordable housing or why would we do workforce. It was all about site development. It was all about ingress and egress and what color block or what color brick and where are the windows and how do you get around and what's the landscaping and what kind of trees. And so I knew-
Brent Warren You have some city planners now that you're-
Zach Woodruff Well, right.
Kim Maggard That's right.
Zach Woodruff And so, uh, my point being that's how I knew as a community as a whole we had really turned that corner-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... um, because those were the questions, not, "Why are we doing that?" "Not in my backyard." "Oh, yes, we need affordable housing, but it'd be great if it was over there or not here," or, "Why does it have to be in Whitehall?" Um, we have, we have been very fortunate that the, the folks that we've been able to talk to understand the issue to the mayor's point, or, um, they at least will under- they'll, they'll hear us out on why the need is, is what it is, and you know, we have a lot of good facts to back it up. Like I said, there are, there's fewer actual affordable housing units in Whitehall than there are in Gahanna and Reynoldsburg, and when you say that to people, they are a bit shocked, and then they understand why we need to, why, why it's a workforce issue.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You talk about naturally occurring affordable housing, which if I understand that correctly, it's just sort of housing that ages. Is that right? And-
Zach Woodruff Housing that ages without investment.
Brent Warren Right. Uh, and these two big developments at that intersection of Broad and Hamilton both are replacing that kind of housing.
Kim Maggard Absolutely.
Brent Warren Correct? And but is that a concern? Is there more of that kind of housing in Whitehall? Do you, is there more development in the future that's gonna replace this sort of aging housing, or are there other places that you see the development going?
Kim Maggard I would like to say that we have to look, uh, to the future. We cannot have our city just stay the same, and yes, there are other apartment communities that are older and may need help later or may need, you know, you know, some, some help in making sure that they can be upgraded. So I'm not going to say that we're out to knock down all apartment communities and build new. That's not what we're here for. But what we're here for is to make sure that we give the best services to our residents and make sure that people have safe and secure homes, and unfortunately in Whitehall, we do have aging structures that have not been upkept. So we're really trying to work hard and h- build those relationships with the landlords in order that we can possibly have viable plans, or we can help them in some way in possibly fixing up their property.
Zach Woodruff Mm-hmm. And I think that's exactly right. I, I think one of the things that we've just recently undertaken is a citywide comprehensive development blueprint plan, um, in partnership with OHM Advisors. Um, and part of that plan kind of lays out action items on how to address other aging apartment complexes or, you know, the aging, uh, type of our home construction, um, and putting in action items and, and goals and those kind of things that we can address those in the long term. If you look at a lot of our apartment complexes, much like the two that we purchased, um, they are typically two or fourplex on large acres, um, and you... that's not the density you would try to accomplish today. I think our goal in redeveloping these 75 acres at Broad and Hamilton is to help establish the market, where then the private sector, instead of the city doing it, um, the private sector then sees the, the economics work, uh, and then, then they take the lead and redevelop properties on their own.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. Um, I was gonna ask because we've also covered a lot the corridor concepts with MORPC, and ULI is, is talking about sort of densifying corridors, and as I mentioned, you have two pretty significant corridors running right through your community.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Brent Warren And a lot of that is what we're seeing in other places, in some places, is, um, sort of older retail properties being redeveloped into mixed-use properties.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Brent Warren Is that something you see as the future in Whitehall also?
Kim Maggard We are very open to that because we realize that mixed-use development is working. It's working, and people like it. So why wouldn't we look at that? It's beneficial to the developer, and it's beneficial to the community. It just makes sense.
Zach Woodruff Absolutely. I, I don't, I mean, I don't think I could've said it better myself. I mean, as I mentioned at the very beginning, the only way that we're gonna continue to, to grow and to accommodate the 118 people a day that increased central house population is to go up. So where we have, you know, single store, single story retail, I think it only makes sense that those are gonna have to become multi-story mixed use.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. Um, I, uh, I've always thought it was interesting, Town & Country, that's one of the first developments of its kind, really, like in the country, some people say.
Kim Maggard Yes.
Brent Warren Um, do you see a future for that development? Are there plans in the works to sort of refresh that or, or what?
Zach Woodruff So I can tell you that, I mean, we're having conversations with Casto, you know, on a weekly basis about a variety of projects. Um, and certainly I think Casto, you know, there is this, um, uh, we are still working to g- make the economics work. So if you're Casto and you're Town & Country that has a pretty low vacancy rate, um, the idea of emptying it, de-leasing the building, tearing it down and rebuilding is something that the economics have to work. And so we're working to, to try to figure out how do we make that e- how do we make those economics work? How do we ensure, uh, that it's a project that will be viable for the long term, be sustainable? Um, and so you certainly, I think, I, I think everyone i- in the development world, um, certainly understands that big box retail and inline retail are certainly, uh, having challenges, uh, currently. And, uh, if you juxtapose that to the areas that are doing, you know, more of the mixed use, walkable, urban, pedestrian kind of oriented development, those seem to be thriving. Um, and so I don't think Whitehall will be any different than, you know, some of those other communities that you have visited, you know, whether it be in Columbus or in Upper Arlington. Um, you know, it was just re- you know, reported last week, you know, uh, Upper Arlington's, uh, you know, being frustrated with Kroger and waiting for the next big b- you know, that big box retail, and do we zone so that we don't allow big box retail? I mean, what are... You know, uh, I have, um... We're, we're fortunate, uh, one of the other members of our development team, uh, ha- is a urban planner by trade, um, with, from Ohio State, and so he has a master's in urban planning, and I think every time we, we look at a big box, I think he gets a nervous tick. So, um, or when you talk about parking-
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm
Zach Woodruff ... um, that isn't structured or underground, he, he gets, you know, a twitch. So, um, you know, we understand that Town & Country currently, um, is working, um, but how do you position it to take advantage of the changing market, um, in a way that then can last for the next 50 years? 'Cause you're right, I mean, Town & Country was the first inline shopping center, at least east of the Mississippi. Um, and so it certainly, you know, put Whitehall on the map when it was built, and so we w- we certainly are trying to work with Casto to understand how we can reposition Town & Country to put Whitehall and Casto back on the map again.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm. You mentioned all these other communities that are building these kind of mixed use developments. Do you see, um, the competition kind of heating up? I mean, there's a limited number of developers that can build these things, and a lot of places that seem to want them. Um, and we had talked a little bit previously about regional cooperation, and how does this, um... Is there sometimes, do you think, uh, a competition between the different communities, and does that make it harder to get these projects done?
Kim Maggard I don't think so. I think w- what is the driving factor is how unique is this, and what's the deal that I can get on this? So every community's different and has different needs. So you can make those kind of developments. They don't have to be cookie cutter developments. And I think that's why developers like this so much, and that they know that it's not cookie cutter, that they can really put a different spin on these things. They have the ability to do that, and that only helps them in the long run in that they can have a bigger product when, when they try to go for the next development.
Zach Woodruff And if you talk to folks at Columbus 2020 or the Columbus Partnership, I mean, they certainly prescribe to the rising tide lifts all ships.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff If there are additional redevelopments or developments like the one in Norton Crossing, um, that is only going to be helpful from, you know, the attraction of employers, retaining employers, and growing employers.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff Um, and so, you know, obviously Central Ohio is very blessed to have a growing, you know, population-
Kim Maggard Mm
Zach Woodruff ... uh, a low unemployment rate. Um, and so where the, the only place where I would see the competition being, um, or the, there being a, a bit of a competition is in the construction market, um, and the increases we're seeing in construction pricing and, and, you know, I don't know, uh, I, I think that there are more developers who would w- who can do development. I think that the real challenge is, uh, in the finding the skilled trades to be able to actually do the construction. Not necessarily in the developers who, you know, finance it and, and hire the contractors, but more, you know, uh, the, the competition to get the skilled trades, construction crews, uh, you know, ready and queued up and in line. Um, that's the only place where I really see, um, you know, that quote unquote competition. I'm very fortunate as a development practitioner that in Central Ohio, the, the development practitioners at, you know, at the local levels are all very close.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Zach Woodruff Um, and you know, I belong to MOHED, the Mid-Ohio Development Exchange, um, which is a consortium of development practitioners. So it's all the local development directors and staff. And, you know, the mayor is chairperson, uh, for, uh, COME or COMMA, the Central Ohio Mayor and Managers Association. I, uh, the Columbus way really does kinda come out too in the development world too, that, you know, there, is there competition? Uh, not so much in that I can get a project and you can't, but more, um, you know, that rising tide really is lifting all ships.
Brent Warren Mm-hmm.
Kim Maggard Yeah, it's all about manpower. I mean, we have a limited amount of people who, um, have the qualifications in order to do this type of work. So, you know, o- What are the trades gonna do about this? How are they gonna try to attract more people into the trades? Because right now it's so difficult and some projects are being put on hold because they can't get the manpower. And also we're bringing people in from out of state, travelers is what union, unions call them, to come in and, and help. And that's a bit kinda difficult too because everybody's been trained in a different way. And, uh, that could also, you know, have some issues itself. But the real issue is manpower and, uh, qualified manpower. So that's, that's a big issue we're gonna have to deal with. And how do we attract more people into those occupations?
Brent Warren Great. I mean, we've talked a lot about these, um, big development projects. Um, I wondered if we could just close on, you know, a lot of our readers probably aren't too familiar with Whitehall.
Kim Maggard Mm-hmm.
Brent Warren What would you like them to know about your community?
Kim Maggard Well, we're very close to Big Walnut Creek. We have a beautiful park on the east side of Whitehall called Whitehall Community Park, and we're getting ready, uh, we've been doing a lot of, uh, renovations in that park. We're getting ready to do a, um, possibly a canoe launch. So for nature lovers, that's a wonderful place to come. You, you start off high and then you drive down and you go to the bottom part of the park, and it's just beautiful. It's, it's pristine when you go over there. So I'd like for people to know about that. I mean, you have that type of nature in such a urban area, it's almost unheard of. And I think that that's probably a gem that most people don't even know about. I was over there yesterday actually, and I was looking down into the water. It was cl- crystal clear where you could actually see the rocks down, you know, right, right there. And so I, that's one thing I'd really like to, for people to, to know about. Also, the fact that we have some beautiful homes here in Whitehall, older homes on Maplewood and Collingwood that are gorgeous. And if, uh, you know, if you know any flippers who wanna come in and flip a home and get a great price, come to Whitehall because we have a lot of those. And also we have a beautiful stretch of road on Fairway Ave- uh, Boulevard that's gorgeous. So we have some beautiful homes here and, uh, we also, you know, have a great amount of ethnic restaurants that if people want something different, try Whitehall because we have Greek, we have Ethiopian, we have Chinese, we have the gamut. And, uh, come on over 'cause we got good eats.
Brent Warren Great. Well, thank you both for speaking with me today. I really appreciate it.
Kim Maggard You're welcome.
Zach Woodruff Thank you.
Kim Maggard Thank you.
Tim Fulton Thank you for listening to Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on what we discussed today in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of the Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite contractor. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. Our producer is Philip Cogley. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a great week.