Artist Bryan Christopher Moss

Tim Fulton 0:12Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Confluence Cast, presented by Columbus Underground. We are a weekly Columbus-centric podcast focused on the civics, lifestyle, entertainment, and people of our city. I am your host, Tim Fulton. This week, we recorded live at this past weekend's Independence Day Festival. I sat down with the artist Brian Christopher Moss to discuss his background, how he works, why he calls himself the greatest living artist, how we can make Columbus a hub for visual art, and also discuss the new show that's up at the Wexner Center for the Arts. You can get more information on Brian and other things we discuss in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Today's episode is sponsored by Julep, opening in the Short North. You can check out the newly renovated space and bar, uh, coming up this Friday, September 23rd, and sample their craft kitchen menu. Tickets are available for their sneak peak event, again, this Friday, September 23rd, right now at columbusunderground.com. If you are interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us at info@theconfluencecast.com. Enjoy the interview. Sitting down here with Brian Christopher Moss, educator, artist, muralist, Columbus native. We are recording live here at Independence Day 2016, stuck into a corner of a parking lot with a large map- ... that denotes the donk sightings, uh, in and around Columbus, Ohio. Everyone is sort of looking at us. We, we are not sort of amplified to the crowd, so we just look like, uh, sports commentators that no one can hear sort of talking about what's going on. So if at some point we stop and say, "Oh my gosh, look at that crazy man," it's because we're recording live at Independence Day. Brian, how are you?

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:09Doing well. Um, what should we do if we get a inquisitive donker?

Tim Fulton 2:14Someone, someone-

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:15Will we ignore them?

Tim Fulton 2:16Someone asking about donks?

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:17Yeah.

Tim Fulton 2:18Uh, no, we can stop. I can edit that out. Uh, it's fine.

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:21That's okay. I think we should ignore them or chastise them for asking why we're on a podcast.

Tim Fulton 2:25Right. We should say, "Look at the sign. We are podcasting right now."

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:30And we should ask for their ID and dox them.

Tim Fulton 2:32Right. Brian, you're a Columbus guy. Can you first of all just give a little background? Most I, I imagine don't know your full backstory. Uh, where did you grow up?

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:40I grew up on the south side of Columbus, um, where based upon the donks map, uh, there's a lot of donks down there.

Tim Fulton 2:47Uh-huh.

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:48So yeah, grew up on the south side of Columbus. Uh, born in '81, 1981. And, um, so yeah, born in, uh, south side of Columbus, Ohio.

Tim Fulton 2:57Columbus City Schools.

Bryan Christopher Moss 2:58Yeah, Columbus City Schools. Um, if you're familiar with, uh, Stewart Elementary, it's in German Village. I lived south of there. So grew up in an impoverished environment. Uh, this is the '80s, so stereotypical what things you would see on TV, which consist of like, you know, dilapidated homes, uh, drugs, infested communities, those kinda things. Um, I had a solid family, you know, mom, dad. I got four sisters, a half-brother.

Tim Fulton 3:27Was the, the, the, the drug, and I imagine what comes along with it, the crime, was that something that you were exposed to a lot?

Bryan Christopher Moss 3:34Exposed to visually, but wasn't affected by just because it's, I'm a kid. And none- my family didn't involve themselves in that, so.

Tim Fulton 3:42Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 3:42They had a, a healthy ed- education. My father has his master's in English. Um, it's just due to hard times, you know, kinda thing.

Tim Fulton 3:49Okay. Now what, what did your father do?

Bryan Christopher Moss 3:52Um, he was at that point a mechanic. Um, but when he graduated school, he was a teacher, an English professor, I think at the Indian- at Indiana University, whatever their s- state school is.

Tim Fulton 4:05Okay. Uh, and your mother?

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:07Uh, just a house- you know, housewife kinda thing.

Tim Fulton 4:10Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:10You know, she had part-time jobs here and there.

Tim Fulton 4:12Brothers and sisters?

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:13Mm-hmm. Yep. I got four of a- four sisters, so I'm the middle, and then I have a half-brother, um, from my mother's previous marriage. So he's white, which is interesting because I'm biracial.

Tim Fulton 4:23It should be noted that you are biracial.

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:24Yeah.

Tim Fulton 4:25Uh, you can't see that.

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:27Right.

Tim Fulton 4:27And so how did you get into visual art?

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:30Actually, that's a pretty... That's a good question, as they would say. When I started kindergarten, uh, Stewart Elementary, across the street from there is a s- is a recreation center called Schiller Park. So my mother started sending us over there. My sisters, I would s- actually, my siblings, they were already going there. And then as part of the process when I went to kindergarten, we also, I went al- also went over there with my sisters. So I, um-

Tim Fulton 4:58And this is a standard rec center. It has-

Bryan Christopher Moss 4:59Yeah, nothing special

Tim Fulton 5:00... gym- gymnasium-

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:01Yeah, so I was-

Tim Fulton 5:02... activity rooms.

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:02Yeah, so at this point it's just doing gymnastics and art. Um, but by first grade I was fully committed to doing art, so I was just doing art class, art class, art class.

Tim Fulton 5:11By first grade?

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:12Oh, yeah.

Tim Fulton 5:12Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:12Mm-hmm. I knew exactly what I was gonna do when I got older. Um, and so I would go after school, so that's around 3:15, 3:30, and I would stay there till, like, 6:00, 6:30. So three hours, three and a half hours a day, times five, times, uh, first grade or kindergarten, transitioning into fifth grade. So that's a lot of art.

Tim Fulton 5:36Absolutely.

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:37Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 5:38Uh, and so talk about sort of y- transitioning that into y- you know, what did you do post-high school, and sort of where-

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:46Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 5:46... I, I know the backstory, so I'm sort of teeing it up for you.

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:49Right.

Tim Fulton 5:50What was your sorta situation once you were, uh, you know, an adult or, you know, a teenager in high school?

Bryan Christopher Moss 5:57Well, it was pretty interesting because it was pretty dynamic. Once I got out of high school there was an option, you know, going to CCAD. And initially, when I enrolled, um, this is through the transition of ha- my parents having an eviction on their home.

Tim Fulton 6:11Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 6:11So I was essentially homeless.

Tim Fulton 6:13Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 6:14I, I was couch surfing, living on my sister's couch, enrolled in school, and then that's when I found out it wasn't really for me. You know, it was like, not that this-

Tim Fulton 6:23How do you mean? How do you mean that it wasn't really for you?

Bryan Christopher Moss 6:25This, this, it wasn't necessarily that CCAD wasn't, um, like I couldn't take anything away from it. It was more the socialization. So I felt like a adult amongst kids, and that's not a knock towards, you know, people that come from the country or from the suburbs. But that being said, it was pretty obvious that this was a, um, I had a lot more experience than they had.

Tim Fulton 6:48Are you saying that you were already a working artist at that point?

Bryan Christopher Moss 6:51Right.

Tim Fulton 6:52Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 6:52So, yeah, so what happened is that once I realized that that wasn't the direction I was gonna go, I was already doing commercial work by that point. So what happened is that somebody saw my work out from LA, and then that's when I started getting contracts to do storyboards for pilots. Um, that's where it started. So I started, um, making a pretty good income at it probably by, I'd say, 20, you know.

Tim Fulton 7:20Okay. And you had not, uh, did you enroll in CCAD immediately after high school?

Bryan Christopher Moss 7:25Um, it was like a year. There was like a year gap there.

Tim Fulton 7:27You had a gap year.

Bryan Christopher Moss 7:28Yeah. Mm-hmm. Where-

Tim Fulton 7:29That's what the young white girls say.

Bryan Christopher Moss 7:31Yeah. Is that, is that what they call it?

Tim Fulton 7:32"I took a gap year and I traveled."

Bryan Christopher Moss 7:36Yeah. Yeah, my traveling was trying to find a place to live.

Tim Fulton 7:39So you arrived at CCAD sort of, let, I'm gonna put words in your mouth.

Bryan Christopher Moss 7:42No, that's fine.

Tim Fulton 7:43You sort, you know, disco- uh, I have had friends who were working artists who, who had been told multiple times that they sort of needed to professionalize their education background if they ever wanted to be something more than an outsider artist. And so they go to CCAD, and they discover that they're forced to sort of take this survey of classes, which is not bad. I think if you're-

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:05Right

Tim Fulton 8:05... uh, in visual arts, certainly you need to have at least an understanding and an appreciation of, of at least the primary visual arts.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:13Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 8:14I mean, the foundational.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:15The foundation.

Tim Fulton 8:15Yeah, the foundation. But that's a lot, one, of time. That's an entire year-

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:20Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 8:20... of your schooling. And two, it's not cheap. Um, even though, uh, you know, student loans may cover your education, they may even cover your housing, for someone who is transitioning from being essentially homeless, uh, which, you know, you can, y- y- you can put a nice coat of paint on it and say that you were couch surfing, but you were homeless.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:41Right. Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 8:41Um, coming from that environment and being expected to purchase watercolors.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:46Right.

Tim Fulton 8:46Purchase, uh, nice, uh, notebooks.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:50Yeah.

Tim Fulton 8:50Purchase everything else that you have to purchase in order to pursue, uh, visual arts that frankly you're not very interested in. Purchasing, you know, that big ass block of clay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:58Right.

Tim Fulton 8:59That sort of thing.

Bryan Christopher Moss 8:59Well, yeah, it's funny 'cause there's this very specific story to that. I remember when they said, "Oh, you have to get the foundation kit." And I'm like, "Okay." And you see the bill for it, and-

Tim Fulton 9:10How, how much is the foundation kit?

Bryan Christopher Moss 9:121,200.

Tim Fulton 9:12Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 9:13And I was like, "Well, I don't have $1,200," obviously. So I go to the, I think it was like the financial office or something like that. And you know, they're dealing with, like, hundreds of kids like me, like blind and naive and-

Tim Fulton 9:26Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 9:26... you know. And so they're like, I'm like, "I can't buy this kit. How do I do this?" And they gave you, like, a voucher for, like, it was, like, half of it or something like that.

Tim Fulton 9:35Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 9:35So that was, like, all the money I owed CCAD 'cause I, like, left, got the voucher. And I had a credit card at the time. That's how I was, like, living.

Tim Fulton 9:42So you got the kit.

Bryan Christopher Moss 9:44Yeah, I bought the kit. Um, and then I, right after that, I'm like, okay, if I, if it was a struggle for me to get this kit and to, like, do this, and it was, like, sh- stressing me out, and I was like, I have no attachment or association, or, like, there was no kinship with the fellow students. I'm like, "No, this is, like, the worst for de- worst decision for me ever."

Tim Fulton 10:04Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:04So I said, "Okay, uh, let's rethink this."

Tim Fulton 10:07Right. Maybe this isn't the path that I wanna be going down.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:10Exactly.

Tim Fulton 10:11And so talk about sort of your professional life since then. You, you, you continued to do, uh, commission work-

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:18Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 10:18... for primarily storyboards.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:20Yeah. That was where the, the big, where the main money was coming in. So I was doing storyboards, and they would submit the stuff to, like, um, uh, all the networks. You know, they had a inroad 'cause they were working with agents. So I was just basically a subcontractor.

Tim Fulton 10:34Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:35Um, so it's actually a really cool thing because, um, working in that position, um, even though you're not getting the credit that you would if something got made, you're still part of a team that values you.

Tim Fulton 10:47Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:47So, you know, there's nothing wrong with that.

Tim Fulton 10:49And you're working remotely.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:51Yeah. I'm spending LA money in Columbus, so

Tim Fulton 10:56Nice

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:56... I was able to live, right?

Tim Fulton 10:57Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 10:58So then that's when I realized, like, this whole, like, idea of, like, going to school to be an artist, but, like I said, I was doing, I'm the exception. I was doing this since, like, six, seven. Um, so I kind of had a different s- rule set or skill set that applied. That being said, um, the other kind of work I was doing at the time was for albums, promotions for theaters, um, basically anything, um, commercial 'cause that was when I was more illustr- illustration heavy.

Tim Fulton 11:27And so for, for those that are not aware, for those that sort of, like, view, like, drawings and, and, and graphic design and stuff as sort of, like, oh, that's art-

Bryan Christopher Moss 11:36Right

Tim Fulton 11:36... there's a big difference between, uh, visual art/fine art and commercial art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 11:41Mm-hmm. Little A and big A.

Tim Fulton 11:43Okay. That, that's an excellent way to put it. So what, what, what is the difference?

Bryan Christopher Moss 11:49Okay.

Tim Fulton 11:49For those that aren't aware.

Bryan Christopher Moss 11:50Okay. So j- we'll just-

Tim Fulton 11:51We're, we're bringing it down to basics here.

Bryan Christopher Moss 11:53Okay. Cool. No worries. Yeah. So it's, like, little A, 'cause it's like, I respect them both as big As. Let's get that clear.

Tim Fulton 12:00Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:00Like, this isn't my view. I'm speaking completely, like, academic and, like, collective decision, uh, definitions, you know? Okay. So little A would be, like, your tattoo artists- Your comic book artist. Comic book artists are in this transition of where it's starting to be respected by academia.

Tim Fulton 12:18Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:18But still, it's still a little A.

Tim Fulton 12:19Well, and especially in Columbus, given the cartoon research library.

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:22Right. It's a nice vehicle.

Tim Fulton 12:23Yeah.

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:24Um, your, like, uh, Kinko-style print guys. You know, um, your graffiti guys. That's all little A. Big A is, you know, museums, galleries, and it's very specific galleries, not even... We're talking blue chip galleries, you know? So we're talking galleries that have world, worldwide reps.

Tim Fulton 12:49Right, well, galleries that have representation at art fairs like Art Basel and-

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:53Exactly. Exactly

Tim Fulton 12:54... uh, not necessarily. Some of the galleries here maybe.

Bryan Christopher Moss 12:58Yeah, I mean-

Tim Fulton 12:59But the, the, the, the big A art in Columbus is the stuff that frankly, a lot of times isn't being produced in Columbus, it's, uh, but, but the work that you would see at places like the Wexner Center or the Museum of Art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 13:12Right, exactly. And like, your, your, um, region-

Tim Fulton 13:14Or some of the, the, the public art that we have.

Bryan Christopher Moss 13:17Right, yeah. Yeah, completely. And it's cool because, like, things are opening up now, but yeah. Th- so based upon these definitions and ideas, you know, your... It's specifically your blue chip galleries is when you transition to your big A.

Tim Fulton 13:29Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 13:29Museums. Um, I think we'll be... There's a rumor we'll be having a blue chip gallery here soon. I don't wanna speak too much about that.

Tim Fulton 13:35Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 13:36But there's a rumor about that.

Tim Fulton 13:38Like a satellite location? Or...

Bryan Christopher Moss 13:40Uh, sort of. Actually, it'll be based out of here, um, and based upon someone who has a really healthy collection. We'll just say that.

Tim Fulton 13:46Give it, given that, we're gonna take a quick break, uh, and get a word from our sponsor. Today's episode is sponsored by Julep, opening in the Short North. You can check out this new bar in a newly renovated space this Friday, September 23rd, and sample their craft kitchen menu. Tickets are available for this sneak peek right now at columbusunderground.com. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us at info@theconfluencecast.com. Back to the interview. We're back with Brian Christopher Moss, uh, visual artist, muralist, educator. Um, Brian, so we, we have talked through sort of your, your childhood, both early and late.

Bryan Christopher Moss 14:33Uh-huh.

Tim Fulton 14:33Uh, and the difference between, uh, commercial art and fine art, what you refer to as the, the big A and little A. Um, talk about sort of the work that you've done in adulthood and sort of how you view your s- your identity as an artist in Columbus.

Bryan Christopher Moss 14:49Okay.

Tim Fulton 14:49Like you've worked as a docent at the Columbus Museum of Art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 14:54Yeah.

Tim Fulton 14:55Uh-

Bryan Christopher Moss 14:55I'm doing that now.

Tim Fulton 14:56Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 14:56And I also currently am, um, serving a residency at Wexner Center-

Tim Fulton 15:02Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 15:02... through the Pages program.

Tim Fulton 15:03Okay. Talk about the Pages program for those that aren't familiar.

Bryan Christopher Moss 15:07Okay. Yeah, the Pages program is a literacy based program. Uh, Dion Custer, uh, it's her program. She's been... This will be the 11th year. Um, and what it is, it's an outreach program for literacy, so the schools. And so Dion picks, selects 10 schools through application, and then I, as the artist, and then there's a few other ones, there's a writer and then there's a poet. We'll go out into the community, into these schools, and then create dialogues and narratives based upon our disciplines. So in this case, uh, Wexner has an exhibition, Black Mountain College.

Tim Fulton 15:44Which we will talk about in a bit.

Bryan Christopher Moss 15:46Mm-hmm. And that is what I'll be talking to the students about, and then we'll be, I'll be facilitating activities. Well, actually, art-

Tim Fulton 15:54And so-

Bryan Christopher Moss 15:55... not activities.

Tim Fulton 15:55Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 15:55There's a big difference.

Tim Fulton 15:56And so what you, what, what happens is they bring in, uh, these artists/educators who, uh, sort of present ideas to students, and then have the students respond through writing.

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:07Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 16:08Whether that be talking about how the visual art makes them feel, or I imagine with the poet it's a lot more direct, of doing a sort of, you know, uh, poetry, uh, exercise. Um, and, uh, it's a fantastic program. They actually produce, uh, a compendium of the students' works, uh, that I think is available somewhere.

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:29You can-

Tim Fulton 16:29Uh, if, if it-

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:30You have access to a site

Tim Fulton 16:31... if it is, uh, it'll be linked in the show notes for this episode. Uh, talk about sort of, you know, the, the, the choices that you've made in order to remain a working artist in Columbus.

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:42The biggest thing is probably not to join a group.

Tim Fulton 16:45Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:46Um, and I don't say that in a negative sense, because there's a lot of groups here.

Tim Fulton 16:50So w-

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:50Right? I don't want them to-

Tim Fulton 16:52And, and f-

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:52... hang me.

Tim Fulton 16:52Right. Well, for those that aren't aware, what are some of the groups that you... Like 400 West Rich.

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:57Yeah, which is where we're at now.

Tim Fulton 16:58Uh, which is where-

Bryan Christopher Moss 16:59Rough

Tim Fulton 16:59... where we're at r- right this moment. Which isn't necessarily a group, but it is-

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:03Yeah, it's like a collective

Tim Fulton 17:04... but it is an art, a, a, a-

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:05Is that fair to say?

Tim Fulton 17:05Well, it's a building that houses a whole bunch of artist studios.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:09Right.

Tim Fulton 17:09Um, so not necessarily a collective.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:12Mm.

Tim Fulton 17:12But, uh, Couchfire Collective, which used to be housed at Junction View Studios, is certainly considered a group.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:18Right.

Tim Fulton 17:18Um, uh, the Ohio Art League is certainly considered a group.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:23Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 17:24Um, w- why, why do you say that, that you've decided to not align yourself with one individual group?

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:31Uh, because what happens is, like, it's, it's a great thing to be part of a community, which I feel I'm a part of. What happens is that you have a couple things. You have something called group think.

Tim Fulton 17:41Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:41Which, as an artist and an, an, an individual, is probably the worst thing for you. And the reason for that is because if we're in a room of 10 people and we collectively agree to do a show based upon something, it's always gonna be a compromise.

Tim Fulton 17:55Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 17:55So when there's no direct leader, um, then that's when it becomes... And then what if you don't agree with the leader, right?

Tim Fulton 18:01Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:01So that's where that becomes toxic, dealing with group think. Then furthermore, um, what happens is that there's less vulnerability, there's protection, and so you're not thinking-

Tim Fulton 18:16You're not being as daring as you could be.

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:18Right. Yeah, you definitely have to ... It's like being an artist is kind of like having your back to the wall constantly, and there's only one way out, you know? Um, it's like your last fight always. And so you have to be able to be nimble, fluid, and being able to adapt to situations quickly. So if I have a location to go to constantly where I'm being validated anywhere from two people to 100 people, then that's potentially a problem-

Tim Fulton 18:43Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:43... as an artist.

Tim Fulton 18:45Okay. One thing that you've said to me in the past has sort of been, uh, um, "Know your value-

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:50Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 18:50... and value your agency."

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:52Yeah.

Tim Fulton 18:53I think that that totally speak, I think the valuing your agency, meaning-

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:57Mm-hmm

Tim Fulton 18:57... independence-

Bryan Christopher Moss 18:58Right

Tim Fulton 18:58... speaks to not joining a group and sort of being defined by, "I'm Brian Christopher Moss from XYZ group." Um, talk about sort of, uh, uh, knowing your value though.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:09With that aspect, um, because a lot of times people undersell themselves, so we can speak literally first.

Tim Fulton 19:18Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:19Um, and the thing about that is that you have to be smart about pricing your art, showing your art, these kind of things. Um, so a good example of this was that there was a cat show, um-

Tim Fulton 19:33Literally meow, cat.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:35Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 19:35Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:35Here at 400. Um, it raised a lot of money. It was really cool, very productive for the community. Um, I'm kind of priced out of that market, but I was invited by Angela Jan to show there.

Tim Fulton 19:45Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:45And she's a dear friend of mine, so I'm like, "Sure, of course. Cool." Um, but what I have to do then at that point is readjust, so I have to draw smaller. So it's literally like we're speaking literally about value now, like-

Tim Fulton 19:56Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:56... cost, okay?

Tim Fulton 19:57Well, and square-

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:58So-

Tim Fulton 19:58... square inches of art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 19:59Yes, yes.

Tim Fulton 20:00Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 20:00So that is, I'm being very literal right now. Now let's jump to, like, the symbolic, right? Knowing your value is like having a confidence and understanding that you're not gonna do work for free, one.

Tim Fulton 20:11Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 20:12Um, and two, to value what you do. So you have to understand that what you're creating is unique to you. And it's corny, right? Because it's like, "Oh, yes, we're all unique." Star Dust, Star of Snowflakes.

Tim Fulton 20:23We're, we're all pretty snowflakes and/or butterflies.

Bryan Christopher Moss 20:26Yeah. So, but it's actually true. So what you offer and what you bring to the table is very specific. So and then you have to ... And what I mean by value also is you have to produce good work. You have to meet the public where they're at. So you just can't produce work that's underwhelming or not interesting and expect the public to, like, respect you.

Tim Fulton 20:45So-

Bryan Christopher Moss 20:45Like, it doesn't work. That, just because you can make art doesn't mean that you should have value.

Tim Fulton 20:50I'm always interested in sort of the nuts and the bolts and the economics of things.

Bryan Christopher Moss 20:53Right.

Tim Fulton 20:53So how do you, do you sort of price your work for, uh, you know, this is what, this is what the market/economy will bear, w- or do you price it in such a way that you're like, "Okay, for, if I work a 40-hour week that is simply producing work, or if I work a, a, a week where I'm doing 20 hours of actually producing work, I'm doing 10 hours of marketing, and then 10 hours of, like, you know, stretching canvases and, like, putting the finishing touches on things," which is a, uh, also production, but it's not generating art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 21:29Right.

Tim Fulton 21:29Do you price your work in such a way of like, "Okay, I know I can make three works with that amount of time, and this is how much I need to live"?

Bryan Christopher Moss 21:38Right. Um, I used to-

Tim Fulton 21:39And then, of course, there's the, the fees on top of it. It's like, you know, what you're giving to a show, uh, what you're giving to a gallery. Is that how you price it, or is it simply how much could I get?

Bryan Christopher Moss 21:49Right. No, I used to price it that way, um, by the hour. You know, like a-

Tim Fulton 21:53Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 21:53... my time, you know? Um, but if you're selling art, you know, let's go back to that blue chip gallery.

Tim Fulton 22:01Yeah.

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:01If you already have a gallery that's representing you and everything's gonna be sold out, that's fine and dandy, but when you're only selling a piece every week or couple, you know, and it fluctuates, you can't-

Tim Fulton 22:12Now are, are you represented?

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:14No, I do not have anyone representing me. I would love to.

Tim Fulton 22:16Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:17But my, but the thing is-

Tim Fulton 22:19My name, my name's Tim Fulton. It's nice to meet you.

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:20Pleasure to meet you too. But the, the issue, just as a side note real quick, uh, with galleries and stuff like that, usually I prefer to be invited just because, like, you don't wanna go putting yourself in the position, going back to valuing yourself, your agency.

Tim Fulton 22:34Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:34It's like-

Tim Fulton 22:34Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:35... if you're begging, begging, begging, then you give that person power, the gallery, and the gallery may not have your best interests or they may not promote you, and you might be in a contract to where you're stuck.

Tim Fulton 22:45Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:45So that's a very bad position to be in. But it works out for a lot of people, um, very well based upon what the direction they're going-

Tim Fulton 22:53Well, I think-

Bryan Christopher Moss 22:53... because they're not multiple disciplinary.

Tim Fulton 22:55Right. Well, and you'd like to assume that a gallery wouldn't sign you up, lock you into a contract, and then not be working for your best interest, but that may very well happen.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:04Oh, yeah. No, no, it happens all the time because, um, like, the, the reality of, like, the art market is that, um, in any city there's a, a glass ceiling of, of co- of what somebody will pay.

Tim Fulton 23:14Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:14Okay? And that is what I learned really quickly. So-

Tim Fulton 23:18So give me an example of that.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:20Okay. So I'm priced out. I have to paint smaller now.

Tim Fulton 23:22Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:23So when I paint larger, it gets ... And we're not talking really large. We're talking three to four feet.

Tim Fulton 23:27Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:28It, that turns into, like, a 6 to $8,000 painting.

Tim Fulton 23:31Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:31Um, there's n- there's no market independently for myself that supports that, so I have to paint smaller, um, the wall.

Tim Fulton 23:38Well, and there's not, I mean, there are buyers at that level here, but they're not-

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:43They're going through galleries.

Tim Fulton 23:44They're going through galleries, and there's probably two dozen.

Bryan Christopher Moss 23:47And this is the other thing. This is something I learned really quickly, and I was told through this by this guy who is, I respect to this name. Um, his name's Brian Maloney. He said, "Okay, let's change it to a housing market. If I was a millionaire, why would I buy houses i- in a ghetto, or, like, w- you know, $5,000 houses-

Tim Fulton 24:08Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:09... when I can buy a house in New Albany and make more money?"

Tim Fulton 24:13Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:13So it's like, why would I buy, um, local-

Tim Fulton 24:16So compare that to art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:17Yeah, yeah.

Tim Fulton 24:18Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:18It's, it's, it's a very b- basic ... Because people aren't buying art because they like it. They're buying it as an investment.

Tim Fulton 24:23Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:23You know, so you have to deal with these realities really quickly. Um

Tim Fulton 24:26Do you think that's true? I mean, I know I, I, as sort of a passive collector own, you know, anywhere from, uh, works that I've spent maybe $40 on, and I have a couple of pieces that I've spent under 1,000, but I value those works very-

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:42Right

Tim Fulton 24:42... m- higher, frankly, than the pieces I spent $40 on.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:45Right. But that's goes back, back to that glass ceiling. There's that market that can only support a certain, you know, amount. In your case, it's $1,000.

Tim Fulton 24:54Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:55Right?

Tim Fulton 24:55Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 24:55So, um, which is fine. There's nothing wrong with that. But you, going back to that idea of, like, why I stopped doing by the hour is because, um, I got quicker.

Tim Fulton 25:06Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:06So the f- my speed equal, equals my quality, so I can produce a show in a couple weeks that has the same quality as somebody that could produce in a year.

Tim Fulton 25:17Well, and that has a very easy, uh, you can equate that very easily to sort of economics in that, uh, y- you're a worker who w- when you're in a job for a longer period of time, you become more efficient.

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:30Right, exactly.

Tim Fulton 25:31And that doesn't mean that that person should be paid-

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:33Right

Tim Fulton 25:33... the same amount-

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:34Right Yeah

Tim Fulton 25:35... for their hour of work. It means that they should be paid for the amount that they're producing.

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:39Here, here's a great, like, saying they always say. It's like somebody will produce work, and they'll, and they'll go, "I'm supposed to pay you $6,000 for this painting you did in an hour?" It's like, "Yeah, an hour and 35 years."

Tim Fulton 25:52Exactly. Exactly.

Bryan Christopher Moss 25:53Fuck off at that point, man. You know? So yeah, with that being said, um, now I just work, um, because I still, I came from a blue collar background, so it's one of those things. My dad's a mechanic, right?

Tim Fulton 26:05Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 26:05So it's one of those things where it's like art, I, I still view it as a pre-Renaissance time. Like, well, even during the Renaissance, it's a trade.

Tim Fulton 26:13Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 26:13I view art as a trade. I don't view art, I don't romanticize it. I don't think of it as like, "Oh, I'm going to paint a painting 'cause I'm inspired by the weather." I mean, I, I am. I'm inspired by nature, but that doesn't, I can put that in my brain and save it, and then go to the studio and paint 12 hours.

Tim Fulton 26:29So you have done commercial work, which, uh, a- as you've stated is, is sort of small A work. How do you view your identi- identity as an artist now? And sort of teeing it up, w- where do you view yourself in 10 years?

Bryan Christopher Moss 26:44It's, it's actually interesting, 'cause this art game is actually very taxing. And because when you get a job, and you're known for, like, speed or consistency, people want it quickly, you know? They want it turned out really fast, and if you have other projects going on. So honestly, in 10 years, um, I see myself painting for myself and not selling any artwork. I plan on retiring. Now, is that the reality? I don't know, but that's where I plan on being. So-

Tim Fulton 27:11How, how would you get there?

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:13Um, take the money I'm making now-

Tim Fulton 27:14Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:15... and investing it in stocks.

Tim Fulton 27:16So give me, gi- give me some-

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:17I'm gonna open a coffee shop.

Tim Fulton 27:19Like, gi- given your, you know, blue collar background, again, being homeless at some point, like, you are not at all obligated to answer this question specifically, but you're doing pretty well.

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:29Right. Yeah, yeah, I do well.

Tim Fulton 27:31Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:31Yeah. I, I, but I'm conditioned, though. So I grew up missing meals, not having electricity. I remember at one point we didn't have gas for seven months. And so, um-

Tim Fulton 27:41Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:42... I can li- I'm comfortable living below my means. So I have a very modest lifestyle. I got rid of my car. I ride a bike. You know, those kinda things.

Tim Fulton 27:48And so you're doing that in order to sort of be able to get to a point where you are effectively retired.

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:54Right.

Tim Fulton 27:55And you are able to simply paint for yourself.

Bryan Christopher Moss 27:58Right. And I'll still do shows and contribute to the community.

Tim Fulton 28:01Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 28:01And I'll still do educational work. Um-

Tim Fulton 28:03Which does pay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 28:04Yeah, yeah, all that pays. So, um, none of that's an issue, but it's more of, like, because painting wise, what I wanna paint and express isn't selling.

Tim Fulton 28:14Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 28:14Plain and simple.

Tim Fulton 28:15Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 28:15Um, which is large scale, you know, documenting things through an abstract. But I'll, I always say, like, I paint like a traditionalist, you know, going all the w- I just follow the, the routine that started back in the Renaissance, and I'm painting like that, but in 2016. So I'm a very, like, you know, straightforward painter. I can paint for myself. I can paint for somebody. I can connect with people through my paintings. I can paint symbolically, all these things. But the idea that I want to do, the culmination of all this, is larger scale paintings that I can dictate and I know exactly what they're gonna be. And if somebody wants to show them, cool. If not, then that's okay. You know? They'll-

Tim Fulton 28:57Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 28:57... just write about it when I'm dead.

Tim Fulton 28:59You're truly working for yourself. Uh, we're gonna take a quick break. W- again, we're here with Brian Christopher Moss. We'll be back to talk about Brian's inspiration and also the current show that's up at the Wexner Center for the Arts. Today's episode is sponsored by Julep, opening in the Short North. You can check out this new bar in a newly renovated space this Friday, September 23rd, and sample their craft kitchen menu. Tickets are available for this sneak peak right now at columbusunderground.com. If you're interested in sponsoring the Confluence Cast, get in touch with us at info@theconfluencecast.com. Back to the interview. I'm back here with Brian Christopher Moss, uh, artist, educator, muralist. Brian, talk about some of your inspiration, inspirations, motivators.

Bryan Christopher Moss 29:54Um, a lot of that derived when I was younger. So, you know, when you're growing up in, like, a home with a lot of people and you only have a couple bedrooms, last thing you wanna do is be inside and around all that.

Tim Fulton 30:07Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:07So definitely outside, um, talking to people. Nature is a big part of that. Um, the balance. You know, New York City is not a good balance for me.

Tim Fulton 30:17Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:17Um, it's too much city, too much concrete, not enough green, you know? So there's definitely a balance to that.

Tim Fulton 30:22Well, is that it, or is it... I mean, my experience there has been sort of it's, it's, um, it's difficult to live. You know, it's difficult to get groceries home because you gotta do it every day.

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:32Right. Yeah. Yeah. I remember one time I was in New York City, and, like, here in Columbus, there's a connotation. If you're, like, pushing a cart with, like, groceries- That's like, "You're not doing well."

Tim Fulton 30:42Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:43I saw it there. I was like, it was normal. I was like, hold on. Wait, the socialization is down to this point where-

Tim Fulton 30:47Well, every-

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:48Jesus

Tim Fulton 30:48... everybody's got one of those carts right by the front door- ... that sort of folds up, and it seems like the perfect size cart to put-

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:55Right, right

Tim Fulton 30:55... like four 12-packs of PBR in.

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:58Right, right.

Tim Fulton 30:58Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 30:58Dude, it was completely, like, bewildering for me. I said, "Man, I can't do this," but I'm not a snob. I just, like, grew up in Columbus, I guess, where like when you're pushing a cart, it's symbolic of not doing well.

Tim Fulton 31:09Right. You've got that, you've got that Midwest mentality.

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:12Right, right, right, right. So, um-

Tim Fulton 31:14What about artists specifically?

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:16Oh, man. Um, so I traveled to Spain, so saw all of Goya's work. That was life-changing. Um, surprisingly, you know, that, who I really liked a lot when I got to, uh, Paris was, uh, Le- Leonardo da Vinci.

Tim Fulton 31:30Really?

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:30Yeah. Uh, da Vinci's work actually stunned me. I was like, "Holy shit, this guy's actually really fucking amazing."

Tim Fulton 31:36Well, y- uh, yeah.

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:37And that's, like, so generic, you know what I mean? But-

Tim Fulton 31:39There's a reason why they refer to him as a master

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:41... the, the glow, yeah, the, the glow is real, when they talk about his paints and glow. It's true.

Tim Fulton 31:46Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:47Um, but locally, uh, well, he's recognized n- um, internationally, but, uh, Jeff Smith.

Tim Fulton 31:54Uh-huh.

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:54Paul Pope. The, uh, this is more of a comic book thing, right?

Tim Fulton 31:57Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 31:58Um, uh, and then there's a lot of illustrators that I'm really into. Um, let's see here. George Pratt, um, Bill Sienkiewicz. I can run off names for days, but, uh, these guys are, like, typically, like, uh, technicians. What they do when they create work, it's they're using traditional techniques, and it's traditional method, executing really high-quality work. Um, and they usually work in a l- lot of different media. Um, another local... But going back to local, I would say the, there's two specific key people you can, uh, align me with, which is, uh, Pheoris West and Aminah Robinson.

Tim Fulton 32:39Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 32:39Uh, with Pheoris West, he's a professor at, uh, was a professor at OSU. He's not doing too well right now, so, but he's getting better, so that's a good thing. Um, uh, he went to Yale, so think of, like, a Black man teaching at OSU who went to Yale when he was, like, I think, like, 22, something insane. Um, so this guy's just, like, a genius. Also, um, but he's not local. He's from Philadelphia, I think, but he has been here since, I think, the '80s. Anyway, the other one, Aminah Robinson, um, I'm, was obviously her work was pervasive growing up. I met her when I started at the museum, so, like, in 2000, 2001, sorry. And she was one of the first people I met. And for being, and at that point, she had a show in Chile. Um, she was at the Brooklyn Museum.

Tim Fulton 33:24Mm-hmm.

Bryan Christopher Moss 33:25Um, so she was already well into doing her thing, you know? And the cool thing about Aminah is that, um, but this was before she got that Genius Award, so she was-

Tim Fulton 33:33Again, Aminah Robinson was a recipient of the MacArthur Genius Grant.

Bryan Christopher Moss 33:37Mm-hmm. And so she, yeah, sorry to shorthand that, everybody.

Tim Fulton 33:41No, just-

Bryan Christopher Moss 33:41I assume everyone knows

Tim Fulton 33:41... just for clarity.

Bryan Christopher Moss 33:42Yeah. So Aminah, I remember I was working on the dock at the museum. At this point I was just working in security.

Tim Fulton 33:48Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 33:48Um, this was like, I wasn't even part-time. I was working, like, I think eight hours a week, and she came in with, uh, Carol Genshaft. And she was like, "Oh," and I, I'd even, I'd never seen her before, is obviously was like. I said, uh, she was like, "Oh, you draw." I said, "Yeah, yeah. I draw comics." She's like, "Oh, I love comics." And I was like, "Really?" And she was like, "Yeah, I always l- I, I j- just always like reading them, looking at them." And I was, like, taken back because when I found out it was Aminah and she liked comics, I'm like, "Oh, this is kind of awesome," you know? Because you wouldn't assume that.

Tim Fulton 34:19Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 34:19Um, and like I said, I couldn't, it was all coming to me at one time. Like, oh, this is Aminah Robinson. Oh, she likes my work, and she likes comics. So anyway-

Tim Fulton 34:26One of the, also one of the few nationally recognized Columbus-based artists.

Bryan Christopher Moss 34:30Yeah, exactly. Her, Elijah Pierce are two of the few.

Tim Fulton 34:35Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 34:35So she, um, would come in all the time and obviously critique my work. Conversation and critique, that's what we call it now.

Tim Fulton 34:43Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 34:43And she would also give me feedback. And I think one of the most exciting things she ever told me personally was that when I was, I saw her exhibition that she had at the museum, and I said, "Oh, I really like this character. I would love to put him in a comic." She said, "You could put any of your characters in my com- I mean, any of my characters in your comics." I said, "That would like," I felt, like, warm, like she gave me, like, a hug. Like a, like the, the art cosign it.

Tim Fulton 35:09Well, an ar- artistic gift, right?

Bryan Christopher Moss 35:10Yeah, exactly. So it was one of those things where I was like, you know, to the moon. So it was really cool.

Tim Fulton 35:14Yeah. What else? Uh, I mean, do you, getting back to sort of your path, do you view your work as sort of working to get to a, a, a place of stature that Aminah had?

Bryan Christopher Moss 35:27Uh, uh, well, it's kind of like, uh, standing on the shoulders of giants.

Tim Fulton 35:30Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 35:30And, um, I don't mean this arrogantly, but, and I can speak further about this, but I, I think I'm the greatest artist alive, and what I mean by that is, like, you gotta speak these things to, into existence and have confidence, you know?

Tim Fulton 35:41Uh-huh.

Bryan Christopher Moss 35:41So it's not a matter of if I become the greatest artist or not. It's just a matter that, like, it creates a drive and a ambition. So my goal-

Tim Fulton 35:49Well, and a responsibility.

Bryan Christopher Moss 35:50Yeah, and a responsibility. Beautiful. Thank you. Appreciate that, Tim. And so it's one of those things where it's like there's a path that's... 'Cause I did this series of comics for The Alive. It was six. And I documented all the artists in Columbus, um, six different artists. And what I gathered is that what a lot of them did, they left, and this would just be for travel. So it might be six months, um, to a year, and then they come back, and then they bring these new techniques and the things they learned into the community.

Tim Fulton 36:17Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:18Okay? Um, Aminah, when she went to- She go to Jerusalem?

Tim Fulton 36:23Yes.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:23She... Yeah. And so when she traveled-

Tim Fulton 36:25She referred to it as her pilgrimage.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:27Yes. Came back and so, um, you know, Theoris traveled to Ghana, go over to, uh, France 'cause he can speak, um, French, and then he brings this information back as an artist. Um, so I know this is a path that's already, um, ingrained into Columbus, and so that's my trajectory. You use-

Tim Fulton 36:45And I'm sorry, when you were documenting these artists, these were, um, not current day artists, these were, uh, past artists that had-

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:53Yeah

Tim Fulton 36:53... some Columbus relationship.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:54Yeah.

Tim Fulton 36:54Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:54They're all local artists. Um, so the last-

Tim Fulton 36:57And we will link this series if I can find it.

Bryan Christopher Moss 36:59Oh, yeah. It's up.

Tim Fulton 37:00Uh, in the, in the show notes for the episode as well.

Bryan Christopher Moss 37:03Yeah. And, um, the cool thing about that is what I learned is that there's the blueprint to that. Um, so Columbus becomes this hub, a satellite, um, because it's affordable to live here. So you can travel, um, being-

Tim Fulton 37:16You can afford to travel.

Bryan Christopher Moss 37:16Yes. Thank you. As a full-time artist and pull this information and bring it back, and it gives you an authority because, uh, what's... Because it's like going back to that unique snowflake. Like, you are bringing something back, you are bringing something new, and these are the things that when you live in a... You know, 'cause we're, we're, we're, we're pretty much... You know, Columbus is pretty specific, you know? Like, we have our thing going on. So it's important to do that at this point, to bring stuff back, bring information back, bring techniques back, bring artists in, these kind of things.

Tim Fulton 37:50What, uh, what would you like to see Columbus do from a, from a sort of a civic standpoint? What would you like to see Columbus do in order to encourage more artists here?

Bryan Christopher Moss 37:59Um-

Tim Fulton 38:00Or are we doing some pretty good shit now?

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:02Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we're actually... I think it's really healthy. I think it's amazing. So, like, what 400's doing is really cool. Um, what... Well, basically anyone who has a... It's funny 'cause y- people might, it might chap their ass or something what I said earlier about group think, but the... It's kind of... So I'm kind of contradicting myself, but the fact that we have these things, these collectives where people can go to, because those are necessary for startup artists. They... You know, if you're 20 and you wanna do art, you should go over here to 400-

Tim Fulton 38:29Well, and you need to-

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:30... or go to any of these other locations, you know?

Tim Fulton 38:31To, to be somebody starting out, you need, you need guidance.

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:35Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Tim Fulton 38:35You know? And that, that group think is, uh, while, while may not be good for an established artist, um, it, it helps to foster the growth of an individual artist.

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:44Oh, completely. Yeah, yeah. And, like, I always refer people to-

Tim Fulton 38:48I mean, there, there... I- throughout art history, there are schools of artistic thought-

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:52Yeah

Tim Fulton 38:52... that, you know, so and so is from this school of thought, and-

Bryan Christopher Moss 38:55Mm-hmm. Yeah, you can trace it back. You can take it back all the way.

Tim Fulton 38:58Hopefully I'm able to use this as a little bit of a transition. You've been doing some educating on, uh, the current exhibition that's up at the Wexner Center, Leap Before You Look, uh, Black Mountain College. That-

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:10Ti- Tim, by the way, you're good because, like, you remember, like, the long titles. I just say Black Mountain. Like, you're so good at this.

Tim Fulton 39:16Thank you very much. A- and I'd like to point out, no one can see, but I don't even have it...

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:20No, I can-

Tim Fulton 39:20I couldn't do the years

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:21... I can vouch.

Tim Fulton 39:22I, I couldn't do the years of, of what the retrospective is. But talk about, um, Look Before You Leap and, uh, Black Mountain College and what-

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:29Mm

Tim Fulton 39:29... what that exhibition is, uh, and what it, uh, what a, uh, a, a viewer can expect from it.

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:37So it's a collection of work from Ba- Black Mountain College. And what Black Mountain College is, it's the first interdisciplinary school. I so hate that word.

Tim Fulton 39:50Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:50But go ahead and say it for me, Tim.

Tim Fulton 39:52Uh, it's the first interdisciplinary-

Bryan Christopher Moss 39:53Yeah. Thank you ... school. And so, um, with art being what it was known for, it also still had things like your classic, you know, math, science, all these kind of things, right? Um, the interesting thing is that when the Bauhaus school ended, um, '33 because of the war and everything ramping up over in Germany-

Tim Fulton 40:14Uh-huh

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:14... um, one specific person, Josef Albers, um, was invited to start teaching at Black Mountain. And what that did-

Tim Fulton 40:24Asheville, North Carolina.

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:25Mm-hmm. And the important things about, um, Albers and his wife, Anni, the important thing of what... 'Cause when he first came he couldn't sp- speak English, so his-

Tim Fulton 40:33Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:33... wife was doing all the translation. And the beauty about what he brought was y- he's bringing that Bauhaus tradition, right? Now, if you think about this time, '33, so we have Rothko just starting out, we have the abstract expressionists, so this is America just getting its footing.

Tim Fulton 40:50Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:50Okay?

Tim Fulton 40:50In, in contemporary art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:51Yeah.

Tim Fulton 40:52Well, frankly, if you-

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:53For us to-

Tim Fulton 40:54... if you define contemporary art-

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:55We came out of the-

Tim Fulton 40:55... the way it's supposed to be, it wasn't-

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:57This is us c-

Tim Fulton 40:57... even contemporary yet.

Bryan Christopher Moss 40:58Yeah, this is us coming out of the caves at this point in the art world.

Tim Fulton 41:02Right. Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:03So, um, and what would happen is-

Tim Fulton 41:06By the way, we could only do it by, uh, transplanting people here.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:10Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Tim Fulton 41:11In order to generate art.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:12Exactly. Or us sending our finest abroad and bringing them back, you know-

Tim Fulton 41:17Right

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:17... and claiming them.

Tim Fulton 41:17Which speaks to what you were s- talking about before too, though.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:20Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, but that doesn't mean Columbus is coming out of the caves. We're well established. We're, we're good. So the exhibition is a collection from the school from '33, I wanna say, and it closed in '56. I apologize if that's inconsistent, but once again-

Tim Fulton 41:39Incorrect, you mean.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:41Yeah.

Tim Fulton 41:41And I'm looking it up right this moment.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:42Thank you. So with this, um, exhibition-

Tim Fulton 41:471933 to 1957.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:49Oh, I was a year off.

Tim Fulton 41:50Yeah, that's-

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:50Okay, that's not bad

Tim Fulton 41:51... pretty darn good, I think.

Bryan Christopher Moss 41:52Yeah, yeah, 'cause you gotta remember, I, I don't... The reason I don't write things down is because I have to, I have to absorb so much information, I train myself to literally memorize everything.

Tim Fulton 42:01Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 42:02So, um, but I have an emotional attachment to these things. So anyway, um, the exhibition, you'll see Albers, Anni, and then as you go through the exhibition, uh, you'll see collections. You'll, you'll, you'll have one, two, two galleries of the collection from, um, all the artists, and it was also, um, a peda- a pedagogy method, which is, like, the relationships between the teachers and the students-

Tim Fulton 42:29Okay

Bryan Christopher Moss 42:29... um, where, uh, you... They both learn from each other, okay? And you'll see this in the work. So Albers isn't an authority. Um, you might see a painting by Jacob Lawrence and that's held in the same standard even though-

Tim Fulton 42:44Well, because it's simply the sort of, I would almost think of it as a lineage of this, th- this person taught this person, this person begot this person.

Bryan Christopher Moss 42:53Yeah.

Tim Fulton 42:53And sort of this is how, uh, I think it's interesting. I haven't, frankly, I haven't seen the show yet, but I always think it's interesting to look at a master and a student and then that student becoming a master and who that person taught.

Bryan Christopher Moss 43:06Right.

Tim Fulton 43:06And sort of the evolution of the work and you, and from what you're saying, that's what you can see in the show.

Bryan Christopher Moss 43:11Right. Yeah. Um, and with that, um, at the end of the exhibition, you have a, it's really cool because you have, uh, a stage and it has, um, a performance, you know, a video, and they actually will be having performances there with a grand piano.

Tim Fulton 43:30Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 43:30So it's like not in the traditional sense of a Wexner exhibition that you're familiar with where everything's like wall to wall with art or statues.

Tim Fulton 43:37It's just visual art, right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 43:38Yeah. It's like there's other components to this and it kind of merges and marries all of those things together that the school was known for, even though the art is what's promoted.

Tim Fulton 43:49Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 43:50But you'll still see all these throughout.

Tim Fulton 43:50Well, and let's be fair to the Wexner Center in that, uh, full disclosure, I worked at the Wexner Center for five years. I think they do a pretty good job of integrating, uh, other mediums of art, meaning performance art, video art, into exhibitions to sort of draw this line of contemporary art is not just a painting.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:10Right.

Tim Fulton 44:10Or not just a print or a sculpture. Um, and it, it's good to hear that that tradition continues.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:15Mm-hmm.

Tim Fulton 44:16I wanna wrap up with what are, um, other things in Columbus that you think that people should be, uh, consuming in terms of art or in terms of what, what you enjoy consuming?

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:28Gotcha. Um, I enjoy nice long bike rides.

Tim Fulton 44:31Uh-huh.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:32I'm being sincere. And long walks.

Tim Fulton 44:35Ah.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:35I'm being serious. I, I think you should do a lot more of that, everyone.

Tim Fulton 44:38Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:39Outside, that, that sun, that vitamin D thing, really good. So, uh, but also, uh, I like the communal aspect. Like, uh, Columbus is like a big town, small city, they say.

Tim Fulton 44:50Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 44:50Uh, so that town aspect of like walking around, conversing, you know, seeing people, I think that's healthy. I like little, little nooks too. So I like the idea of like the main library being open again, having access to that, and there's this, um-

Tim Fulton 45:04Is the Amina piece back up?

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:06Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 45:06The staircase?

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:07Uh-huh.

Tim Fulton 45:07Great.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:07Yeah. It's, I'm not sure if it's, um, exactly the same structure.

Tim Fulton 45:11Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:11But, you know, it's there.

Tim Fulton 45:12Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:13It's up. Yeah.

Tim Fulton 45:13Okay.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:14Um, so it's one of those kind of things where within the community, just the idea of like what people have to learn is like stop being cynical. And this is another thing too. There's this, um, people are very territorial. They fight over, 'cause you gotta remember, I work for Wexner CCAD in the museum.

Tim Fulton 45:32Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:33Right? So I, I have a pretty-

Tim Fulton 45:34The three competing-

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:36Yeah, the three

Tim Fulton 45:36... contemporary art museums.

Bryan Christopher Moss 45:37Right. So I should be hung, right, at this point? They're like, "What? You traitor, you traitor, you traitor." But the reality of it is, is that y- there's no reason to fight. There's a lot to go around, and what I mean by that is that it's not, there's no reason for the malice in these kind of things because a lot of times people can get like cynical about the art community. But it's like, no, be fortunate that you can ... 'Cause like I said, my friends in New York, they're like having a heist. They're all leaving. You know? They, they're getting the hell out because it's like they can't afford it.

Tim Fulton 46:05Right.

Bryan Christopher Moss 46:05So the money you're making is going to all these other people that don't even care. So like the idea of it being s- that your money being cycled back into the community, even if it's not directly for the arts, recognize that, you know, the idea of this Independence Day Festival and these kind of things help facilitate the art. So it's like to keep it positive is my point.

Tim Fulton 46:24Absolutely.

Bryan Christopher Moss 46:25Right? And I don't mean that in some like hippie way. I'm being like serious. Like, you know, like be positive, enjoy, just enjoy the fact that you can make art because that's what I enjoy.

Tim Fulton 46:34Absolutely.

Bryan Christopher Moss 46:35And I think it shows, hopefully. That's the goal.

Tim Fulton 46:37Yeah.

Bryan Christopher Moss 46:37You know?

Tim Fulton 46:38Uh, you can see more of Brian's art, uh, in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Uh, Brian, thank you so much for your time today.

Bryan Christopher Moss 46:47Thank you for having me, Tim. Appreciate it.

Tim Fulton 46:56Thank you for listening to The Confluence Cast presented by Columbus Underground. Again, you can get more information on Brian's work and the other things we discuss in the show notes for this episode at theconfluencecast.com. Please rate, subscribe, share this episode of The Confluence Cast with your friends, family, contacts, enemies, your favorite artist. We can be reached by email at info@theconfluencecast.com. Our theme music was composed by Benji Robinson. I'm your host, Tim Fulton. Have a good week.